Breeding angels - dither fish?

[Jim]

I have a pair of angelfish that have been laying eggs in my community
tank every 4 to 6 weeks for about a year. They seem to try to tend the
eggs ok, but usually the eggs disappear in 24 hours or so, so I'm
fairly sure the other fish are eating them.

I'm going to try them in their own tank to give them a chance to breed.

I'd like to include a few guppies. Will this be ok, or would the
angels be better off by themselves?

I've recently moved my Kribs to their own tank, with guppies for dither
fish, and they've bred for me for the first time.

Suggestions? Thanks in advance -- Jim

[Aidan Grey]

On 22 May 2005 15:29:42 -0700, Jim wrote:

>I have a pair of angelfish that have been laying eggs in my community
>tank every 4 to 6 weeks for about a year. They seem to try to tend the
>eggs ok, but usually the eggs disappear in 24 hours or so, so I'm
>fairly sure the other fish are eating them.
>
>I'm going to try them in their own tank to give them a chance to breed.
>
>I'd like to include a few guppies. Will this be ok, or would the
>angels be better off by themselves?
>
>I've recently moved my Kribs to their own tank, with guppies for dither
>fish, and they've bred for me for the first time.
>
>Suggestions? Thanks in advance -- Jim
>

I recommend that you leave out guppies, or any other type of fish. Also
leave out any snails.

Guppies can be quite ravenous when interesting food is available.

Aidan Grey

[Jim Anderson]

In article . com>,
says...

> I have a pair of angelfish that have been laying eggs in my community
> tank every 4 to 6 weeks for about a year. They seem to try to tend the
> eggs ok, but usually the eggs disappear in 24 hours or so, so I'm
> fairly sure the other fish are eating them.
>
> I'm going to try them in their own tank to give them a chance to breed.
>
> I'd like to include a few guppies. Will this be ok, or would the
> angels be better off by themselves?
>
> I've recently moved my Kribs to their own tank, with guppies for dither
> fish, and they've bred for me for the first time.
>
> Suggestions? Thanks in advance -- Jim
>
>

When the eggs hatch, the babies have a huge yoke sack that makes them
sink to the gravel. I think it then takes 3-4 days to become free
swimming with a much smaller yoke sack.

--
Jim Anderson
( 8(|) To email me just pull my_finger

[Elaine T]

Jim wrote:
> I have a pair of angelfish that have been laying eggs in my community
> tank every 4 to 6 weeks for about a year. They seem to try to tend the
> eggs ok, but usually the eggs disappear in 24 hours or so, so I'm
> fairly sure the other fish are eating them.
>
> I'm going to try them in their own tank to give them a chance to breed.
>
> I'd like to include a few guppies. Will this be ok, or would the
> angels be better off by themselves?
>
> I've recently moved my Kribs to their own tank, with guppies for dither
> fish, and they've bred for me for the first time.
>
> Suggestions? Thanks in advance -- Jim
>
Professional breeders keep angels alone. If they eat the eggs in a
breeding tank, allow them to lay eggs and then return them to the
community so you can raise the fry.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com
PGP key at http://pgpkeys.mit.edu:11371/

[bassett]

If the female has spawned that much, the male should have got the idea by
now, are you sure they are a pair.
Feed Bloody worms for a while and see if that gets him going. Mine
normally lay on the UGF air tubes, and the kids attach themselves there
until they start to swim. And I normally change the Air Tubes a day or so,
before they start to swim, If I leave them , they will starve as they have
no idea what food is, I normally leave the tube in a small net cage, and
feed them in that, That way there swimming in the food, and the adults can't
get into the food.
bassett

"Jim Anderson" > wrote in message
t...
> In article . com>,
> says...
>
>> I have a pair of angelfish that have been laying eggs in my community
>> tank every 4 to 6 weeks for about a year. They seem to try to tend the
>> eggs ok, but usually the eggs disappear in 24 hours or so, so I'm
>> fairly sure the other fish are eating them.
>>
>> I'm going to try them in their own tank to give them a chance to breed.
>>
>> I'd like to include a few guppies. Will this be ok, or would the
>> angels be better off by themselves?
>>
>> I've recently moved my Kribs to their own tank, with guppies for dither
>> fish, and they've bred for me for the first time.
>>
>> Suggestions? Thanks in advance -- Jim
>>
>>
>
> When the eggs hatch, the babies have a huge yoke sack that makes them
> sink to the gravel. I think it then takes 3-4 days to become free
> swimming with a much smaller yoke sack.
>
> --
> Jim Anderson
> ( 8(|) To email me just pull my_finger

[Tynk]

Elaine's right on. = )
Now, if you are going to be breeding these Angels and raising the fry,
you will need:
Bare bottom tank. NO GRAVEL. The fry will become trapped in between it
and die.
Spone filter. Any other type will suck up the fry and kill them.
Heater. Submersible, and kept at 82-82*f. Make sure have a good
thermometer as well.
You don't want the temp to fluxuate up and down, so you need to keep an
eye on it.
NO other fish in the spawning tank, not even a snail.
The eggs or fry will be eaten when the parents are eating their food or
at night when sleeping. A snail can wipe out an entire batch of eggs in
no time...as well as a Pleco too.

[Elaine T]

Tynk wrote:
> Elaine's right on. = )
> Now, if you are going to be breeding these Angels and raising the fry,
> you will need:
> Bare bottom tank. NO GRAVEL. The fry will become trapped in between it
> and die.
> Spone filter. Any other type will suck up the fry and kill them.
> Heater. Submersible, and kept at 82-82*f. Make sure have a good
> thermometer as well.
> You don't want the temp to fluxuate up and down, so you need to keep an
> eye on it.
> NO other fish in the spawning tank, not even a snail.
> The eggs or fry will be eaten when the parents are eating their food or
> at night when sleeping. A snail can wipe out an entire batch of eggs in
> no time...as well as a Pleco too.
>
I see you breed angels as well as bettas, tnyk. I'm impressed!
Breeding angels always sounded tough. I've only done Africans, and
they're way easier.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Gill Passman]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
...
> Tynk wrote:
> > Elaine's right on. = )
> > Now, if you are going to be breeding these Angels and raising the fry,
> > you will need:
> > Bare bottom tank. NO GRAVEL. The fry will become trapped in between it
> > and die.
> > Spone filter. Any other type will suck up the fry and kill them.
> > Heater. Submersible, and kept at 82-82*f. Make sure have a good
> > thermometer as well.
> > You don't want the temp to fluxuate up and down, so you need to keep an
> > eye on it.
> > NO other fish in the spawning tank, not even a snail.
> > The eggs or fry will be eaten when the parents are eating their food or
> > at night when sleeping. A snail can wipe out an entire batch of eggs in
> > no time...as well as a Pleco too.
> >
> I see you breed angels as well as bettas, tnyk. I'm impressed!
> Breeding angels always sounded tough. I've only done Africans, and
> they're way easier.
>
> --
> Elaine T __
> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

My Africans do it all themselves - lol. I was a bit worried though when one
of the boys put on a show for my hand when I was scraping algae the other
night - eek

I'm impressed as well....I would never have the space to do breed fish
properly - although there is always the shed (but it doesn't seem quite the
same to me). Did quite well on my platy and mollie fry at my local place -
exchanged them for 3 otos - maybe not a good deal but it was better than the
nothing I expected

Gill

[Tynk]

Hehe, they're my first passion and Bettas second.
Breeding Angels is quite easy as long as the Angels pair off and you
have room for both parents to be on their own, and grow out tanks for
fry.
Keep the frys bellies full and all will be fine.
Always use a bare bottom tank with them, as the fry will become
trapped...even by the smallest gravel. (I have not tried with sand).
The next thing is filtration. Has to be a sponge filter or the fry will
get sucked up.
Other than that, they're pretty easy (compaired to Bettas anyway, and
other types of fish).

[Tynk]

ROFL!
I have been know to have grow out tanks in the garage from late Spring
to early Fall. = )~

I also *used* to have a fish room. Then we needed the that room for our
second child. There went the fish room. Hehe
I thought I'd get it back, or at least half of the room when our oldest
moved out, like he did a few months ago, but hubby took it over for an
office and put his foot down this time. No fish tanks in there!
LOL...he's so cute. I've got them everywhere in the house, except for
the bathrooms.
He gave up on the "do you really need another fish tank?"

[Jim]

Thanks to all for the advice!

After about 72 hours in the new tank, we have 2 swordplant leaves full
of eggs, with both parents tending them. I had been concerned that I
might have had a "breeding pair of females". However, I seem to recall
somewhere that fertile eggs are a translucent tan, and infertile white.
There are a batch of the former, and a very few of the latter (which
are being thinned out by the parents), so I now assume I do indeed have
a male & female.

I removed the guppies, per your advice. I'm afraid I'm too late on the
substrate, so will just have to see if any of this batch survive the
trip to the gravel (assuming the eggs do hatch). Also too late for the
sponge filter, but will turn the flow on the power filter way down &
see if any survive that.

Is the liquid food from fish stores or frozen baby brine shrimp
acceptable food for the fry? I think that's about all I have access
to.

Thanks again -- Jim

[Daniel Morrow]

"Jim" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Thanks to all for the advice!
>
> After about 72 hours in the new tank, we have 2 swordplant leaves full
> of eggs, with both parents tending them. I had been concerned that I
> might have had a "breeding pair of females". However, I seem to recall
> somewhere that fertile eggs are a translucent tan, and infertile white.
> There are a batch of the former, and a very few of the latter (which
> are being thinned out by the parents), so I now assume I do indeed have
> a male & female.
>
> I removed the guppies, per your advice. I'm afraid I'm too late on the
> substrate, so will just have to see if any of this batch survive the
> trip to the gravel (assuming the eggs do hatch). Also too late for the
> sponge filter, but will turn the flow on the power filter way down &
> see if any survive that.
>
> Is the liquid food from fish stores or frozen baby brine shrimp
> acceptable food for the fry? I think that's about all I have access
> to.
>
> Thanks again -- Jim
>

Don't forget the old standby of fish fry food - yolk from a boiled egg
squeezed through a fine mesh (usually cloth)....Both of the other types of
fish fry food that you mentioned are good except I am not sure if the newly
hatched brine shrimp are too big for angel fish fry or not. Good luck and
later!

[bassett]

Get some frozen baby daphnia, but the problem is to get the fish [fry] to
the food, The kids have no idea what food is, Wardley's make a product ,
comes in a tube, "liquid small fry'' I keep a tube in the fridge.
But you would be better off taking the leaf's and sticking them in a net
cage, on no account take them out of the water, even for a second, If you
leave them there the parents will play silly buggers, catching the kids up,
in there mouths, and spiting them back on the heap, then when they do all
finely swim, they will all try different ways of killing themselves, But if
you contain them, the food finds them, The parents will go back to breeding,
take the 2nd lot and let them have the 3 lot.
Or leave thing as they are and you will loose the lot. You can always
stick a bit of "stocking" over the filter intake tube, or disconnect it for
a couple of days.
bassett


"Jim" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Thanks to all for the advice!
>
> After about 72 hours in the new tank, we have 2 swordplant leaves full
> of eggs, with both parents tending them. I had been concerned that I
> might have had a "breeding pair of females". However, I seem to recall
> somewhere that fertile eggs are a translucent tan, and infertile white.
> There are a batch of the former, and a very few of the latter (which
> are being thinned out by the parents), so I now assume I do indeed have
> a male & female.
>
> I removed the guppies, per your advice. I'm afraid I'm too late on the
> substrate, so will just have to see if any of this batch survive the
> trip to the gravel (assuming the eggs do hatch). Also too late for the
> sponge filter, but will turn the flow on the power filter way down &
> see if any survive that.
>
> Is the liquid food from fish stores or frozen baby brine shrimp
> acceptable food for the fry? I think that's about all I have access
> to.
>
> Thanks again -- Jim
>

[Tynk]

Hi there.
Glad you took out the Gups. They would have been killed.
Angelfish parents are quite protective of their eggs/brood.
As for the gravel....they all may bite the dust once they get bedded
down for the night. The parents will "bed them down" at night (this is
after they're free swimming) and they will become trapped in it.
Also, any that may fall off the leaf/leaves when they're still
wrigglers may also become trapped before the parents notice the fallen.
As for the filter....you are either going to have to get a sponge
filter or do something with the existing intake tube. Possibly you can
find a small spong insert for other spong filters that you can cut to
fit over the intake. It will save your fry, as a power or conister
filter will be sudden death for them.

[Jim]

What is the refractory time for a female?

Here's the update - the eggs disappeared off the first two leaves
within 24 hours, assume the parents ate them.

3 days after that, there was a new set of eggs on a different leaf.

I'm wondering if this confirms that I actually have a pair of females?
Would a single female lay two batches of eggs that close together? I
can't seem to catch them laying eggs, and for the life of me can't
figure out the difference in the little pointy things that stick out of
them when breeding.

This second batch in the new tank has lasted overnight a couple nights,
but the vast majority of eggs have turned from translucent tan to
opaque white. Am I right in assuming this means those eggs that have
turned are dead/infertile? Would this also indicate a pair of females?

I'll let this batch fare as they might, and if any hatch will probably
lose them to the gravel.

Next batch I'll take the advice so generously given & either

a) put the leaf in a net cage in the same tank, or

b) try removing the leaf (in water from the same tank, via plastic box
rather than net) to a bare-bottom sponge filter tank I have going,
probably w/ water from the breeding tank.

Of course, both options assume that there's a remote chance that I
don't actually have a pair of females.

If I actually get a hatching, I'll try feeding the commercial liquid
small fry food, and the boiled egg yolk trick. On the yolk, do you mix
it with water before straining, or squeeze it while dry? Will it
squeeze through a handkerchief ok?

Sound like a plan?

Thanks again -- Jim

[bassett]

See if you can look at them , side on. Not easy, They always want to look
back at you. From there nose up to the first fin, is it a gentle
curve,[female] or is there a high point, change of angle, bump, [male]

As for food, I don,t understand the handkerchief thing, sorry. When next in
your aquarium, ask for some baby Daphnia, Then leave it in the freezer,
until you need it. But tell the boss what it is, or you might find it in
the stew.
bassett

"Jim" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> What is the refractory time for a female?
>
> Here's the update - the eggs disappeared off the first two leaves
> within 24 hours, assume the parents ate them.
>
> 3 days after that, there was a new set of eggs on a different leaf.
>
> I'm wondering if this confirms that I actually have a pair of females?
> Would a single female lay two batches of eggs that close together? I
> can't seem to catch them laying eggs, and for the life of me can't
> figure out the difference in the little pointy things that stick out of
> them when breeding.
>
> This second batch in the new tank has lasted overnight a couple nights,
> but the vast majority of eggs have turned from translucent tan to
> opaque white. Am I right in assuming this means those eggs that have
> turned are dead/infertile? Would this also indicate a pair of females?
>
> I'll let this batch fare as they might, and if any hatch will probably
> lose them to the gravel.
>
> Next batch I'll take the advice so generously given & either
>
> a) put the leaf in a net cage in the same tank, or
>
> b) try removing the leaf (in water from the same tank, via plastic box
> rather than net) to a bare-bottom sponge filter tank I have going,
> probably w/ water from the breeding tank.
>
> Of course, both options assume that there's a remote chance that I
> don't actually have a pair of females.
>
> If I actually get a hatching, I'll try feeding the commercial liquid
> small fry food, and the boiled egg yolk trick. On the yolk, do you mix
> it with water before straining, or squeeze it while dry? Will it
> squeeze through a handkerchief ok?
>
> Sound like a plan?
>
> Thanks again -- Jim
>

[Daniel Morrow]

"Jim" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> What is the refractory time for a female?
>
> Here's the update - the eggs disappeared off the first two leaves
> within 24 hours, assume the parents ate them.
>
> 3 days after that, there was a new set of eggs on a different leaf.
>
> I'm wondering if this confirms that I actually have a pair of females?
> Would a single female lay two batches of eggs that close together? I
> can't seem to catch them laying eggs, and for the life of me can't
> figure out the difference in the little pointy things that stick out of
> them when breeding.
>
> This second batch in the new tank has lasted overnight a couple nights,
> but the vast majority of eggs have turned from translucent tan to
> opaque white. Am I right in assuming this means those eggs that have
> turned are dead/infertile? Would this also indicate a pair of females?
>
> I'll let this batch fare as they might, and if any hatch will probably
> lose them to the gravel.
>
> Next batch I'll take the advice so generously given & either
>
> a) put the leaf in a net cage in the same tank, or
>
> b) try removing the leaf (in water from the same tank, via plastic box
> rather than net) to a bare-bottom sponge filter tank I have going,
> probably w/ water from the breeding tank.
>
> Of course, both options assume that there's a remote chance that I
> don't actually have a pair of females.
>
> If I actually get a hatching, I'll try feeding the commercial liquid
> small fry food, and the boiled egg yolk trick. On the yolk, do you mix
> it with water before straining, or squeeze it while dry? Will it
> squeeze through a handkerchief ok?
>
> Sound like a plan?
>

Sounds like a plan! My understanding is that you squeeze while dry, but if
the handkerchief is too dense try something more porous like a sock or
cotton t-shirt cloth. Mixing with water first might work. Good luck and
later!

> Thanks again -- Jim
>