2 injured gouramis

[[email protected]]

B"H
5/22/05

I have a 29g freshwater tank. In it I have 3 gouramis (7.5 inch
Snakeskin, 4 inch platinum and a 4 inch blue.), an angelfish. (The
angel is currently resting on the bottom and looks like he's going to
die any day. I have no clue what's wrong, so I am treating with
melafix. I have hope he'll pull through though, whenever someone walks
by the tank he moves his fins and floats up in the water column alittle
for a few seconds and then slowly he goes back to the bottom. I haven't
seen him eat unfortunatley.), 4 or 5 cory's and a 6 inch Pleco. The
tank is about a year and a half old and fully cycled.

The platinum and blue gouramis, both of whom have been in this tank and
with the all the other fish mentioned above for about a year, are
recently not looking too good. The platinum has large chunks missing
from her pectoral fins and her tail fin, but she also has chunks
missing from other fins. She also has abbrasions on her body. The blue
gourami has abbrasions as well. Also, whenever the blue gourami floats
up or sinks down, he do it in a rocking fashion. Could he have a
swimbladder problem? My current train of thought is that the platinum
and blue gouramis are getting bullied by someone. I think this mainly
because the platinum spends most of her time hiding in a cave. But is
it possible that they bullying is a relativley new thing? These two
gouramis, like I said earlier have been in this tank for about a year
and have had no problems. I am totally at a loss for a definitive idea
as to what the problem is. Does anyyone have any ideas as to what is
going on with either the gouramis or the angel? Thanks for reading!

Tank Stats
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ammonia- 0ppm
Nitrite -0ppm
Ph- 6.7 ( I am currently bringing it up to around 7 or 7.2)
Temp- 78 degrees
Filter- Top Fin 30 (fully cycled, the cartridge gets replaced, or
atleast cleaned in old tank water once a month.)
Water Type- Usually tap water, but I have done the past few water
changes with R/O. I added in the trace elements
Feeding- I feed flakes twice a day and about twice a week I give put in
either alttle bit of bloodworms, tubifex worms or brine shrimp.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Evan Davis

[Gill Passman]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> B"H
> 5/22/05
>
> I have a 29g freshwater tank. In it I have 3 gouramis (7.5 inch
> Snakeskin, 4 inch platinum and a 4 inch blue.), an angelfish. (The
> angel is currently resting on the bottom and looks like he's going to
> die any day. I have no clue what's wrong, so I am treating with
> melafix. I have hope he'll pull through though, whenever someone walks
> by the tank he moves his fins and floats up in the water column alittle
> for a few seconds and then slowly he goes back to the bottom. I haven't
> seen him eat unfortunatley.), 4 or 5 cory's and a 6 inch Pleco. The
> tank is about a year and a half old and fully cycled.
>
> The platinum and blue gouramis, both of whom have been in this tank and
> with the all the other fish mentioned above for about a year, are
> recently not looking too good. The platinum has large chunks missing
> from her pectoral fins and her tail fin, but she also has chunks
> missing from other fins. She also has abbrasions on her body. The blue
> gourami has abbrasions as well. Also, whenever the blue gourami floats
> up or sinks down, he do it in a rocking fashion. Could he have a
> swimbladder problem? My current train of thought is that the platinum
> and blue gouramis are getting bullied by someone. I think this mainly
> because the platinum spends most of her time hiding in a cave. But is
> it possible that they bullying is a relativley new thing? These two
> gouramis, like I said earlier have been in this tank for about a year
> and have had no problems. I am totally at a loss for a definitive idea
> as to what the problem is. Does anyyone have any ideas as to what is
> going on with either the gouramis or the angel? Thanks for reading!
>
> Tank Stats
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Ammonia- 0ppm
> Nitrite -0ppm
> Ph- 6.7 ( I am currently bringing it up to around 7 or 7.2)
> Temp- 78 degrees
> Filter- Top Fin 30 (fully cycled, the cartridge gets replaced, or
> atleast cleaned in old tank water once a month.)
> Water Type- Usually tap water, but I have done the past few water
> changes with R/O. I added in the trace elements
> Feeding- I feed flakes twice a day and about twice a week I give put in
> either alttle bit of bloodworms, tubifex worms or brine shrimp.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Evan Davis
>
I would guess the main suspect would be the snakeskin gourami but from
research it appears to be peaceful....but do not rule it out. I have had
experience of bullying and death of a fish in my Gourami community - in my
case it was a beta blue male gourami being killed off by the alpha - don't
rule it out. I don't think really think the corys or the plec would be the
bullies...from your posting it looks like the snakeskin - in spite of the
hiding - is the one without injury - another possible piece of evidence
maybe.....

Personally I wouldn't mess with the pH you are getting into all sorts of
trouble doing this and if the fish are used to your tap water pH I would
leave it that way but just IMO.....the major change seems to be the switch
to RO water - I've never been truly convinced about this unless I was
seriously looking at breeding fish.

It does sound to me like bullying.....is there anyway you can isolate the
snakeskin for a while - for example a breeding trap?

Gill

[[email protected]]

Thanks for the reply.

As far as isolating the snakeskin goes, I don't have the breeding trap,
nor do I have extra tank space. I think I am inclined to agree with you
about the snakeskin being the culprit, this due to the fact that when
the tank was first starting out, I had to move a female snakeskin to a
different tank.

When it comes to changing the Ph, I just began knocking the Ph up last
night so I don't think think this did anything to the fish. The
angelfish was already in her state prior to my tweakiung with the Ph.

Thanks again for the reply.
Evan

[Dick]

On 22 May 2005 15:33:50 -0700, wrote:

>Thanks for the reply.
>
>As far as isolating the snakeskin goes, I don't have the breeding trap,
>nor do I have extra tank space. I think I am inclined to agree with you
>about the snakeskin being the culprit, this due to the fact that when
>the tank was first starting out, I had to move a female snakeskin to a
>different tank.
>
>When it comes to changing the Ph, I just began knocking the Ph up last
>night so I don't think think this did anything to the fish. The
>angelfish was already in her state prior to my tweakiung with the Ph.
>
>Thanks again for the reply.
>Evan

Perhaps I missed something, but do you know the sex of the fish
invovled? I have 2 male Blue Gouramis with 1 female. Most of the
time they stay in separate territories in their 75 gallon tank, but
once in awhile they make the tank a hazardous place to live. All of
the other fish stay close to the bottom and go into the plants to keep
out of the way.

As for the Angel I suppose it was an innocent bystander. If it was in
the way of some fighting it could have gotten a body blow hurting an
internal organ. If your Angelfish is like mine, it believes the tank
belongs to it and wouldn't dodge danger.

dick

[Scott]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Thanks for the reply.
>
> As far as isolating the snakeskin goes, I don't have the breeding trap,
> nor do I have extra tank space. I think I am inclined to agree with you
> about the snakeskin being the culprit, this due to the fact that when
> the tank was first starting out, I had to move a female snakeskin to a
> different tank.
>
> When it comes to changing the Ph, I just began knocking the Ph up last
> night so I don't think think this did anything to the fish. The
> angelfish was already in her state prior to my tweakiung with the Ph.
>
> Thanks again for the reply.
> Evan
>

The point was not WHEN you started tweaking the pH, it was that you are
doing it at all. You will make your tank much more difficult to maintain
when you start messing with the water chemistry for your FW fish. You will
most likely be prone to large pH swings which are much more stressful than
keeping the fish in a slightly less than ideal pH level.

---scott

[[email protected]]

The Blue gourami is a male, the platinum gourami is a female, the
snakeskin gourami is a male.

Evan Davis

[[email protected]]

Thanks for the advice, I iwll stop my Ph tweaking.

Evan Davis

[Derek Benson]

On 22 May 2005 14:53:48 -0700, wrote:

>B"H
>5/22/05
>
>I have a 29g freshwater tank. In it I have 3 gouramis (7.5 inch
>Snakeskin, 4 inch platinum and a 4 inch blue.), an angelfish. (The
>angel is currently resting on the bottom and looks like he's going to
>die any day. I have no clue what's wrong, so I am treating with
>melafix. I have hope he'll pull through though, whenever someone walks
>by the tank he moves his fins and floats up in the water column alittle
>for a few seconds and then slowly he goes back to the bottom. I haven't
>seen him eat unfortunatley.), 4 or 5 cory's and a 6 inch Pleco. The
>tank is about a year and a half old and fully cycled.
>
>The platinum and blue gouramis, both of whom have been in this tank and
>with the all the other fish mentioned above for about a year, are
>recently not looking too good. The platinum has large chunks missing
>from her pectoral fins and her tail fin, but she also has chunks
>missing from other fins. She also has abbrasions on her body. The blue
>gourami has abbrasions as well. Also, whenever the blue gourami floats
>up or sinks down, he do it in a rocking fashion. Could he have a
>swimbladder problem? My current train of thought is that the platinum
>and blue gouramis are getting bullied by someone. I think this mainly
>because the platinum spends most of her time hiding in a cave. But is
>it possible that they bullying is a relativley new thing? These two
>gouramis, like I said earlier have been in this tank for about a year
>and have had no problems. I am totally at a loss for a definitive idea
>as to what the problem is. Does anyyone have any ideas as to what is
>going on with either the gouramis or the angel? Thanks for reading!
>
>Tank Stats
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Ammonia- 0ppm
>Nitrite -0ppm
>Ph- 6.7 ( I am currently bringing it up to around 7 or 7.2)
>Temp- 78 degrees
>Filter- Top Fin 30 (fully cycled, the cartridge gets replaced, or
>atleast cleaned in old tank water once a month.)
>Water Type- Usually tap water, but I have done the past few water
>changes with R/O. I added in the trace elements
>Feeding- I feed flakes twice a day and about twice a week I give put in
>either alttle bit of bloodworms, tubifex worms or brine shrimp.
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>Evan Davis

I'm not convinced that this is a case of one fish bullying and
injuring the others. Have you seen the Snakeskin chasing the others?
If he is doing it, you will observe it during the daytime. A gourami
doesn't wait until lights out and then begin chasing other fish,
because they are not nocturnal fish.

The Blue Gourami also has this "rocking fish" problem and the Angel
has a problem of some sort. So my thinking (pure speculation) says a
build up of bacteria of some kind, bacteria which cause illness. Fin
and tail rot is an example of bacterial illness. Another possibility
is the build up of DOC's over time since the tank has been going for a
year. Both of these things can happen if the tank just isn't kept
clean enough.

So I want to ask you how often you vacuum the gravel, how often you
change water and how much water. The fish are probably a lot larger
than a year ago also, so keeping the place clean has to be stepped up,
compared to the exact same fish when they were much smaller.

-Derek

[[email protected]]

I do a 20% water change (with gravel vacuuming) once of other week, at
the very least I do it once every two weeks. I have never gone more
than three weeks without a water change. Do you think I should step up
the gravel vacuumings to once a week?

Evan Davis

[Dick]

On 23 May 2005 05:36:29 -0700, wrote:

>The Blue gourami is a male, the platinum gourami is a female, the
>snakeskin gourami is a male.
>
>Evan Davis

That might be a problem. Males fight over females. Really.
I have one male black molly that thinks the 6 inch Black Angelfish is
irresistible, having no female mollies around. Could be the males are
just doing their male thing fighting for dominance.

dick

[Dick]

On 23 May 2005 12:09:36 -0700, wrote:

>I do a 20% water change (with gravel vacuuming) once of other week, at
>the very least I do it once every two weeks. I have never gone more
>than three weeks without a water change. Do you think I should step up
>the gravel vacuumings to once a week?
>
>Evan Davis

I am a health nut about water changes. I leave the gravel alone, but
I do 20% changes twice weekly. Best habit I have formed in tank
maintenance.

Aren't fish wonderful? <g>

dick

[[email protected]]

This sounds pretty logical, however the female is far worse condition
than the male.

Evan Davis

[Derek Benson]

On 23 May 2005 12:09:36 -0700, wrote:

>I do a 20% water change (with gravel vacuuming) once of other week, at
>the very least I do it once every two weeks. I have never gone more
>than three weeks without a water change. Do you think I should step up
>the gravel vacuumings to once a week?
>
>Evan Davis

I think your water changes are much too little and infrequent with
these largish fish in a 29 gallon. With these fish I would do at least
40% or so every week, without skipping any weeks in between. Maybe
even a smallish water change in the middle of the week on top of this
weekend change (choose Saturday or Sunday, do it every weekend, this
is easy 'cause you've got the whole weekend!)

I also notice now that you haven't given a reading for Nitrate. 0 on
both ammonia and nitrite is fine, but the nitrate level is also
important, and this must be diluted out of the water by changing
water. Maybe the problems are related to high nitrate levels over a
period of time; although I really don't know if this could cause the
specific symptoms your fish have. When I've had too high nitrates in
my tanks the typical symptoms would be that some fish would become a
bit lethargic, less active, and would possibly be breathing a tad too
hard. Immediately after changing some water the fish would perk up.

-Derek

[Dick]

On 24 May 2005 05:04:39 -0700, wrote:

>This sounds pretty logical, however the female is far worse condition
>than the male.
>
>Evan Davis

No surprise, she might well be in the center of action. I have also
seen the escaping fish bump into objects or squeeze between the glass
and intake tubes. It is a pretty wild scene in progress. However, I
would be surprised if this happened and you didn't witness the
activity unless you were not at home. I hear the activity before I
see it, splashing water, bumping noises, hard to miss.

dick

[Dick]

On Tue, 24 May 2005 21:27:05 +0200, Derek Benson >
wrote:

>On 23 May 2005 12:09:36 -0700, wrote:
>
>>I do a 20% water change (with gravel vacuuming) once of other week, at
>>the very least I do it once every two weeks. I have never gone more
>>than three weeks without a water change. Do you think I should step up
>>the gravel vacuumings to once a week?
>>
>>Evan Davis
>
>I think your water changes are much too little and infrequent with
>these largish fish in a 29 gallon. With these fish I would do at least
>40% or so every week, without skipping any weeks in between. Maybe
>even a smallish water change in the middle of the week on top of this
>weekend change (choose Saturday or Sunday, do it every weekend, this
>is easy 'cause you've got the whole weekend!)
>
>I also notice now that you haven't given a reading for Nitrate. 0 on
>both ammonia and nitrite is fine, but the nitrate level is also
>important, and this must be diluted out of the water by changing
>water. Maybe the problems are related to high nitrate levels over a
>period of time; although I really don't know if this could cause the
>specific symptoms your fish have. When I've had too high nitrates in
>my tanks the typical symptoms would be that some fish would become a
>bit lethargic, less active, and would possibly be breathing a tad too
>hard. Immediately after changing some water the fish would perk up.
>
>-Derek

Really Derek, not every one is a job slave! <g>

I agree that frequent changes are valuable. One lady said she did
partial changes every night when she got home from work and found it
relaxing. Setting aside times that fit a personal life schedule and
keeping the procedure as simple as possible (e.g. not adding chemicals
if not necessary, using a Gravel Vac for larger tanks) are important
doing regular changes which, I believe, leads to a healthy tank.

dick

dick