Sick Mollie

[Gill Passman]

Did the normal tank check including my son's tanks and noticed one of the
mollies was not swimming around as normal....Son checked in depth and found
her at the bottom of the tank curved round herself.

We did a quick water check - ammonia was 0.1, nitrites 0 and pH had risen to
8.5 - normal is 7.5

I caught her and bagged her while deciding what to do....she was physically
sick....

At the moment, with little other option, I have done a 30% water change and
put her into a breeder trap...

I will do another large water change tomorrow to get the ammonia down and
the pH starting up to normal levels. I'm also going to add another
pump/filter with mature filter medium.

The other fish all seem to be very happy. No new fish added for 2 months
plus. 15gall tank with 3 Mollies and 4 Rosy Barbs.

Has anyone got further suggestions (other than monitoring more closely the
water changes done by my son - who is very remourseful)

Gill

[Elaine T]

Gill Passman wrote:
> Did the normal tank check including my son's tanks and noticed one of the
> mollies was not swimming around as normal....Son checked in depth and found
> her at the bottom of the tank curved round herself.
>
> We did a quick water check - ammonia was 0.1, nitrites 0 and pH had risen to
> 8.5 - normal is 7.5
>
> I caught her and bagged her while deciding what to do....she was physically
> sick....
>
> At the moment, with little other option, I have done a 30% water change and
> put her into a breeder trap...
>
> I will do another large water change tomorrow to get the ammonia down and
> the pH starting up to normal levels. I'm also going to add another
> pump/filter with mature filter medium.
>
> The other fish all seem to be very happy. No new fish added for 2 months
> plus. 15gall tank with 3 Mollies and 4 Rosy Barbs.
>
> Has anyone got further suggestions (other than monitoring more closely the
> water changes done by my son - who is very remourseful)
>
> Gill
>
>
Did you add an ammonia detoxifier like AmQuel or Ammo Lock? As you know
0.1 ppm free ammonia is quite toxic at pH 8.5. Water changes and cycled
filter medium sound quite sensible. I'd also add 1 tsp/5 gal salt in
case you get a bit of nitrite as well. The mollies will appreciate some
salt anyway.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Gill Passman]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
m...
> Gill Passman wrote:
> > Did the normal tank check including my son's tanks and noticed one of
the
> > mollies was not swimming around as normal....Son checked in depth and
found
> > her at the bottom of the tank curved round herself.
> >
> > We did a quick water check - ammonia was 0.1, nitrites 0 and pH had
risen to
> > 8.5 - normal is 7.5
> >
> > I caught her and bagged her while deciding what to do....she was
physically
> > sick....
> >
> > At the moment, with little other option, I have done a 30% water change
and
> > put her into a breeder trap...
> >
> > I will do another large water change tomorrow to get the ammonia down
and
> > the pH starting up to normal levels. I'm also going to add another
> > pump/filter with mature filter medium.
> >
> > The other fish all seem to be very happy. No new fish added for 2 months
> > plus. 15gall tank with 3 Mollies and 4 Rosy Barbs.
> >
> > Has anyone got further suggestions (other than monitoring more closely
the
> > water changes done by my son - who is very remourseful)
> >
> > Gill
> >
> >
> Did you add an ammonia detoxifier like AmQuel or Ammo Lock? As you know
> 0.1 ppm free ammonia is quite toxic at pH 8.5. Water changes and cycled
> filter medium sound quite sensible. I'd also add 1 tsp/5 gal salt in
> case you get a bit of nitrite as well. The mollies will appreciate some
> salt anyway.
>
> --
> Elaine T __
> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

Too late - she's gone :-(

Unfortunately I didn't have any ammonia detoxifier.

Now I'll have to concentrate on ensuring that the water quality gets good
again for the rest of the fish. They all look quite happy this morning....

The nitrite reading was 0 but I'm going to closely monitor that. I'm going
to recheck the ammonia and pH this morning and we will do another water chan
ge depending on the readings.

Have no idea what caused the spike. This tank has been stable since late
September last year. The only thing that we did this week was clean the
algae off the front using a magnetic scraper rather than the usual brush.

Thanks for the update Elaine...

[Dick]

On Fri, 20 May 2005 22:53:20 +0100, "Gill Passman"
<gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote:

>Did the normal tank check including my son's tanks and noticed one of the
>mollies was not swimming around as normal....Son checked in depth and found
>her at the bottom of the tank curved round herself.
>
>We did a quick water check - ammonia was 0.1, nitrites 0 and pH had risen to
>8.5 - normal is 7.5
>
>I caught her and bagged her while deciding what to do....she was physically
>sick....
>
>At the moment, with little other option, I have done a 30% water change and
>put her into a breeder trap...
>
>I will do another large water change tomorrow to get the ammonia down and
>the pH starting up to normal levels. I'm also going to add another
>pump/filter with mature filter medium.
>
>The other fish all seem to be very happy. No new fish added for 2 months
>plus. 15gall tank with 3 Mollies and 4 Rosy Barbs.
>
>Has anyone got further suggestions (other than monitoring more closely the
>water changes done by my son - who is very remourseful)
>
>Gill
>


The rise in pH suggests the need for more frequent partial water
changes. However, Mollies are my most disease prone fish I have. I
wouldn't be too concerned other than the normal guilt trips, but I
sure would urge your son to do several partials a week. The pH should
be the same as your tap water if the changes are done often enough.

One advantage to small, frequent water changes, less need to worry
about chlorine. A small percentage change means the fresh water is
diluted more, thus less need to make any chemical additions. I have 5
tanks, largest 75 gallons, and would hate to go through the water
adjustment procedures. When I got my first tank, the 75 gallon, I was
trying to adjust ph, my tap water is 7.8, and accidentally made the
water acid. I lost several fish within minutes.

As great as it is to have live bearers, they are colorful and always
the chance to have young ones, in my experience, they are the most
likely to have problems. (Now, I consider those fry part of the
problem, so the boys and girls are now in separate tanks)

dick

[Gill Passman]

"Dick" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 20 May 2005 22:53:20 +0100, "Gill Passman"
> <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >Did the normal tank check including my son's tanks and noticed one of the
> >mollies was not swimming around as normal....Son checked in depth and
found
> >her at the bottom of the tank curved round herself.
> >
> >We did a quick water check - ammonia was 0.1, nitrites 0 and pH had risen
to
> >8.5 - normal is 7.5
> >
> >I caught her and bagged her while deciding what to do....she was
physically
> >sick....
> >
> >At the moment, with little other option, I have done a 30% water change
and
> >put her into a breeder trap...
> >
> >I will do another large water change tomorrow to get the ammonia down and
> >the pH starting up to normal levels. I'm also going to add another
> >pump/filter with mature filter medium.
> >
> >The other fish all seem to be very happy. No new fish added for 2 months
> >plus. 15gall tank with 3 Mollies and 4 Rosy Barbs.
> >
> >Has anyone got further suggestions (other than monitoring more closely
the
> >water changes done by my son - who is very remourseful)
> >
> >Gill
> >
>
>
> The rise in pH suggests the need for more frequent partial water
> changes. However, Mollies are my most disease prone fish I have. I
> wouldn't be too concerned other than the normal guilt trips, but I
> sure would urge your son to do several partials a week. The pH should
> be the same as your tap water if the changes are done often enough.
>
> One advantage to small, frequent water changes, less need to worry
> about chlorine. A small percentage change means the fresh water is
> diluted more, thus less need to make any chemical additions. I have 5
> tanks, largest 75 gallons, and would hate to go through the water
> adjustment procedures. When I got my first tank, the 75 gallon, I was
> trying to adjust ph, my tap water is 7.8, and accidentally made the
> water acid. I lost several fish within minutes.
>
> As great as it is to have live bearers, they are colorful and always
> the chance to have young ones, in my experience, they are the most
> likely to have problems. (Now, I consider those fry part of the
> problem, so the boys and girls are now in separate tanks)
>
> dick

Tested the water this morning and everything is back to normal - phew.....we
tested his other tank (30gall) and found a trace of ammonia in that one as
well (0.6) the pH was it's usual tap water 8 - starting to doubt last nights
reading. Must be down to the water changes - I need to supervise more and
keep to the same regime as I do with my 4 tanks.

The 30gall is rather over populated at the moment as it has been used to
grow out some Mollie and Platy fry - these will be off to the shop either
today or tomorrow although we will probably try and keep some of the Mollies
if possible (there are 8 of them). The "normal" inhabitants would be 5
Harlequins, 2 Glowlight Tetras, 2 Pearl Gouramis and a Plec....the plan had
been to add something else instead of the fry (we were considering 3 clowns)
but we will wait now until the water settles. This tank has a fluval 4 and
an external fluval 302. The internal has been up and running since September
last year and got moved from one of the 50galls to this tank a good few
months ago. A few more plants in both might also be a good move.

Fry production appears to have stopped with the Mollies so I'm guessing they
were all females already carrying. The Platys are a different matter - I now
leave them to it in my 50gall community - we usually have a survival rate of
one or two that grow at a very rapid rate.....the others become food I'm
afraid. The Mbuna tank population also appears to be increasing with at
least 3 new occupants that have survived for 2 weeks plus.

I treat the new water that I add with AquaPlus to remove chlorine and
chloramine but that is the limit of the adjustments I would make. My son's
two tanks have never been medicated or had anything added other than the
AquaPlus. In fact, until now, we have had no problems with them since they
were cycled. Possibly this has led to a bit of complacency on my part. That
being said the only fish we have lost in there are Mollies - one 6 months
ago and this one today so maybe they are just not as robust as the others.

Gill

[Gill Passman]

"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
>
> "Dick" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Fri, 20 May 2005 22:53:20 +0100, "Gill Passman"
> > <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > >Did the normal tank check including my son's tanks and noticed one of
the
> > >mollies was not swimming around as normal....Son checked in depth and
> found
> > >her at the bottom of the tank curved round herself.
> > >
> > >We did a quick water check - ammonia was 0.1, nitrites 0 and pH had
risen
> to
> > >8.5 - normal is 7.5
> > >
> > >I caught her and bagged her while deciding what to do....she was
> physically
> > >sick....
> > >
> > >At the moment, with little other option, I have done a 30% water change
> and
> > >put her into a breeder trap...
> > >
> > >I will do another large water change tomorrow to get the ammonia down
and
> > >the pH starting up to normal levels. I'm also going to add another
> > >pump/filter with mature filter medium.
> > >
> > >The other fish all seem to be very happy. No new fish added for 2
months
> > >plus. 15gall tank with 3 Mollies and 4 Rosy Barbs.
> > >
> > >Has anyone got further suggestions (other than monitoring more closely
> the
> > >water changes done by my son - who is very remourseful)
> > >
> > >Gill
> > >
> >
> >
> > The rise in pH suggests the need for more frequent partial water
> > changes. However, Mollies are my most disease prone fish I have. I
> > wouldn't be too concerned other than the normal guilt trips, but I
> > sure would urge your son to do several partials a week. The pH should
> > be the same as your tap water if the changes are done often enough.
> >
> > One advantage to small, frequent water changes, less need to worry
> > about chlorine. A small percentage change means the fresh water is
> > diluted more, thus less need to make any chemical additions. I have 5
> > tanks, largest 75 gallons, and would hate to go through the water
> > adjustment procedures. When I got my first tank, the 75 gallon, I was
> > trying to adjust ph, my tap water is 7.8, and accidentally made the
> > water acid. I lost several fish within minutes.
> >
> > As great as it is to have live bearers, they are colorful and always
> > the chance to have young ones, in my experience, they are the most
> > likely to have problems. (Now, I consider those fry part of the
> > problem, so the boys and girls are now in separate tanks)
> >
> > dick
>
> Tested the water this morning and everything is back to normal -
phew.....we
> tested his other tank (30gall) and found a trace of ammonia in that one as
> well (0.6) the pH was it's usual tap water 8 - starting to doubt last
nights
> reading. Must be down to the water changes - I need to supervise more and
> keep to the same regime as I do with my 4 tanks.
>
> The 30gall is rather over populated at the moment as it has been used to
> grow out some Mollie and Platy fry - these will be off to the shop either
> today or tomorrow although we will probably try and keep some of the
Mollies
> if possible (there are 8 of them). The "normal" inhabitants would be 5
> Harlequins, 2 Glowlight Tetras, 2 Pearl Gouramis and a Plec....the plan
had
> been to add something else instead of the fry (we were considering 3
clowns)
> but we will wait now until the water settles. This tank has a fluval 4 and
> an external fluval 302. The internal has been up and running since
September
> last year and got moved from one of the 50galls to this tank a good few
> months ago. A few more plants in both might also be a good move.
>
> Fry production appears to have stopped with the Mollies so I'm guessing
they
> were all females already carrying. The Platys are a different matter - I
now
> leave them to it in my 50gall community - we usually have a survival rate
of
> one or two that grow at a very rapid rate.....the others become food I'm
> afraid. The Mbuna tank population also appears to be increasing with at
> least 3 new occupants that have survived for 2 weeks plus.
>
> I treat the new water that I add with AquaPlus to remove chlorine and
> chloramine but that is the limit of the adjustments I would make. My son's
> two tanks have never been medicated or had anything added other than the
> AquaPlus. In fact, until now, we have had no problems with them since they
> were cycled. Possibly this has led to a bit of complacency on my part.
That
> being said the only fish we have lost in there are Mollies - one 6 months
> ago and this one today so maybe they are just not as robust as the others.
>
> Gill
>
>
False alarm - checked the colour of the water before adding the reagent and
it has a yellowish tinge from the bogwood. Ammonia 0 in the 30gall - :-)

[Elaine T]

Gill Passman wrote:
> "Elaine T" > wrote in message
> m...
>
>>Gill Passman wrote:
>>
>>>Did the normal tank check including my son's tanks and noticed one of
>
> the
>
>>>mollies was not swimming around as normal....Son checked in depth and
>
> found
>
>>>her at the bottom of the tank curved round herself.
>>>
>>>We did a quick water check - ammonia was 0.1, nitrites 0 and pH had
>
> risen to
>
>>>8.5 - normal is 7.5
>>>
>>>I caught her and bagged her while deciding what to do....she was
>
> physically
>
>>>sick....
>>>
>>>At the moment, with little other option, I have done a 30% water change
>
> and
>
>>>put her into a breeder trap...
>>>
>>>I will do another large water change tomorrow to get the ammonia down
>
> and
>
>>>the pH starting up to normal levels. I'm also going to add another
>>>pump/filter with mature filter medium.
>>>
>>>The other fish all seem to be very happy. No new fish added for 2 months
>>>plus. 15gall tank with 3 Mollies and 4 Rosy Barbs.
>>>
>>>Has anyone got further suggestions (other than monitoring more closely
>
> the
>
>>>water changes done by my son - who is very remourseful)
>>>
>>>Gill
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Did you add an ammonia detoxifier like AmQuel or Ammo Lock? As you know
>>0.1 ppm free ammonia is quite toxic at pH 8.5. Water changes and cycled
>>filter medium sound quite sensible. I'd also add 1 tsp/5 gal salt in
>>case you get a bit of nitrite as well. The mollies will appreciate some
>>salt anyway.
>>
>>--
>>Elaine T __
>>http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
>>rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com
>
>
> Too late - she's gone :-(
>
> Unfortunately I didn't have any ammonia detoxifier.
>
Sorry to hear that.

I started wondering whether your water has cloramine. AquaPlus does not
neutralize/detoxify the ammonia that forms when it breaks down
chloramine. You might want to check with your water board or LFS about
whether your water has chloramine.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Gill Passman]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
. com...
> Gill Passman wrote:
> > "Elaine T" > wrote in message
> > m...
> >
> >>Gill Passman wrote:
> >>
> >>>Did the normal tank check including my son's tanks and noticed one of
> >
> > the
> >
> >>>mollies was not swimming around as normal....Son checked in depth and
> >
> > found
> >
> >>>her at the bottom of the tank curved round herself.
> >>>
> >>>We did a quick water check - ammonia was 0.1, nitrites 0 and pH had
> >
> > risen to
> >
> >>>8.5 - normal is 7.5
> >>>
> >>>I caught her and bagged her while deciding what to do....she was
> >
> > physically
> >
> >>>sick....
> >>>
> >>>At the moment, with little other option, I have done a 30% water change
> >
> > and
> >
> >>>put her into a breeder trap...
> >>>
> >>>I will do another large water change tomorrow to get the ammonia down
> >
> > and
> >
> >>>the pH starting up to normal levels. I'm also going to add another
> >>>pump/filter with mature filter medium.
> >>>
> >>>The other fish all seem to be very happy. No new fish added for 2
months
> >>>plus. 15gall tank with 3 Mollies and 4 Rosy Barbs.
> >>>
> >>>Has anyone got further suggestions (other than monitoring more closely
> >
> > the
> >
> >>>water changes done by my son - who is very remourseful)
> >>>
> >>>Gill
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>Did you add an ammonia detoxifier like AmQuel or Ammo Lock? As you know
> >>0.1 ppm free ammonia is quite toxic at pH 8.5. Water changes and cycled
> >>filter medium sound quite sensible. I'd also add 1 tsp/5 gal salt in
> >>case you get a bit of nitrite as well. The mollies will appreciate some
> >>salt anyway.
> >>
> >>--
> >>Elaine T __
> >>http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> >>rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com
> >
> >
> > Too late - she's gone :-(
> >
> > Unfortunately I didn't have any ammonia detoxifier.
> >
> Sorry to hear that.
>
> I started wondering whether your water has cloramine. AquaPlus does not
> neutralize/detoxify the ammonia that forms when it breaks down
> chloramine. You might want to check with your water board or LFS about
> whether your water has chloramine.
>
> --
> Elaine T __
> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

AquaPlus advertises itself as breaking down chloramine.....We've never had
any problems in the past with this and I add it on every change on all of
the tanks. The only fish we ever lost in that tank were Mollies - one in
Sept/Oct and this one....

One of the main reasons I don't keep an ammonia detoxifier is that we have
never had this before....small readings on cycling tanks but nothing much
more...and these have been dealt with by adding substrate or filter medium.

Everything is back to normal today after last nights big change....keeping a
close monitor....

Gill

[Gill Passman]

"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
> Did the normal tank check including my son's tanks and noticed one of the
> mollies was not swimming around as normal....Son checked in depth and
found
> her at the bottom of the tank curved round herself.
>
> We did a quick water check - ammonia was 0.1, nitrites 0 and pH had risen
to
> 8.5 - normal is 7.5
>
> I caught her and bagged her while deciding what to do....she was
physically
> sick....
>
> At the moment, with little other option, I have done a 30% water change
and
> put her into a breeder trap...
>
> I will do another large water change tomorrow to get the ammonia down and
> the pH starting up to normal levels. I'm also going to add another
> pump/filter with mature filter medium.
>
> The other fish all seem to be very happy. No new fish added for 2 months
> plus. 15gall tank with 3 Mollies and 4 Rosy Barbs.
>
> Has anyone got further suggestions (other than monitoring more closely the
> water changes done by my son - who is very remourseful)
>
> Gill
>
>
Another one gone this morning - same thing :-(

The water tested out fine for ammonia, nitrite and the pH was back to it's
normal 8. The only thing I didn't test for was nitrate but will do that
later.

This is puzzling me. Nothing has been added to the tank for months so we
can't have introduced any infections. And the only change was the magnetic
algae scraper last week and that had been thoroughly washed before use. It
looks like they have some sort of swim bladder problem - they curl in on
themselves.

Gill

[Elaine T]

Gill Passman wrote:

> AquaPlus advertises itself as breaking down chloramine.....We've never had
> any problems in the past with this and I add it on every change on all of
> the tanks. The only fish we ever lost in that tank were Mollies - one in
> Sept/Oct and this one....
>
> One of the main reasons I don't keep an ammonia detoxifier is that we have
> never had this before....small readings on cycling tanks but nothing much
> more...and these have been dealt with by adding substrate or filter medium.
>
> Everything is back to normal today after last nights big change....keeping a
> close monitor....
>
> Gill
>
>
There are two things that a chloramine water treatment must do.

1 - Break the bond between chlorine and ammonia and reduce the chlorine
to a nontoxic form. Even sodium thiosulfate does this.

2 - Detoxify the ammonia released from the chloramine. Municipal
chloramine concentrations are typically 3-6 ppm, and 1-2 ppm ammonia is
released when the chloramine is neutralized. Do a 25% water change with
water that contains chloramines and has been treated with thiosulfate,
and you have 0.25 ppm to 0.5 ppm ammonia in your tank! It is broken
down by the biofilter, but still...

See why I'm wondering about chloramine?

More info for newbies because I always type too much...

A lot of water conditioners including all of those containing pure
sodium thiosulfate, Stress Coat, and AquaPlus (according to Hagen's
website) only do step 1. I think the claim AquaPlus makes that it
"neutralizes chloramines" is rather misleading.

AmQuel, AmQuel+, Prime, Ammo Lock, Ammo Lock 2, and AquaSafe are some
products that both break the chloramine chemical bond and neutralize the
ammonia. They are safe to use with both chlorine and chloramines under
all water conditions and for large water changes.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Dick]

On Sun, 22 May 2005 09:48:17 +0100, "Gill Passman"
<gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote:

>
>"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
>> Did the normal tank check including my son's tanks and noticed one of the
>> mollies was not swimming around as normal....Son checked in depth and
>found
>> her at the bottom of the tank curved round herself.
>>
>> We did a quick water check - ammonia was 0.1, nitrites 0 and pH had risen
>to
>> 8.5 - normal is 7.5
>>
>> I caught her and bagged her while deciding what to do....she was
>physically
>> sick....
>>
>> At the moment, with little other option, I have done a 30% water change
>and
>> put her into a breeder trap...
>>
>> I will do another large water change tomorrow to get the ammonia down and
>> the pH starting up to normal levels. I'm also going to add another
>> pump/filter with mature filter medium.
>>
>> The other fish all seem to be very happy. No new fish added for 2 months
>> plus. 15gall tank with 3 Mollies and 4 Rosy Barbs.
>>
>> Has anyone got further suggestions (other than monitoring more closely the
>> water changes done by my son - who is very remourseful)
>>
>> Gill
>>
>>
>Another one gone this morning - same thing :-(
>
>The water tested out fine for ammonia, nitrite and the pH was back to it's
>normal 8. The only thing I didn't test for was nitrate but will do that
>later.
>
>This is puzzling me. Nothing has been added to the tank for months so we
>can't have introduced any infections. And the only change was the magnetic
>algae scraper last week and that had been thoroughly washed before use. It
>looks like they have some sort of swim bladder problem - they curl in on
>themselves.
>
>Gill
>
>
I have had more mollies get sick than any other species. They are
beautiful to watch, but want more attention. I gather adding salt
helps, not sure what pH range they like. I am not planning to replace
my mollies when they are gone, for that matter, no more live bearers.

dick

[Gill Passman]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
om...
> Gill Passman wrote:
>
> > AquaPlus advertises itself as breaking down chloramine.....We've never
had
> > any problems in the past with this and I add it on every change on all
of
> > the tanks. The only fish we ever lost in that tank were Mollies - one in
> > Sept/Oct and this one....
> >
> > One of the main reasons I don't keep an ammonia detoxifier is that we
have
> > never had this before....small readings on cycling tanks but nothing
much
> > more...and these have been dealt with by adding substrate or filter
medium.
> >
> > Everything is back to normal today after last nights big
change....keeping a
> > close monitor....
> >
> > Gill
> >
> >
> There are two things that a chloramine water treatment must do.
>
> 1 - Break the bond between chlorine and ammonia and reduce the chlorine
> to a nontoxic form. Even sodium thiosulfate does this.
>
> 2 - Detoxify the ammonia released from the chloramine. Municipal
> chloramine concentrations are typically 3-6 ppm, and 1-2 ppm ammonia is
> released when the chloramine is neutralized. Do a 25% water change with
> water that contains chloramines and has been treated with thiosulfate,
> and you have 0.25 ppm to 0.5 ppm ammonia in your tank! It is broken
> down by the biofilter, but still...
>
> See why I'm wondering about chloramine?
>
> More info for newbies because I always type too much...
>
> A lot of water conditioners including all of those containing pure
> sodium thiosulfate, Stress Coat, and AquaPlus (according to Hagen's
> website) only do step 1. I think the claim AquaPlus makes that it
> "neutralizes chloramines" is rather misleading.
>
> AmQuel, AmQuel+, Prime, Ammo Lock, Ammo Lock 2, and AquaSafe are some
> products that both break the chloramine chemical bond and neutralize the
> ammonia. They are safe to use with both chlorine and chloramines under
> all water conditions and for large water changes.
>
> --
> Elaine T __
> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

The only thing that AquaPlus does not claim to do is neutralise ammonia - I
checked the products above and some of these claim this in addition to
chlorine, chloramine and heavy metals. I will certainly look at one of the
products that also does the ammonia.

AquaPlus claims to remove both chlorine and chloramine and to neutralise
heavy metals. Under UK law if it did not remove chloramine it could not be
sold with that claim.

If it is chloramine (and I'm not ruling it out), I would rather expect to
see the same problem in all 6 tanks as the water is treated in the same way
for all of them...

[Gill Passman]

"Dick" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 22 May 2005 09:48:17 +0100, "Gill Passman"
> <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
> .. .
> >> Did the normal tank check including my son's tanks and noticed one of
the
> >> mollies was not swimming around as normal....Son checked in depth and
> >found
> >> her at the bottom of the tank curved round herself.
> >>
> >> We did a quick water check - ammonia was 0.1, nitrites 0 and pH had
risen
> >to
> >> 8.5 - normal is 7.5
> >>
> >> I caught her and bagged her while deciding what to do....she was
> >physically
> >> sick....
> >>
> >> At the moment, with little other option, I have done a 30% water change
> >and
> >> put her into a breeder trap...
> >>
> >> I will do another large water change tomorrow to get the ammonia down
and
> >> the pH starting up to normal levels. I'm also going to add another
> >> pump/filter with mature filter medium.
> >>
> >> The other fish all seem to be very happy. No new fish added for 2
months
> >> plus. 15gall tank with 3 Mollies and 4 Rosy Barbs.
> >>
> >> Has anyone got further suggestions (other than monitoring more closely
the
> >> water changes done by my son - who is very remourseful)
> >>
> >> Gill
> >>
> >>
> >Another one gone this morning - same thing :-(
> >
> >The water tested out fine for ammonia, nitrite and the pH was back to
it's
> >normal 8. The only thing I didn't test for was nitrate but will do that
> >later.
> >
> >This is puzzling me. Nothing has been added to the tank for months so we
> >can't have introduced any infections. And the only change was the
magnetic
> >algae scraper last week and that had been thoroughly washed before use.
It
> >looks like they have some sort of swim bladder problem - they curl in on
> >themselves.
> >
> >Gill
> >
> >
> I have had more mollies get sick than any other species. They are
> beautiful to watch, but want more attention. I gather adding salt
> helps, not sure what pH range they like. I am not planning to replace
> my mollies when they are gone, for that matter, no more live bearers.
>
> dick

These Mollies - or I suppose I should now say this Mollie :-( - share the
tank with 4 rosy barbs - before going down the salt route I'd need to be
very sure this would not harm the barbs.

We took most of the fry to the fish shop yesterday but we did keep 3 Platys
and 4 Mollies. Like you I don't think we will buy anymore.

The only fish that we have lost in this tank are Mollies - but that being
said this is the only tank until very recently were we have kept them (the 4
youngsters are in the 30gall).

Gill

[Derek Benson]

On Fri, 20 May 2005 22:53:20 +0100, "Gill Passman"
<gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote:

>Did the normal tank check including my son's tanks and noticed one of the
>mollies was not swimming around as normal....Son checked in depth and found
>her at the bottom of the tank curved round herself.
>
>We did a quick water check - ammonia was 0.1, nitrites 0 and pH had risen to
>8.5 - normal is 7.5
>
>I caught her and bagged her while deciding what to do....she was physically
>sick....
>
>At the moment, with little other option, I have done a 30% water change and
>put her into a breeder trap...
>
>I will do another large water change tomorrow to get the ammonia down and
>the pH starting up to normal levels. I'm also going to add another
>pump/filter with mature filter medium.
>
>The other fish all seem to be very happy. No new fish added for 2 months
>plus. 15gall tank with 3 Mollies and 4 Rosy Barbs.
>
>Has anyone got further suggestions (other than monitoring more closely the
>water changes done by my son - who is very remourseful)
>
>Gill
>
Are these Black Mollies you have or are they the Sailfin Molly?
Mollies are not just Mollies...it makes a difference. Mollies require
salt to do well and the Sailfin Molly should be in a brackish tank.
Even the Black Molly needs salt as an absolute requirement, as far as
I could ever figure out from the times I've had mollies years ago.
They also require vegetable matter in their food, mollies should be
fed primarily the veggie flake food every day, as opposed to any other
fish food one can buy at the store.

I'm only guessing concerning your recently deceased, but your mollies
are probably not in the most congenial environment for them (no salt),
possibly their diet isn't good enough if they don't have veggies every
day, so their general health, immune system, etc. is not good enough
to withstand this 0.1 ammonia and the pH rise that you found the first
day, and they have kicked the bucket; whereas the Rosy Barbs are in
better general health because the environment is better for them, so
they could manage these chemistry changes.

-Derek

[Gill Passman]

"Derek Benson" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 20 May 2005 22:53:20 +0100, "Gill Passman"
> <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >Did the normal tank check including my son's tanks and noticed one of the
> >mollies was not swimming around as normal....Son checked in depth and
found
> >her at the bottom of the tank curved round herself.
> >
> >We did a quick water check - ammonia was 0.1, nitrites 0 and pH had risen
to
> >8.5 - normal is 7.5
> >
> >I caught her and bagged her while deciding what to do....she was
physically
> >sick....
> >
> >At the moment, with little other option, I have done a 30% water change
and
> >put her into a breeder trap...
> >
> >I will do another large water change tomorrow to get the ammonia down and
> >the pH starting up to normal levels. I'm also going to add another
> >pump/filter with mature filter medium.
> >
> >The other fish all seem to be very happy. No new fish added for 2 months
> >plus. 15gall tank with 3 Mollies and 4 Rosy Barbs.
> >
> >Has anyone got further suggestions (other than monitoring more closely
the
> >water changes done by my son - who is very remourseful)
> >
> >Gill
> >
> Are these Black Mollies you have or are they the Sailfin Molly?
> Mollies are not just Mollies...it makes a difference. Mollies require
> salt to do well and the Sailfin Molly should be in a brackish tank.
> Even the Black Molly needs salt as an absolute requirement, as far as
> I could ever figure out from the times I've had mollies years ago.
> They also require vegetable matter in their food, mollies should be
> fed primarily the veggie flake food every day, as opposed to any other
> fish food one can buy at the store.
>
> I'm only guessing concerning your recently deceased, but your mollies
> are probably not in the most congenial environment for them (no salt),
> possibly their diet isn't good enough if they don't have veggies every
> day, so their general health, immune system, etc. is not good enough
> to withstand this 0.1 ammonia and the pH rise that you found the first
> day, and they have kicked the bucket; whereas the Rosy Barbs are in
> better general health because the environment is better for them, so
> they could manage these chemistry changes.
>
> -Derek

They are/were Dalmation Mollies (a variation of saiflins I believe). They
are mainly fed on flake with some Daphinia, Blood Worm and Brine Shrimp for
variety. The fry also pick at the algae wafers thrown in for the Plec.
Additionally this is the only tank in the house that seems to keep algae
free - so yep, diet and no salt probably contributed.

Gill

[Elaine T]

Gill Passman wrote:
> "Elaine T" > wrote in message
> om...
>
>>Gill Passman wrote:
>>
>>
>>>AquaPlus advertises itself as breaking down chloramine.....We've never
>
> had
>
>>>any problems in the past with this and I add it on every change on all
>
> of
>
>>>the tanks. The only fish we ever lost in that tank were Mollies - one in
>>>Sept/Oct and this one....
>>>
>>>One of the main reasons I don't keep an ammonia detoxifier is that we
>
> have
>
>>>never had this before....small readings on cycling tanks but nothing
>
> much
>
>>>more...and these have been dealt with by adding substrate or filter
>
> medium.
>
>>>Everything is back to normal today after last nights big
>
> change....keeping a
>
>>>close monitor....
>>>
>>>Gill
>>>
>>>
>>
>>There are two things that a chloramine water treatment must do.
>>
>>1 - Break the bond between chlorine and ammonia and reduce the chlorine
>>to a nontoxic form. Even sodium thiosulfate does this.
>>
>>2 - Detoxify the ammonia released from the chloramine. Municipal
>>chloramine concentrations are typically 3-6 ppm, and 1-2 ppm ammonia is
>>released when the chloramine is neutralized. Do a 25% water change with
>>water that contains chloramines and has been treated with thiosulfate,
>>and you have 0.25 ppm to 0.5 ppm ammonia in your tank! It is broken
>>down by the biofilter, but still...
>>
>>See why I'm wondering about chloramine?
>>
>>More info for newbies because I always type too much...
>>
>>A lot of water conditioners including all of those containing pure
>>sodium thiosulfate, Stress Coat, and AquaPlus (according to Hagen's
>>website) only do step 1. I think the claim AquaPlus makes that it
>>"neutralizes chloramines" is rather misleading.
>>
>>AmQuel, AmQuel+, Prime, Ammo Lock, Ammo Lock 2, and AquaSafe are some
>>products that both break the chloramine chemical bond and neutralize the
>>ammonia. They are safe to use with both chlorine and chloramines under
>>all water conditions and for large water changes.
>>
>>--
>>Elaine T __
>>http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
>>rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com
>
>
> The only thing that AquaPlus does not claim to do is neutralise ammonia - I
> checked the products above and some of these claim this in addition to
> chlorine, chloramine and heavy metals. I will certainly look at one of the
> products that also does the ammonia.
>
> AquaPlus claims to remove both chlorine and chloramine and to neutralise
> heavy metals. Under UK law if it did not remove chloramine it could not be
> sold with that claim.

The chloramine is gone after treating with AquaPlus. Hagen just omits
the fact that they turned about 1/3 of it into free ammonia. It's
probably legal, but IMO very misleading.

> If it is chloramine (and I'm not ruling it out), I would rather expect to
> see the same problem in all 6 tanks as the water is treated in the same way
> for all of them...

Fair point. The question then becomes how fast can the biofiltration
and plants in each tank pull down an ammonia spike? Also how
susceptible are the fish to ammonia because of pH, temps, species,
stress, and so forth?

I may be totally wrong about the chloramine. It was just something that
came to mind that might explain what happened.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Elaine T]

Gill Passman wrote:
> "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
> .. .
>
>>Did the normal tank check including my son's tanks and noticed one of the
>>mollies was not swimming around as normal....Son checked in depth and
>
> found
>
>>her at the bottom of the tank curved round herself.
>>
>>We did a quick water check - ammonia was 0.1, nitrites 0 and pH had risen
>
> to
>
>>8.5 - normal is 7.5
>>
>>I caught her and bagged her while deciding what to do....she was
>
> physically
>
>>sick....
>>
>>At the moment, with little other option, I have done a 30% water change
>
> and
>
>>put her into a breeder trap...
>>
>>I will do another large water change tomorrow to get the ammonia down and
>>the pH starting up to normal levels. I'm also going to add another
>>pump/filter with mature filter medium.
>>
>>The other fish all seem to be very happy. No new fish added for 2 months
>>plus. 15gall tank with 3 Mollies and 4 Rosy Barbs.
>>
>>Has anyone got further suggestions (other than monitoring more closely the
>>water changes done by my son - who is very remourseful)
>>
>>Gill
>>
>>
>
> Another one gone this morning - same thing :-(
>
> The water tested out fine for ammonia, nitrite and the pH was back to it's
> normal 8. The only thing I didn't test for was nitrate but will do that
> later.
>
> This is puzzling me. Nothing has been added to the tank for months so we
> can't have introduced any infections. And the only change was the magnetic
> algae scraper last week and that had been thoroughly washed before use. It
> looks like they have some sort of swim bladder problem - they curl in on
> themselves.
>
> Gill
>
Did you add the salt? Honest, it will help the mollies and will not
hurt your barbs if you do not go above 0.1%. (1 g/l or 1 US tsp/US gal).

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Gill Passman]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
om...
> Gill Passman wrote:
> > "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
> > .. .
> >
> >>Did the normal tank check including my son's tanks and noticed one of
the
> >>mollies was not swimming around as normal....Son checked in depth and
> >
> > found
> >
> >>her at the bottom of the tank curved round herself.
> >>
> >>We did a quick water check - ammonia was 0.1, nitrites 0 and pH had
risen
> >
> > to
> >
> >>8.5 - normal is 7.5
> >>
> >>I caught her and bagged her while deciding what to do....she was
> >
> > physically
> >
> >>sick....
> >>
> >>At the moment, with little other option, I have done a 30% water change
> >
> > and
> >
> >>put her into a breeder trap...
> >>
> >>I will do another large water change tomorrow to get the ammonia down
and
> >>the pH starting up to normal levels. I'm also going to add another
> >>pump/filter with mature filter medium.
> >>
> >>The other fish all seem to be very happy. No new fish added for 2 months
> >>plus. 15gall tank with 3 Mollies and 4 Rosy Barbs.
> >>
> >>Has anyone got further suggestions (other than monitoring more closely
the
> >>water changes done by my son - who is very remourseful)
> >>
> >>Gill
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Another one gone this morning - same thing :-(
> >
> > The water tested out fine for ammonia, nitrite and the pH was back to
it's
> > normal 8. The only thing I didn't test for was nitrate but will do that
> > later.
> >
> > This is puzzling me. Nothing has been added to the tank for months so we
> > can't have introduced any infections. And the only change was the
magnetic
> > algae scraper last week and that had been thoroughly washed before use.
It
> > looks like they have some sort of swim bladder problem - they curl in on
> > themselves.
> >
> > Gill
> >
> Did you add the salt? Honest, it will help the mollies and will not
> hurt your barbs if you do not go above 0.1%. (1 g/l or 1 US tsp/US gal).
>
> --
> Elaine T __
> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

Haven't yet as I was still researching any effect on the barbs....we are now
down to one Mollie - looking healthy tonight but so was the one we lost this
morning....we still have four juveniles elsewhere - again living without
salt but getting veggie stuff in their diet.....

Water parameters now all check out fine so hopefully the crisis might be
over.

The only reason that I can think of for the ammonia spike is water changes
not happening frequently enough....but then we are still talking about just
a very small trace barely detectable with the test kit.....

I'm just wondering if it would be better to move the barbs out and then put
the 4 mollie juvs into the same tank as the other one - main hesitation is
if there is something toxic for mollies going on there.....but we could then
add salt without any worries about the other fish. If I move the barbs they
would be going into a 30gall with 5 Harlequins, 2 Glowlight Tetras, 2 Pearl
Gouramis and a Golden Nugget Pl*co - oh and one juv platy we couldn't catch
when we took the rest to the LFS yesterday....not really an overstocked tank
right yet but there are 4 barbs - 1M/3F

Gill

[Dick]

On Sun, 22 May 2005 22:27:07 +0100, "Gill Passman"
<gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote:

>
>"Elaine T" > wrote in message
om...
>> Gill Passman wrote:
>> > "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
>> > .. .
>> >
>> >>Did the normal tank check including my son's tanks and noticed one of
>the
>> >>mollies was not swimming around as normal....Son checked in depth and
>> >
>> > found
>> >
>> >>her at the bottom of the tank curved round herself.
>> >>
>> >>We did a quick water check - ammonia was 0.1, nitrites 0 and pH had
>risen
>> >
>> > to
>> >
>> >>8.5 - normal is 7.5
>> >>
>> >>I caught her and bagged her while deciding what to do....she was
>> >
>> > physically
>> >
>> >>sick....
>> >>
>> >>At the moment, with little other option, I have done a 30% water change
>> >
>> > and
>> >
>> >>put her into a breeder trap...
>> >>
>> >>I will do another large water change tomorrow to get the ammonia down
>and
>> >>the pH starting up to normal levels. I'm also going to add another
>> >>pump/filter with mature filter medium.
>> >>
>> >>The other fish all seem to be very happy. No new fish added for 2 months
>> >>plus. 15gall tank with 3 Mollies and 4 Rosy Barbs.
>> >>
>> >>Has anyone got further suggestions (other than monitoring more closely
>the
>> >>water changes done by my son - who is very remourseful)
>> >>
>> >>Gill
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> > Another one gone this morning - same thing :-(
>> >
>> > The water tested out fine for ammonia, nitrite and the pH was back to
>it's
>> > normal 8. The only thing I didn't test for was nitrate but will do that
>> > later.
>> >
>> > This is puzzling me. Nothing has been added to the tank for months so we
>> > can't have introduced any infections. And the only change was the
>magnetic
>> > algae scraper last week and that had been thoroughly washed before use.
>It
>> > looks like they have some sort of swim bladder problem - they curl in on
>> > themselves.
>> >
>> > Gill
>> >
>> Did you add the salt? Honest, it will help the mollies and will not
>> hurt your barbs if you do not go above 0.1%. (1 g/l or 1 US tsp/US gal).
>>
>> --
>> Elaine T __
>> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
>> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com
>
>Haven't yet as I was still researching any effect on the barbs....we are now
>down to one Mollie - looking healthy tonight but so was the one we lost this
>morning....we still have four juveniles elsewhere - again living without
>salt but getting veggie stuff in their diet.....
>
>Water parameters now all check out fine so hopefully the crisis might be
>over.
>
>The only reason that I can think of for the ammonia spike is water changes
>not happening frequently enough....but then we are still talking about just
>a very small trace barely detectable with the test kit.....
>
>I'm just wondering if it would be better to move the barbs out and then put
>the 4 mollie juvs into the same tank as the other one - main hesitation is
>if there is something toxic for mollies going on there.....but we could then
>add salt without any worries about the other fish. If I move the barbs they
>would be going into a 30gall with 5 Harlequins, 2 Glowlight Tetras, 2 Pearl
>Gouramis and a Golden Nugget Pl*co - oh and one juv platy we couldn't catch
>when we took the rest to the LFS yesterday....not really an overstocked tank
>right yet but there are 4 barbs - 1M/3F
>
>Gill
>

Some mysteries are never solved. I wouldn't move the healthy mollies
into a suspect tank, leave well enough alone!

As to salt, I don't doubt it is good for mollies, but not all plants
like it. Also, it is one more factor to maintain. I am not willing
to add it just for one species. I have 7 adults in 4 tanks (had 8 in
5 tanks until this morning, I looked to be sure of my count and found
one dead in a 10 gallon tank. It looked ok yesterday.) I don't use
salt. About 6 months ago, when I separated the boys and girls, I lost
4 males in one tank within days of each other. No similar loss of
girls, strange.

Why not focus on the fish that are doing well, maybe move the one
remaining adult molly in with the juvenals?

dick

[Gill Passman]

"Dick" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 22 May 2005 22:27:07 +0100, "Gill Passman"
> <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Elaine T" > wrote in message
> om...
> >> Gill Passman wrote:
> >> > "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
> >> > .. .
> >> >
> >> >>Did the normal tank check including my son's tanks and noticed one of
> >the
> >> >>mollies was not swimming around as normal....Son checked in depth and
> >> >
> >> > found
> >> >
> >> >>her at the bottom of the tank curved round herself.
> >> >>
> >> >>We did a quick water check - ammonia was 0.1, nitrites 0 and pH had
> >risen
> >> >
> >> > to
> >> >
> >> >>8.5 - normal is 7.5
> >> >>
> >> >>I caught her and bagged her while deciding what to do....she was
> >> >
> >> > physically
> >> >
> >> >>sick....
> >> >>
> >> >>At the moment, with little other option, I have done a 30% water
change
> >> >
> >> > and
> >> >
> >> >>put her into a breeder trap...
> >> >>
> >> >>I will do another large water change tomorrow to get the ammonia down
> >and
> >> >>the pH starting up to normal levels. I'm also going to add another
> >> >>pump/filter with mature filter medium.
> >> >>
> >> >>The other fish all seem to be very happy. No new fish added for 2
months
> >> >>plus. 15gall tank with 3 Mollies and 4 Rosy Barbs.
> >> >>
> >> >>Has anyone got further suggestions (other than monitoring more
closely
> >the
> >> >>water changes done by my son - who is very remourseful)
> >> >>
> >> >>Gill
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > Another one gone this morning - same thing :-(
> >> >
> >> > The water tested out fine for ammonia, nitrite and the pH was back to
> >it's
> >> > normal 8. The only thing I didn't test for was nitrate but will do
that
> >> > later.
> >> >
> >> > This is puzzling me. Nothing has been added to the tank for months so
we
> >> > can't have introduced any infections. And the only change was the
> >magnetic
> >> > algae scraper last week and that had been thoroughly washed before
use.
> >It
> >> > looks like they have some sort of swim bladder problem - they curl in
on
> >> > themselves.
> >> >
> >> > Gill
> >> >
> >> Did you add the salt? Honest, it will help the mollies and will not
> >> hurt your barbs if you do not go above 0.1%. (1 g/l or 1 US tsp/US
gal).
> >>
> >> --
> >> Elaine T __
> >> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> >> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com
> >
> >Haven't yet as I was still researching any effect on the barbs....we are
now
> >down to one Mollie - looking healthy tonight but so was the one we lost
this
> >morning....we still have four juveniles elsewhere - again living without
> >salt but getting veggie stuff in their diet.....
> >
> >Water parameters now all check out fine so hopefully the crisis might be
> >over.
> >
> >The only reason that I can think of for the ammonia spike is water
changes
> >not happening frequently enough....but then we are still talking about
just
> >a very small trace barely detectable with the test kit.....
> >
> >I'm just wondering if it would be better to move the barbs out and then
put
> >the 4 mollie juvs into the same tank as the other one - main hesitation
is
> >if there is something toxic for mollies going on there.....but we could
then
> >add salt without any worries about the other fish. If I move the barbs
they
> >would be going into a 30gall with 5 Harlequins, 2 Glowlight Tetras, 2
Pearl
> >Gouramis and a Golden Nugget Pl*co - oh and one juv platy we couldn't
catch
> >when we took the rest to the LFS yesterday....not really an overstocked
tank
> >right yet but there are 4 barbs - 1M/3F
> >
> >Gill
> >
>
> Some mysteries are never solved. I wouldn't move the healthy mollies
> into a suspect tank, leave well enough alone!
>
> As to salt, I don't doubt it is good for mollies, but not all plants
> like it. Also, it is one more factor to maintain. I am not willing
> to add it just for one species. I have 7 adults in 4 tanks (had 8 in
> 5 tanks until this morning, I looked to be sure of my count and found
> one dead in a 10 gallon tank. It looked ok yesterday.) I don't use
> salt. About 6 months ago, when I separated the boys and girls, I lost
> 4 males in one tank within days of each other. No similar loss of
> girls, strange.
>
> Why not focus on the fish that are doing well, maybe move the one
> remaining adult molly in with the juvenals?
>
> dick
>
Been thinking about it...my dilemma would be moving a diseased fish into a
healthy tank - maybe if all is still well with the adult Mollie in question
after a week since the last death I might do that - only problem is I can't
add salt into the other tank either....

Sorry to hear about your Mollie loss today....I notice Nikki has posted
about one of her Mollies today with similar symptoms to those that mine had
(although mine didn't do the buoyant bit first) but the resting on the
substrate is very much the same....

Wonder if she adds salt?

Gill

[Elaine T]

Gill Passman wrote:
>
> Been thinking about it...my dilemma would be moving a diseased fish into a
> healthy tank - maybe if all is still well with the adult Mollie in question
> after a week since the last death I might do that - only problem is I can't
> add salt into the other tank either....
>
> Sorry to hear about your Mollie loss today....I notice Nikki has posted
> about one of her Mollies today with similar symptoms to those that mine had
> (although mine didn't do the buoyant bit first) but the resting on the
> substrate is very much the same....
>
> Wonder if she adds salt?
>
Dunno. I've just found that a mollie without salt is a slightly
stressed mollie. You can keep them in excellent conditions without salt
just as you can keep rams and discus at high pH. Problem is, as soon as
something else changes, the mollie goes from slightly stressed to very
stressed.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Dick]

On Tue, 24 May 2005 20:33:58 GMT, Elaine T >
wrote:

>Gill Passman wrote:
>>
>> Been thinking about it...my dilemma would be moving a diseased fish into a
>> healthy tank - maybe if all is still well with the adult Mollie in question
>> after a week since the last death I might do that - only problem is I can't
>> add salt into the other tank either....
>>
>> Sorry to hear about your Mollie loss today....I notice Nikki has posted
>> about one of her Mollies today with similar symptoms to those that mine had
>> (although mine didn't do the buoyant bit first) but the resting on the
>> substrate is very much the same....
>>
>> Wonder if she adds salt?
>>
>Dunno. I've just found that a mollie without salt is a slightly
>stressed mollie. You can keep them in excellent conditions without salt
>just as you can keep rams and discus at high pH. Problem is, as soon as
>something else changes, the mollie goes from slightly stressed to very
>stressed.

In the past I have added salt because it is recommended so often. If
I move a molly to the hospital tank I will add salt as part of the
treatment, however, I can't say I would recognize a molly as being
"slightly stressed." Ich, fungus, dropsy, swim bladder symptoms I can
recognize. Over the last 30 months I have seen lots of mollies die,
some just die with no symptoms. I had one of my older males die this
week, looked fine the day before, floating in the morning. I had 4
males die after separating them from the females, "lost love disease"
<g>, but I can't say that I can see any change in their behavior when
I have added salt. The healthy ones must be adapted. I have one
beautiful male sail fin in a 10 gallon tank, he struts his stuff
whenever I approach. I have 4 large females in my 75 gallon community
tank that have lived there and never been ill. So, while respecting
that mollies may well be more comfortable with salt in their water, I
wonder how one can tell when a molly is "slightly stressed?"

dick

[Elaine T]

Dick wrote:
> On Tue, 24 May 2005 20:33:58 GMT, Elaine T >
> wrote:
>
>
>>Gill Passman wrote:
>>
>>>Been thinking about it...my dilemma would be moving a diseased fish into a
>>>healthy tank - maybe if all is still well with the adult Mollie in question
>>>after a week since the last death I might do that - only problem is I can't
>>>add salt into the other tank either....
>>>
>>>Sorry to hear about your Mollie loss today....I notice Nikki has posted
>>>about one of her Mollies today with similar symptoms to those that mine had
>>>(although mine didn't do the buoyant bit first) but the resting on the
>>>substrate is very much the same....
>>>
>>>Wonder if she adds salt?
>>>
>>
>>Dunno. I've just found that a mollie without salt is a slightly
>>stressed mollie. You can keep them in excellent conditions without salt
>>just as you can keep rams and discus at high pH. Problem is, as soon as
>>something else changes, the mollie goes from slightly stressed to very
>>stressed.
>
>
> In the past I have added salt because it is recommended so often. If
> I move a molly to the hospital tank I will add salt as part of the
> treatment, however, I can't say I would recognize a molly as being
> "slightly stressed." Ich, fungus, dropsy, swim bladder symptoms I can
> recognize. Over the last 30 months I have seen lots of mollies die,
> some just die with no symptoms. I had one of my older males die this
> week, looked fine the day before, floating in the morning. I had 4
> males die after separating them from the females, "lost love disease"
> <g>, but I can't say that I can see any change in their behavior when
> I have added salt. The healthy ones must be adapted. I have one
> beautiful male sail fin in a 10 gallon tank, he struts his stuff
> whenever I approach. I have 4 large females in my 75 gallon community
> tank that have lived there and never been ill. So, while respecting
> that mollies may well be more comfortable with salt in their water, I
> wonder how one can tell when a molly is "slightly stressed?"
>
> dick

<g> They die, some with no symptoms. IMO, the sign of subtle stress is
finding a particular species of fish susceptible to disease and
difficult to keep. Sailfin mollies are brackish fish which migrate from
fresh to full salt water, and usually breed in estuaries. Black mollies
are bred from sailfins. Wild mollies don't live in freshwater all year
long, year after year and are apparantly not adapted to it.

I've given up on rams after having one succumb to lymphocystus and one
just die rather than healing from physical damage (caught in a tight
spot). They look fine, and eat fine, but I believe my hard, high pH
water is making them slightly stressed and susceptible to disease.

I am glad to hear that some of your mollies are doing well. Your tank
conditions must be outstanding to be able to keep a large sailfin in
fresh water.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Dick]

On Wed, 25 May 2005 21:39:16 GMT, Elaine T >
wrote:

>Dick wrote:
>> On Tue, 24 May 2005 20:33:58 GMT, Elaine T >
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Gill Passman wrote:
>>>
>>>>Been thinking about it...my dilemma would be moving a diseased fish into a
>>>>healthy tank - maybe if all is still well with the adult Mollie in question
>>>>after a week since the last death I might do that - only problem is I can't
>>>>add salt into the other tank either....
>>>>
>>>>Sorry to hear about your Mollie loss today....I notice Nikki has posted
>>>>about one of her Mollies today with similar symptoms to those that mine had
>>>>(although mine didn't do the buoyant bit first) but the resting on the
>>>>substrate is very much the same....
>>>>
>>>>Wonder if she adds salt?
>>>>
>>>
>>>Dunno. I've just found that a mollie without salt is a slightly
>>>stressed mollie. You can keep them in excellent conditions without salt
>>>just as you can keep rams and discus at high pH. Problem is, as soon as
>>>something else changes, the mollie goes from slightly stressed to very
>>>stressed.
>>
>>
>> In the past I have added salt because it is recommended so often. If
>> I move a molly to the hospital tank I will add salt as part of the
>> treatment, however, I can't say I would recognize a molly as being
>> "slightly stressed." Ich, fungus, dropsy, swim bladder symptoms I can
>> recognize. Over the last 30 months I have seen lots of mollies die,
>> some just die with no symptoms. I had one of my older males die this
>> week, looked fine the day before, floating in the morning. I had 4
>> males die after separating them from the females, "lost love disease"
>> <g>, but I can't say that I can see any change in their behavior when
>> I have added salt. The healthy ones must be adapted. I have one
>> beautiful male sail fin in a 10 gallon tank, he struts his stuff
>> whenever I approach. I have 4 large females in my 75 gallon community
>> tank that have lived there and never been ill. So, while respecting
>> that mollies may well be more comfortable with salt in their water, I
>> wonder how one can tell when a molly is "slightly stressed?"
>>
>> dick
>
><g> They die, some with no symptoms. IMO, the sign of subtle stress is
>finding a particular species of fish susceptible to disease and
>difficult to keep. Sailfin mollies are brackish fish which migrate from
>fresh to full salt water, and usually breed in estuaries. Black mollies
>are bred from sailfins. Wild mollies don't live in freshwater all year
>long, year after year and are apparantly not adapted to it.
>
>I've given up on rams after having one succumb to lymphocystus and one
>just die rather than healing from physical damage (caught in a tight
>spot). They look fine, and eat fine, but I believe my hard, high pH
>water is making them slightly stressed and susceptible to disease.
>
>I am glad to hear that some of your mollies are doing well. Your tank
>conditions must be outstanding to be able to keep a large sailfin in
>fresh water.

I have found so many "rules" that are just individual experiences such
as Clown Loaches growing to 24 inches or feeding rule "stomach is size
of eye" or 1 inch of fish per gallon. I just can't imagine
determining a change in my procedure based on anything so subtle as
being "slightly stressed." I thought you may have noticed something
that I haven't. As for dying with "no symptoms" I have had this
happen with a molly, but had a SAE die the same way. Things happen to
individual fish and I don't change my maintenance because of
individual illness or death. I had one fish die the day after I did
some gardening raising lots of stuff out of the sand. In my mind I
wondered if the stuff had gotten into its gills, but the other 50 fish
in the tank had no problems. So, I continue to prune and stir up
stuff and have suffered no more deaths from gardening.

dick