Sump design...

I want to add a sump to my 48G Bowfront for the two primary reasons listed
below. I do not plan to make this a refugum at this time (like the Marc
Levinson has ones on melevsreef.com). I will place the heater, skimmer,
H.O.T. wet/dry filter and canister filter in this sump. The Sump will be
about 10 feet from the tank. Please assist me in getting this done
correctly. The tank is not pre-drilled and does not have an built in
overflow. I prefer to use an external one as you will see below.

Goals
1) Increase the total water volume - to allow for more Fish (I have 100Lbs
live rock and a few corals now)
2) Hide the heater, power-heads, skimmer, and move about 50Lbs of live rock
from display tank to here etc....

Items I am looking to buy:
-all the required PVC and aquarium safe cement
-1 x 40-55G glass tank for sump from LFS
-1 x overflow (rated 600GPH)
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=3642&Ntt=overflow&Ntk=All&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Np=1&N=2004&Nty=1
with all of the sponge, lifter pump, and filter
-1 x Switching Current Water Director (SCWD) thanks to www.melevsreef.com
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=10668&N=2004+113782
-1 x Pump - the Sump will be about 10 feet from the tank. How do I
calculate return rates and overflow rates? I am looking at the pumps below,
are they too strong? Do I go with lower GPH?
-----either QuietOne Model 4000 (1000Gph) -
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=9849&N=2004+113041
-----or Mag Drive Pump 1200 (1200Gph) -
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/Prod_Display.cfm?pcatid=4590&inm=1&N=2004+113041+113565

Am I missing anything?

Thanks for your help!

[bergzy]

first...

what are you keeping in your tank right now?

this is very important as to how you want your sump to compliment your
tank.

is it fish only? reef + fish or strictly reef? if it is reef, what
kind of corals do you have? small stoney, large stoney, soft, clams
(not a coral i know). all these corals require different lighting
intensities as well as different lights. also, each like different
flow rates and patterns.

the over flow rated for 600gph is tricky because you want to run a
1000gph+ pump...even given adjustment for head pressure, unless you are
going straight up from a basement, because you may have excess return
from your pump...which may overwhelm your overflow and cause some sort
of flood...something i have experienced in one way or another over the
many years of keeping wet critters. i would also ditch the sponge
located within the overflow box...if it starts to clog and flow
decreases but your return flow remains the same...guess what? time to
get the wet/dry vac out and start suckin' up water from your
mini-flood.

600gph overflow would be the max i would consider for a 48g tank. it
is my opinion that anything more than 10x tank turnover from the sump
results in decreased efficiency of the sump components such as
skimmers, chillers, etc.

if your return pump is too powerful...instead of dialing it back with a
ball valve...you can T it off and have the excess flow go back into the
sump for a in-sump closed loop.

if you want more in tank flow/circulation...you may want to place some
powerheads or other circulating pumps in there.

as for mag and quiet one pumps...i have and use both for various
utilitarian tasks. here's the skinny on them...quiet ones are more
quiet and mag drives are more durable and the reverse is true for each
as well. you gotta make the choice.

it is somewhat of a mystery to me why you have a wet/dry and live rock
in the same tank. most people that have a wet/dry use them for
fish-only tanks. and if the fish only tanks dont have wet/dry...they
use live rock as their source of biological filtration. if it were my
tank, i would slowly (keyword: slowly) take the bioballs out as they
tend to trap a lot of detritus and are a headache to clean and just go
with live rock.

scwd...not a big fan of them. they are great for their price and
function but your return water needs to be debris free....sometimes
hard in an aquarium...otherwise a pebble may get caught in the gears
and jam the whole thing up. plus, as far as i know...the biggest size
is a 3/4" and i need at least a 1" to 1 1/2"

hope this brief description of your questions help a little.

[BigHaig]

> what are you keeping in your tank right now? this is very important as to
> how you want your sump to compliment your tank.

I have 7 small fish and about 3 easy keep corals. As I said I may want to
add a few more fish, and a few more easy to keep corals (mushrooms etc).

>
> the over flow rated for 600gph is tricky because you want to run a
> 1000gph+ pump...even given adjustment for head pressure, unless you are
> going straight up from a basement, because you may have excess return
> from your pump...which may overwhelm your overflow and cause some sort
> of flood...something I have experienced in one way or another over the
> many years of keeping wet critters. I would also ditch the sponge
> located within the overflow box...if it starts to clog and flow
> decreases but your return flow remains the same...guess what? time to
> get the wet/dry vac out and start suckin' up water from your
> mini-flood.

Should I get the Mag Drive Pump 700 (rated @ 450GPH at 4 feet)? Or the next
step up 800gph at 4 feet? The sump will be on the floor on the left side of
the tank (about 8 feet left), so it is more of a horizontal run, rather than
a vertical run) see www.bighaig.com/sump.gif.

> scwd...not a big fan of them. they are great for their price and
> function but your return water needs to be debris free....sometimes
> hard in an aquarium...otherwise a pebble may get caught in the gears
> and jam the whole thing up. plus, as far as I know...the biggest size
> is a 3/4" and I need at least a 1" to 1 1/2"

I will not get a SCWD. Do you recommend I not use a wavemaker at all? or
do you recommend one?

Please take a look at the design I plan to use www.bighaig.com/sump.gif

Thanks again for your help!

[unclenorm]

Hi BigH,
First of a question, why do you want to use a wet&dry
filter and a canister filter when you have live rock ? both these
filters are good for fresh water but not very suitable for salt water
they are nitrate factorys, nitrates are tolerable in fresh water but
not very good in salt water tanks and bad in reef tanks. the best
filtration you can have in a salt water tank is live rock (1 to 2lbs
per gallon) plus a DSB (deep sand bed 4" to 6") plus a good protein
skimmer and plenty of flow (about 20 times the tank volume per hour or
more for a reef tank) that is all you need. A sump is a good thing to
increase your water volume which makes for a more stable system, but
will not full fill your prime reason more fish, it does not increase
the volume of your display tank which is what determines your fish
population. Power heads are required in your tank to create the
necessary flow. If you use a 600g/hr overflow your return pump must
have a flow of about 550g/hr or so at that head if you want to keep
your water of the floor and in your tank, I would go for the biggest
overflow you can. Most web sites selling pumps will have a table
showing the flow rates at different heads for each pump. good luck.
regards,
unclenorm.

[BigHaig]

ok....I may not be too clear. I DO NOT plan to keep 20 fish in this 48G
display tank. However I do want to MAXIMIZE the amount of fish I can without
allowing for more waste product disrupting the water quality. Hence the sump
to add more water volume to dilute the waste. I basically want to add 2-3
more fish (clown, flame hawkfish & a yellow tang).

I currently have:
-4 Damsels
-1 Blue Tang
-1 Fridmani Pseudochromis
-1 Blue Chromis

As for the wet/dry/canister, you are suggesting I remove them and only leave
the LR,DSB and Protein skimmer?

Thanks again for your help.

"unclenorm" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hi BigH,
> First of a question, why do you want to use a wet&dry
> filter and a canister filter when you have live rock ? both these
> filters are good for fresh water but not very suitable for salt water
> they are nitrate factorys, nitrates are tolerable in fresh water but
> not very good in salt water tanks and bad in reef tanks. the best
> filtration you can have in a salt water tank is live rock (1 to 2lbs
> per gallon) plus a DSB (deep sand bed 4" to 6") plus a good protein
> skimmer and plenty of flow (about 20 times the tank volume per hour or
> more for a reef tank) that is all you need. A sump is a good thing to
> increase your water volume which makes for a more stable system, but
> will not full fill your prime reason more fish, it does not increase
> the volume of your display tank which is what determines your fish
> population. Power heads are required in your tank to create the
> necessary flow. If you use a 600g/hr overflow your return pump must
> have a flow of about 550g/hr or so at that head if you want to keep
> your water of the floor and in your tank, I would go for the biggest
> overflow you can. Most web sites selling pumps will have a table
> showing the flow rates at different heads for each pump. good luck.
> regards,
> unclenorm.
>

[Billy]

"BigHaig" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> As for the wet/dry/canister, you are suggesting I remove them and
> only leave the LR,DSB and Protein skimmer?


Many people use wet\drys or canisters in salt tanks with success. I
ran one myself for a time. I raise an eyebrow at anyone in this
"hobby" that gives absolutes. However, they CAN result in nitrate
problems, once the bacteria in them produces nitrates faster than
your Live Rock can process it.
That said, the LR replaces biological filtration. LR processes
ammonia clear through to denitrifying the nitrates. With a functional
DSB, you're even further from needing any "artificial" biological
filtration.


billy

[Marc Levenson]

Hi Haig,

What you need to concern yourself with is the size of the
drain in your overflow box. At best, a 1" drain tends to
barely handle 600gph. If you have an overflow with two 1"
drains, you have a little better protection against a flood,
even if one tube is clogged by a meandering snail.

Your return pump should be rated for the vertical height,
even though admittedly you have a longer horizontal distance
to travel. I have a feeling a Mag 7 would be under
powered, but at the same time, you only have 48g tank to
care for. At 5x the volume, you'll only need 250gph going
through the sump. So a Mag 7 would work well, as long as
you use 1" plumbing from the pump to the tank.

If you did use the SCWD, I'd suggest a Mag 9.5, because the
device will take away 20% of the flow. Another thing you
have to deal with is that you'd need to use 1.5" plumbing
with a Mag 9.5, and the SCWD has 3/4" fittings. Kind of a
hassle. I think you should just run one line up to the
tank, split it into a Tee or that return manifold you are
considering.

You don't need a wet/dry system to care for those kinds of
fish. Get enough LR in the system (48 to 75lbs) and you'll
be set. Running a canister filter to polish the water
during water changes or while blowing of the LR can help,
but you'll need to take it offline and clean it out within
48 hours to get the accumulated detritus out of the water
before it can break down into nitrates.

Marc


BigHaig wrote:

>>what are you keeping in your tank right now? this is very important as to
>>how you want your sump to compliment your tank.
>
>
> I have 7 small fish and about 3 easy keep corals. As I said I may want to
> add a few more fish, and a few more easy to keep corals (mushrooms etc).
>
>
>>the over flow rated for 600gph is tricky because you want to run a
>>1000gph+ pump...even given adjustment for head pressure, unless you are
>>going straight up from a basement, because you may have excess return
>>from your pump...which may overwhelm your overflow and cause some sort
>>of flood...something I have experienced in one way or another over the
>>many years of keeping wet critters. I would also ditch the sponge
>>located within the overflow box...if it starts to clog and flow
>>decreases but your return flow remains the same...guess what? time to
>>get the wet/dry vac out and start suckin' up water from your
>>mini-flood.
>
>
> Should I get the Mag Drive Pump 700 (rated @ 450GPH at 4 feet)? Or the next
> step up 800gph at 4 feet? The sump will be on the floor on the left side of
> the tank (about 8 feet left), so it is more of a horizontal run, rather than
> a vertical run) see www.bighaig.com/sump.gif.
>
>
>>scwd...not a big fan of them. they are great for their price and
>>function but your return water needs to be debris free....sometimes
>>hard in an aquarium...otherwise a pebble may get caught in the gears
>>and jam the whole thing up. plus, as far as I know...the biggest size
>>is a 3/4" and I need at least a 1" to 1 1/2"
>
>
> I will not get a SCWD. Do you recommend I not use a wavemaker at all? or
> do you recommend one?
>
> Please take a look at the design I plan to use www.bighaig.com/sump.gif
>
> Thanks again for your help!
>
>

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