Calcium Montmorillonite Clay ??

[Bette E]

Have any of you tried this product in your ponds? It was recommended to
me by a friend who has Koi.

(Snip)
Calcium Montmorillonite clay (AKA: Bentonite Clay)
Terra Pond=99 is a complete nutrient source
that clarifies and detoxifies pond water,
Improves fish color and conformation,
Improves fish immune system and is used
For Goldfish and Koi.

TerraPond is an absolutely pure form of Calcium Montmorillonite clay. It
contains color-enhancing nutrients for your fish and plants and also
removes impurities that result in clarifying the water until it
sparkles.
TerraPond is a very fine, pure, edible clay and it will stay suspended
in your water while doing its work.

Many first-time users are often concerned when their water doesn't clear
in a short period of time. Please do not be alarmed. Even if you
accidentally apply a dosage that exceeds our recommended amount, you can
never harm or overdose your fish with this 100% natural product.

HOW IT WORKS:
The magnetic attraction immediately begins when negatively charged
TerraPond is introduced into your pond water and begins the
micro-encapsulation process. This electrical ion exchange process is
also referred to as "flocculation."
As a result, the electrically bonded particles are larger in size and
weight. In Koi ponds, this increased mass then becomes filterable in
most bio filter systems


We suggest that you start with a conservative dose if your pond water is
already at or close to an acceptable level of clarity. TerraPond's
colloidal suspension properties allow it to continue bonding with
impurities, carrying them safely into your filter. It also allows more
nutrients to get into your fish's systems. Since the best koi are raised
and live in mud ponds, your fish will thank you for their mud bath that
improves conformation, coloration, health, and vitality.

[George]

"Courageous" > wrote in message
...
>
>>The magnetic attraction immediately begins when negatively charged
>>TerraPond is introduced into your pond water and begins the
>>micro-encapsulation process. This electrical ion exchange process is
>>also referred to as "flocculation."
>
> Personally, I'm often quite suspicious when a product needs to
> introduce the notion of some rarifed process of physics. Magnetic
> arm bands, anyone?
>
> Anyway, you have dirty water?
>
> How big is your pond, and describe your filtration system.
>
> C//

Bentonite is great to use for planting water plants. It also is good for fixing
leaks. But don't buy the overpriced crap sold by dealers. You can buy 100 lbs
of bentonite powder for about $6.00 at an industrial pump or drillers supply
company.

[Bette E]

(snip) George wrote:
"Anyway, you have dirty water?"
"How big is your pond, and describe your filtration system."

Yes, I have green water, with about 1 inch of organic matter on the
bottom of liner and some string algae on waterfall spillway rock.

Pond is 2000 gals, 24 inches deep. I have a bio-filter in pond-- and a
veggie filter at the top of the waterfall.

I have 2 new eight inch koi, 14 other fish, (goldfish, shebunkin and 1
perch to keep the pond population down..) also found one very large
bullfrog tadpole. I skim daily. Water tests are all in normal range.

There are 3 water lilies, 2 large clumps of Iris, mini catails, assorted
oxygenators, plus floaters on top..

[Reel McKoi]

"George" > wrote in message
news:4qUje.26665$WG.12844@attbi_s22...
> Bentonite is great to use for planting water plants. It also is good for
fixing
> leaks. But don't buy the overpriced crap sold by dealers. You can buy
100 lbs
> of bentonite powder for about $6.00 at an industrial pump or drillers
supply
> company.
========================
Everything for ponds and pond fish is horribly overpriced. That's why I buy
catfish food for my koi and large goldfish. It runs around $10 for a 50 lb
bag. Today I bought a large fish net I now need because of the size of some
of my koi. It was $20 in the fishing dept. of an Outdoors/Sporting goods
type of store - over $30 at a pet shop in Nashville.
--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
EVERYONE: "Please check people's headers for forgeries
before flushing." NAMES ARE BEING FORGED.
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[George]

"Bette E" > wrote in message
...
> (snip) George wrote:
> "Anyway, you have dirty water?"
> "How big is your pond, and describe your filtration system."
>
> Yes, I have green water, with about 1 inch of organic matter on the
> bottom of liner and some string algae on waterfall spillway rock.
>
> Pond is 2000 gals, 24 inches deep. I have a bio-filter in pond-- and a
> veggie filter at the top of the waterfall.
>
> I have 2 new eight inch koi, 14 other fish, (goldfish, shebunkin and 1
> perch to keep the pond population down..) also found one very large
> bullfrog tadpole. I skim daily. Water tests are all in normal range.
>
> There are 3 water lilies, 2 large clumps of Iris, mini catails, assorted
> oxygenators, plus floaters on top..

Actually, George didn't write that.

George

[George]

"Reel McKoi" > wrote in message
...
>
> "George" > wrote in message
> news:4qUje.26665$WG.12844@attbi_s22...
>> Bentonite is great to use for planting water plants. It also is good for
> fixing
>> leaks. But don't buy the overpriced crap sold by dealers. You can buy
> 100 lbs
>> of bentonite powder for about $6.00 at an industrial pump or drillers
> supply
>> company.
> ========================
> Everything for ponds and pond fish is horribly overpriced. That's why I buy
> catfish food for my koi and large goldfish. It runs around $10 for a 50 lb
> bag. Today I bought a large fish net I now need because of the size of some
> of my koi. It was $20 in the fishing dept. of an Outdoors/Sporting goods
> type of store - over $30 at a pet shop in Nashville.
> --
> McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
> EVERYONE: "Please check people's headers for forgeries
> before flushing." NAMES ARE BEING FORGED.
> ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Marine aquarium dealers are even worse than that. I really think that the FTC
should investigate these people because I think that they gouge the consumer.

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

>> Everything for ponds and pond fish is horribly overpriced. That's why I buy
>> catfish food for my koi and large goldfish. It runs around $10 for a 50 lb
>> bag. Today I bought a large fish net I now need because of the size of some
>> of my koi. It was $20 in the fishing dept. of an Outdoors/Sporting goods
>> type of store - over $30 at a pet shop in Nashville.
>> McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
>
>Marine aquarium dealers are even worse than that. I really think that the FTC
>should investigate these people because I think that they gouge the consumer.

There have been many write ups on koi food (Koi USA) and why it should be
used over cheaper farm-fish stuff, not only better for the koi, but better
for one's filter and water quality. Koi don't process the same foods in the
same way as catfish, their inner anatomy is different.

Nets from a fish store are designed to catch fish that are going to be
eaten. Good quality koi nets are for guiding fish into a container, where a
koi sock net is than used to pick up the koi, if it can't be bagged
straight from the container. You don't want to be gill netting your pets or
taking off scales. ~ jan


See my ponds and filter design:
www.jjspond.us

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

[Reel McKoi]

"~ jan JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
...
> >> Everything for ponds and pond fish is horribly overpriced. That's why
I buy
> >> catfish food for my koi and large goldfish. It runs around $10 for a
50 lb
> >> bag. Today I bought a large fish net I now need because of the size of
some
> >> of my koi. It was $20 in the fishing dept. of an Outdoors/Sporting
goods
> >> type of store - over $30 at a pet shop in Nashville.
> >> McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
> >
> >Marine aquarium dealers are even worse than that. I really think that
the FTC
> >should investigate these people because I think that they gouge the
consumer.
>
> There have been many write ups on koi food (Koi USA) and why it should be
> used over cheaper farm-fish stuff, not only better for the koi, but better
> for one's filter and water quality. Koi don't process the same foods in
the
> same way as catfish, their inner anatomy is different.

## I've been reading that here for years. However my koi and goldfish are
thriving on a diet of about 80% catfish food and 20% kitten and puppy chow.
There is no logical reason the people making pond fish foods should be
charging $5 a lb and up other than greed.

> Nets from a fish store are designed to catch fish that are going to be
> eaten. Good quality koi nets are for guiding fish into a container, where
a
> koi sock net is than used to pick up the koi,
if it can't be bagged
> straight from the container.
You don't want to be gill netting your pets or
> taking off scales. ~ jan

## If you have show koi where even the loss of one scale can be a disaster,
this would definitely apply (socknets and containers). But even the most
expensive net and careful handling can split a fin or loosen a scale of the
fish really fights. Have you looked at them in the sporting section? They
have the *same exact mesh* as the overpriced koi nets in the pond and fish
stores!!!! They're probably made by the same people. The mesh is too fine
to gillnet fish. It's soft and barely 1/4" mesh. You may be thinking of
those harsh crab-nets with 1" mesh.
I have never taken scales off a fish using these nets. They knock more
scales off themselves and do more damage when spawning. :-(

Remember that mini water Lilly I mentioned for $4.88 from Wally-World last
year? The one that came with 2 fertilizer tabs, some rocks and a mesh pot?
It already has 4 blooms and more buds coming up. An acquaintance paid $35
plus S&H for hers...... the same plant!

--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
EVERYONE: "Please check people's headers for forgeries
before flushing." NAMES ARE BEING FORGED.
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Reel McKoi]

"Courageous" > wrote in message
...
>
> >## I've been reading that here for years. However my koi and goldfish
are
> >thriving on a diet of about 80% catfish food and 20% kitten and puppy
chow.
> >There is no logical reason the people making pond fish foods should be
> >charging $5 a lb and up other than greed.
>
> It's like my neighborhood. I always have to get three or four contractor
> bids on a job before I can get one fairly priced. Why? First thing the
> contractor sees when the drive into my neighborhood is $1.5M homes. *cha
> ching*. I've saved as much as 30% or more on jobs, and the work has always
> been good. Anyway, with Koi, it applies. There is a perception that Koi
are the habit
> of those with money.

## RIGHT! They're going to get what they can for their product - but not
from me. Also, when they see ponds, gazebos, manicured lawns and flower
gardens they also see $$$ signs.

> Hey. Anyone out there raise live food for their fish?

## I harvest the fat worms from the compost heap. All the fish love them!

> C//
--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
EVERYONE: "Please check people's headers for forgeries
before flushing." NAMES ARE BEING FORGED.
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Courageous]

>The magnetic attraction immediately begins when negatively charged
>TerraPond is introduced into your pond water and begins the
>micro-encapsulation process. This electrical ion exchange process is
>also referred to as "flocculation."

Personally, I'm often quite suspicious when a product needs to
introduce the notion of some rarifed process of physics. Magnetic
arm bands, anyone?

Anyway, you have dirty water?

How big is your pond, and describe your filtration system.

C//

[Courageous]

>Yes, I have green water, ...

A good UV sterlizer will take that right out*. Assuming you have no
real water quality issues, the problem would be solved.

>,,,some string algae on waterfall spillway rock...

An enzyme digester, if that bothers you?

>Pond is 2000 gals, 24 inches deep. I have a bio-filter in pond-- and a
>veggie filter at the top of the waterfall.

Let's here about the size of your biofilter (which type?) and veggie filter,
as well as your flow rates.

And the veggie filter... it is lively?

C//

* p.s., I'm new at this, and have been doing a ginormous amount of reading;
book learning isn't to be mistaken for hard experience. :) Be that as it
may, the written word is: UV sterilizers zap free floating single cell algae.

[Bette E]

Thank you for your advice about purchasing pond products. (Point taken,
see bottom.)

I understand that there are two types of bentonite-- Sodium & Calcium.
Apparently, the sodium type clumps more, where as the calcium type, is a
bit more soluble (perhaps better, for some types of filtration.)
See: http://www.sfbakc.org/koienews/clayvsclay.html

I found this (see below) on the site: (along with info on how it makes
the water crystal clear and destroys algae.)

"Wal-Mart has a brand of kitty litter, apparently only carried by
Wal-Mart since it is their special brand, which is clearly labeled as
Bentonite clay, the preferred kind of clay to add to fish ponds. It's
brand name is 'Special Kitty', in a 25 pound red colored bag
(unscented), costing $5 for the 25 pound bag."

[Courageous]

>## I've been reading that here for years. However my koi and goldfish are
>thriving on a diet of about 80% catfish food and 20% kitten and puppy chow.
>There is no logical reason the people making pond fish foods should be
>charging $5 a lb and up other than greed.

It's like my neighborhood. I always have to get three or four contractor
bids on a job before I can get one fairly priced. Why? First thing the
contractor sees when the drive into my neighborhood is $1.5M homes. *cha
ching*. I've saved as much as 30% or more on jobs, and the work has always
been good.

Anyway, with Koi, it applies. There is a perception that Koi are the habit
of those with money.

Hey. Anyone out there raise live food for their fish?

C//

[George]

"Bette E" > wrote in message
...
> Thank you for your advice about purchasing pond products. (Point taken,
> see bottom.)
>
> I understand that there are two types of bentonite-- Sodium & Calcium.
> Apparently, the sodium type clumps more, where as the calcium type, is a
> bit more soluble (perhaps better, for some types of filtration.)
> See: http://www.sfbakc.org/koienews/clayvsclay.html
>
> I found this (see below) on the site: (along with info on how it makes
> the water crystal clear and destroys algae.)
>
> "Wal-Mart has a brand of kitty litter, apparently only carried by
> Wal-Mart since it is their special brand, which is clearly labeled as
> Bentonite clay, the preferred kind of clay to add to fish ponds. It's
> brand name is 'Special Kitty', in a 25 pound red colored bag
> (unscented), costing $5 for the 25 pound bag."

Even better, goto a industrial pump company or better, a drilling supply
company, and you can buy 100 lbs of bentonite powder for $6. FYI.

[scs0]

>> There is no logical reason the people making pond fish foods should
be
>>charging $5 a lb and up other than greed.

The purpose of a business is to make as much money as possible by
producing a product people choose to buy. If people chose not to buy
these products they wouldn't be able to charge as much for it. If you
want to blame "greed" on the part of the companies then you ought to
blame the consumers for "sloth" and "ignorance" because we aren't
seeking out cheaper alternatives.

It's especially odd to see that you're complaining about corporate
greed when it relates to feeding decorative fish that live in
artificial outdoor ponds. Some might find it "greedly" for you (and
me) to engage in excess like that when <place problem here> exists in
the world. Unless you're the poorest schmuck on the planet, everyone
can call someone else "greedy" as an easy way of dismissing a situation
they are jealous about or do not understand.

Be careful of the word greed. Greed has got to be the most overused and
misused word in the English language. Yes, I won't deny that it exists
but it's overused generally by the truely greedy to restrict the rights
of others.

[Reel McKoi]

"scs0" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> >> There is no logical reason the people making pond fish foods should
> be
> >>charging $5 a lb and up other than greed.
>
> The purpose of a business is to make as much money as possible by
> producing a product people choose to buy. If people chose not to buy
> these products they wouldn't be able to charge as much for it. If you
> want to blame "greed" on the part of the companies then you ought to
> blame the consumers for "sloth" and "ignorance" because we aren't
> seeking out cheaper alternatives.

## Sloth no. Ignorance - yes! If people are willing the pay the price of
a diamond for a zirconium then they will laugh all the way to the bank. :-)

> It's especially odd to see that you're complaining about corporate
> greed when it relates to feeding decorative fish that live in
> artificial outdoor ponds. Some might find it "greedly" for you (and
> me) to engage in excess like that when <place problem here> exists in
> the world.

## You can't compare apples to window shades. We're talking about obscene
profit at the expense of the gullible. Koi and GF thrive on cheaper diets
than what they're pushing on us.

Unless you're the poorest schmuck on the planet, everyone
> can call someone else "greedy" as an easy way of dismissing a situation
> they are jealous about or do not understand.

## Huh? What's to understand? The feed Co's producing catfish and other
fish chows are making a profit by selling it at $5 to $6 per 25 lbs. Some
ornamental fish foods sell for $5 and up *per lb.* Many people see that as
obscene profit and use the cheaper foods rather than enrich some greedy Co.

> Be careful of the word greed. Greed has got to be the most overused and
> misused word in the English language. Yes, I won't deny that it exists
> but it's overused generally by the truely greedy to restrict the rights
> of others.

## Are we talking politics here or fish food? :-)
--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
EVERYONE: ""Please check people's headers for forgeries
before flushing." NAMES ARE BEING FORGED.
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Reel McKoi]

"Courageous" > wrote in message
...
>
> >## Sloth no. Ignorance - yes!
>
> Don't forget just plain stupidity. Plenty of people will /prefer/
> to buy a thing branded for a specific purpose, even if they find
> the same thing for less money, but not branded for that purpose.
>
> Go figure.
=============================
It reminds me of a friend I had a few years ago. She would rather spend $40
to $50 for a pair of jeans at the LaRitz at the Mall than get almost the
same exact pair for $17.99 at Wal-Mart. I bought Halston cologne at K-Mart
for $19.99 but she wouldn't DARE shop at such a place - and paid $29.99 for
the same cologne at a fragrance store..... some people think the more they
spend the better the product. PS,... the $50 jeans don't last any longer
than the $18.00 jeans. :-)

As long as my fish thrive and reproduce on catfish chow at $10 - $12 per 50
lb sack with some kitten and pup chow that's what they'll get.

I did pick up the clay/cat litter this afternoon but am clueless as to how
people are using it to clear the water in their ponds. Any suggestions?
--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
EVERYONE: "Please check people's headers for forgeries
before flushing." NAMES ARE BEING FORGED.
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[~ janj JJsPond.us]

>artificial outdoor ponds. Some might find it "greedly" for you (and
>me) to engage in excess like that when <place problem here> exists in
>the world.

So true. :-( ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

[George]

"Reel McKoi" > wrote in message
...
>

> ## Huh? What's to understand? The feed Co's producing catfish and
> other
> fish chows are making a profit by selling it at $5 to $6 per 25 lbs.
> Some
> ornamental fish foods sell for $5 and up *per lb.* Many people see that
> as
> obscene profit and use the cheaper foods rather than enrich some greedy
> Co.

Fish food bought at pet shops generally cost more per pound than a pound of
Sirloin steak at a grocery store (especially marine fish food). This is
especially obcene when you consider that much of the product that goes into
it is by and large the leftovers from animal rendering plants and grain
processing plants with a little bit of choline chloride thrown in for good
measure (a product which the company my brother works for makes in huge
quantities for pennies for animal feed). Having said that, some stores
understand how obcenely expensive these products are. I frequent a garden
pond shop that is located about 5 miles from my home. They sell a generic
food that they buy in bulk and sell for about $1.99 for one pound bags, and
they still make a profit from it. Many farmers supply stores sell pond
fish food to farmers in bulk for far less than that per pound. Those who
say that Koi have special nutritional needs might think about what they are
paying for that little extra amount of nutition, which I have no doubt adds
little value to their food. If you are concerned about what your fish eat,
you can always suppliment their diet with inexpensive natural foods that
are likely to be much better for them in the long fun. I have found that
when I feed my catfish his generic food, the Koi prefer it to their own
food (which is also generic), and will play a game of cat and mouse with
the catfish just for the chance to get a morsel or two of the catfish food.
I have yet to loose a single fish because of their diet.

[~Roy~]

On Wed, 25 May 2005 08:16:50 -0700, ~ janj JJsPond.us
> wrote:

>===<>>artificial outdoor ponds. Some might find it "greedly" for you (and
>===<>>me) to engage in excess like that when <place problem here> exists in
>===<>>the world.
>===<>
>===<>So true. :-( ~ jan
>===<>
>===<> ~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

Yes, especially for the prices the koi clay fetches, as compared to a
100# bag of it locally for under $6.00. Maybe I need to buy a few bags
and peddle it on ebay for a slight fee as well as my excess crop of
frog bit, water clover, duck weed, parrots feather , water snowflake
and sensitive fern..........which almost seems like a weekly chore to
keep under control anymore.

==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!

~~~~ }<((((o> ~~~~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~~~~~ }<(((((o>

[~Roy~]

On Wed, 25 May 2005 20:48:31 GMT, "George"
> wrote:

snip
>===<>Fish food bought at pet shops generally cost more per pound than a pound of
>===<>Sirloin steak at a grocery store (especially marine fish food). This is
>===<>especially obcene when you consider that much of the product that goes into
>===<>it is by and large the leftovers from animal rendering plants and grain
>===<>processing plants with a little bit of choline chloride thrown in for good
>===<>measure (a product which the company my brother works for makes in huge
>===<>quantities for pennies for animal feed). Having said that, some stores
>===<>understand how obcenely expensive these products are. I frequent a garden
>===<>pond shop that is located about 5 miles from my home. They sell a generic
>===<>food that they buy in bulk and sell for about $1.99 for one pound bags, and
>===<>they still make a profit from it. Many farmers supply stores sell pond
>===<>fish food to farmers in bulk for far less than that per pound. Those who
>===<>say that Koi have special nutritional needs might think about what they are
>===<>paying for that little extra amount of nutition, which I have no doubt adds
>===<>little value to their food. If you are concerned about what your fish eat,
>===<>you can always suppliment their diet with inexpensive natural foods that
>===<>are likely to be much better for them in the long fun. I have found that
>===<>when I feed my catfish his generic food, the Koi prefer it to their own
>===<>food (which is also generic), and will play a game of cat and mouse with
>===<>the catfish just for the chance to get a morsel or two of the catfish food.
>===<>I have yet to loose a single fish because of their diet.
>===<>
Been feeding a local prepared POnd Fish food now for years that a
local mill here makes for under $10.00 for 50# sack and my koi, GF and
catfish are all grwoing just fine......I have them in a natural pond
so they are supplementing foods with what they find there, but if it
was for me having to pay for KOI food, I seriously doubt I would pay
the kind of money they ask for it. Kaytee makes a good premium feed,
which is about $18.00 for 10# and is available at Petsmart, which is
not too bad pricewise when you consider what other brands with equal
ingredients cost. Often times they have it on sale and then I pick up
a few bags but mine eat the local feed as readily as koi feed, so its
more just to satisfy my own self they are getting what they
"should-hopefully" be getting in regards to nourishment.


==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!

~~~~ }<((((o> ~~~~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~~~~~ }<(((((o>

[~ janj JJsPond.us]

>George wrote in part:

>Those who
>say that Koi have special nutritional needs might think about what they are
>paying for that little extra amount of nutition, which I have no doubt adds
>little value to their food. If you are concerned about what your fish eat,
>you can always suppliment their diet with inexpensive natural foods that
>are likely to be much better for them in the long fun.

Not in my case, I feed a koi food because it is easier on my filtration.
Less waste coming out. Yes, koi probably get enough from the cheaper foods,
but they usually need to eat more to get it, the rest is feeding the
filter.

Similar to dog foods, feed the cheaper brands and they will state so many
cups/lb of dog. A higher quality brand will show less cups/lb of dog, thus
less dog doo to pick off the lawn, all because they pack more quality into
every cup. Cup by cup, you won't save much. ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

[Courageous]

>## Sloth no. Ignorance - yes!

Don't forget just plain stupidity. Plenty of people will /prefer/
to buy a thing branded for a specific purpose, even if they find
the same thing for less money, but not branded for that purpose.

Go figure.

C//

[Courageous]

>It reminds me of a friend I had a few years ago. She would rather spend $40
>to $50 for a pair of jeans at the LaRitz at the Mall than get almost the
>same exact pair for $17.99 at Wal-Mart.

In some parts of the market, you'd practically think it's a conspiracy.

Ever notice how non food items don't have ingredients lists?

Who'd pay for a brand name soap if they knew it was, um, just soap?

There's only about a half dozen industrial cleaning agents used in
cleaning supplies.

And so on...

C//

[George]

"~ janj JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
...
> >George wrote in part:
>
>>Those who
>>say that Koi have special nutritional needs might think about what they
>>are
>>paying for that little extra amount of nutition, which I have no doubt
>>adds
>>little value to their food. If you are concerned about what your fish
>>eat,
>>you can always suppliment their diet with inexpensive natural foods that
>>are likely to be much better for them in the long fun.
>
> Not in my case, I feed a koi food because it is easier on my filtration.
> Less waste coming out. Yes, koi probably get enough from the cheaper
> foods,
> but they usually need to eat more to get it, the rest is feeding the
> filter.
>
> Similar to dog foods, feed the cheaper brands and they will state so many
> cups/lb of dog. A higher quality brand will show less cups/lb of dog,
> thus
> less dog doo to pick off the lawn, all because they pack more quality
> into
> every cup. Cup by cup, you won't save much. ~ jan
>
> ~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

I've been feeding my koi, shubukans, goldfish and channel cat buld foods
for three years with no problems. They are all fat and sassy, and the
filter is fine. I never feed them more than once per day, and never feed
them any more than they would get if I used a premium brand.

[Wilmdale]

Bette E wrote:

>Thank you for your advice about purchasing pond products. (Point taken,
>see bottom.)
>
>I understand that there are two types of bentonite-- Sodium & Calcium.
>Apparently, the sodium type clumps more, where as the calcium type, is a
>bit more soluble (perhaps better, for some types of filtration.)
>See: http://www.sfbakc.org/koienews/clayvsclay.html
>
>I found this (see below) on the site: (along with info on how it makes
>the water crystal clear and destroys algae.)
>
>"Wal-Mart has a brand of kitty litter, apparently only carried by
>Wal-Mart since it is their special brand, which is clearly labeled as
>Bentonite clay, the preferred kind of clay to add to fish ponds. It's
>brand name is 'Special Kitty', in a 25 pound red colored bag
>(unscented), costing $5 for the 25 pound bag."
>
>
>
I just purchaed a 25 lb. bag for $1.97 + tax, US. The bag is red, say
"Special Kitty" and the ingredient is 'ground clay'.
Think it is the same thing? It looks like a duch ... "
W. Dale

[~ janj JJsPond.us]

>>Thank you for your advice about purchasing pond products. (Point taken,
>>see bottom.)
>>
>>I understand that there are two types of bentonite-- Sodium & Calcium.
>>Apparently, the sodium type clumps more, where as the calcium type, is a
>>bit more soluble (perhaps better, for some types of filtration.)
>>See: http://www.sfbakc.org/koienews/clayvsclay.html Bette E

Wow, interesting article and Chris N. is one of the KHA teachers. Sounds
like sodium and calcium are added after the fact?

>I just purchaed a 25 lb. bag for $1.97 + tax, US. The bag is red, say
>"Special Kitty" and the ingredient is 'ground clay'.
>Think it is the same thing? It looks like a duch ... "
>W. Dale

Sounds like it. Btw, what color is the clay? ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

[Wilmdale]

~ janj JJsPond.us wrote:

>>>Thank you for your advice about purchasing pond products. (Point taken,
>>>see bottom.)
>>>
>>>I understand that there are two types of bentonite-- Sodium & Calcium.
>>>Apparently, the sodium type clumps more, where as the calcium type, is a
>>>bit more soluble (perhaps better, for some types of filtration.)
>>>See: http://www.sfbakc.org/koienews/clayvsclay.html Bette E
>>>
>>>
>
>Wow, interesting article and Chris N. is one of the KHA teachers. Sounds
>like sodium and calcium are added after the fact?
>
>
>
>>I just purchaed a 25 lb. bag for $1.97 + tax, US. The bag is red, say
>>"Special Kitty" and the ingredient is 'ground clay'.
>>Think it is the same thing? It looks like a duch ... "
>>W. Dale
>>
>>
>
>Sounds like it. Btw, what color is the clay? ~ jan
>
> ~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~
>
>
It is gray. Is that the same stuff?
W. Dale

[Reel McKoi]

"Wilmdale" > wrote in message
...
> I just purchaed a 25 lb. bag for $1.97 + tax, US. The bag is red, say
> "Special Kitty" and the ingredient is 'ground clay'.
> Think it is the same thing? It looks like a duch ... "
> W. Dale
==================
I bought the same thing and it doesn't clog my filters or glob up. So it
must be the right product. :-)
--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
EVERYONE: "Please check people's headers for forgeries
before flushing." NAMES ARE BEING FORGED.
Do not feed the troll trying to pass as *Reel Mckoi*
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[~Roy~]

Kitty litter is bentonite clay alright, but its sodium
bentonite..............not exactly what you want to put in a pond
unless it is a natural pond and has a seep your trying to stop. Why
would someone want top put a clumping sodium bentonite into a pond
with a filter....... You sound like those clowns on the home brew
foundry forum that goes to all extents to grind up kitty litter to use
a foundry sand. The larger granules is not whats needed like in kittly
kitter nor is sodium bentonite needed..............The word is
Southern Bentonite or CALCIUM Bentonite..............
Either of the bentonites can be anywhere from a plae tan or creme
color to a light grey color with sodium bentonite being more in the
gray tones than calcium, but I have seen it in a large array of
various colors as it depends on how and where at in the layers of it
while it was mined that it was obtained. I use sodium and calcium all
the time in my sideline business and kitty litter at Walmarts price is
high. Any foundry supply can sell you either or or a mix of both in
all kinds of percentages for well under 8 or 10 bucks for a 100 pouond
bag full. a;lready ground to your choice of mesh sizes from stuff as
fine as talcum powder to granulated...........You need to use the
right mesh size........as I would imagine it would be hard to dust koi
feed with kitty litter....duh!




On Mon, 30 May 2005 16:04:57 -0500, "Reel McKoi"
> wrote:

>===<>
>===<>"Wilmdale" > wrote in message
...
>===<>> I just purchaed a 25 lb. bag for $1.97 + tax, US. The bag is red, say
>===<>> "Special Kitty" and the ingredient is 'ground clay'.
>===<>> Think it is the same thing? It looks like a duch ... "
>===<>> W. Dale
>===<>==================
>===<>I bought the same thing and it doesn't clog my filters or glob up. So it
>===<>must be the right product. :-)


==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!

~~~~ }<((((o> ~~~~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~~~~~ }<(((((o>

[Wilmdale]

Reel McKoi wrote:

>"Wilmdale" > wrote in message
...
>
>
>>I just purchaed a 25 lb. bag for $1.97 + tax, US. The bag is red, say
>>"Special Kitty" and the ingredient is 'ground clay'.
>>Think it is the same thing? It looks like a duch ... "
>>W. Dale
>>
>>
>==================
>I bought the same thing and it doesn't clog my filters or glob up. So it
>must be the right product. :-)
>
>
How much are you using per gallon or litre?
W. Dale

[~ janj JJsPond.us]

>It is gray. Is that the same stuff?
>W. Dale

Hmmmm, not sure. The koi clay I've seen has been more buff or tan in color.
Roy seems to know a lot about this, perhaps he can clue us in. I assume
anyone buying this would crush it up, not use the nuggets. ;o) ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

[~Roy~]

Sodium (western type) is more on the grey side, but it can also be
creame or tan as it depends on what depth it was mined at, and the
area it came from up in that area of the country where its mined,
which is Montana, Wyoming and the Dakotas .

Calcium for the most part is usually a cream of buff / tan color, and
ther larger the mesh size the more pronounced the color is.......

Both of the bentonites are collodial type clays which means they
expand and multiply in size as they get hydrated..........and both
will clump to some degree. Sodium will expand upwards of 22 or more
times its original size, and calcium can expand up to 5 times, with
about 3 being more common.

Calcium when wet and mixed feels slick and smooth but not sticky, as
sodium is, which feels like a handfull of slugs in a bowl of jello,
anmd has a heavy thick body to it. Using granulated form is wasted
material as what is in the granule will just expand out and stick to
each grain in that granule. Finer mesh gives more surface area and it
has to "hunt" for other particles to bond to. You can try crushing it
up buyt its almost impossible to do it right without a ball mill. I
know folks that have bought kiutty litter to make foundry sand and
wore out their wifes blenders, coffee grinders, cake mixers and wore
themselves out beating it up into fine particle size with hammers and
mortars and pestles, and it still does not work as good as stuff thats
ground up uniformly with a ball mill and seived.Kitty littler is
sodium so it is not what you want to use.....if it says clumping its
definately sodium bentonite ...although it will work fine with plants.

I just would not want to run sodium bentonite thorugh a filter system
or pipes as it leaves a film and its sediment is going to make things
prone to blocking or reducing flow.

On Tue, 31 May 2005 17:54:29 -0700, ~ janj JJsPond.us
> wrote:

>===<>
>===<>>It is gray. Is that the same stuff?
>===<>>W. Dale
>===<>
>===<>Hmmmm, not sure. The koi clay I've seen has been more buff or tan in color.
>===<>Roy seems to know a lot about this, perhaps he can clue us in. I assume
>===<>anyone buying this would crush it up, not use the nuggets. ;o) ~ jan
>===<>
>===<> ~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~


==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!

~~~~ }<((((o> ~~~~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~~~~~ }<(((((o>

[~ janj JJsPond.us]

On Wed, 01 Jun 2005 01:28:35 GMT, (~Roy~) wrote:

>Sodium (western type) is more on the grey side, but it can also be
>creame or tan as it depends on what depth it was mined at, and the
>area it came from up in that area of the country where its mined,
>which is Montana, Wyoming and the Dakotas .
>
>Calcium for the most part is usually a cream of buff / tan color, and
>ther larger the mesh size the more pronounced the color is.......
>
>Both of the bentonites are collodial type clays which means they
>expand and multiply in size as they get hydrated..........and both
>will clump to some degree. Sodium will expand upwards of 22 or more
>times its original size, and calcium can expand up to 5 times, with
>about 3 being more common.
>
>Calcium when wet and mixed feels slick and smooth but not sticky, as
>sodium is, which feels like a handfull of slugs in a bowl of jello,
>anmd has a heavy thick body to it. Using granulated form is wasted
>material as what is in the granule will just expand out and stick to
>each grain in that granule. Finer mesh gives more surface area and it
>has to "hunt" for other particles to bond to. You can try crushing it
>up buyt its almost impossible to do it right without a ball mill. I
>know folks that have bought kiutty litter to make foundry sand and
>wore out their wifes blenders, coffee grinders, cake mixers and wore
>themselves out beating it up into fine particle size with hammers and
>mortars and pestles, and it still does not work as good as stuff thats
>ground up uniformly with a ball mill and seived.Kitty littler is
>sodium so it is not what you want to use.....if it says clumping its
>definately sodium bentonite ...although it will work fine with plants.
>
>I just would not want to run sodium bentonite thorugh a filter system
>or pipes as it leaves a film and its sediment is going to make things
>prone to blocking or reducing flow.

Okay, sounds like kitty litter is out, cheapest is not always best. I got a
free sample of this: www.perfectearthkoi.com a couple years back, it looks
like good stuff. ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

[Wilmdale]

~ janj JJsPond.us wrote:

>On Wed, 01 Jun 2005 01:28:35 GMT, (~Roy~) wrote:
>
>
>
>>Sodium (western type) is more on the grey side, but it can also be
>>creame or tan as it depends on what depth it was mined at, and the
>>area it came from up in that area of the country where its mined,
>>which is Montana, Wyoming and the Dakotas .
>>
>>Calcium for the most part is usually a cream of buff / tan color, and
>>ther larger the mesh size the more pronounced the color is.......
>>
>>Both of the bentonites are collodial type clays which means they
>>expand and multiply in size as they get hydrated..........and both
>>will clump to some degree. Sodium will expand upwards of 22 or more
>>times its original size, and calcium can expand up to 5 times, with
>>about 3 being more common.
>>
>>Calcium when wet and mixed feels slick and smooth but not sticky, as
>>sodium is, which feels like a handfull of slugs in a bowl of jello,
>>anmd has a heavy thick body to it. Using granulated form is wasted
>>material as what is in the granule will just expand out and stick to
>>each grain in that granule. Finer mesh gives more surface area and it
>>has to "hunt" for other particles to bond to. You can try crushing it
>>up buyt its almost impossible to do it right without a ball mill. I
>>know folks that have bought kiutty litter to make foundry sand and
>>wore out their wifes blenders, coffee grinders, cake mixers and wore
>>themselves out beating it up into fine particle size with hammers and
>>mortars and pestles, and it still does not work as good as stuff thats
>>ground up uniformly with a ball mill and seived.Kitty littler is
>>sodium so it is not what you want to use.....if it says clumping its
>>definately sodium bentonite ...although it will work fine with plants.
>>
>>I just would not want to run sodium bentonite thorugh a filter system
>>or pipes as it leaves a film and its sediment is going to make things
>>prone to blocking or reducing flow.
>>
>>
>
>Okay, sounds like kitty litter is out, cheapest is not always best. I got a
>free sample of this: www.perfectearthkoi.com a couple years back, it looks
>like good stuff. ~ jan
>
> ~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~
>
>
Yep, that is what is sounds like. I wonder what kind of kitty litter
all those other posters are talking about? I put some water on the
wally world stuff and it did not clump as much as dissolve, sort of. On
another note, what is everyone's favorite pump?
Thanks for the input everybody! :-)
W. Dale

[Koi4Me]

"~ janj JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
...
> Okay, sounds like kitty litter is out, cheapest is not always best. I got
a
> free sample of this: www.perfectearthkoi.com a couple years back, it
looks
> like good stuff. ~ jan
==========================================
In 4 lbs boxes$24.95/box delivered
Full case (8 x 4 lbs boxes)$159.60/case delivered
Pail (50 lbs)$255/pail delivered

For CLAY!!! :-D

Kitty-Litter = 50 lbs for $3.99 = how did our fish ever live and reporduce
without all these "supplements?"
--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
EVERYONE: "Please check people's headers for forgeries
before flushing." NAMES ARE BEING FORGED.
Do not feed the trolls.
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[~Roy~]

Yea kitty litter for $3.99.....cheap enough, but the wrong material no
matter what the case, why not use just dirt it would serve the same
purpose and is even cheaper and probably do just as good........ if
your so darned intent on using sodium bentonite for koi clay
substitute.... then any media would serve.............duh!




On Wed, 1 Jun 2005 22:01:15 -0500, "Koi4Me" >
wrote:

>===<>
>===<>"~ janj JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
...
>===<>> Okay, sounds like kitty litter is out, cheapest is not always best. I got
>===<>a
>===<>> free sample of this: www.perfectearthkoi.com a couple years back, it
>===<>looks
>===<>> like good stuff. ~ jan
>===<>==========================================
>===<>In 4 lbs boxes$24.95/box delivered
>===<>Full case (8 x 4 lbs boxes)$159.60/case delivered
>===<>Pail (50 lbs)$255/pail delivered
>===<>
>===<>For CLAY!!! :-D
>===<>
>===<>Kitty-Litter = 50 lbs for $3.99 = how did our fish ever live and reporduce
>===<>without all these "supplements?"


==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!

~~~~ }<((((o> ~~~~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~~~~~ }<(((((o>

[~ janj JJsPond.us]

>Yea kitty litter for $3.99.....cheap enough, but the wrong material no
>matter what the case, why not use just dirt it would serve the same
>purpose and is even cheaper and probably do just as good........ if
>your so darned intent on using sodium bentonite for koi clay
>substitute.... then any media would serve.............duh!
>
Yep, (I agree) why bother if it isn't going to give the results. For those
of us with koi that we want to bring out their colors to their fullest one
has to use the right stuff. ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

[mark Bannister]

What everyone also needs to remember is marketing, distribution and
perceived value. Golf ball makers are great at marketing the same
product under different names to different markets and very different
prices. The very same golf ball you buy at Wally World for $.25 may be
sold at a high end golf shop for $2.00 a pop. Same ball, different
package and very different marketing techniques.
While the Wally world ball may get no marketing, the high end ball may
be sponsoring a televised golf tournament. It also has a much nicer
package. But the biggest factor is that folks at the high end golf
store aren't there to buy 25 cent golf balls and they won't.

I'm not defending overpriced resellers (I've seen the same items vary in
price by factors of 3 or more), but you are talking very low volumes and
a niche market. To market a bag of clay to Koi folks is a much
different thing than marketing to cat lovers.

Mark B.

[Koi4Me]

"~Roy~" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Yea kitty litter for $3.99.....cheap enough, but the wrong material no
> matter what the case, why not use just dirt it would serve the same
> purpose and is even cheaper and probably do just as good.

## They already get a good clay soil from the potted pond plants in the
pond. Their colors are vivid now. :-) The soil comes from behind our
house at the edge of the woods. There must also be something in kitty
litter because they like it.

........ if
> your so darned intent on using sodium bentonite for koi clay
> substitute.... then any media would serve.............duh!

## Actually I don't need a clay for them to darken their colors since they
are very vivid now. People here *GASP* when someone mentions feeding their
koi and GF catfish pellets ($10 per 50 lbs) and yet my fish are thriving on
and reproducing like rabbits on them - with excellent color. Why pay 20
times the price for specialty brands?

You say "duh" a lot, my teenage granddaughters and their pals do as
well.....
--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
EVERYONE: "Please check people's headers for forgeries
before flushing." NAMES ARE BEING FORGED.
Do not feed the trolls.
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Koi4Me]

"mark Bannister" > wrote in message
...
> I'm not defending overpriced resellers (I've seen the same items vary in
> price by factors of 3 or more), but you are talking very low volumes and
> a niche market. To market a bag of clay to Koi folks is a much
> different thing than marketing to cat lovers.
>
> Mark B.
===========================
Marketing? The worst case I ever saw was the jeans a "snob" friend of mine
bought at the Mall some time ago. She's too good to shop at Wally-World.
She feels the shops at the Mall have better "quality" since they're so
expensive. She paid $49.99 for a pair of jeans that looked very familiar to
me. I checked my stock of jeans and sure enough - I had the same exact pair
and paid $16.99 for them. Only the label was different and in a different
place. We could find no other difference.

The prices of things for ornamental fish hobbyists are obscene........

McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
EVERYONE: "Please check people's headers for forgeries
before flushing." NAMES ARE BEING FORGED.
Do not feed the trolls.
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[~Roy~]

See carol I can waste just as much space as you can witho using just
one word instead of a mouthfull of crap......duh!

duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duhduh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duhduh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duhduh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duhduh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duhduh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duhduh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duhduh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duhduh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duhduh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duhduh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duhduh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duhduh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duhduh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duhduh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duhduh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duhduh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duhduh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duhduh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duhduh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duhduh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duhduh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duhduh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duhduh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duhduh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duhduh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duhduh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duhduh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duhduh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duhduh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duhduh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duhduh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duhduh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duhduh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duhduh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duhduh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duhduh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duhduh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duhduh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duhduh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duhduh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duhduh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duhduh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duhduh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duhduh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duhduh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duhduh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duhduh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duhduh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duhduh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duhduh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duhduh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duhduh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duhduh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duhduh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duhduh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duhduh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
duh duh duh duh

==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!

~~~~ }<((((o> ~~~~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~~~~~ }<(((((o>

[Koi4Me]

"~Roy~" > wrote in message
...
>
> See carol I can waste just as much space as you can witho using just
> one word instead of a mouthfull of crap......duh!
==================
Here I thought you were an adult mentioning owning ponds etc, but I see
you're really only about 13 or 14 years old - back into the BOZO BIN with
you.... PLONK!
--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
EVERYONE: "Please check people's headers for forgeries
before flushing." NAMES ARE BEING FORGED.
Do not feed the trolls.
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>
"

[~Roy~]

Don't do me no favors..............thats what you get for "thinking"
Thnking is out of your league........

DUH, see there I said it again...DUH DUH DUH



On Thu, 2 Jun 2005 21:17:57 -0500, "Koi4Me" >
wrote:

>===<>
>===<>"~Roy~" > wrote in message
...
>===<>>
>===<>> See carol I can waste just as much space as you can witho using just
>===<>> one word instead of a mouthfull of crap......duh!
>===<>==================
>===<>Here I thought you were an adult mentioning owning ponds etc, but I see
>===<>you're really only about 13 or 14 years old - back into the BOZO BIN with
>===<>you.... PLONK!


==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!

~~~~ }<((((o> ~~~~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~~~~~ }<(((((o>