Shubunkin on hunger strike?

[caroline]

Hi all

Any ideas on how to persuade a shubunkin on hungerstrike to start eating
again. He's wasting away in front of us, and everything we offer him is
ignored.

He really looks terrible, and I wonder if he's gone to far and is too thin
to recover?

Any one any ideas?

We've tried flakes, pellet and even extra scrummy trout starter food...but
he's just not interested.

I've had him nearly 3 years now, and up until now all has been fine.

Oh, and in case anyone asks...the water parameters are fine, so no need to
look there ;o)
Also, the other 4 mature fish in the tank are just fine and feeding well
too!
Most odd ;o(

[Elaine T]

caroline wrote:
> Hi all
>
> Any ideas on how to persuade a shubunkin on hungerstrike to start eating
> again. He's wasting away in front of us, and everything we offer him is
> ignored.
>
> He really looks terrible, and I wonder if he's gone to far and is too thin
> to recover?
>
> Any one any ideas?
>
> We've tried flakes, pellet and even extra scrummy trout starter food...but
> he's just not interested.
>
> I've had him nearly 3 years now, and up until now all has been fine.
>
> Oh, and in case anyone asks...the water parameters are fine, so no need to
> look there ;o)
> Also, the other 4 mature fish in the tank are just fine and feeding well
> too!
> Most odd ;o(
>
>
He's very ill from an internal bacterial or parasitic infection. It
could also be fish TB, which is untreatable. Are there any external
signs like finrot or ulcers to give a clue as to what's wrong?

Given that you've had the fish for so long, I'd guess it's a bacterial
infection or TB. It's preferable to treat in quarantine but if you use
Kanamycin or Maracyn 2, you can usually use those in the display tank
without getting a cycle. Test for ammonia, though. In quarantine, I
try Kanamycin and then Furan 2. If there's no improvement in 3 days,
change 50% of the water, filter over carbon overnight, and switch
antibiotics. If the fish starts to perk up or eat, continue the
antibiotic for 10 days so that you kill off all the bacteria.

If antibiotics don't work, you can try Fluke Tabs for intestinal
parasites (worms shouldn't have suddenly appeared after 3 years of
health unless you added a fish), or metronidazole for hexamita.

HTH

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[caroline]

"Elaine T" wrote
> caroline wrote:
>> Hi all
>>
>> Any ideas on how to persuade a shubunkin on hungerstrike to start eating
>> again. He's wasting away in front of us, and everything we offer him is
>> ignored.
>>
>> He really looks terrible, and I wonder if he's gone to far and is too
>> thin to recover?
>>
>> Any one any ideas?
>>
>> We've tried flakes, pellet and even extra scrummy trout starter
>> food...but he's just not interested.
>>
>> I've had him nearly 3 years now, and up until now all has been fine.
>>
>> Oh, and in case anyone asks...the water parameters are fine, so no need
>> to look there ;o)
>> Also, the other 4 mature fish in the tank are just fine and feeding well
>> too!
>> Most odd ;o(
> He's very ill from an internal bacterial or parasitic infection. It could
> also be fish TB, which is untreatable. Are there any external signs like
> finrot or ulcers to give a clue as to what's wrong?

No obvious external signs, apart from his dreadful thinness and lack of
interest in everything....scales, gills and fins all look fine.

> Given that you've had the fish for so long, I'd guess it's a bacterial
> infection or TB. It's preferable to treat in quarantine but if you use
> Kanamycin or Maracyn 2, you can usually use those in the display tank
> without getting a cycle. Test for ammonia, though. In quarantine, I try
> Kanamycin and then Furan 2. If there's no improvement in 3 days, change
> 50% of the water, filter over carbon overnight, and switch antibiotics.
> If the fish starts to perk up or eat, continue the antibiotic for 10 days
> so that you kill off all the bacteria.

The antibiotics...am I assuming they are just diluted in the water, or am I
meant to feed them? The OH is confused, because the fish is refusing to
eat, so we're curious as to how these might be administered?
Can you tell me the active ingredients for those antibiotics listed, and the
percentage of antibiotic in the dose. There's a chance we can cobble up the
raw ingredients from the lab at the fish farm. The OH suggests he normally
administers ABs to his fish via the feed or by injection. Can you comment on
this?

> If antibiotics don't work, you can try Fluke Tabs for intestinal parasites
> (worms shouldn't have suddenly appeared after 3 years of health unless you
> added a fish), or metronidazole for hexamita

Thanks for your detailed reply Elaine. We're setting him up with his own
tank this evening, somewhere quiet and out of the light. All I have spare
for a second tank is a UF, air stone and air pump. Haven't moved him yet as
I'm worried about the stress....but I guess its kill or cure at this point.

[caroline]

"Elaine T" wrote

> It could also be fish TB, which is untreatable.

We're looking up visceral TB, and wondering how it can only affect 1 fish in
what is effectively a closed tank. No new fish in over a year.

So I guess we have to look at the internal bacterial infection route ?

Do you agree?

[Elaine T]

caroline wrote:
> "Elaine T" wrote
>
>>caroline wrote:
>>
>>>Hi all
>>>
>>>Any ideas on how to persuade a shubunkin on hungerstrike to start eating
>>>again. He's wasting away in front of us, and everything we offer him is
>>>ignored.
>>>
>>>He really looks terrible, and I wonder if he's gone to far and is too
>>>thin to recover?
>>>
>>>Any one any ideas?
>>>
>>>We've tried flakes, pellet and even extra scrummy trout starter
>>>food...but he's just not interested.
>>>
>>>I've had him nearly 3 years now, and up until now all has been fine.
>>>
>>>Oh, and in case anyone asks...the water parameters are fine, so no need
>>>to look there ;o)
>>>Also, the other 4 mature fish in the tank are just fine and feeding well
>>>too!
>>>Most odd ;o(
>>
>>He's very ill from an internal bacterial or parasitic infection. It could
>>also be fish TB, which is untreatable. Are there any external signs like
>>finrot or ulcers to give a clue as to what's wrong?
>
>
> No obvious external signs, apart from his dreadful thinness and lack of
> interest in everything....scales, gills and fins all look fine.
>
>
>>Given that you've had the fish for so long, I'd guess it's a bacterial
>>infection or TB. It's preferable to treat in quarantine but if you use
>>Kanamycin or Maracyn 2, you can usually use those in the display tank
>>without getting a cycle. Test for ammonia, though. In quarantine, I try
>>Kanamycin and then Furan 2. If there's no improvement in 3 days, change
>>50% of the water, filter over carbon overnight, and switch antibiotics.
>>If the fish starts to perk up or eat, continue the antibiotic for 10 days
>>so that you kill off all the bacteria.
>
>
> The antibiotics...am I assuming they are just diluted in the water, or am I
> meant to feed them? The OH is confused, because the fish is refusing to
> eat, so we're curious as to how these might be administered?
> Can you tell me the active ingredients for those antibiotics listed, and the
> percentage of antibiotic in the dose. There's a chance we can cobble up the
> raw ingredients from the lab at the fish farm. The OH suggests he normally
> administers ABs to his fish via the feed or by injection. Can you comment on
> this?
>
>
>>If antibiotics don't work, you can try Fluke Tabs for intestinal parasites
>>(worms shouldn't have suddenly appeared after 3 years of health unless you
>>added a fish), or metronidazole for hexamita
>
>
> Thanks for your detailed reply Elaine. We're setting him up with his own
> tank this evening, somewhere quiet and out of the light. All I have spare
> for a second tank is a UF, air stone and air pump. Haven't moved him yet as
> I'm worried about the stress....but I guess its kill or cure at this point.
>
>
Fish can absorb theraputic amounts of some antibiotics across skin and
gills through the water. It the only route most hobbyists have once the
fish stops eating. For injections, I've pulled out my Manual of Fish
Health and it says to treat 'wasting disease' with sulphafurazole at 0.2
mg/gm fish _plus_ doxycycline hydrochloride or minocycline hydrochloride
at 0.005 mg/gm fish admistered intramuscularly. You may have to repeat
treatments over a 10-14 day period. It says another good antibiotic for
systemic bacterial infections is 10-20 mg/kg oxytetracycline
intraperitoneally.

For bath treatment, kanamycin sulphate is used at 12-13 mg/l in a
continuous bath for 5 days. It should be your first choice. Nifurpinol
(furanace) would be my second choice for a bath, at 0.1-0.2 mg/l for 3-5
days. It is also reasonably well absorbed. The Furan-2 I mentioned is
60 mg nitrofurazone, 25 mg furazolidone, and 2 mg methylene blue per
capsule and you use 1 capsule per 10 gal. The methylene blue is a
fungus preventative in case the fish has open ulcers so you can leave it
out.

Good luck finding something, and by all means try injecting if you can.
It is certainly the best route of administration for your fish at this
point.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Elaine T]

caroline wrote:
> "Elaine T" wrote
>
>
>> It could also be fish TB, which is untreatable.
>
>
> We're looking up visceral TB, and wondering how it can only affect 1 fish in
> what is effectively a closed tank. No new fish in over a year.
>
> So I guess we have to look at the internal bacterial infection route ?
>
> Do you agree?
>
>
I agree on the bacterial infection route, although it is impossible to
rule out TB. The fish is kind of short on symptoms for it, though. As
for one fish contracting it without the others, the others may have some
natural immunity.

You'll notice from my other post that the IM injection cocktail contains
doxycycline or minocycline (marketed as Maracyn-2). The Manual of Fish
Health authors chose those antibiotics because they're good for killing
Mycobacteria. The sulphafurazole is mostly for visceral Nocardia sp., a
more common "clean tank" disease than TB which is thought to enter
through wounds.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[caroline]

"Elaine T" wrote

<in-depth reply snipped>

Many thanks for hunting up all that info Elaine, much appreciated

[caroline]

"Elaine T" wrote
> caroline wrote:

>> We're looking up visceral TB, and wondering how it can only affect 1 fish
>> in what is effectively a closed tank. No new fish in over a year.
>>
>> So I guess we have to look at the internal bacterial infection route ?
>>
>> Do you agree?
>>
>>
> I agree on the bacterial infection route, although it is impossible to
> rule out TB. The fish is kind of short on symptoms for it, though. As
> for one fish contracting it without the others, the others may have some
> natural immunity.
>
> You'll notice from my other post that the IM injection cocktail contains
> doxycycline or minocycline (marketed as Maracyn-2). The Manual of Fish
> Health authors chose those antibiotics because they're good for killing
> Mycobacteria. The sulphafurazole is mostly for visceral Nocardia sp., a
> more common "clean tank" disease than TB which is thought to enter through
> wounds.

Thanks again Elaine ;o)