Damned exploding aquariums

[Ubiquitous]

In rec.games.frp.dnd Milly Roberts > wrote:

: How could you plausibly put an exploding aquarium scene in medieval times?

That's as half-arsed as designing a house based on a water faucet design.

[Milly Roberts]

How could you plausibly put an exploding aquarium scene in medieval times?

[Hong Ooi]

On 10 Jun 2004 03:49:22 -0700, (Milly Roberts) wrote:

>How could you plausibly put an exploding aquarium scene in medieval times?

Delayed blast fireball, duh.


Hong "hi, aquariae people" Ooi
--
Hong Ooi | "Well, that about WANGER up the
| WANGER of your WANGER, Hong.
http://www.zipworld.com.au/~hong/dnd/ | WANGER."
Sydney, Australia | -- MSB

[Julian Richards]

On 10 Jun 2004 03:49:22 -0700, (Milly Roberts)
wrote:

>How could you plausibly put an exploding aquarium scene in medieval times?

Possibly the oddest question in shm this week rivalled only by the one
about depleted uranium crossbow bolts.

You won't be having an aquarium until you have reasonably sized and
suitably high quality glass. Either that or have extremely small
aquarium, hardly able contain a small guppy with glass so that you
could hardly see anything inside. The r.a.m group can have as their
quiz of the week, when was the first aquarium made?

I would have thought that there would have been either no suitable
glass available or at the very least none at a viable cost for such a
job prior to the industrial revolution.

There is also the factor that for a medieval person, fish were food,
nothing else. They came into contact with fish in village and
monastery ponds where they were kept to ensure that fish were
available on a Friday and where the rivers teemed with them in
Medieval times. Salmon was so common that laws were passed forbidding
masters to give it to the boys in their service more than three or
four times a week. Poor old Oliver Twist, born too late. His medieval
counterpart would have been stuffed with steamed, baked, or grilled
salmon.


--

Julian Richards
medieval "at" richardsuk.f9.co.uk

Usenet is how from the comfort of your own living room, you can converse
with people that you would never want in your house.

THIS MESSAGE WAS POSTED FROM SOC.HISTORY.MEDIEVAL

[DM70]

"Milly Roberts" > wrote in message
om...
> How could you plausibly put an exploding aquarium scene in medieval times?

Not sure, but dinner theatres will do anything to make a buck these days.

DM

[Mr. M.J. Lush]

In article >,
Milly Roberts > wrote:
>How could you plausibly put an exploding aquarium scene in medieval times?

Since your posting to rec.games.frp.dnd.... a perminant Wall of Force
or a specially researched Wall of Glass (varient of Wall of Stone)
could make a dandy aquarium.

--
Michael
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~
NPC rights activist | Nameless Abominations are people too.

[Martin Reboul]

"Milly Roberts" > wrote in message
om...
> How could you plausibly put an exploding aquarium scene in medieval times?

Magic, sorcery, clumsy servants, mischievous squires, assassins with crossbows
or inferior glass blowers - there are endless possibilities!

What's in the aquarium....?

[Renia]

Milly Roberts wrote:
> How could you plausibly put an exploding aquarium scene in medieval times?


You couldn't. You'll have to think of something else.

[Tron Furu]

"Julian Richards" > skrev i melding
...
> On 10 Jun 2004 03:49:22 -0700, (Milly Roberts)
> wrote:
>
> >How could you plausibly put an exploding aquarium scene in medieval
times?
>
> Possibly the oddest question in shm this week rivalled only by the one
> about depleted uranium crossbow bolts.
>
> You won't be having an aquarium until you have reasonably sized and
> suitably high quality glass. Either that or have extremely small
> aquarium, hardly able contain a small guppy with glass so that you
> could hardly see anything inside. The r.a.m group can have as their
> quiz of the week, when was the first aquarium made?
>

Why not use a medieaval cathedral stained glass mosaic window technique,
except don't stain the glass tiles?
Stick them together with lead, waterproof it with tar or .... oil-and-chalk
(don't know the name)?

The basin might preferably have stone walls on three sides, with such a
"window" let into the fourth, "viewing" wall. Water pressure could be
contained e.g. by making an "inward dome", convexing the glass wall into the
aquarium (should be a principle well known in the period), or by reinforcing
the lead seams with iron bars, necesitating perhaps a devious seam pattern
able to hide such bars; a fitting challenge for master artisans.

T

[Varl]

"Milly Roberts" > wrote in message
om...
> How could you plausibly put an exploding aquarium scene in medieval times?

Red light, green light gum.

[freakybaby]

Julian Richards > wrote in
:

> On 10 Jun 2004 03:49:22 -0700, (Milly Roberts)
> wrote:
>
>>How could you plausibly put an exploding aquarium scene in medieval
>>times?
>
> Possibly the oddest question in shm this week rivalled only by the one
> about depleted uranium crossbow bolts.
>
> You won't be having an aquarium until you have reasonably sized and
> suitably high quality glass. Either that or have extremely small
> aquarium, hardly able contain a small guppy with glass so that you
> could hardly see anything inside. The r.a.m group can have as their
> quiz of the week, when was the first aquarium made?

This is a fantasy setting what do you require a suitably high quality glass
for? One of two things could be done, use a permanent invisiblity spell or
research a one way invisiblity spell and make it permanent.

[freakybaby]

"DM70" > wrote in
:

>
> "Milly Roberts" > wrote in message
> om...
>> How could you plausibly put an exploding aquarium scene in medieval
>> times?
>
> Not sure, but dinner theatres will do anything to make a buck these
> days.

What some of them should do is spend some money on decent chairs so you are
not busting your back while watching the show.

[freakybaby]

Renia > wrote in
:

> Milly Roberts wrote:
>> How could you plausibly put an exploding aquarium scene in medieval
>> times?
>
>
> You couldn't. You'll have to think of something else.

Come on where is your creativity?

[Julian Richards]

On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 15:15:49 +0200, "Tron Furu" >
wrote:

>Why not use a medieaval cathedral stained glass mosaic window technique,
>except don't stain the glass tiles?
>Stick them together with lead, waterproof it with tar or .... oil-and-chalk
>(don't know the name)?
>
>The basin might preferably have stone walls on three sides, with such a
>"window" let into the fourth, "viewing" wall. Water pressure could be
>contained e.g. by making an "inward dome", convexing the glass wall into the
>aquarium (should be a principle well known in the period), or by reinforcing
>the lead seams with iron bars, necesitating perhaps a devious seam pattern
>able to hide such bars; a fitting challenge for master artisans.

You wouldn't be able to see anything throught the glass. The technical
term for that is a "pond".


--

Julian Richards
medieval "at" richardsuk.f9.co.uk

Usenet is how from the comfort of your own living room, you can converse
with people that you would never want in your house.

THIS MESSAGE WAS POSTED FROM SOC.HISTORY.MEDIEVAL

[Julian Richards]

On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 14:38:42 GMT, freakybaby >
wrote:

>Julian Richards > wrote in
:
>
>> On 10 Jun 2004 03:49:22 -0700, (Milly Roberts)
>> wrote:
>>
>>>How could you plausibly put an exploding aquarium scene in medieval
>>>times?
>>
>> Possibly the oddest question in shm this week rivalled only by the one
>> about depleted uranium crossbow bolts.
>>
>> You won't be having an aquarium until you have reasonably sized and
>> suitably high quality glass. Either that or have extremely small
>> aquarium, hardly able contain a small guppy with glass so that you
>> could hardly see anything inside. The r.a.m group can have as their
>> quiz of the week, when was the first aquarium made?
>
>This is a fantasy setting what do you require a suitably high quality glass
>for? One of two things could be done, use a permanent invisiblity spell or
>research a one way invisiblity spell and make it permanent.

I'm trying to supply the medieval part. If you have the invisibility
spell then you don't need the glass, a ceramic pot would be best.

The problem is that there would still be no medieval aquariums because
medieval people weren't interested in fish, except when cooked.



--

Julian Richards
medieval "at" richardsuk.f9.co.uk

Usenet is how from the comfort of your own living room, you can converse
with people that you would never want in your house.

THIS MESSAGE WAS POSTED FROM SOC.HISTORY.MEDIEVAL

[Robert Huff]

Tron Furu wrote:
> "Julian Richards" > skrev i melding
> ...
>
>>On 10 Jun 2004 03:49:22 -0700, (Milly Roberts)
>>wrote:
>>
>>
>>>How could you plausibly put an exploding aquarium scene in medieval
>
> times?
>
>>Possibly the oddest question in shm this week rivalled only by the one
>>about depleted uranium crossbow bolts.
>>
>>You won't be having an aquarium until you have reasonably sized and
>>suitably high quality glass. Either that or have extremely small
>>aquarium, hardly able contain a small guppy with glass so that you
>>could hardly see anything inside. The r.a.m group can have as their
>>quiz of the week, when was the first aquarium made?
>>
>
>
> Why not use a medieaval cathedral stained glass mosaic window technique,
> except don't stain the glass tiles?
> Stick them together with lead, waterproof it with tar or .... oil-and-chalk
> (don't know the name)?

A history of glass can be found here:
"http://www.glasslinks.com/newsinfo/histppg.htm"

> The basin might preferably have stone walls on three sides, with such a
> "window" let into the fourth, "viewing" wall. Water pressure could be
> contained e.g. by making an "inward dome",

a.k.a. arch


Robert Huff

[Robert Huff]

Julian Richards wrote:

> There is also the factor that for a medieval person, fish were food,
> nothing else.

_Some_ fish were food. Some will never be food; other are edible,
but require too much processing to be eaten except on very special
occasions.
(Side note: a company in Japan has applied for a permit to sell
poison-free pufferfish (a.k.a. "fugu").)


Robert Huff

[Stephenls]

Julian Richards wrote:

> I'm trying to supply the medieval part. If you have the invisibility
> spell then you don't need the glass, a ceramic pot would be best.

> The problem is that there would still be no medieval aquariums because
> medieval people weren't interested in fish, except when cooked.

Unless you /also/ presume magically enhancing food production and
raising standards of living to the point where people are decadent
enough to look at fish as potential pets. But then you're not really
talking medieval anymore.
--
Stephenls
Geek
"I'm as impure as the driven yellow snow." -Spike

[Stephenls]

Martin Reboul wrote:

> Magic, sorcery, clumsy servants, mischievous squires, assassins with crossbows
> or inferior glass blowers - there are endless possibilities!

Ah, there we are. Crappy medieval glass enhanced by some sort of magic
that makes it stronger, then turned into an aquarium. The first
aquarium. The size of my house.

Then somebody uses Dispel Magic in the general vacinity.
--
Stephenls
Geek
"I'm as impure as the driven yellow snow." -Spike

[Prospero]

We had a campaign (quality of glass not with standing) it which the knights
meeting chamber was underground. Right beneath the pond in the courtyard.
The glass window in the ceiling was about 4' by 4' and the pond was shallow
probably only about two feet deep. During a fight, a stray arrow cracked the
glass and sent water and fish down until all involved.

Prospero

Probably coul uses Glassteel, is that still around in 3.5?

[Tim Fitzmaurice]

On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, Mr. M.J. Lush wrote:

> In article >,
> Milly Roberts > wrote:
> >How could you plausibly put an exploding aquarium scene in medieval times?
>
> Since your posting to rec.games.frp.dnd.... a perminant Wall of Force
> or a specially researched Wall of Glass (varient of Wall of Stone)
> could make a dandy aquarium.

Drag Glassteel out of the older editions (Don't remember it in 3E).

The problem with this in terms of the groups is that for all the problems
the historical and aquarium group will pull up DnD rather sidesteps it
with a magic system, both for the tank itself and for the explosion if the
question was for a RPG game session, and if rgfd was included because it
had a medieval theme any answer we might give is going to be heavily
skewed by the fact that the game is a fantasy rather than reality...

Tim
--
When playing rugby, its not the winning that counts, but the taking apart
ICQ: 5178568

[William Black]

"Prospero" > wrote in message
...
> We had a campaign (quality of glass not with standing) it which the
knights
> meeting chamber was underground. Right beneath the pond in the courtyard.

Why?

I mean, why knights, and why underground?

Do medieval farmers who do a bit of fighting in their spare time need to get
together that often?

> The glass window in the ceiling was about 4' by 4' and the pond was
shallow
> probably only about two feet deep.

Again, why?

During a fight, a stray arrow cracked the
> glass and sent water and fish down until all involved.

Oh great, indoor archery...

Now I gave all this toy soldier nonsense up two decades ago, and some games
were plenty weird, but we never ever found anyone daft enough to design an
underwater or subterranean meeting place outside of a James Bond game I was
once inveigled into playing.
..
--
William Black
------------------
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords
is no basis for a system of government

[Kevin N. Haw]

(Milly Roberts) wrote in message >...
> How could you plausibly put an exploding aquarium scene in medieval times?

Well, just stick Jackie Chan in as an NPC and you're halfway there...

But seriously, folks, I take it you want the "knee deep in a flash
flood of water and fish" effect. For that, you can go nonmagical and
have a dike/retaining wall collapse and let in a river to a city
street. Being inside a shinking ship with a massive hull breach would
give you the effect for a short while. If you don't care about the
fish, a collapsing water tower would suffice.

If you want to actually *see* the fishies for effect before the break,
though, you have no choice to go magical (since medieval materials
science would not be up for the task). Perhaps you should go with
exactly what you say, an exploding aquarium. Have a spoiled prince
who loves animals build a menagerie: A zoo with exotic/dangerous
creatures in pens and a big aquarium that uses a glasssteel barrier as
a fifty foot wall for viewing. Perhaps the PCs are chasing an assasin
through the castle and some critters get loose (now, that'd be fun!)
and then someone fires off a dispell magic at the wall... and you're
chest deep in aquatic carnivores! One of the critters inside being
hit by a strength spell or the wall just being poorly engineered for
the beasts inside would be possibilities, too.

You might try the same thing in an underground gallery that opens
upwards into a lake, protected by a force field (the goblin king liked
watching the eels, perhaps). That has an advantage of risking serious
drowning, as opposed to just lasting a few minutes.

Mildly off topic, I remember admin-ing (DM-ing) a TOP SECRET adventure
that took place on a cruise ship with a pool that had a transparent
bottom. People in the lounge could watch the swimmers. The module
had ratings on just how much armor piercing ammo or explosives (things
secret agents tend to have in abundance) it would take to shatter the
pool bottom. You could try something similar in a tavern known for
catering to high level wizards ("Get me another beer and... Oooh!
Look at the mermaids!!")

Not totally on topic, but there's an incident in real life that you
might adapt. There was once a salt mine in Louisiana where a portion
of the tunnels extended beneath a lake. Some guys on another part of
the lake were drilling for oil (natural gas?) and didn't have their
maps straight. As they abandoned their derrick that was getting
sucked into a whirlpool, the guys in the salt mine were wondering
where all the rushing water was coming from. Everyone got evacuated
OK, but in the end the lake completely drained into the tunnels,
ruining both the mine and the lake. You could do the same thing from
the other direction, with your adventurers tunneling upwards from a
cavern into a body of water. Be sure to give them a map, though, to
set up the trap. It wouldn't be fair if they didn't know that the
lake even *existed*. Giving them an incorrect map, however, would be
perfectly fair.

Good luck!

[Julian Richards]

On 10 Jun 2004 12:55:03 -0700, (Kevin N.
Haw) wrote:

(Milly Roberts) wrote in message >...
>> How could you plausibly put an exploding aquarium scene in medieval times?
>
>Well, just stick Jackie Chan in as an NPC and you're halfway there...
>
>But seriously, folks, I take it you want the "knee deep in a flash
>flood of water and fish" effect. For that, you can go nonmagical and
>have a dike/retaining wall collapse and let in a river to a city
>street. Being inside a shinking ship with a massive hull breach would
>give you the effect for a short while. If you don't care about the
>fish, a collapsing water tower would suffice.

A dam break hitting a cathedral wall; glass, fish, medieval and on a
grand scale.

There was a flood of mild ale in London. I believe a large brewery
tank burst putting thousands of gallons out into the street. Several
people were drowned. Oh the inhumanity. So much beer going to waste.
Later than medieval but I don't remember when.


--

Julian Richards
medieval "at" richardsuk.f9.co.uk

Usenet is how from the comfort of your own living room, you can converse
with people that you would never want in your house.

THIS MESSAGE WAS POSTED FROM SOC.HISTORY.MEDIEVAL

[Arkadiusz Bugaj]

Crossbows with uranium bolts in case aquqrium was made of bullet-proof
glass.
Arakdsiusz Bugaj
U¿ytkownik "Martin Reboul" >
napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci ...
>
> "Milly Roberts" > wrote in message
> om...
> > How could you plausibly put an exploding aquarium scene in medieval
times?
>
> Magic, sorcery, clumsy servants, mischievous squires, assassins with
crossbows
> or inferior glass blowers - there are endless possibilities!
>
> What's in the aquarium....?
>
>

[Martin Reboul]

"Robert Huff" > wrote in message
...
> Julian Richards wrote:
>
> > There is also the factor that for a medieval person, fish were food,
> > nothing else.
>
> _Some_ fish were food. Some will never be food; other are edible,
> but require too much processing to be eaten except on very special
> occasions.
> (Side note: a company in Japan has applied for a permit to sell
> poison-free pufferfish (a.k.a. "fugu").)

Don't forget the special goose that could be eaten on Fridays, as it 'came
from the sea'... as served by Clarence, of the 'butt of malmesy' fame .

Hypocrisy is nothing new.

[Peter Jason]

"Julian Richards" > wrote in message
...
> On 10 Jun 2004 03:49:22 -0700, (Milly Roberts)
> wrote:
>
> >How could you plausibly put an exploding aquarium scene in medieval
times?
>
> Possibly the oddest question in shm this week rivalled only by the one
> about depleted uranium crossbow bolts.
>


I demand JUSTICE, because I was the one who brought up the idea of DU bolts
FIRST!

[Martin Reboul]

"Julian Richards" > wrote in message
...
> On 10 Jun 2004 12:55:03 -0700, (Kevin N.
> Haw) wrote:
>
> (Milly Roberts) wrote in message
>...
> >> How could you plausibly put an exploding aquarium scene in medieval
times?
> >
> >Well, just stick Jackie Chan in as an NPC and you're halfway there...
> >
> >But seriously, folks, I take it you want the "knee deep in a flash
> >flood of water and fish" effect. For that, you can go nonmagical and
> >have a dike/retaining wall collapse and let in a river to a city
> >street. Being inside a shinking ship with a massive hull breach would
> >give you the effect for a short while. If you don't care about the
> >fish, a collapsing water tower would suffice.
>
> A dam break hitting a cathedral wall; glass, fish, medieval and on a
> grand scale.
>
> There was a flood of mild ale in London. I believe a large brewery
> tank burst putting thousands of gallons out into the street. Several
> people were drowned. Oh the inhumanity. So much beer going to waste.
> Later than medieval but I don't remember when.

It was only mild - no grete loss!

[Martin Reboul]

"Kevin N. Haw" > wrote in message
om...
> (Milly Roberts) wrote in message
>...
> > How could you plausibly put an exploding aquarium scene in medieval times?
>
> Well, just stick Jackie Chan in as an NPC and you're halfway there...
>
> But seriously, folks, I take it you want the "knee deep in a flash
> flood of water and fish" effect. For that, you can go nonmagical and
> have a dike/retaining wall collapse and let in a river to a city
> street. Being inside a shinking ship with a massive hull breach would
> give you the effect for a short while. If you don't care about the
> fish, a collapsing water tower would suffice.
>
> If you want to actually *see* the fishies for effect before the break,
> though, you have no choice to go magical (since medieval materials
> science would not be up for the task). Perhaps you should go with
> exactly what you say, an exploding aquarium. Have a spoiled prince
> who loves animals build a menagerie: A zoo with exotic/dangerous
> creatures in pens and a big aquarium that uses a glasssteel barrier as
> a fifty foot wall for viewing. Perhaps the PCs are chasing an assasin
> through the castle and some critters get loose (now, that'd be fun!)
> and then someone fires off a dispell magic at the wall... and you're
> chest deep in aquatic carnivores! One of the critters inside being
> hit by a strength spell or the wall just being poorly engineered for
> the beasts inside would be possibilities, too.
>
> You might try the same thing in an underground gallery that opens
> upwards into a lake, protected by a force field (the goblin king liked
> watching the eels, perhaps). That has an advantage of risking serious
> drowning, as opposed to just lasting a few minutes.
>
> Mildly off topic, I remember admin-ing (DM-ing) a TOP SECRET adventure
> that took place on a cruise ship with a pool that had a transparent
> bottom. People in the lounge could watch the swimmers. The module
> had ratings on just how much armor piercing ammo or explosives (things
> secret agents tend to have in abundance) it would take to shatter the
> pool bottom. You could try something similar in a tavern known for
> catering to high level wizards ("Get me another beer and... Oooh!
> Look at the mermaids!!")
>
> Not totally on topic, but there's an incident in real life that you
> might adapt. There was once a salt mine in Louisiana where a portion
> of the tunnels extended beneath a lake. Some guys on another part of
> the lake were drilling for oil (natural gas?) and didn't have their
> maps straight. As they abandoned their derrick that was getting
> sucked into a whirlpool, the guys in the salt mine were wondering
> where all the rushing water was coming from. Everyone got evacuated
> OK, but in the end the lake completely drained into the tunnels,
> ruining both the mine and the lake. You could do the same thing from
> the other direction, with your adventurers tunneling upwards from a
> cavern into a body of water. Be sure to give them a map, though, to
> set up the trap. It wouldn't be fair if they didn't know that the
> lake even *existed*. Giving them an incorrect map, however, would be
> perfectly fair.
>
> Good luck!

I fear we are straying beyond the bounds of strictly 'medieval' here Kevin -
nice though it is!

Surely a clumsy serf slipping on a greasy stair, and pitching a heavy pewter
plate against some weak French glass would suffice?

I'm eagerly looking forward to Milly's response - what is she writing I
wonder?
Cheers
Martin

[Julian Richards]

On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 22:57:20 +0100, "Martin Reboul"
> wrote:

>
>"Julian Richards" > wrote in message
...

>> There was a flood of mild ale in London. I believe a large brewery
>> tank burst putting thousands of gallons out into the street. Several
>> people were drowned. Oh the inhumanity. So much beer going to waste.
>> Later than medieval but I don't remember when.
>
>It was only mild - no grete loss!

No! No! No! I remember now. It was porter. The story was given as an
example of the vast amounts of the stuff that was drunk years ago.

A quick search reveals.

"Vale Brewery’s "Black Beauty" Porter is a revival of a traditional
style of beer which had its origins in the early 18th Century. London
porters (a thirsty breed) liked to drink a blend of different beers,
prompting London brewers to produce a strong ale, dark in colour and
well hopped, to satisfy this preference in a single brew. Porter
tended to be stored in the brewery for a long time before
distribution, often in huge (million-pint!) vats. In 1814 Meux’s Horse
Shoe brewery on the corner of Tottenham Court Road and Oxford Street
became famous when their huge vat of porter burst open. Houses were
swept away in the resulting flood and eight people drowned. It is said
that many became intoxicated by drinking from the liquid flowing along
the streets. Fortunately, only 36 pints were available at the Drayton
St Leonard Beer Festival."



--

Julian Richards
medieval "at" richardsuk.f9.co.uk

Usenet is how from the comfort of your own living room, you can converse
with people that you would never want in your house.

THIS MESSAGE WAS POSTED FROM SOC.HISTORY.MEDIEVAL

[Martin Reboul]

"Julian Richards" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 22:57:20 +0100, "Martin Reboul"
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >"Julian Richards" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> >> There was a flood of mild ale in London. I believe a large brewery
> >> tank burst putting thousands of gallons out into the street. Several
> >> people were drowned. Oh the inhumanity. So much beer going to waste.
> >> Later than medieval but I don't remember when.
> >
> >It was only mild - no grete loss!
>
> No! No! No! I remember now. It was porter. The story was given as an
> example of the vast amounts of the stuff that was drunk years ago.
>
> A quick search reveals.
>
> "Vale Brewery's "Black Beauty" Porter is a revival of a traditional
> style of beer which had its origins in the early 18th Century. London
> porters (a thirsty breed) liked to drink a blend of different beers,
> prompting London brewers to produce a strong ale, dark in colour and
> well hopped, to satisfy this preference in a single brew. Porter
> tended to be stored in the brewery for a long time before
> distribution, often in huge (million-pint!) vats. In 1814 Meux's Horse
> Shoe brewery on the corner of Tottenham Court Road and Oxford Street
> became famous when their huge vat of porter burst open. Houses were
> swept away in the resulting flood and eight people drowned. It is said
> that many became intoxicated by drinking from the liquid flowing along
> the streets. Fortunately, only 36 pints were available at the Drayton
> St Leonard Beer Festival."

Strewth! That was a big vat!

IIRC, a guy drowned in one a couple of years back. I suppose there are worse
ways to die....which brings me, inevitably, to the death of George, Duke of
Clarence.

Legend has it that he was drowned in a butt of malmesy, having been given the
choice of how he was to die by his brother, Edward IV. Personally, I believe
this is how he died, in the buttery of the Tower of London, for several
reasons. What does everyone else think I wonder?

I have seen it dismissed as an apocryphal reference to his over indulgent
nature (he was notoriously garrulous, reckless and careless, and 'liked a
drop' for sure, as did Ed). By any modern definition, both men (and most of
their contemporary friends) would have been classed as 'alcoholics', and booze
no doubt saw a lot of them off to an early grave. In fact, Shakespeare
himself, who fixed the legend in our minds forever, sounds as if he was a
victim himself at a fairly early age (suspiciously similar symptoms to
pancreatitus), not that it matters.

Cheers
Martin

[Peter Jason]

"Martin Reboul" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Julian Richards" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 22:57:20 +0100, "Martin Reboul"
> > > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >"Julian Richards" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> > >> There was a flood of mild ale in London. I believe a large brewery
> > >> tank burst putting thousands of gallons out into the street. Several
> > >> people were drowned. Oh the inhumanity. So much beer going to waste.
> > >> Later than medieval but I don't remember when.
> > >
> > >It was only mild - no grete loss!
> >
> > No! No! No! I remember now. It was porter. The story was given as an
> > example of the vast amounts of the stuff that was drunk years ago.
> >
> > A quick search reveals.
> >
> > "Vale Brewery's "Black Beauty" Porter is a revival of a traditional
> > style of beer which had its origins in the early 18th Century. London
> > porters (a thirsty breed) liked to drink a blend of different beers,
> > prompting London brewers to produce a strong ale, dark in colour and
> > well hopped, to satisfy this preference in a single brew. Porter
> > tended to be stored in the brewery for a long time before
> > distribution, often in huge (million-pint!) vats. In 1814 Meux's Horse
> > Shoe brewery on the corner of Tottenham Court Road and Oxford Street
> > became famous when their huge vat of porter burst open. Houses were
> > swept away in the resulting flood and eight people drowned. It is said
> > that many became intoxicated by drinking from the liquid flowing along
> > the streets. Fortunately, only 36 pints were available at the Drayton
> > St Leonard Beer Festival."
>
> Strewth! That was a big vat!
>
> IIRC, a guy drowned in one a couple of years back. I suppose there are
worse
> ways to die....which brings me, inevitably, to the death of George, Duke
of
> Clarence.
>
> Legend has it that he was drowned in a butt of malmesy, having been given
the
> choice of how he was to die by his brother, Edward IV. Personally, I
believe
> this is how he died, in the buttery of the Tower of London, for several
> reasons. What does everyone else think I wonder?
>
> I have seen it dismissed as an apocryphal reference to his over indulgent
> nature (he was notoriously garrulous, reckless and careless, and 'liked a
> drop' for sure, as did Ed). By any modern definition, both men (and most
of
> their contemporary friends) would have been classed as 'alcoholics', and
booze
> no doubt saw a lot of them off to an early grave. In fact, Shakespeare
> himself, who fixed the legend in our minds forever, sounds as if he was a
> victim himself at a fairly early age (suspiciously similar symptoms to
> pancreatitus), not that it matters.
>
> Cheers
> Martin
>
>

My concern is for the poor people who drank the malmesy afterwards.

[Sorcier]

Milly Roberts wrote:

> How could you plausibly put an exploding aquarium scene in medieval times?

Glasssteel with Crystal Brittle?

[Sorcier]

Renia wrote:

> Milly Roberts wrote:
>
>> How could you plausibly put an exploding aquarium scene in medieval
>> times?
>
> You couldn't. You'll have to think of something else.

Time travel!

[Sorcier]

William Black wrote:

>
> Now I gave all this toy soldier nonsense up two decades ago, and some games
> were plenty weird, but we never ever found anyone daft enough to design an
> underwater or subterranean meeting place outside of a James Bond game I was
> once inveigled into playing.

You haven't lived twice.

[Lorenz Lang]

Sorcier > wrote in message >...
> Milly Roberts wrote:
>
> > How could you plausibly put an exploding aquarium scene in medieval times?
>
> Glasssteel with Crystal Brittle?

Do these still exist in 3.5? Couldn't find them in the SRD...

LL

[Nockermensch]

Renia > wrote in message >...
> Milly Roberts wrote:
> > How could you plausibly put an exploding aquarium scene in medieval times?
>
>
> You couldn't. You'll have to think of something else.

Best answer ever!

--
@ @ Nockermensch, giving credit where credit is due.

[Nockermensch]

"William Black" > wrote in message >...
> "Prospero" > wrote in message
> ...
> > We had a campaign (quality of glass not with standing) it which the
> knights
> > meeting chamber was underground. Right beneath the pond in the courtyard.
>
> Why?
>
> I mean, why knights, and why underground?
>
> Do medieval farmers who do a bit of fighting in their spare time need to get
> together that often?

They're not medieval, they're superheroes in full-plates living in a
late renascence world with lots of modern conforts. Haven't you READ
the rulebook?

> > The glass window in the ceiling was about 4' by 4' and the pond was
> shallow
> > probably only about two feet deep.
>
> Again, why?

Cool ambient light. Gotta love the iridescence effects on the walls.
Also, great for those times when the meeting halts to a tense stop.
Look up and relax watching the fishies.

> During a fight, a stray arrow cracked the
> > glass and sent water and fish down until all involved.
>
> Oh great, indoor archery...

Sure, why not? Do people stop being good targets only because there's
a ceiling above them?

> Now I gave all this toy soldier nonsense up two decades ago, and some games
> were plenty weird, but we never ever found anyone daft enough to design an
> underwater or subterranean meeting place outside of a James Bond game I was
> once inveigled into playing.

I feel sad for you. Do you want to talk about it?

--
@ @ Nockermensch, fuzzy and friendly

[Julian Richards]

On 11 Jun 2004 06:07:49 -0700, (Nockermensch)
wrote:

>> Oh great, indoor archery...
>
>Sure, why not? Do people stop being good targets only because there's
>a ceiling above them?

The arrow is a ranged weapon. Up close it is no good. The time taken
to loose off an arrow in painfully slow compared to drawing a bladed
weapon and using it (quite literally painfully). Even a sword is at
something of a disadvantage. Daggers, cudgels, fists and boots, up
close and personal.

Talhoffer's illustrations show swordsmen close in to one another
dropping their swords because there is no longer any room to use them
and going in for a wrestling throw.


--

Julian Richards
medieval "at" richardsuk.f9.co.uk

Usenet is how from the comfort of your own living room, you can converse
with people that you would never want in your house.

THIS MESSAGE WAS POSTED FROM SOC.HISTORY.MEDIEVAL

[JB]

"Julian Richards" > wrote in message
...
> On 11 Jun 2004 06:07:49 -0700, (Nockermensch)
> wrote:
>
> >> Oh great, indoor archery...
> >
> >Sure, why not? Do people stop being good targets only because there's
> >a ceiling above them?
>
> The arrow is a ranged weapon. Up close it is no good.

Indoors <> Up close.

> The time taken
> to loose off an arrow in painfully slow compared to drawing a bladed
> weapon and using it (quite literally painfully).

Estimates say that medieval longbowmen should fire between 10-12 arrows
per minute. In D&D this can be faster but then again they are usually
super heroes in leather armour (who make sure there are obstructions in
the between you and your target). I believe fish can't use bows at all.
(Just to stay on topic for all 3 groups).

> Even a sword is at
> something of a disadvantage. Daggers, cudgels, fists and boots, up
> close and personal.
>
> Talhoffer's illustrations show swordsmen close in to one another
> dropping their swords because there is no longer any room to use them
> and going in for a wrestling throw.

In D&D we call that grappling. That's what happens when at least one of
the two combatants doesn't want to use their sword anymore.

[Hong Ooi]

On Fri, 11 Jun 2004 15:17:53 +0100, "JB" > wrote:

>I believe fish can't use bows at all.

Prove it.


--
Hong Ooi | "Well, that about WANGER up the
| WANGER of your WANGER, Hong.
http://www.zipworld.com.au/~hong/dnd/ | WANGER."
Sydney, Australia | -- MSB

[JB]

"Hong Ooi" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 11 Jun 2004 15:17:53 +0100, "JB" > wrote:
>
> >I believe fish can't use bows at all.
>
> Prove it.

Do you *see* any arrow slits?

http://www.petdiscounters.com/aquarium/ornaments/poly/ar_605_fairy_tale_ca
stle.jpg

[Julian Richards]

On Fri, 11 Jun 2004 15:17:53 +0100, "JB" > wrote:


>Estimates say that medieval longbowmen should fire between 10-12 arrows
>per minute. In D&D this can be faster but then again they are usually
>super heroes in leather armour (who make sure there are obstructions in
>the between you and your target). I believe fish can't use bows at all.
>(Just to stay on topic for all 3 groups).

Way too slow. Fractions of a second for the blade to be on its way,
.. with the loss of concentration that gives the archer. That is why
medieval archers often carried knives and short swords.

>> Even a sword is at
>> something of a disadvantage. Daggers, cudgels, fists and boots, up
>> close and personal.
>>
>> Talhoffer's illustrations show swordsmen close in to one another
>> dropping their swords because there is no longer any room to use them
>> and going in for a wrestling throw.
>
>In D&D we call that grappling. That's what happens when at least one of
>the two combatants doesn't want to use their sword anymore.

Talhoffer called it grappling too (but in Swabian) and I believe that
he used the term earlier (1467). If you D+D and want to know more
about authentic fight techniques, look at

http://www.thehaca.com/Manuals/talhoffer.htm

He had plenty of moves that the D+D stuff knows nothing about ie the
"murder stroke".



--

Julian Richards
medieval "at" richardsuk.f9.co.uk

Usenet is how from the comfort of your own living room, you can converse
with people that you would never want in your house.

THIS MESSAGE WAS POSTED FROM SOC.HISTORY.MEDIEVAL

[William Black]

"Nockermensch" > wrote in message
...
> "William Black" > wrote in message
>...

> > During a fight, a stray arrow cracked the
> > > glass and sent water and fish down until all involved.
> >
> > Oh great, indoor archery...
>
> Sure, why not? Do people stop being good targets only because there's
> a ceiling above them?

Way too slow, way too close.

A little old lady with a knitting needle is as effective as an archer in a
crowded room, possibly more so if she sharpens her knitting needles.

>
> > Now I gave all this toy soldier nonsense up two decades ago, and some
games
> > were plenty weird, but we never ever found anyone daft enough to design
an
> > underwater or subterranean meeting place outside of a James Bond game I
was
> > once inveigled into playing.
>
> I feel sad for you. Do you want to talk about it?

Not really, I gave all the figures and games away to the children of
friends years ago.

--
William Black
------------------
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords
is no basis for a system of government

[William Black]

"JB" > wrote in message
...

> > The time taken
> > to loose off an arrow in painfully slow compared to drawing a bladed
> > weapon and using it (quite literally painfully).
>
> Estimates say that medieval longbowmen should fire between 10-12 arrows
> per minute. In D&D this can be faster but then again they are usually
> super heroes in leather armour (who make sure there are obstructions in
> the between you and your target). I believe fish can't use bows at all.
> (Just to stay on topic for all 3 groups).

Six seconds a shot, assuming you're ready and have arrows available and
have one nocked when you start.

You're dead about three seconds in when a great big sharp sword cuts you in
nice neat quivering gobbets.

That's assuming they haven't developed thrusting swords yet...

--
William Black
------------------
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords
is no basis for a system of government

[William Black]

"Martin Reboul" > wrote in message
...

> Don't forget the special goose that could be eaten on Fridays, as it 'came
> from the sea'... as served by Clarence, of the 'butt of malmesy' fame .

Barnacle Goose, believed to grow from the barnacle because of the pattern
on the wings.

And exactly which of the three sons of the Duke of York would you be
prepared to accuse of breaking his Easter fast?

Edward? Swish, thud, sound of head hitting floor...

Richard? Shring, slice, spray of blood as you hear the sound of dagger
going into back.

It only leaves poor old George who won't kill you dead as mutton if you
criticise him

--
William Black
------------------
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords
is no basis for a system of government

[JB]

William Black wrote:
> "JB" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>
>>>The time taken
>>>to loose off an arrow in painfully slow compared to drawing a bladed
>>>weapon and using it (quite literally painfully).
>>
>>Estimates say that medieval longbowmen should fire between 10-12 arrows
>>per minute. In D&D this can be faster but then again they are usually
>>super heroes in leather armour (who make sure there are obstructions in
>>the between you and your target). I believe fish can't use bows at all.
>>(Just to stay on topic for all 3 groups).
>
>
> Six seconds a shot, assuming you're ready and have arrows available and
> have one nocked when you start.
>
> You're dead about three seconds in when a great big sharp sword cuts you in
> nice neat quivering gobbets.

Assuming your enemy is up close to begin with. D&D "models" this by
giving a melee weapon wielder an Attack or Opportunity against anyone
trying to fire a ranged weapon. This will usually be lethal unless
you're one of the afore mentioned super heroes in plate mail.

> That's assuming they haven't developed thrusting swords yet...

Bah. You medieval historians. Folk in antiquity had perfectly good
thrusting swords! :)

[JB]

Julian Richards wrote:

> On Fri, 11 Jun 2004 15:17:53 +0100, "JB" > wrote:
>
>
>
>>Estimates say that medieval longbowmen should fire between 10-12 arrows
>>per minute. In D&D this can be faster but then again they are usually
>>super heroes in leather armour (who make sure there are obstructions in
>>the between you and your target). I believe fish can't use bows at all.
>>(Just to stay on topic for all 3 groups).
>
>
> Way too slow. Fractions of a second for the blade to be on its way,
> . with the loss of concentration that gives the archer. That is why
> medieval archers often carried knives and short swords.

Assuming you start close and your targets movement is unobstructed
(hopefully it is obstructed by your allies).

>
>>>Even a sword is at
>>>something of a disadvantage. Daggers, cudgels, fists and boots, up
>>>close and personal.
>>>
>>>Talhoffer's illustrations show swordsmen close in to one another
>>>dropping their swords because there is no longer any room to use them
>>>and going in for a wrestling throw.
>>
>>In D&D we call that grappling. That's what happens when at least one of
>>the two combatants doesn't want to use their sword anymore.
>
>
> Talhoffer called it grappling too (but in Swabian) and I believe that
> he used the term earlier (1467). If you D+D and want to know more
> about authentic fight techniques, look at
>
> http://www.thehaca.com/Manuals/talhoffer.htm

Yeah I've seen it before. I think someone quoted it in a fairly recent
Western vs Eastern metallurgy and combat flame war.

> He had plenty of moves that the D+D stuff knows nothing about ie the
> "murder stroke".

You may find that D&D has moved on a bit since you last heard anything
about it. It's still a high fantasy, non realistic game but it makes
more sense these days.

[Tetsubo]

Hong Ooi wrote:

>On Fri, 11 Jun 2004 15:17:53 +0100, "JB" > wrote:
>
>
>
>>I believe fish can't use bows at all.
>>
>>
>
>Prove it.
>
>
>
>
Archer Fish. Duh.

--
Tetsubo
My page: http://home.comcast.net/~tetsubo/
--------------------------------------
If fifty million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing.
-- Anatole France

[Kevin N. Haw]

> > ... drowned in a butt of malmesy...
>
> My concern is for the poor people who drank the malmesy afterwards.

Reminds me of the story about Lord Nelson, who was killed at the
Battle of Trafalgar. His body was preserved in a barrel of spirits to
prevent decomposition during transport back to England. The legend
goes that when the barrel was opened, the level of spirits had dropped
notably from when the body was placed inside. I heard somewhere
(sorry, no sources to cite) that this was probably to be expected and
the tissues absorbed the fluid. The general belief/legend, however,
was that crewmembers broke into the barrel and took extra rations!

Mmmmm! You won't see *that* on the food channel.

As a bonus, when searching this out, I discovered that rum has been
refered to as "Nelson's blood" in the British Navy as a result of this
legend, even though "brandy and spirit of wine" were the actual
spirits in Nelson's barrel (http://www.airmuseum.ca/robert13.html).

[Stephenls]

William Black wrote:

> A little old lady with a knitting needle is as effective as an archer in a
> crowded room, possibly more so if she sharpens her knitting needles.

Dude, watch Lord of the Rings. Legalas, like, stabs people with arrows
and then shoots other people 5 feet away with the same arrow he used to
stab people.

Are you telling me Peter Jackson is a liar?
--
Stephenls
Geek
"I'm as impure as the driven yellow snow." -Spike

[Michael Kuettner]

"Nockermensch" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
> "William Black" > wrote in message
>...
> > "Prospero" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > We had a campaign (quality of glass not with standing) it which the
> > knights
> > > meeting chamber was underground. Right beneath the pond in the
courtyard.
> >
> > Why?
> >
> > I mean, why knights, and why underground?
> >
> > Do medieval farmers who do a bit of fighting in their spare time need to
get
> > together that often?
>
> They're not medieval, they're superheroes in full-plates living in a
> late renascence world with lots of modern conforts. Haven't you READ
> the rulebook?
<snip>

Haven't you READ the headers ?
William was answering from shm.
I guess you're posting from rgf.
You see the problem ?
OK.
Now to my question :
If they are superheroes, what do they need full-plate armour for ?
As a metal corset to form their beer - bellies into pectoral muscles
(the male metal push-up bra) ?

I've never needed such nonsense when I was Spiderman.

Cheers,

Petrus Parker

[Martin Reboul]

"William Black" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Martin Reboul" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > Don't forget the special goose that could be eaten on Fridays, as it 'came
> > from the sea'... as served by Clarence, of the 'butt of malmesy' fame .
>
> Barnacle Goose, believed to grow from the barnacle because of the pattern
> on the wings.
>
> And exactly which of the three sons of the Duke of York would you be
> prepared to accuse of breaking his Easter fast?
>
> Edward? Swish, thud, sound of head hitting floor...
>
> Richard? Shring, slice, spray of blood as you hear the sound of dagger
> going into back.
>
> It only leaves poor old George who won't kill you dead as mutton if you
> criticise him

It was indeed the Duke of Clarence, who had it served (I think) at a feast to
celebrate his marriage to Isobel Neville.

[Nockermensch]

Hong Ooi > wrote in message >...
> On Fri, 11 Jun 2004 15:17:53 +0100, "JB" > wrote:
>
> >I believe fish can't use bows at all.
>
> Prove it.

You forgot the offenses and the asterisks.

--
@ @ Nockermensch, next time, do it right.

[William Black]

"JB" > wrote in message
...

> > That's assuming they haven't developed thrusting swords yet...
>
> Bah. You medieval historians. Folk in antiquity had perfectly good
> thrusting swords! :)

When I used to play RPGs the model was very much Western Europe.

The swords available were a rather odd bunch that didn't encompass real
swords in any serious fashion. In that it resembled most RPGs I am familiar
with, perhaps things have changed since 1985...

But there was lots of detail in other areas, who remembers all those odd
staff weapons described in 'The Strategic Review' years ago?

Mind you, when I first played D&D it was to develop officers for a
miniatures game called 'Chainmail'!

However it didn't work until the second supplement came out...

--
William Black
------------------
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords
is no basis for a system of government

[~consul]

Mr. M.J. Lush wrote:
> Milly Roberts > wrote:
>>How could you plausibly put an exploding aquarium scene in medieval times?
> Since your posting to rec.games.frp.dnd.... a perminant Wall of Force
> or a specially researched Wall of Glass (varient of Wall of Stone)
> could make a dandy aquarium.

Or the GlassSteel spell. Unless they got rid of it in 3.5 ...
--
"... respect, all good works are not done by only good folk ..."
-till next time, Jameson Stalanthas Yu -x- <<poetry.dolphins-cove.com>>
((remove the INVALID to email))

[Bradd W. Szonye]

JB > wrote:
>
> "Hong Ooi" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Fri, 11 Jun 2004 15:17:53 +0100, "JB" > wrote:
>>
>> >I believe fish can't use bows at all.
>>
>> Prove it.
>
> Do you *see* any arrow slits?
>
> http://www.petdiscounters.com/aquarium/ornaments/poly/ar_605_fairy_tale_castle.jpg

POTD!
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd

[Peter Jason]

"Kevin N. Haw" > wrote in message
om...
> > > ... drowned in a butt of malmesy...
> >
> > My concern is for the poor people who drank the malmesy afterwards.
>
> Reminds me of the story about Lord Nelson, who was killed at the
> Battle of Trafalgar. His body was preserved in a barrel of spirits to
> prevent decomposition during transport back to England. The legend
> goes that when the barrel was opened, the level of spirits had dropped
> notably from when the body was placed inside. I heard somewhere
> (sorry, no sources to cite) that this was probably to be expected and
> the tissues absorbed the fluid. The general belief/legend, however,
> was that crewmembers broke into the barrel and took extra rations!
>
> Mmmmm! You won't see *that* on the food channel.
>
> As a bonus, when searching this out, I discovered that rum has been
> refered to as "Nelson's blood" in the British Navy as a result of this
> legend, even though "brandy and spirit of wine" were the actual
> spirits in Nelson's barrel (http://www.airmuseum.ca/robert13.html).

Quite so. It is not suprising that rum was issued on battleships to bolster
the courage of the sailors when engaging the enemy. In such circumstances
Dutch courage would be as useful as any other sort. To this day sailors are
notorious drinkers and more than one commander in the navy here has been
drummed out of the service (albeit discreetly) for being drunk during
manouvers, such as ramming a destoyer amidships. Tsk tsk!

Also, the duke of Marborough's soldiers had gin ladled down their throats
for that same purpose (there were gin wagons), and the survivors of his
campaings brought the habit back to 18th century England to ill effect.

And then in WWII and Vietnam there was booze, speed, horse, etc to steel the
resolve of some soldiers. Has it ever been different?

[Tron Furu]

"Peter Jason" > skrev i melding
...
>
> And then in WWII and Vietnam there was booze, speed, horse, etc to steel
the
> resolve of some soldiers. Has it ever been different?

Sparta?

T

[Peter Jason]

"Tron Furu" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Peter Jason" > skrev i melding
> ...
> >
> > And then in WWII and Vietnam there was booze, speed, horse, etc to steel
> the
> > resolve of some soldiers. Has it ever been different?
>
> Sparta?
>
> T
>
>

I think their heads were crammed with the "Peer pressure" thing from
childhood.

[Hong Ooi]

"Michael Kuettner" > wrote in message >...
> Now to my question :
> If they are superheroes, what do they need full-plate armour for ?
> As a metal corset to form their beer - bellies into pectoral muscles
> (the male metal push-up bra) ?
>
> I've never needed such nonsense when I was Spiderman.
>

Goddammit, *I'M* Spiderman.


*HONG*

[Stephenls]

Michael Kuettner wrote:

> If they are superheroes, what do they need full-plate armour for ?

For the same reason Superman needs a cape.

> I've never needed such nonsense when I was Spiderman.

Spider-Man just has tights. Likewise, some D&D characters wear sensible
heavily enchanted leather armor, rather than metal bits.
--
Stephenls
Geek
"I'm as impure as the driven yellow snow." -Spike

[Bernardz]

In article >, mill1223
@yahoo.com says...
> How could you plausibly put an exploding aquarium scene in medieval times?
>

Easy. A fishmonger taking his fish to market puts too much water into a
pot full of fish and the pot breaks.


--
History records those that write what happened.

Observations of Bernard - No 60

[Bryan Derksen]

On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 23:40:39 +0100, Julian Richards >
wrote:
>No! No! No! I remember now. It was porter. The story was given as an
>example of the vast amounts of the stuff that was drunk years ago.

And a somewhat similar disaster, though drifting well away from the
topic aquaria at this point;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Molasses_Disaster

The Boston Molasses Disaster occurred in the North End neighborhood of
Boston, Massachusetts at the Purity Distilling Company facility on
January 15, 1919. At the time, molasses was America's primary
sweetener, used to make all types of confectionery, and also rum.

A 50 ft (15 m) tall molasses tank containing as much as 2.5 million
gallons (9,500 m³ or 9,500,000 liters) of molasses exploded. The
explosion was of sufficient force to cut the girders of the nearby
elevated railroad and lift a train off the rails. Some nearby
buildings were also collapsed by the blast. The molasses flowed out in
a wave between 8 and 15 ft (2.5 to 4.5 m) high, moving at 35 mph (56
km/h) and exerting a force of 2 ton/ft² (20,000 kg/m²). Twenty-one
people were killed and 150 injured as the hot molasses crushed,
asphyxiated, and cooked many of the victims to death. It took over six
months to remove the molasses from the cobblestone streets, theaters,
businesses, automobiles, and homes. The harbor ran brown until summer.
Purity Distilling paid out $1 million in damages.

The cause of the accident is not known with certainty. It is thought
the tank may have been overfilled due to the impending passage of
Prohibition, or it may have burst due to fermentation occurring
within, or by the unusual increase in the local temperatures that
occurred over the previous day (the air temperature rose from 2°F to
40°F over that period).

[Renia]

Bernardz wrote:

> In article >, mill1223
> @yahoo.com says...
>
>>How could you plausibly put an exploding aquarium scene in medieval times?
>>
>
>
> Easy. A fishmonger taking his fish to market puts too much water into a
> pot full of fish and the pot breaks.

Twaddle. The fishmonger would have used a cart with the fish on ice from
a Kelvinator.

Renia

[Tim Fitzmaurice]

On Fri, 11 Jun 2004, Julian Richards wrote:

> On Fri, 11 Jun 2004 15:17:53 +0100, "JB" > wrote:
>
>
> >Estimates say that medieval longbowmen should fire between 10-12 arrows
> >per minute. In D&D this can be faster but then again they are usually
> >super heroes in leather armour (who make sure there are obstructions in
> >the between you and your target). I believe fish can't use bows at all.
> >(Just to stay on topic for all 3 groups).
>
> Way too slow. Fractions of a second for the blade to be on its way,
> . with the loss of concentration that gives the archer. That is why

Modelled in what is an abstract and fantastic combat system by Attacks of
opportunity....at low level thats potentially lethal blunders.

> >In D&D we call that grappling. That's what happens when at least one of
> >the two combatants doesn't want to use their sword anymore.
>
> Talhoffer called it grappling too (but in Swabian) and I believe that
> he used the term earlier (1467). If you D+D and want to know more
> about authentic fight techniques, look at

Authentic combat does not work in an abstract model, nor one where damage
and so on is modelled in a fantastic/heroic fashion. Trying to get too
detailed has the tendency to break the model as you introduce specifics
for things that are generally considered to be how a sensible combatant
behaves and distrub the balance.

> He had plenty of moves that the D+D stuff knows nothing about ie the
> "murder stroke".

Well we do have coup de grace moves now.... :)

What it boils down to is DnD extrapolates from a medieval base and should
not be considered to be related more than that, and reality unfortunately
sets aside. There are other RPG systems which try to model combat and
activity more accurately - those could get into all sorts of details.

Tim
--
When playing rugby, its not the winning that counts, but the taking apart
ICQ: 5178568

[Limnophile]

If you have the technology to mine uranium, centrifuge it or use gas
diffraction to refine it, and the metallurgical skills to make a bolt out of
it ; WHY BOTHER ?

Lasers, cannons, or rockets would do a better job without requiring nearly
as much effort .

Of course, depleted uranium arrows or bolts get extra credit for "coolness"
.....

Limnophile

"Peter Jason" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Julian Richards" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On 10 Jun 2004 03:49:22 -0700, (Milly Roberts)
> > wrote:
> >
> > >How could you plausibly put an exploding aquarium scene in medieval
> times?
> >
> > Possibly the oddest question in shm this week rivalled only by the one
> > about depleted uranium crossbow bolts.
> >
>
>
> I demand JUSTICE, because I was the one who brought up the idea of DU
bolts
> FIRST!
>
>
>

[William Black]

"Tim Fitzmaurice" > wrote in message
news:Pine.SOL.3.96.1040612110904.13534A-

> What it boils down to is DnD extrapolates from a medieval base and should
> not be considered to be related more than that,

Actually it extrapolates from a set of miniatures rules that weren't that
good in the first place.

It never did relate to anything medieval.

--
William Black
------------------
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords
is no basis for a system of government

[Julian Richards]

On Sat, 12 Jun 2004 11:12:55 +0100, Tim Fitzmaurice
> wrote:

>On Fri, 11 Jun 2004, Julian Richards wrote:

>> He had plenty of moves that the D+D stuff knows nothing about ie the
>> "murder stroke".
>
>Well we do have coup de grace moves now.... :)

From Talhoffer

"Der mortschlag" "The "Murder-stroke."

http://www.thehaca.com/talhoffer/t33.htm

Basically using the sword "the wrong way around" and have the weight
crack the top of the opponent's head.


--

Julian Richards
medieval "at" richardsuk.f9.co.uk

Usenet is how from the comfort of your own living room, you can converse
with people that you would never want in your house.

THIS MESSAGE WAS POSTED FROM SOC.HISTORY.MEDIEVAL

[Hong Ooi]

On Fri, 11 Jun 2004 22:07:03 -0700, Stephenls > wrote:

>Michael Kuettner wrote:
>
>> If they are superheroes, what do they need full-plate armour for ?
>
>For the same reason Superman needs a cape.

His WINGS are like a SHIELD OF STEEL!


--
Hong Ooi | "Well, that about WANGER up the
| WANGER of your WANGER, Hong.
http://www.zipworld.com.au/~hong/dnd/ | WANGER."
Sydney, Australia | -- MSB

[Martin Reboul]

"Hong Ooi" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 11 Jun 2004 15:17:53 +0100, "JB" > wrote:
>
> >I believe fish can't use bows at all.
>
> Prove it.

The Archer Fish - doesn't even need a bow.

[Donald Tsang]

Martin Reboul > wrote:
>"Hong Ooi" > wrote:
>>"JB" > wrote:
>> >I believe fish can't use bows at all.
>>
>> Prove it.
>
>The Archer Fish - doesn't even need a bow.

How does that prove anything about whether or not fish can use bowls?

Donald

[Martin Reboul]

"Donald Tsang" > wrote in message
...
> Martin Reboul > wrote:
> >"Hong Ooi" > wrote:
> >>"JB" > wrote:
> >> >I believe fish can't use bows at all.
> >>
> >> Prove it.
> >
> >The Archer Fish - doesn't even need a bow.
>
> How does that prove anything about whether or not fish can use bowls?

They use them to live in - surely that counts?

[Arian]

Hong Ooi wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Jun 2004 22:07:03 -0700, Stephenls > wrote:
>
>
>>Michael Kuettner wrote:
>>
>>
>>>If they are superheroes, what do they need full-plate armour for ?
>>
>>For the same reason Superman needs a cape.
>
>
> His WINGS are like a SHIELD OF STEEL!

<grin> I know what you've been watching lately, you fink.

--
Arian

Address me by name at North-net (with no hyphen), a 3-letter company
trading in the great south land.

[Tron Furu]

"Peter Jason" > skrev i melding
...
>
> "Tron Furu" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Peter Jason" > skrev i melding
> > ...
> > >
> > > And then in WWII and Vietnam there was booze, speed, horse, etc to
steel
> > the
> > > resolve of some soldiers. Has it ever been different?
> >
> > Sparta?
> >
> > T
> >
> >
>
> I think their heads were crammed with the "Peer pressure" thing from
> childhood.


What you are saying is that no man willingly, or easily, takes another man's
life - provided he is "normal" - and will not do so without something that
induces him to overcome this natural inhibition; and in this respect drugs
and the dread of social sanctions are on the same level. Which may be true.

However ... IIRC the topic was "dutch courage", i.e. the administration of
.... hm ... (chemical) anti-inhibitors (is there a proper word for that?
"Stimulants"?). The most famous "drug-killers", I guess, are the Assassins,
or Hashishim (?), and there are mythological creatures like toadstool-eating
Berserkers and hemp seed fume inhaling Scythians. (Gin and rum for army and
navy, WWII benzedrine, Vietnam "uppers" and "downers" and beer drinking
english football hooligans are more, like, a part of the western cultural
heritage, and as such to be considered as normal goal achievement directed
expedience devices.) I thought that the point of your post was to say that
this use of stimulants is the universal remedy for soldiers. Aren't there
some corps who do without the liquid esprit? Sparta was the first to spring
to mind, and AFAIK they did not indulge in any drug enhancement of their
martial qualities. Perhaps the Crusaders didn't, either .... some of them
.... or a very few of them .. but drugs don't seem conformable to the ideal
of the "Christian Knight"; not even alcohol, at least not in excess.

T

[Tim Fitzmaurice]

On Sat, 12 Jun 2004, William Black wrote:

>
> "Tim Fitzmaurice" > wrote in message
> news:Pine.SOL.3.96.1040612110904.13534A-
>
> > What it boils down to is DnD extrapolates from a medieval base and should
> > not be considered to be related more than that,
>
> Actually it extrapolates from a set of miniatures rules that weren't that
> good in the first place.
>
> It never did relate to anything medieval.

Sure castles, crossbows, keeps, polearms etc had nothing to do with any
medieval inspiration in the slightest...high fantasy was not associated
with that sort of era ever and had no influence, it was always just a set
of mechanics from chainmail...

I said extrapolated from the base, which it does..they took some ideas and
played with them to make something different.

Tim
--
When playing rugby, its not the winning that counts, but the taking apart
ICQ: 5178568

[JB]

William Black wrote:
> "JB" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>
>>>That's assuming they haven't developed thrusting swords yet...
>>
>>Bah. You medieval historians. Folk in antiquity had perfectly good
>>thrusting swords! :)
>
>
> When I used to play RPGs the model was very much Western Europe.

The basic model still is in that most setting assumptions in D&D are
based on what appears to be late medieval Europe.

That said there are anachronistic elements and some things blatantly
taken from Eastern inspiration (unless Bernard of Clairveaux *was* an
expert martial artist).

> The swords available were a rather odd bunch that didn't encompass real
> swords in any serious fashion. In that it resembled most RPGs I am familiar
> with, perhaps things have changed since 1985...

A lot has changed since 1985. There are weapons based on real medieval
ones and there are some that are blatant fantasy.

[JB]

William Black wrote:

> "Tim Fitzmaurice" > wrote in message
> news:Pine.SOL.3.96.1040612110904.13534A-
>
>
>>What it boils down to is DnD extrapolates from a medieval base and should
>>not be considered to be related more than that,
>
>
> Actually it extrapolates from a set of miniatures rules that weren't that
> good in the first place.

Much evolution has occured.

> It never did relate to anything medieval.

It has much in common with SHM then (and I can say that as a fairly
regular lurker)!

It's not a game of medieval simulation but a lot of us interested in
history or creating detail for our game worlds start with (for example)
Medieval demographics and work from there.

[William Black]

"Tim Fitzmaurice" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 12 Jun 2004, William Black wrote:
>
> >
> > "Tim Fitzmaurice" > wrote in message
> > news:Pine.SOL.3.96.1040612110904.13534A-
> >
> > > What it boils down to is DnD extrapolates from a medieval base and
should
> > > not be considered to be related more than that,
> >
> > Actually it extrapolates from a set of miniatures rules that weren't
that
> > good in the first place.
> >
> > It never did relate to anything medieval.
>
> Sure castles, crossbows, keeps, polearms etc had nothing to do with any
> medieval inspiration in the slightest...high fantasy was not associated
> with that sort of era ever and had no influence, it was always just a set
> of mechanics from chainmail...

It actually evolved from 'Chainmail', as you say. But 'Chainmail' evolved
from a set of WWII rules called 'Tractics'.

They just welded rather odd approximations of medieval weapons onto systems
used for armoured vehicle combat.

Which is why the armoured men in D&D operate far more like a tank fitted
with a battering ram or a giant can opener than an armoured man

--
William Black
------------------
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords
is no basis for a system of government

[Julian Richards]

On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 10:37:36 +0000 (UTC), JB > wrote:

>That said there are anachronistic elements and some things blatantly
>taken from Eastern inspiration (unless Bernard of Clairveaux *was* an
>expert martial artist).

There is your mistake. Medieval Europe had several very good martial
arts for the unarmed fighter. Talhoffer includes some but one of the
greats in that type of fighting was a Jewish wrestler called Ott, of
which very little is known.

"Ott, a Jewish wrestling master who served the noble Hapsburg family
of Austria. Ott's style of unarmed defense resembled the jujitsu of
the Japanese bushi in many respects. The pragmatic art of close combat
in the West favored neutralizing the opponent swiftly through joint
locks and takedowns. Unlike modern karate or tae kwon do, there was
little emphasis on kicks and punches in the medieval fighting arts,
though these certainly did exist."


--

Julian Richards
medieval "at" richardsuk.f9.co.uk

Usenet is how from the comfort of your own living room, you can converse
with people that you would never want in your house.

THIS MESSAGE WAS POSTED FROM SOC.HISTORY.MEDIEVAL

[Nockermensch]

"Michael Kuettner" > wrote in message >...
> "Nockermensch" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> ...
> > "William Black" > wrote in message
> >...
> > > "Prospero" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > We had a campaign (quality of glass not with standing) it which the
> knights
> > > > meeting chamber was underground. Right beneath the pond in the
> courtyard.
> > >
> > > Why?
> > >
> > > I mean, why knights, and why underground?
> > >
> > > Do medieval farmers who do a bit of fighting in their spare time need to
> get
> > > together that often?
> >
> > They're not medieval, they're superheroes in full-plates living in a
> > late renascence world with lots of modern conforts. Haven't you READ
> > the rulebook?
> <snip>
>
> Haven't you READ the headers ?
> William was answering from shm.
> I guess you're posting from rgf.
> You see the problem ?

Ah, ok. They must be those 1st edition guys who still DM Greyhawk.
They must think that all wizards use beards and conical hats too.

> Now to my question :
> If they are superheroes, what do they need full-plate armour for ?
> As a metal corset to form their beer - bellies into pectoral muscles
> (the male metal push-up bra) ?

It's a GENRE thing, you silly. They use full plates by the same reason
they speaketh ye olde English.

--
@ @ Nockermensch, if you only read the rulebooks, it'll become clearer

[William Black]

"Nockermensch" > wrote in message
om...
> "Michael Kuettner" > wrote in message
>...

> > Haven't you READ the headers ?
> > William was answering from shm.
> > I guess you're posting from rgf.
> > You see the problem ?
>
> Ah, ok. They must be those 1st edition guys who still DM Greyhawk.
> They must think that all wizards use beards and conical hats too.

Well yes, the first set of D&D I saw did have a woodgrain paper cover :-)

However it was when AD&D Edition 2 came out that I and my contemporise
realised that it was someone's pension fund and opted out into stuff like
'Paranoia' and 'Privateers and Gentlemen' which had at least the excuse of
witty rules and the possibility of entertaining conversations.

Complex combat systems are a sop to bad role playing by people not bright
enough to talk their way out of certain death.

--
William Black
------------------
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords
is no basis for a system of government

[Stephenls]

William Black wrote:

> Complex combat systems are a sop to bad role playing by people not bright
> enough to talk their way out of certain death.

Alternately, they're for people who like complex combat systems. Kinda
like there are video games where combat consists of "Press X repeatedly"
and there are video games where the special moves counter each other
five layers deep and you need to memorize what each and every move looks
like so you know how to counter it when it's used against you, and there
are people who enjoy both types.
--
Stephenls
Geek
"I'm as impure as the driven yellow snow." -Spike

[William Black]

"Stephenls" > wrote in message
...
> William Black wrote:
>
> > Complex combat systems are a sop to bad role playing by people not
bright
> > enough to talk their way out of certain death.
>
> Alternately, they're for people who like complex combat systems. Kinda
> like there are video games where combat consists of "Press X repeatedly"
> and there are video games where the special moves counter each other
> five layers deep and you need to memorize what each and every move looks
> like so you know how to counter it when it's used against you, and there
> are people who enjoy both types.

Nope, they're all games.

No difference.

That's the point.

--
William Black
------------------
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords
is no basis for a system of government

[Stephenls]

William Black wrote:

> Nope, they're all games.

> No difference.

> That's the point.

There is no difference between Tetris and Axis & Allies?
--
Stephenls
Geek
"I'm as impure as the driven yellow snow." -Spike

[JB]

Julian Richards wrote:
> On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 10:37:36 +0000 (UTC), JB > wrote:
>
>
>>That said there are anachronistic elements and some things blatantly
>>taken from Eastern inspiration (unless Bernard of Clairveaux *was* an
>>expert martial artist).
>
>
> There is your mistake. Medieval Europe had several very good martial
> arts for the unarmed fighter. Talhoffer includes some but one of the
> greats in that type of fighting was a Jewish wrestler called Ott, of
> which very little is known.

Yes, yes we know what WE had but I'm not talking about having martial
arts. I'm talking about martial artist monks who channel "Ki" and
"quivering hand" their opponents to death.

[JB]

William Black wrote:

> Complex combat systems are a sop to bad role playing by people not bright
> enough to talk their way out of certain death.

Nice to see this old fallacy being trotted out again.

[William Black]

"JB" > wrote in message
...
> William Black wrote:
>
> > Complex combat systems are a sop to bad role playing by people not
bright
> > enough to talk their way out of certain death.
>
> Nice to see this old fallacy being trotted out again.

I'll take your non refutation of the argument as agreement with dissent.

That you for playing...

--
William Black
------------------
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords
is no basis for a system of government

[William Black]

"Stephenls" > wrote in message
...
> William Black wrote:
>
> > Nope, they're all games.
>
> > No difference.
>
> > That's the point.
>
> There is no difference between Tetris and Axis & Allies?

'Tetris' isn't a 'game' in that sense.

There is no adversary, there is no ending, there is no narrative.

--
William Black
------------------
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords
is no basis for a system of government

[Stephenls]

William Black wrote:

> 'Tetris' isn't a 'game' in that sense.

> There is no adversary, there is no ending, there is no narrative.

Right.

So... there's no meaningful difference between Monopoly and tennis,
then? What does that say about people who like one but not the other?
--
Stephenls
Geek
"I'm as impure as the driven yellow snow." -Spike

[Julian Richards]

On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 20:50:54 +0000 (UTC), JB > wrote:

>Yes, yes we know what WE had but I'm not talking about having martial
>arts. I'm talking about martial artist monks who channel "Ki" and
>"quivering hand" their opponents to death.

I still suspect that Ott could slap most of them silly.



--

Julian Richards
medieval "at" richardsuk.f9.co.uk

Usenet is how from the comfort of your own living room, you can converse
with people that you would never want in your house.

THIS MESSAGE WAS POSTED FROM SOC.HISTORY.MEDIEVAL

[Hong Ooi]

On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 22:38:06 +0100, "William Black" >
wrote:

>
>"JB" > wrote in message
...
>> William Black wrote:
>>
>> > Complex combat systems are a sop to bad role playing by people not
>bright
>> > enough to talk their way out of certain death.
>>
>> Nice to see this old fallacy being trotted out again.
>
>I'll take your non refutation of the argument as agreement with dissent.
>
>That you for playing...

You are Michael Scott Brown and I claim my hasty rant on multiclassed
characters.


--
Hong Ooi | "Well, that about WANGER up the
| WANGER of your WANGER, Hong.
http://www.zipworld.com.au/~hong/dnd/ | WANGER."
Sydney, Australia | -- MSB

[Bernardz]

In article >,
says...
> Bernardz wrote:
>
> > In article >, mill1223
> > @yahoo.com says...
> >
> >>How could you plausibly put an exploding aquarium scene in medieval times?
> >>
> >
> >
> > Easy. A fishmonger taking his fish to market puts too much water into a
> > pot full of fish and the pot breaks.
>
> Twaddle. The fishmonger would have used a cart with the fish on ice from
> a Kelvinator.
>
> Renia
>


Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Given a choice, the consumer prefers fresh fish to frozen fish.



--
History records those that write what happened.

Observations of Bernard - No 60

[Christopher Adams]

Julian Richards wrote:
> JB wrote:
>
>> Yes, yes we know what WE had but I'm not talking about having martial
>> arts. I'm talking about martial artist monks who channel "Ki" and
>> "quivering hand" their opponents to death.
>
> I still suspect that Ott could slap most of them silly.

IS THIS YOUR GOD
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Talhoffer

--
Christopher Adams
What part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nath Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you
understand?

You're not a bad person. You're a terrific person. You're my favorite person.
But every once in a while you just can be a real ****.
- Bill

[Christopher Adams]

William Black wrote:
> Stephenls wrote:
>> William Black wrote:
>
>>> Nope, they're all games.
>>
>>> No difference.
>>
>>> That's the point.
>>
>> There is no difference between Tetris and Axis & Allies?
>
> 'Tetris' isn't a 'game' in that sense.
>
> There is no adversary, there is no ending, there is no narrative.

"No true Scotsman" fallacy wrapped up in a non-declaration of biases.

Lame.

--
Christopher Adams
What part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nath Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you
understand?

You're not a bad person. You're a terrific person. You're my favorite person.
But every once in a while you just can be a real ****.
- Bill

[Julian Richards]

On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 09:31:00 GMT, "Christopher Adams"
> wrote:

>Julian Richards wrote:
>> JB wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, yes we know what WE had but I'm not talking about having martial
>>> arts. I'm talking about martial artist monks who channel "Ki" and
>>> "quivering hand" their opponents to death.
>>
>> I still suspect that Ott could slap most of them silly.
>
>IS THIS YOUR GOD
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Talhoffer

God, hardly. But as an example of a medieval bloke who can put himself
about, he is a very good example, especially as his book is one of the
few to survive.



--

Julian Richards
medieval "at" richardsuk.f9.co.uk

Usenet is how from the comfort of your own living room, you can converse
with people that you would never want in your house.

THIS MESSAGE WAS POSTED FROM SOC.HISTORY.MEDIEVAL

[William Black]

"Stephenls" > wrote in message
...
> William Black wrote:
>
> > 'Tetris' isn't a 'game' in that sense.
>
> > There is no adversary, there is no ending, there is no narrative.
>
> Right.
>
> So... there's no meaningful difference between Monopoly and tennis,
> then? What does that say about people who like one but not the other?

Of course there is.

One is exercise, the other is a game.

Or do you think that tennis results are not predictable?

--
William Black
------------------
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords
is no basis for a system of government

[William Black]

"Hong Ooi" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 22:38:06 +0100, "William Black" >
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"JB" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> William Black wrote:
> >>
> >> > Complex combat systems are a sop to bad role playing by people not
> >bright
> >> > enough to talk their way out of certain death.
> >>
> >> Nice to see this old fallacy being trotted out again.
> >
> >I'll take your non refutation of the argument as agreement with dissent.
> >
> >That you for playing...
>
> You are Michael Scott Brown and I claim my hasty rant on multiclassed
> characters.

Who?

I've been out of RPGs for twenty odd years now.

The song changes but the melody remains the same.

--
William Black
------------------
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords
is no basis for a system of government

[Martin Reboul]

"William Black" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Nockermensch" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "William Black" > wrote in message
> >...
>
> > > During a fight, a stray arrow cracked the
> > > > glass and sent water and fish down until all involved.
> > >
> > > Oh great, indoor archery...
> >
> > Sure, why not? Do people stop being good targets only because there's
> > a ceiling above them?
>
> Way too slow, way too close.
>
> A little old lady with a knitting needle is as effective as an archer in a
> crowded room, possibly more so if she sharpens her knitting needles.
>
> >
> > > Now I gave all this toy soldier nonsense up two decades ago, and some
> games
> > > were plenty weird, but we never ever found anyone daft enough to design
> an
> > > underwater or subterranean meeting place outside of a James Bond game I
> was
> > > once inveigled into playing.
> >
> > I feel sad for you. Do you want to talk about it?
>
> Not really, I gave all the figures and games away to the children of
> friends years ago.

When did you last make an Airfix model William? Does the sound of one being
shaken in its box still cause a twinge of excitement.... be honest now!

I think that is the acid test when it comes to 'growing up', in my case
anyway. I realise not everyone likes Airfix models of course (particularly my
parents, and all my ex- partners oddly enough).
Cheers
Martin

PS. Maybe if I find a partner who likes Airfix models, there will be no more
ex-'s?

[Stephenls]

William Black wrote:

> Of course there is.

> One is exercise, the other is a game.

> Or do you think that tennis results are not predictable?

Your definition of "game" appears to be far more narrow than that of
every other English speaker on the planet. Indeed, if one defines games
as "things that are very much like [hypothetical platonic ideal of
game]," then all games are very much alike.

Is hide-and-seek a game under your definition?
--
Stephenls
Geek
"I'm as impure as the driven yellow snow." -Spike

[Julian Richards]

On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 18:39:40 +0100, "Martin Reboul"
> wrote:


>When did you last make an Airfix model William? Does the sound of one being
>shaken in its box still cause a twinge of excitement.... be honest now!
>
>I think that is the acid test when it comes to 'growing up', in my case
>anyway. I realise not everyone likes Airfix models of course (particularly my
>parents, and all my ex- partners oddly enough).
> Cheers
> Martin
>
>PS. Maybe if I find a partner who likes Airfix models, there will be no more
>ex-'s?

Boys never grow up, they just get better toys.

http://www.extremefightingmachines.co.uk/cgi-bin/discus/board-profile.cgi?action=view_profile&profile=julian-users




--

Julian Richards
medieval "at" richardsuk.f9.co.uk

Usenet is how from the comfort of your own living room, you can converse
with people that you would never want in your house.

THIS MESSAGE WAS POSTED FROM SOC.HISTORY.MEDIEVAL

[Grethe]

"Tron Furu" > skrev i en meddelelse
...
>
> "Peter Jason" > skrev i melding
> ...
> >
> > "Tron Furu" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "Peter Jason" > skrev i melding
> > > ...
> > > >
> > > > And then in WWII and Vietnam there was booze, speed, horse, etc to
> steel
> > > the
> > > > resolve of some soldiers. Has it ever been different?
> > >
> > > Sparta?
> > >
> > > T
> > >
> > >
> >
> > I think their heads were crammed with the "Peer pressure" thing from
> > childhood.
>
>
> What you are saying is that no man willingly, or easily, takes another
man's
> life - provided he is "normal" - and will not do so without something that
> induces him to overcome this natural inhibition; and in this respect drugs
> and the dread of social sanctions are on the same level. Which may be
true.
>
> However ... IIRC the topic was "dutch courage", i.e. the administration of
> ... hm ... (chemical) anti-inhibitors (is there a proper word for that?
> "Stimulants"?). The most famous "drug-killers", I guess, are the
Assassins,
> or Hashishim (?), and there are mythological creatures like
toadstool-eating
> Berserkers and hemp seed fume inhaling Scythians. (Gin and rum for army
and
> navy, WWII benzedrine, Vietnam "uppers" and "downers" and beer drinking
> english football hooligans are more, like, a part of the western cultural
> heritage, and as such to be considered as normal goal achievement directed
> expedience devices.) I thought that the point of your post was to say
that
> this use of stimulants is the universal remedy for soldiers. Aren't there
> some corps who do without the liquid esprit? Sparta was the first to
spring
> to mind, and AFAIK they did not indulge in any drug enhancement of their
> martial qualities. Perhaps the Crusaders didn't, either .... some of them
> ... or a very few of them .. but drugs don't seem conformable to the ideal
> of the "Christian Knight"; not even alcohol, at least not in excess.
>
> T

I've read somewhere that the Roman and Greeks attributed
special qualities to parsley and gave the gladiators lots of parsley
in order to pump up their muscles.Parsley is an immense valuable
contribution of nutrition.
Maybe the Spartans were "drugged" in the same way??

Cheers
Grethe

[Tron Furu]

"Grethe" > skrev i melding
. ..
>

>
> I've read somewhere that the Roman and Greeks attributed
> special qualities to parsley and gave the gladiators lots of parsley
> in order to pump up their muscles.Parsley is an immense valuable
> contribution of nutrition.
> Maybe the Spartans were "drugged" in the same way??
>
So you suggest they were "vegetarian bodybuilders"?
Well, as a drug habit, that is rather ... well, spartan.
Perhaps that is where the word comes from.

T

[Grethe]

"Tron Furu" > skrev i en meddelelse
...
>
> "Grethe" > skrev i melding
> . ..
> >
>
> >
> > I've read somewhere that the Roman and Greeks attributed
> > special qualities to parsley and gave the gladiators lots of parsley
> > in order to pump up their muscles.Parsley is an immense valuable
> > contribution of nutrition.
> > Maybe the Spartans were "drugged" in the same way??
> >
> So you suggest they were "vegetarian bodybuilders"?
> Well, as a drug habit, that is rather ... well, spartan.
> Perhaps that is where the word comes from.
>
> T
>
Much is said about parsley - also that the Romans believed
that parsley worn as wreaths around their neck prevented
drunkenness! `:)

G

[Tron Furu]

"Grethe" > skrev i melding
. ..
>
> "Tron Furu" > skrev i en meddelelse
> ...
> >
> > "Grethe" > skrev i melding
> > . ..
> > >
> >
> > >
> > > I've read somewhere that the Roman and Greeks attributed
> > > special qualities to parsley and gave the gladiators lots of parsley
> > > in order to pump up their muscles.Parsley is an immense valuable
> > > contribution of nutrition.
> > > Maybe the Spartans were "drugged" in the same way??
> > >
> > So you suggest they were "vegetarian bodybuilders"?
> > Well, as a drug habit, that is rather ... well, spartan.
> > Perhaps that is where the word comes from.
> >
> > T
> >
> Much is said about parsley - also that the Romans believed
> that parsley worn as wreaths around their neck prevented
> drunkenness! `:)

It does, if the wreath is really thick and goes from the neck well up to the
eyes.

T

[JB]

"Martin Reboul" > wrote in
message ...

> When did you last make an Airfix model William? Does the sound of one
being
> shaken in its box still cause a twinge of excitement.... be honest now!
>
> I think that is the acid test when it comes to 'growing up', in my case
> anyway. I realise not everyone likes Airfix models of course
(particularly my
> parents, and all my ex- partners oddly enough).

Nah. Growing up is accepting the fact that you still get excited by Airfix
models (if you ever did).

[Grethe]

"Tron Furu" > skrev i en meddelelse
...
>
> "Grethe" > skrev i melding
> . ..
> >
> > "Tron Furu" > skrev i en meddelelse
> > ...
> > >
> > > "Grethe" > skrev i melding
> > > . ..
> > > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > I've read somewhere that the Roman and Greeks attributed
> > > > special qualities to parsley and gave the gladiators lots of parsley
> > > > in order to pump up their muscles.Parsley is an immense valuable
> > > > contribution of nutrition.
> > > > Maybe the Spartans were "drugged" in the same way??
> > > >
> > > So you suggest they were "vegetarian bodybuilders"?
> > > Well, as a drug habit, that is rather ... well, spartan.
> > > Perhaps that is where the word comes from.
> > >
> > > T
> > >
> > Much is said about parsley - also that the Romans believed
> > that parsley worn as wreaths around their neck prevented
> > drunkenness! `:)
>
> It does, if the wreath is really thick and goes from the neck well up to
the
> eyes.
>
> T
>

Hmmmmm! Still room for a straw! `:)

G

[Hong Ooi]

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 10:40:24 +0100, "JB" > wrote:

>
>"Martin Reboul" > wrote in
>message ...
>
>> When did you last make an Airfix model William? Does the sound of one
>being
>> shaken in its box still cause a twinge of excitement.... be honest now!
>>
>> I think that is the acid test when it comes to 'growing up', in my case
>> anyway. I realise not everyone likes Airfix models of course
>(particularly my
>> parents, and all my ex- partners oddly enough).
>
>Nah. Growing up is accepting the fact that you still get excited by Airfix
>models (if you ever did).
>

Sad but true: I still get excited by the Airfix swimsuit models.


Hong "they go really well with the aquariae" Ooi
--
Hong Ooi | "Well, that about WANGER up the
| WANGER of your WANGER, Hong.
http://www.zipworld.com.au/~hong/dnd/ | WANGER."
Sydney, Australia | -- MSB

[William Black]

> On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 18:39:40 +0100, "Martin Reboul"
> > wrote:
>
>
> >When did you last make an Airfix model William? Does the sound of one
being
> >shaken in its box still cause a twinge of excitement.... be honest now!

About 1968, and I always did prefer Revell <sp>

Then I joined a wargames club that didn't allow plastic figures...

--
William Black
------------------
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords
is no basis for a system of government

[Michael Kuettner]

"Stephenls" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
> William Black wrote:
>
> > Of course there is.
>
> > One is exercise, the other is a game.
>
> > Or do you think that tennis results are not predictable?
>
> Your definition of "game" appears to be far more narrow than that of
> every other English speaker on the planet. Indeed, if one defines games
> as "things that are very much like [hypothetical platonic ideal of
> game]," then all games are very much alike.
>
> Is hide-and-seek a game under your definition?

Wrong question.

The right question for any red-blooded Brit would be :
"Is cricket a game or a religion ?"
;-)

Cheers,

Michael Kuettner

[Julian Richards]

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 19:57:23 +0200, "Michael Kuettner"
> wrote:

>Wrong question.
>
>The right question for any red-blooded Brit would be :
>"Is cricket a game or a religion ?"

To which the answer is, it is far more important than either.


--

Julian Richards
medieval "at" richardsuk.f9.co.uk

Usenet is how from the comfort of your own living room, you can converse
with people that you would never want in your house.

THIS MESSAGE WAS POSTED FROM SOC.HISTORY.MEDIEVAL

[Michael Kuettner]

"Hong Ooi" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
om...
> "Michael Kuettner" > wrote in message
>...
> > Now to my question :
> > If they are superheroes, what do they need full-plate armour for ?
> > As a metal corset to form their beer - bellies into pectoral muscles
> > (the male metal push-up bra) ?
> >
> > I've never needed such nonsense when I was Spiderman.
> >
>
> Goddammit, *I'M* Spiderman.
>
>
> *HONG*

Liar !

You're posting from Down Under.
Everybody knows that Spidermans net would twirl counterclockwise
down there (because of the Coriolis force) and thusly be useless.
And my Kung Fu is mightier than yours, too.

With a secret super-heroic handshake,

Michael Kuettner

[Robert Singers]

Out from under a rock popped Michael Kuettner and said

> You're posting from Down Under.

Nah he's an Austrian.

--
Rob Singers
"All your Ron are belong to us"
Credo Elvem ipsum etiam vivere

[Michael Kuettner]

"Julian Richards" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
> On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 19:57:23 +0200, "Michael Kuettner"
> > wrote:
>
> >Wrong question.
> >
> >The right question for any red-blooded Brit would be :
> >"Is cricket a game or a religion ?"
>
> To which the answer is, it is far more important than either.
>
Spoilsport !
You can't give the correct answer _before_ the quarreling
has started !
To abuse Heinrich Heine (Die Grenadiere) :

"Was schert mich Weib, was schert mich Kind,
ich trag' weit bess'res Verlangen -
Soll'n sie betteln gehn wenn sie hungrig sind,
hat Cricket schon angefangen ?"
;-)

Cheers,

Michael Kuettner

[Michael Kuettner]

"Robert Singers" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:Xns950A7268A9C6Ersingers@IP-Hidden...
> Out from under a rock popped Michael Kuettner and said
>
> > You're posting from Down Under.
>
> Nah he's an Austrian.
>
We Australians know that !
And don't even try to talk about kangaroohs -
then it'll get personal !

No worries, matey,

Michael Kuettner

[Martin Reboul]

"Hong Ooi" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 10:40:24 +0100, "JB" > wrote:
>
> >
> >"Martin Reboul" > wrote in
> >message ...
> >
> >> When did you last make an Airfix model William? Does the sound of one
> >being
> >> shaken in its box still cause a twinge of excitement.... be honest now!
> >>
> >> I think that is the acid test when it comes to 'growing up', in my case
> >> anyway. I realise not everyone likes Airfix models of course
> >(particularly my
> >> parents, and all my ex- partners oddly enough).
> >
> >Nah. Growing up is accepting the fact that you still get excited by Airfix
> >models (if you ever did).
> >
>
> Sad but true: I still get excited by the Airfix swimsuit models.

I don't thing I ever made one of those? Maybe it was just the glue....

[Martin Reboul]

"JB" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Martin Reboul" > wrote in
> message ...
>
> > When did you last make an Airfix model William? Does the sound of one
> being
> > shaken in its box still cause a twinge of excitement.... be honest now!
> >
> > I think that is the acid test when it comes to 'growing up', in my case
> > anyway. I realise not everyone likes Airfix models of course
> (particularly my
> > parents, and all my ex- partners oddly enough).
>
> Nah. Growing up is accepting the fact that you still get excited by Airfix
> models (if you ever did).

Blast!

[Martin Reboul]

"Michael Kuettner" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Nockermensch" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> ...
> > "William Black" > wrote in message
> >...
> > > "Prospero" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > We had a campaign (quality of glass not with standing) it which the
> > > knights
> > > > meeting chamber was underground. Right beneath the pond in the
> courtyard.
> > >
> > > Why?
> > >
> > > I mean, why knights, and why underground?
> > >
> > > Do medieval farmers who do a bit of fighting in their spare time need to
> get
> > > together that often?
> >
> > They're not medieval, they're superheroes in full-plates living in a
> > late renascence world with lots of modern conforts. Haven't you READ
> > the rulebook?
> <snip>
>
> Haven't you READ the headers ?
> William was answering from shm.
> I guess you're posting from rgf.
> You see the problem ?
> OK.
> Now to my question :
> If they are superheroes, what do they need full-plate armour for ?
> As a metal corset to form their beer - bellies into pectoral muscles
> (the male metal push-up bra) ?
>
> I've never needed such nonsense when I was Spiderman.

Ironman may have chosen to differ?

[JB]

"Michael Kuettner" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Stephenls" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> ...
> > William Black wrote:
> >
> > > Of course there is.
> >
> > > One is exercise, the other is a game.
> >
> > > Or do you think that tennis results are not predictable?
> >
> > Your definition of "game" appears to be far more narrow than that of
> > every other English speaker on the planet. Indeed, if one defines
games
> > as "things that are very much like [hypothetical platonic ideal of
> > game]," then all games are very much alike.
> >
> > Is hide-and-seek a game under your definition?
>
> Wrong question.
>
> The right question for any red-blooded Brit would be :
> "Is cricket a game or a religion ?"
> ;-)

<Shakes head sadly>

Despite our been mugged by the French the only game is Football.

[Doug McDonald]

Could somebody please explain to me the
connection of this thread to exploding aquariums?

Doug McDonald

[William Black]

"Martin Reboul" > wrote in message
...

> BTW, is it true that one sniff of WD40 can cause great embarrassment and
even
> get one black-balled from some of the more extreme medieval re-enactment
> groups? My friend Malcolm was terrified that he would be tainted forever
after
> we had to spray him with two tins following a thunderstorm in full
plate....

Good grief no.

The group I'm in has a rather fierce reputation and the haze of WD-40 fumes
rises over the camp fire of damp evenings like a sort of techno fog.

Real fanatics get the tubes of Solvol and an old toothbrush out.

In certain circles it is more important to glitter than to be accurate.

The goose grease and sand is for the tourists.

To inject a historical note, nobody actually knows how good a finish the
medievals actually got on their 'white' plates, there isn't any left that
hasn't been messed with. It certainly doesn't seem to have been the mirror
perfection you see on modern harness.

--
William Black
------------------
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords
is no basis for a system of government

[Prospero]

Why is it that the historical campaign people assume that others can't have
a fantasy campaign. This is the problem with cross posting.

>>"Do medieval farmers who do a bit of fighting in their spare time need to
get
together that often?"

Prospero

[Michael Kuettner]

"JB" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
.. .
>
> "Michael Kuettner" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Stephenls" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> > ...
> > > William Black wrote:
> > >
> > > > Of course there is.
> > >
> > > > One is exercise, the other is a game.
> > >
> > > > Or do you think that tennis results are not predictable?
> > >
> > > Your definition of "game" appears to be far more narrow than that of
> > > every other English speaker on the planet. Indeed, if one defines
> games
> > > as "things that are very much like [hypothetical platonic ideal of
> > > game]," then all games are very much alike.
> > >
> > > Is hide-and-seek a game under your definition?
> >
> > Wrong question.
> >
> > The right question for any red-blooded Brit would be :
> > "Is cricket a game or a religion ?"
> > ;-)
>
> <Shakes head sadly>
>
> Despite our been mugged by the French the only game is Football.
>
>
Can't you be excommunicated for statements like that ?

I'd like to make some snide comments about British football here
but considering the "quality" of the Austrian national team I'll keep
my mouth firmly shut ;-).

Cheers,

Michael Kuettner

[Michael Kuettner]

"Doug McDonald" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
> Could somebody please explain to me the
> connection of this thread to exploding aquariums?
>
Fish swim.
Super villains often own cats.
Cats eat fish and like to sharpen their claws on wood.
Wood drifts and so do threads.

Clearer now ? ;-)

Cheers,

Michael Kuettner

[Michael Kuettner]

"Martin Reboul" > schrieb im
Newsbeitrag ...
>
> "Michael Kuettner" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
<snip>

> > Now to my question :
> > If they are superheroes, what do they need full-plate armour for ?
> > As a metal corset to form their beer - bellies into pectoral muscles
> > (the male metal push-up bra) ?
> >
> > I've never needed such nonsense when I was Spiderman.
>
> Ironman may have chosen to differ?
>
Who is Ironman ?

Those super heroes really breed like lice ...

Anybody out there who didn't get bitten by a radioactive spider
or escaped from an exploding planet or had radioactive waste
spilled into his eyes or had his parents killed as a boy or has
fallen in the hands of the Canadians who did some unmentionable
things to his body?

Cheers,

Michael Kuettner

[JB]

"Michael Kuettner" > wrote in message
...
>
> "JB" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> .. .

> > > The right question for any red-blooded Brit would be :
> > > "Is cricket a game or a religion ?"
> > > ;-)
> >
> > <Shakes head sadly>
> >
> > Despite our been mugged by the French the only game is Football.
> >
> >
> Can't you be excommunicated for statements like that ?

Hopefully!

> I'd like to make some snide comments about British football here

Nothing seriously wrong with English Football (can't say the same about
the rest of Britain) at the moment. We've only lost two competitive games
under Sven and they were against the two so called best teams in the
world. Pretty unlucky both times too but more so against France. Even
*their* players admitted that.

> but considering the "quality" of the Austrian national team I'll keep
> my mouth firmly shut ;-).

Look on the bright side. At least you aren't German*!

* To be fair though it looks like they've got one or two talented
youngsters coming through.

[Robert Singers]

JB startled all and sundry by ejaculating the following words of wisdom

> Nothing seriously wrong with English Football (can't say the same about
> the rest of Britain) at the moment. We've only lost two competitive games
> under Sven and they were against the two so called best teams in the
> world. Pretty unlucky both times too but more so against France. Even
> *their* players admitted that.

Oh that football. You're losing the other kind too.

--
Rob Singers
"All your Ron are belong to us"

[JB]

"Robert Singers" > wrote in message
news:Xns950BE4DA85F41rsingers@IP-Hidden...
> JB startled all and sundry by ejaculating the following words of wisdom
>
> > Nothing seriously wrong with English Football (can't say the same
about
> > the rest of Britain) at the moment. We've only lost two competitive
games
> > under Sven and they were against the two so called best teams in the
> > world. Pretty unlucky both times too but more so against France. Even
> > *their* players admitted that.
>
> Oh that football. You're losing the other kind too.

We're not losing this kind, one unlucky game that's all! All we have to do
is beat Switzerland this afternoon and Croatia in a few days to guarantee
qualification to the next round then we can avenge ourselves by beating
France in the final.

As for the Rugby, I have no comment to make at this time :)

[Doug McDonald]

Michael Kuettner wrote:
> "Doug McDonald" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> ...
>
>>Could somebody please explain to me the
>>connection of this thread to exploding aquariums?
>>
>
> Fish swim.
> Super villains often own cats.
> Cats eat fish and like to sharpen their claws on wood.
> Wood drifts and so do threads.
>
> Clearer now ? ;-)


No, although I once found a cat treading water in
an aquarium it could not get out of.

The fish were still swimming beneath it.

Doug

[Nockermensch]

Stephenls > wrote in message >...
> William Black wrote:
>
> > Complex combat systems are a sop to bad role playing by people not bright
> > enough to talk their way out of certain death.
>
> Alternately, they're for people who like complex combat systems. Kinda
> like there are video games where combat consists of "Press X repeatedly"
> and there are video games where the special moves counter each other
> five layers deep and you need to memorize what each and every move looks
> like so you know how to counter it when it's used against you, and there
> are people who enjoy both types.

King Of Fighters = Dungeons & Dragons.

Thanks for equating two games I like, Stephen.

--
@ @ Nockermensch, or are you talking about Tekken? Tekken = GURPS as
any fool can plainly see.

[Nockermensch]

"Michael Kuettner" > wrote in message >...
> "JB" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> .. .
> >
> > "Michael Kuettner" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "Stephenls" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> > > ...
> > > > William Black wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Of course there is.
>
> > > > > One is exercise, the other is a game.
>
> > > > > Or do you think that tennis results are not predictable?
> > > >
> > > > Your definition of "game" appears to be far more narrow than that of
> > > > every other English speaker on the planet. Indeed, if one defines
> games
> > > > as "things that are very much like [hypothetical platonic ideal of
> > > > game]," then all games are very much alike.
> > > >
> > > > Is hide-and-seek a game under your definition?
> > >
> > > Wrong question.
> > >
> > > The right question for any red-blooded Brit would be :
> > > "Is cricket a game or a religion ?"
> > > ;-)
> >
> > <Shakes head sadly>
> >
> > Despite our been mugged by the French the only game is Football.
> >
> >
> Can't you be excommunicated for statements like that ?
>
> I'd like to make some snide comments about British football here
> but considering the "quality" of the Austrian national team I'll keep
> my mouth firmly shut ;-).

As a brazilian, I'd like make some snide comments, but nevermind.

--
@ @ Nockermensch, besides, with our laughable defenses it's just a
matter of time before the other countries figure that all they need to
do to win Brazil is to play on the offensive.

[Nockermensch]

"William Black" > wrote in message >...
> "Hong Ooi" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 22:38:06 +0100, "William Black" >
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >"JB" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >> William Black wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > Complex combat systems are a sop to bad role playing by people not
> bright
> > >> > enough to talk their way out of certain death.
> > >>
> > >> Nice to see this old fallacy being trotted out again.
> > >
> > >I'll take your non refutation of the argument as agreement with dissent.
> > >
> > >That you for playing...
> >
> > You are Michael Scott Brown and I claim my hasty rant on multiclassed
> > characters.
>
> Who?

rgfd in-joke. You're Not Allowed to understand it.

> I've been out of RPGs for twenty odd years now.
>
> The song changes but the melody remains the same.

Are we talking about RPGs or hip-hop?

--
@ @ Nockermensch, please be more specific as this is a crossposted discussion.

[William Black]

"Nockermensch" > wrote in message
om...
> "William Black" > wrote in message
>...

> > I've been out of RPGs for twenty odd years now.
> >
> > The song changes but the melody remains the same.
>
> Are we talking about RPGs or hip-hop?

Hip-hop doesn't have melody, that's the point...

--
William Black
------------------
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords
is no basis for a system of government.

[Christopher Adams]

William Black wrote:
>
> Hip-hop doesn't have melody, that's the point...

Tell that to Lauryn Hill.

--
Christopher Adams
What part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nath Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you
understand?

You're not a bad person. You're a terrific person. You're my favorite person.
But every once in a while you just can be a real ****.
- Bill

[Sorcier]

Michael Kuettner wrote:

>
> Now to my question :
> If they are superheroes, what do they need full-plate armour for ?
> As a metal corset to form their beer - bellies into pectoral muscles
> (the male metal push-up bra) ?
>
> I've never needed such nonsense when I was Spiderman.

Captain America wears chainmail. ;P

[Sorcier]

Doug McDonald wrote:

> Could somebody please explain to me the
> connection of this thread to exploding aquariums?

Google.

[Sorcier]

William Black wrote:

> "Stephenls" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>William Black wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Complex combat systems are a sop to bad role playing by people not
>
> bright
>
>>>enough to talk their way out of certain death.
>>
>>Alternately, they're for people who like complex combat systems. Kinda
>>like there are video games where combat consists of "Press X repeatedly"
>>and there are video games where the special moves counter each other
>>five layers deep and you need to memorize what each and every move looks
>>like so you know how to counter it when it's used against you, and there
>>are people who enjoy both types.
>
>
> Nope, they're all games.
>
> No difference.
>
> That's the point.

Russian roulette is a game.

[Sorcier]

William Black wrote:

> "Stephenls" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>William Black wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Nope, they're all games.
>>
>>>No difference.
>>
>>>That's the point.
>>
>>There is no difference between Tetris and Axis & Allies?
>
>
> 'Tetris' isn't a 'game' in that sense.
>
> There is no adversary,

CPU.

> there is no ending,

GAME OVER.

> there is no narrative.

There's none in A&A either.

[Sorcier]

William Black wrote:

>
> I've been out of RPGs for twenty odd years now.

That explains it.

> The song changes but the melody remains the same.

Can't even quote Zeppelin right.

[Sorcier]

William Black wrote:

>
> Hip-hop doesn't have melody, that's the point...

Racist.

[Sorcier]

Michael Kuettner wrote:

>
> Who is Ironman ?
>
> Those super heroes really breed like lice ...
>
> Anybody out there who didn't get bitten by a radioactive spider
> or escaped from an exploding planet or had radioactive waste
> spilled into his eyes or had his parents killed as a boy or has
> fallen in the hands of the Canadians who did some unmentionable
> things to his body?

Many D+D characters and quite a few fish.
And a cat or two.
But no cricket players.

[Sorcier]

Lorenz Lang wrote:

> Sorcier > wrote in message >...
>
>>Milly Roberts wrote:
>>
>>>How could you plausibly put an exploding aquarium scene in medieval times?
>>
>>Glasssteel with Crystal Brittle?
>
> Do these still exist in 3.5?

Not that I know of.
Try using the 1472 edition of the rules.

[William Black]

"Sorcier" > wrote in message
...
> William Black wrote:
>
> > "Stephenls" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>William Black wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>Complex combat systems are a sop to bad role playing by people not
> >
> > bright
> >
> >>>enough to talk their way out of certain death.
> >>
> >>Alternately, they're for people who like complex combat systems. Kinda
> >>like there are video games where combat consists of "Press X repeatedly"
> >>and there are video games where the special moves counter each other
> >>five layers deep and you need to memorize what each and every move looks
> >>like so you know how to counter it when it's used against you, and there
> >>are people who enjoy both types.
> >
> >
> > Nope, they're all games.
> >
> > No difference.
> >
> > That's the point.
>
> Russian roulette is a game.
>
I wish you'd go and play it...

--
William Black
------------------
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords
is no basis for a system of government

[Hong Ooi]

(Nockermensch) wrote in message >...
> "Michael Kuettner" > wrote in message >...
> > "JB" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> > .. .
> > >
> > > "Michael Kuettner" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > >
> > > > "Stephenls" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> > > > ...
> > > > > William Black wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Of course there is.
>
> > > > > > One is exercise, the other is a game.
>
> > > > > > Or do you think that tennis results are not predictable?
> > > > >
> > > > > Your definition of "game" appears to be far more narrow than that of
> > > > > every other English speaker on the planet. Indeed, if one defines
> games
> > > > > as "things that are very much like [hypothetical platonic ideal of
> > > > > game]," then all games are very much alike.
> > > > >
> > > > > Is hide-and-seek a game under your definition?
> > > >
> > > > Wrong question.
> > > >
> > > > The right question for any red-blooded Brit would be :
> > > > "Is cricket a game or a religion ?"
> > > > ;-)
> > >
> > > <Shakes head sadly>
> > >
> > > Despite our been mugged by the French the only game is Football.
> > >
> > >
> > Can't you be excommunicated for statements like that ?
> >
> > I'd like to make some snide comments about British football here
> > but considering the "quality" of the Austrian national team I'll keep
> > my mouth firmly shut ;-).
>
> As a brazilian, I'd like make some snide comments, but nevermind.

I think it's particularly apt how one of the greatest and most
notorious English players is named after that mighty Brazilian river,
the Rio Ferdinand.


Hong "and not the Rio de Janeiro, as commonly thought" Ooi

[JB]

"Nockermensch" > wrote in message
om...
> "Michael Kuettner" > wrote in message
>...
> > "JB" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> > .. .

> > > <Shakes head sadly>
> > >
> > > Despite our been mugged by the French the only game is Football.
> > >
> > >
> > Can't you be excommunicated for statements like that ?
> >
> > I'd like to make some snide comments about British football here
> > but considering the "quality" of the Austrian national team I'll keep
> > my mouth firmly shut ;-).
>
> As a brazilian, I'd like make some snide comments, but nevermind.

Quiet you!

> @ @ Nockermensch, besides, with our laughable defenses it's just a
> matter of time before the other countries figure that all they need to
> do to win Brazil is to play on the offensive.

Easier said than done. That's the problem. :)

[Bay Way 41510]

Renia > wrote in message >...
> Bernardz wrote:
>
> > In article >, mill1223
> > @yahoo.com says...
> >
> >>How could you plausibly put an exploding aquarium scene in medieval times?
> >>
> >
> >
> > Easy. A fishmonger taking his fish to market puts too much water into a
> > pot full of fish and the pot breaks.
>
> Twaddle. The fishmonger would have used a cart with the fish on ice from
> a Kelvinator.
>
> Renia




You guys are a bunch of fags



real men play Tunnels & Trolls



STRATEGY

[Sorcier]

Bay Way 41510 wrote:
>
> You guys are a bunch of fags
>
> real men play Tunnels & Trolls

Call it what you like, but you'll still get hairy palms.

[Sorcier]

William Black wrote:

> "Sorcier" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Russian roulette is a game.
>
> I wish you'd go and play it...

I think I'll play Pente instead since there's no real difference.

[Stephenls]

Nockermensch wrote:

> King Of Fighters = Dungeons & Dragons.

> Thanks for equating two games I like, Stephen.

Actually I was talking about what I've heard of Virtua Fighter 4, but
whatever.
--
Stephenls
Geek
"I'm as impure as the driven yellow snow." -Spike

[Martin Reboul]

"William Black" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Martin Reboul" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > BTW, is it true that one sniff of WD40 can cause great embarrassment and
> even
> > get one black-balled from some of the more extreme medieval re-enactment
> > groups? My friend Malcolm was terrified that he would be tainted forever
> after
> > we had to spray him with two tins following a thunderstorm in full
> plate....
>
> Good grief no.

I did warn him to wait ten minutes before lighting his cigar in the pub....

> The group I'm in has a rather fierce reputation and the haze of WD-40 fumes
> rises over the camp fire of damp evenings like a sort of techno fog.
>
> Real fanatics get the tubes of Solvol and an old toothbrush out.

Very expensive stuff. What one really needs is a squire or twian....

> In certain circles it is more important to glitter than to be accurate.
>
> The goose grease and sand is for the tourists.

I was once ticked off for running my finger down a somewhat overly shiny
blade, and thought that if that was enough to spoil it, a good battele or two
and some rainy marching would have ***ked it up completely - hardly a combat
weapon!


> To inject a historical note, nobody actually knows how good a finish the
> medievals actually got on their 'white' plates, there isn't any left that
> hasn't been messed with. It certainly doesn't seem to have been the mirror
> perfection you see on modern harness.

Fom all my knowledge of metalwork, blacksmithing, welding and corrosion
prevention (which is, smug though it may sound, considerable), I can only
conclude that unless some sort of shellac laquer was used, and frequently
restored, no gleaming, polished finish could have survived more than a week,
certainly not with a sweaty knight inside it. I'm sure that such 'chrome'
finishes were sported by many Kings and nobleman in medieval times, but only
for a day, and only as the result of many servants, assistants and squires
working long, long hours before the event.

Kept in oiled or waxed paper or cloth, and carefully packed, I suppose the
shine could have survived a few months (maybe even years in dry places), but
that sort of nickel/chrome look was hardly practical to maintain.

I did find that giving my battleaxe and warhammer a very short electroplate
burst (using copper sulphate, sulphuric acid and a battery charger), dulled
them and reddened them a little, but preserved them for months, though any
trace of 'combat' whatsoever - even a thumb run down the blade to feel the
sharpness - would destroy the coating. I tried it with chrome (straight over
the steel, withouth a Cu/Ni substrate), and it blackened the surface, which
didn't look too bad, and lasted a lot longer, though it was similarly
vulnerable to abrasion. A thick layer of waxoyl or grease seems to be best...

Incidentally, any re-enactors or fantasists reading this, if you wish to make
your own replica of 'Stormbringer' or make something 'medievally' etched,
there is no need to resort to fuming nitric acid and other deadly chemicals,
all you need is some salt water, an piece of scrap copper pipe, a battery
charger, an old headlamp bulb, a plastic bucket and some underseal. Coat blade
and allow to dry, the etch the pattern you want 'engraved' into the underseal
so the metal shows. Attach the positive lead of the charger to the
weapon/ornament/runestone whatever, and the negative (via the bulb) to the
copper pipe, dunk both in the bucket of brine (not touching!) and switch on.
Bulb will light... fizz, fizz... (no smoking - hydrogen etc!) and wait. Very
soon, the piece is eroded by electrolytic action, quicker than acid, non-toxic
and completely safe.

If you are impatient and brave (or reckless), doing this with a heavy duty 12V
car battery, 400Amp jump leads and no bulb, can turn a steel bolt head into a
rather attractive fleur-de-lys (or skull) in a few seconds, and leave a bucket
of boiling brine perfect for pouring through murder holes, throwing over
bailiffs, or sterilizing soil... truly medieval!

Reversing the current, and using dilute sulphuric acid and copper sulphate
electrolyte (CuSO4 made by boiling scrap copper piping in knackered car
battery acid, in a pyrex dish over an open fire - always outside, and *stand
downwind*!!!), with an old copper pipe as the anode (+ve), with -ve attached
to the workpiece, will nicely inlay the etched part with copper, but you have
to do it slowly, so put the bulb in series.... polishes up beautifully. I
haven't tried it using other metals and electrolytes, but all sorts of
intricate, intertwined patterns and effects should be possible, using nickel,
silver (maybe from spent photographic developer?) chromium and other metal
salts - with only a mnute risk of poisoning or explosion.
Cheers
Martin

[Doug McDonald]

Martin Reboul wrote:

> I did find that giving my battleaxe and warhammer a very short electroplate
> burst (using copper sulphate, sulphuric acid and a battery charger), dulled
> them and reddened them a little, but preserved them for months, though any
> trace of 'combat' whatsoever - even a thumb run down the blade to feel the
> sharpness - would destroy the coating. I tried it with chrome (straight over
> the steel, withouth a Cu/Ni substrate), and it blackened the surface, which
> didn't look too bad, and lasted a lot longer, though it was similarly
> vulnerable to abrasion.

I suggest a thick professional nickel, chrome, or rhodium plate.

Or vapor deposited diamond.

Doug McDonald

[Rupert Boleyn]

On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 21:36:55 +0100, "Martin Reboul"
> carved upon a tablet of
ether:

> I did find that giving my battleaxe and warhammer a very short electroplate
> burst (using copper sulphate, sulphuric acid and a battery charger), dulled
> them and reddened them a little, but preserved them for months, though any
> trace of 'combat' whatsoever - even a thumb run down the blade to feel the
> sharpness - would destroy the coating. I tried it with chrome (straight over
> the steel, withouth a Cu/Ni substrate), and it blackened the surface, which
> didn't look too bad, and lasted a lot longer, though it was similarly
> vulnerable to abrasion. A thick layer of waxoyl or grease seems to be best...

You could look at the process used for 'browning' or 'blueing' gun
barrels.

> Reversing the current, and using dilute sulphuric acid and copper sulphate
> electrolyte (CuSO4 made by boiling scrap copper piping in knackered car
> battery acid, in a pyrex dish over an open fire - always outside, and *stand
> downwind*!!!)

Don't you mean "stand upwind"?

--
Rupert Boleyn >
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."

[Martin Reboul]

"Doug McDonald" > wrote in message
...
> Martin Reboul wrote:
>
> > I did find that giving my battleaxe and warhammer a very short
electroplate
> > burst (using copper sulphate, sulphuric acid and a battery charger),
dulled
> > them and reddened them a little, but preserved them for months, though any
> > trace of 'combat' whatsoever - even a thumb run down the blade to feel the
> > sharpness - would destroy the coating. I tried it with chrome (straight
over
> > the steel, withouth a Cu/Ni substrate), and it blackened the surface,
which
> > didn't look too bad, and lasted a lot longer, though it was similarly
> > vulnerable to abrasion.
>
> I suggest a thick professional nickel, chrome, or rhodium plate.

Nickel won't plate iron easily, it needs a layer of copper first IIRC? The
chromium layer is very thin and transparent, to protect the nickel from
corrosion. Lovely and bright is nickel plate, a bit too bright methinks - we
want to preserve that 'medieval look', not look like a Rolls Royce bumper, or
a freshly buffed Cylon warrior!

Unfortunately my local pharmacist is fresh out of nickel and rhodium salts,
and if you try to buy almost any chemical in the UK nowadays, you are either
assumed to be making a bomb, starting an underground drugs factory, or intend
to poison someone. I suppose nicad batteries might be a good source however,
just as zinc/carbon ones are for zinc and manganese dioxide. Shame to waste
them....
Cheers
Martin











>
> Or vapor deposited diamond.
>
> Doug McDonald

[Martin Reboul]

"Rupert Boleyn" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 21:36:55 +0100, "Martin Reboul"
> > carved upon a tablet of
> ether:
>
> > I did find that giving my battleaxe and warhammer a very short
electroplate
> > burst (using copper sulphate, sulphuric acid and a battery charger),
dulled
> > them and reddened them a little, but preserved them for months, though any
> > trace of 'combat' whatsoever - even a thumb run down the blade to feel the
> > sharpness - would destroy the coating. I tried it with chrome (straight
over
> > the steel, withouth a Cu/Ni substrate), and it blackened the surface,
which
> > didn't look too bad, and lasted a lot longer, though it was similarly
> > vulnerable to abrasion. A thick layer of waxoyl or grease seems to be
best...
>
> You could look at the process used for 'browning' or 'blueing' gun
> barrels.

These involve heat treatments IIRC, as well as some rather nasty chemicals. It
is very difficult to do this evenly on large pieces without having cauldrons
of liquid cyanide and so forth to hand, not really practical in the kitchen or
garage. They did manage to make 'blued' armour in the late C15, by very
careful heating alone, but the skill involved must have been exceptional - way
beyond my kitchen sink/bonfire 'technology' I'm afraid. Even then, it still
rusts.

> > Reversing the current, and using dilute sulphuric acid and copper sulphate
> > electrolyte (CuSO4 made by boiling scrap copper piping in knackered car
> > battery acid, in a pyrex dish over an open fire - always outside, and
*stand
> > downwind*!!!)
>
> Don't you mean "stand upwind"?

I wondered if anyone would spot that deliberate mistake, ahem.... thank you
Rupert!

(I really must include some sort of disclaimer as part of my signature one
day....)
Cheers
Martin

[Doug McDonald]

Martin Reboul wrote:

>
> Unfortunately my local pharmacist is fresh out of nickel and rhodium salts,
> and if you try to buy almost any chemical in the UK nowadays, you are either
> assumed to be making a bomb, starting an underground drugs factory, or intend
> to poison someone.



Even in the chemophobic USA you can still buy plating kits at
hobby stores.

Doug McDonald

[William Black]

"Martin Reboul" > wrote in message
...

> Unfortunately my local pharmacist is fresh out of nickel and rhodium
salts,
> and if you try to buy almost any chemical in the UK nowadays, you are
either
> assumed to be making a bomb, starting an underground drugs factory, or
intend
> to poison someone. I suppose nicad batteries might be a good source
however,
> just as zinc/carbon ones are for zinc and manganese dioxide. Shame to
waste
> them....

You're obviously shopping in the wrong places mate.

Try the jewellery supply houses in the Birmingham Jewellery Quarter.

They'll sell you electroplating equipment and salts for just about
everything, and if you ask around there you'll find people who'll do just
about any sort of plating for a few quid.

--
William Black
------------------
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords
is no basis for a system of government

[Rupert Boleyn]

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 18:00:16 +0100, "Martin Reboul"
> carved upon a tablet of
ether:

> These involve heat treatments IIRC, as well as some rather nasty chemicals. It
> is very difficult to do this evenly on large pieces without having cauldrons
> of liquid cyanide and so forth to hand, not really practical in the kitchen or
> garage. They did manage to make 'blued' armour in the late C15, by very
> careful heating alone, but the skill involved must have been exceptional - way
> beyond my kitchen sink/bonfire 'technology' I'm afraid. Even then, it still
> rusts.

You can get cold blueing kits, or could ten years ago. As for
browning, I don't think that's too scary, though it does involve
heating.

--
Rupert Boleyn >
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."

[William Black]

"Rupert Boleyn" > wrote in message
...

> You can get cold blueing kits, or could ten years ago. As for
> browning, I don't think that's too scary, though it does involve
> heating.

Cold blue is crap.

Browning and hot blueing are both oxidation processes.

You can do very nice browning just with flux and a torch though, if you
practice a bit.

--
William Black
------------------
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords
is no basis for a system of government

[Martin Reboul]

"William Black" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Rupert Boleyn" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > You can get cold blueing kits, or could ten years ago. As for
> > browning, I don't think that's too scary, though it does involve
> > heating.
>
> Cold blue is crap.
>
> Browning and hot blueing are both oxidation processes.
>
> You can do very nice browning just with flux and a torch though, if you
> practice a bit.

I'm always keen to use up all that old spent photographic developer, which I
just know is full of dissolved silver, in some electroplating process. I
haven't really experimented much - anyone got any suggestions? It seems very
reluctant to stick.
Cheers
Martin

[Donald Tsang]

Martin Reboul > wrote:
>I'm always keen to use up all that old spent photographic developer, which I
>just know is full of dissolved silver, in some electroplating process. I
>haven't really experimented much - anyone got any suggestions? It seems very
>reluctant to stick.

Direct current electricity? Make the thing you want to electroplate the
cathode (+), and use some reasonable sacrificial anode (silver, if you
want to do this for awhile)...

I hear a 6-volt "lantern" battery works pretty well, if slowly.

Donald

[William Black]

"Martin Reboul" > wrote in message
...
>

> I'm always keen to use up all that old spent photographic developer, which
I
> just know is full of dissolved silver, in some electroplating process. I
> haven't really experimented much - anyone got any suggestions? It seems
very
> reluctant to stick.

Too many odd salts in it.

You need a reasonably pure mixture to start up.

--
William Black
------------------
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords
is no basis for a system of government

[Martin Reboul]

"Donald Tsang" > wrote in message
...
> Martin Reboul > wrote:
> >I'm always keen to use up all that old spent photographic developer, which
I
> >just know is full of dissolved silver, in some electroplating process. I
> >haven't really experimented much - anyone got any suggestions? It seems
very
> >reluctant to stick.
>
> Direct current electricity? Make the thing you want to electroplate the
> cathode (+), and use some reasonable sacrificial anode (silver, if you
> want to do this for awhile)...
>
> I hear a 6-volt "lantern" battery works pretty well, if slowly.

I have tried a few 'methods', acidifying things, using alkali (which was
hopeless), all to no avail. It just doesn't want to stick at best, and turns
to spongy grey foam usually. The slower it is done the better with
elecrtoplating usually, but even that didn't work.

I must admit, I haven't tried very hard (or read all the books that I should
have!), but I suspect the secret lies in converting the developer (which, as
William said, is full of all sorts of peculiar organic compounds) into some
hard and fast silver salt first, then plating over a substrate of some other
metal, like copper. Must have another go someday....

Cheers
Martin

[Charleson Mambo]

In article >,
"JB" > wrote:

> "Julian Richards" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On 11 Jun 2004 06:07:49 -0700, (Nockermensch)
> > wrote:
> >
> > >> Oh great, indoor archery...
> > >
> > >Sure, why not? Do people stop being good targets only because there's
> > >a ceiling above them?
> >
> > The arrow is a ranged weapon. Up close it is no good.
>
> Indoors <> Up close.
>
> > The time taken
> > to loose off an arrow in painfully slow compared to drawing a bladed
> > weapon and using it (quite literally painfully).
>
> Estimates say that medieval longbowmen should fire between 10-12 arrows
> per minute. In D&D this can be faster but then again they are usually
> super heroes in leather armour (who make sure there are obstructions in
> the between you and your target). I believe fish can't use bows at all.
> (Just to stay on topic for all 3 groups).
>


What about the Archer Fish?



Charleson Mambo

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To confuse, inveigle, and obfuscate.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<spam> www.accanthology.com Buy "The Alt.Cyberpunk.Chatsubo Anthology" </spam>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Drew Nicholson]

"Charleson Mambo" > wrote in message
...
> >
> > Estimates say that medieval longbowmen should fire between 10-12 arrows
> > per minute. In D&D this can be faster but then again they are usually
> > super heroes in leather armour (who make sure there are obstructions in
> > the between you and your target). I believe fish can't use bows at all.
> > (Just to stay on topic for all 3 groups).
> >
>
>
> What about the Archer Fish?
>

Depends on the flipper to pull ratio and the surface tension of the water.

[Peter Jason]

"Drew Nicholson" > wrote in message
...
> "Charleson Mambo" > wrote in message
> ...
> > >
> > > Estimates say that medieval longbowmen should fire between 10-12
arrows
> > > per minute. In D&D this can be faster but then again they are usually
> > > super heroes in leather armour (who make sure there are obstructions
in
> > > the between you and your target). I believe fish can't use bows at
all.
> > > (Just to stay on topic for all 3 groups).
> > >
> >
> >
> > What about the Archer Fish?
> >
>
> Depends on the flipper to pull ratio and the surface tension of the water.
>
>

And of course the transparency of the water.