Betta questions

[Sarah Navarro]

Hi all,

I am going to be getting some young bettas next week. I have some
questions. I have some small tanks ready for them with undergravel filters.
I was told that bettas don't like water that moves, that they only like
still water. Is that correct? Also, I know the males have to be seperate,
but can the females be housed together? What temp is best for them? So far
I have not had good luck with bettas, I have killed two already. They were
walmart fish, the ones I will be getting are from a breeder, so hopefully it
will be better. Thanks.

[Lisa]

Hi, Sarah - try this site: www.nippyfish.net

I think it is a well-written and very sensible site. The author posts
on this group sometimes, too. I currently have 3 very happy and
handsome bettas, using the information I learned from this site and
others. I have 2 males in a divided 10-gallon (each with his own
Otto), and one male in another 6-gallon mini-bow tank. The divided
males have an UGF and seem content. The other male has a Whisper HOB
filter (Hang-On-Back) and also doesn't seem to mind the current it
produces. His bubblenests are larger than the others - not sure what
that means, but all 3 seem full of pep and activity. All are kept at
79 F or so temps.

I thought the two divided fish would be happier, but all 3 seem to
thrive in their "isolation." The divided two just ignore each other,
so no biggie. They don't even flare - I think that perhaps the mesh
screen I installed is more opaque to them than I realized.

There are other informational sites that others here can recommend,
too. Basically, clean, heated water and a somewhat varied diet will be
the keys to success. I do 20-30% water changes per week. Sorry that I
don't know much about females - I've only had the males.

Cheers,

- Lisa

[Daniel Morrow]

"Sarah Navarro" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Hi all,
>
> I am going to be getting some young bettas next week. I have some
> questions. I have some small tanks ready for them with undergravel
filters.
> I was told that bettas don't like water that moves, that they only like
> still water. Is that correct? Also, I know the males

I don't know about moving water - I think it would be fine to use a ugf with
them in most cases, I used a corner box filter with mine in the past with no
problems for over a year (filters were air powered of course).

have to be seperate,
> but can the females be housed together? What temp is

The females can definitely be housed together.

best for them? So far


I find the best temperature for them to be around 77-78 degrees fahrenheit.

> I have not had good luck with bettas, I have killed two already. They
were


How sad, I hope these new ones do much better, generally bettas are pretty
tough.

> walmart fish, the ones I will be getting are from a breeder, so hopefully
it
> will be better. Thanks.
>
>

[Lisa]

Hi, Sarah - try this site: www.nippyfish.net

I think it is a well-written and very sensible site. The author posts
on this group sometimes, too. I currently have 3 very happy and
handsome bettas, using the information I learned from this site and
others. I have 2 males in a divided 10-gallon (each with his own
Otto), and one male in another 6-gallon mini-bow tank. The divided
males have an UGF and seem content. The other male has a Whisper HOB
filter (Hang-On-Back) and also doesn't seem to mind the current it
produces. His bubblenests are larger than the others - not sure what
that means, but all 3 seem full of pep and activity. All are kept at
79 F or so temps.

I thought the two divided fish would be happier, but all 3 seem to
thrive in their "isolation." The divided two just ignore each other,
so no biggie. They don't even flare - I think that perhaps the mesh
screen I installed is more opaque to them than I realized.

There are other informational sites that others here can recommend,
too. Basically, clean, heated water and a somewhat varied diet will be
the keys to success. I do 20-30% water changes per week. Sorry that I
don't know much about females - I've only had the males.

Cheers,

- Lisa

[NetMax]

"Sarah Navarro" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Hi all,
>
> I am going to be getting some young bettas next week. I have some
> questions. I have some small tanks ready for them with undergravel
> filters. I was told that bettas don't like water that moves, that they
> only like still water. Is that correct?

It varies by individual, though it's fair to say that because of their
finage, they are more negatively affected by turbulence. Ideally either
have quiet and more active areas, or if the tank is small, then mostly
quiet areas.

> Also, I know the males have to be seperate, but can the females be
> housed together?

Not a clear answer. I routinely kept 10 to 20 of them in a 60g tank with
absolutely no problem. Your results will vary when you go with smaller
numbers (2 or 3) and into smaller tanks. Much may depend on their
particular personality, but generally I'd say that your chances are very
good.

> What temp is best for them?

I kept them between 75 and 77F (they never complained ;~).

> So far I have not had good luck with bettas, I have killed two already.

If it makes any difference, I've had 1000s of fish die on me. Most did
not go from old age. You get better with experience.

> They were walmart fish, the ones I will be getting are from a breeder,
> so hopefully it will be better. Thanks.

I don't know if Wal-Mart could actually do much to affect their
longevity. The fish are kept in their own cups (not on a central
filtration system), and hopefully they are sold quickly, because they are
probably not fed properly (which in regards to their water conditions, is
probably not a bad thing). While the quality of the stock has some
bearing on the initial transfer mortality (ie: 3 months), the ongoing
care will more likely affect their longevity.

The most common error is overfeeding them and the resulting water
pollution slowly killing them. A simple recipe is to put each one in a 2
or 3g container with a steady temperature, some floating plants, and feed
a couple of pellets per day. From there you add treats (frozen/live
foods occasionally) and quarantined tankmates which don't stress out the
Betta. hth
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Tynk]

I red her site and like she says in the beginning, there are many myths
out there and one of them in HER information.
The topic "Flare buddies".
I've been keeping these fish for 27 years and never had ONE that
suffered *from* having a flare buddy, but have had several actually
become depressed. Enough so that they wouldn't swim around...just
stayed there listless and wouln't even eat.
Put his specific flare buddy and he was back to his old self.
They do not flare constantly. Of course they will when new to each
other, however, they do settle.
She even used this example in the body of the text.
I'm sorry, but what she is saying about being a myth is not true.
I breed these fish, and have for 19 yrs. I would never put any of my
babies in harm purposley. Flare buddies are great exercise for single
Bettas. Bettas that are kept in community tanks aren't as bored, so
it's not needed as much.
Now because each Betta has an individual personality, some may become
too stressed by a flare buddy. Usually these males are submissive and
will even show horizontal barring.
These should not have flare buddies.
I think this is the reason why some people will say that having a flare
buddy is *not* good for Bettas. It's quite possible they tried it with
a submissive and dominant a male. Then of course it wouldn't be a good
thing, but most often it *is* good for them.
Out of the thousands of Bettas I've had or raised, only 1 that I can
remember was so submissive that he couln't have a flare buddy....not
even any other kind of tank mate either. No Oto's, no Neons, nothing
because he was too wimpy.
He wasn't one that I bred, I bought him for his perfect body and fins
for a prospective breeder, but as it turned out he was so overly
submissive that I did not want to pass that down.

[Tynk]

I just wanted to make a small correction for NetMax.
Never only house 2 females together.
Because they create a hierarchy, only having two means there is either
only an "alpha" and an "Omeaga" (big boss and lowest in hierarchy).
Being so, the dominant will constantly harrass the lesser female.
Also, you could end up with 2 very dominant females and the battles
would never stop.
*Also, 75* is a bit on the chilly side, and you say you've heard no
complaints, LOL......but if you could here the complaing and moaning
you'd turn up the heat to at *least* 78* f. = )~

[Tynk]

Hi there Sarah, I'm the Betta lady. = )~

When you say "young", how young are we talking.
This will depend on their care.

The first, and very important thing to remember is that each Betta has
it's own personality, just as you, I and everyone else does.
Not all Bettas fit into one mold. There are some that will shred up
Fancy male Gups. Many that could care less about them.
There are some that are shy and submissive, and others that can be so
overly aggressive that they can't be house with anything.
I've even had a few (these were males) that attacked other types of
fish that were certain colors.
I've had one that went after anything blue. one that went after any
black coloring...and then one that would only go after a certain shade
of blue...the same as his own coloring.
So just be prepaired for a situation, be it moving a tank, or moving a
fish.
The best temp for Bettas is between 78*-80*f. No matter what you've
heard elsewhere...that's the best temp range.
Over 80* is breeding temp and it will get them all excited so don't go
higher than 80*f. I mean in the dog days of summer if your tank's water
gets to 84*...it will be fine. It's not going to hurt him, it's just
not a good thing to keep them in spawning mode constantly.
Females can be kept together, just don't keep only 2 together. The
proper hierarchy cannot be formed then and the lesser will be harrassed
constantly, or fighting will not stop, or can even get brutal between
the females.
What you need to watch for chunks of flesh being removed and scale
loss, or large chunks of fin missing, and constant battling between two
specific females. That might mean one of them has to go elsewhere, as
both are dominant and refuse to submit to a lesser spot in the
hierarchy.
Now when you put females together for the first time there *will* be
fighting, posturing (aka flaring and flashing of fins), nipping fins,
but it won't get downright vicious where scales are missing, chunks of
flesh bitten, etc.
Oh...and yes..females flare as well. They simply have smaller "beards"
(the flappy part that hangs down behind the gills, and can be easily
seen on males).
Also, after a hierarchy is formed you will in time notice who is the
alpha, all the way down to the omega (lowest in hierarchy).
Now when this is formed and set, and you add a new female/s tot he
mix...it must be created all over again, so beware that this must
happen.
It's not mean of them, it's just how their society is run.
People often think Bettas are *not* socialble creatures, but they are.
It's just that the males cannot be housed together, but many do
appreciate proper tank mates.
If you are just starting out, I would advise not housing a male in with
your females.
This can be done, and I've done it many, many times. However, you
really need to know what you're doing with Bettas and be able to read
their body language like you know your own language.
It will also depend on individual personalities, so bare that in mind
too.
Because it needs to be done by people that are very experienced with
Betta's and their care, is probably the reason why you read or hear so
many people say they cannot be housed together.
They sure can, as long as it's done properly (a huge factor) and each
persoanlity of each fish allows for it.
You mentioned that you've had two Bettas and have not had good luck
with them.
I suggest maybe not shopping for them at WalMart for them.
If you can, find a reputable local shop (not a "Co: or a "Mart"store,
but a locally owned shop). Many times they have better stock, but not
always. It takes some looking around for good Betta stock these days.
(over breeding and inbreeding by mass producers).

[IDzine01]

I have to stick to my guns on this one. I don't support the use of
"flare buddies" in a forced or continuous manner. It is unnatural for
territorial fish to be made to face off with an aggressor all day and
night. In nature, they come across each other from time to time and
reproducing these occasional occurrences may serve as an enrichment
exorcise between healthy fish. That's where my support ends.

Making this system work is so easy. Just provide a way for the bettas
to opt out of viewing their neighbor. (heavy planting/ external divider
with cut out view windows) This way they can flare when they want or
hide when stressed. When they are sick, other males should be removed
from view altogether. I just don't see why forcing them to flare at
each other is helpful. It's contradictory to everything that bettas
are. They're Siamese Fighting Fish not Siamese Friendship Fish.

Christie (nippyfish)
http://www.nippyfish.net/flarebuddies.html

[Tynk]

<<I have to stick to my guns on this one. I don't support the use of
"flare buddies" in a forced or continuous manner. It is unnatural for
territorial fish to be made to face off with an aggressor all day and
night. In nature, they come across each other from time to time and
reproducing these occasional occurrences may serve as an enrichment
exorcise between healthy fish. That's where my support ends. >>

In the wild they're not always so far apart. It depends on the nature
of the habitat they are in.
I have to assume here that you've not done this so you wouldn't
understand how they behave when kept next to each other permanantly.
Sure they huff and puff at first quite a bit. However, they quickly
become bored with one another. They will then flare when *they* feel
like it.
I have some that won't even bother flaring anymore and I have to change
them around. It's good exercise for them.
They don't constantly flare at one another.
Is this the impression you were under?
I not arguing with you, I'm trying to understand why you have come to
the conclusion that it's not a good thing.
The territorial thing has few grey areas in it when it comes to Bettas.

[Tynk]

*Sorry, I hit post before I should have.

I also have to say that I don't ever house single male Bettas in
anything less than a gallon, and they have plants or other decor.
It's not like I keep them in bare, tiny jars and they have no place to
go.
You also mention the word "force" them to flare.
They are not forced to flare. They quit anytime they want.
Now if you constantly "card" the males, of course they are going to go
at like nuts at first. That's because they're *not* used to seeing
other males. This is great for the show ring.
I mean, that's the main reason people in the show rings, or even in the
fighting rings..yes there are countries where this is still being done,
card their fish. Because if they didn't, they would *Stop* flaring at
one another.

[NetMax]

"Tynk" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>I just wanted to make a small correction for NetMax.
> Never only house 2 females together.
> Because they create a hierarchy, only having two means there is either
> only an "alpha" and an "Omeaga" (big boss and lowest in hierarchy).
> Being so, the dominant will constantly harrass the lesser female.
> Also, you could end up with 2 very dominant females and the battles
> would never stop.
> *Also, 75* is a bit on the chilly side, and you say you've heard no
> complaints, LOL......but if you could here the complaing and moaning
> you'd turn up the heat to at *least* 78* f. = )~


Thanks for the good advice Tynk. I guess I never encountered the problem
with a 60g. If I only had two females, they would get lost in there (it
was also a planted tank) and all that water must have drowned out their
complaints ;~).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[IDzine01]

< I not arguing with you, I'm trying to understand why you have come to
<the conclusion that it's not a good thing.

I had done the flare buddy thing when I first started out. I had kept a
couple bettas in 2 gallon tanks next to each other. It was recommended
to me to limit it to about 15 minutes a day. When one of my bettas
became listless (due to some illness that I can't recall) I had
mentioned on a betta board that I was trying to perk him up by showing
him his reflection. At that time a couple of posters explained to me
how putting a sick betta into a defensive situation could cause
additional stress. Once it was explained to me it seemed to make
perfect sense. Ever since then I stopped keeping my bettas in plain
view of each other and limited their "flare buddy" time to a few
minutes a day. I never make sick fish defend themselves either.
Basically, that's how I came about my opinion. I had mentioned it to
other hobbyists and they explained their stance. In the end, I changed
my practice.

I respect your opinion Tynk and I know you take good care of your fish,
but I think our difference of opinion might come down to how we view
betta psyche. I personally don't believe that male bettas enjoy the
company of other male bettas. I believe they are hard wired to be
aggressive and confrontational toward other males for the purpose of
protecting the young.

[Tynk]

Ok, now I can better understand why you feel this way. = )
When it coes to the care of sick or even the very old, I would never
have them next to another healthy male.
You are 100%, too much stress.
However, care for the sick or elderly fish is an entirely different
situation. The conditions they need are different.
However, healthy fish have no problem being kept next to one another
and able to flare when they want.
I truly believe they have different "modes" of aggression, and for
different reasons.
I believe this because I am crazy about animal behavior and body
language. I guess youcould say I'm a little obcessed with it.
Any critter I know anything about....you bet I know their body
language. It's so cool to be able to look at an Angelfish and know why
it's flashing at a tank mate...is it breeding jousting, is it
territorial, is it aggression, etc. Same with Bettas.
Bettas, when stressed too much or get too scared, or are frankly just
submissive will have entirely different body language.
many will even show horizontal barring when stressed.
When I set up a new male (after quarantine of course), next to another
male, I stay and watch. Sometimes I won't leave for half an hour...just
to see how the new guy reacts....and how the resident male/s act as
well.
Sometimes you have to change the mix up. Some males just know that the
other is more dominant and can show stress....so off he goes to another
spot in my house, or a different tank.
I had this one old guy that outlived his body.
I had him with me a couple of years, but he was fully mature when I
bought him. I didn't buy him for breeding so it didn't matter his
age...he just wanted to come with me. = )
I estimated his age to be 4 yr or just under. By that time he was
nothing but scales draped over his little boney body. His fins became
short, but you'd never know he was so frail.
This was one of the several males I have had over the yrs that became
quite depressed when his regular flare buddy was moved.
He stopped eating, stopped swimming around, just laid there listless.
He used to do the wiggle dance everytime I came into the room at
me..for 2 yr straight he never missed a dance with me = )/ That until I
would remove his flare buddy. He even stopped dancing for me. This was
pure depression. I had at first thought Ok, he's going to pass on,
typical old age symptoms, but it wasn't. I decided to swith tanks
around again and put his old buddy back. (there was a different male
next to him the entire time his original buddy had been changed and he
did not flare or even give him any notice what so ever). After his old
buddy was back I saw him change right away.
he was back to his old self. Flaring when he wanted for a minute or so,
and then back to dancing for me or begging for food.
Quite a difference.
Maybe it's just one of those that you have to experience or see for
yourself.

[Daniel Morrow]

"Sarah Navarro" > wrote in message
link.net...
> Ok, I have had the little beauties for about a week now. They are so
> pretty. These ones seem to be quite active, healthy and eat good. I
> appreciate all the help you guys gave me. I have another question though.
> I have one in a 2 1/2 gallon fish bowl. The water is only two days old,
and
> there is some sort of foamy, bubble stuff at the top. I did add some
> melafix, because his fins were a little torn from a fight with one of the
> females ( he is now alone in the bowl). I don't think the melafix is
> causing the foam though. What else would it be. Actually the fish seems
to
> like the foam because he hangs around it all day. Should I change the
water
> daily? What could be causing these bubbles? While I am not so new to
fish,
> I am new to bettas. Thanks.
>
>
> "Sarah Navarro" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I am going to be getting some young bettas next week. I have some
> > questions. I have some small tanks ready for them with undergravel
> > filters. I was told that bettas don't like water that moves, that they
> > only like still water. Is that correct? Also, I know the males have to
> > be seperate, but can the females be housed together? What temp is best
> > for them? So far I have not had good luck with bettas, I have killed
two
> > already. They were walmart fish, the ones I will be getting are from a
> > breeder, so hopefully it will be better. Thanks.
> >
>

The bubbles are probably his bubble nest. When bettas breed the male makes a
bubble nest for the fry (babies) and keeps them in it until they become free
swimming. I'll exaggerate if this is not the case and say that human kind's
pollution is catching up with everyone and that explains the unknown
deaths/occurrences in this hobby recently. In other words don't worry about
it and let him have his bubble nest. Good luck, and later!

[Sarah Navarro]

Ok, I have had the little beauties for about a week now. They are so
pretty. These ones seem to be quite active, healthy and eat good. I
appreciate all the help you guys gave me. I have another question though.
I have one in a 2 1/2 gallon fish bowl. The water is only two days old, and
there is some sort of foamy, bubble stuff at the top. I did add some
melafix, because his fins were a little torn from a fight with one of the
females ( he is now alone in the bowl). I don't think the melafix is
causing the foam though. What else would it be. Actually the fish seems to
like the foam because he hangs around it all day. Should I change the water
daily? What could be causing these bubbles? While I am not so new to fish,
I am new to bettas. Thanks.


"Sarah Navarro" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Hi all,
>
> I am going to be getting some young bettas next week. I have some
> questions. I have some small tanks ready for them with undergravel
> filters. I was told that bettas don't like water that moves, that they
> only like still water. Is that correct? Also, I know the males have to
> be seperate, but can the females be housed together? What temp is best
> for them? So far I have not had good luck with bettas, I have killed two
> already. They were walmart fish, the ones I will be getting are from a
> breeder, so hopefully it will be better. Thanks.
>

[Sarah Navarro]

Ok, maybe it is a bubble nest. If it is, is he going to get upset every
week when I dump all his water out to change it? As he has no filter, it
must be changed weekly. Will he just make another one every week? Thanks.

>
> The bubbles are probably his bubble nest. When bettas breed the male makes
> a
> bubble nest for the fry (babies) and keeps them in it until they become
> free
> swimming. I'll exaggerate if this is not the case and say that human
> kind's
> pollution is catching up with everyone and that explains the unknown
> deaths/occurrences in this hobby recently. In other words don't worry
> about
> it and let him have his bubble nest. Good luck, and later!
>
>

[Elaine T]

Sarah Navarro wrote:
> Ok, I have had the little beauties for about a week now. They are so
> pretty. These ones seem to be quite active, healthy and eat good. I
> appreciate all the help you guys gave me. I have another question though.
> I have one in a 2 1/2 gallon fish bowl. The water is only two days old, and
> there is some sort of foamy, bubble stuff at the top. I did add some
> melafix, because his fins were a little torn from a fight with one of the
> females ( he is now alone in the bowl). I don't think the melafix is
> causing the foam though. What else would it be. Actually the fish seems to
> like the foam because he hangs around it all day. Should I change the water
> daily? What could be causing these bubbles? While I am not so new to fish,
> I am new to bettas. Thanks.
>
>
> "Sarah Navarro" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
>
>>Hi all,
>>
>>I am going to be getting some young bettas next week. I have some
>>questions. I have some small tanks ready for them with undergravel
>>filters. I was told that bettas don't like water that moves, that they
>>only like still water. Is that correct? Also, I know the males have to
>>be seperate, but can the females be housed together? What temp is best
>>for them? So far I have not had good luck with bettas, I have killed two
>>already. They were walmart fish, the ones I will be getting are from a
>>breeder, so hopefully it will be better. Thanks.
>>
>
>
>
A neat, thick clump of small, uniformly sized bubbles that your fish
carefully maintains is a bubble nest. Soapy foam with all sized bubbles
is from the Melafix.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[winddancir]

I know what you mean about depressed bettas. I keep 4 of mine in a square, 2 girls, 2 boys. One, my red/blue/white CT (Prince Charlie), gets droopy if I don't keep anyone near him. And if the other male(HM Blaze) is near, he spends an hour or so flaring, and then ignores him to flirt with a girl. Or he'll watch for me at the door. My adults don't seem to mind having non-enemies next door.
I also just brought home a white CT. I was going to put him in a heated tank, and put him in a 1gal temp container. The lps where I rescued him from had their bettas in tiny containers. Microscopic little jars. 3 inch (if that) diameter round ball shaped vase thingys.

ARRRRGGGHHH!!!!!!

Sorry. They barely had any room to turn around. No room to flare if they wanted to. I'm suprised that the floor wasn't covered with suicidal bettas. But from what I can tell, my new CT Ice isn't having any problems and is happy. Bubbles galore! Body language says, "Hi! you looking at me? well, I'm looking at you! See my tail? Isn't it nice? Oh, I think I need more bubbles!" But his container is right up against another larger tank that is heated, so the temp is semi controlled. I would say is stays between 72 (at night low) to about 78.

[NetMax]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
...
> Sarah Navarro wrote:
>> Ok, I have had the little beauties for about a week now. They are so
>> pretty. These ones seem to be quite active, healthy and eat good. I
>> appreciate all the help you guys gave me. I have another question
>> though. I have one in a 2 1/2 gallon fish bowl. The water is only two
>> days old, and there is some sort of foamy, bubble stuff at the top. I
>> did add some melafix, because his fins were a little torn from a fight
>> with one of the females ( he is now alone in the bowl). I don't think
>> the melafix is causing the foam though. What else would it be.
>> Actually the fish seems to like the foam because he hangs around it
>> all day. Should I change the water daily? What could be causing
>> these bubbles? While I am not so new to fish, I am new to bettas.
>> Thanks.
>>
>>
>> "Sarah Navarro" > wrote in message
>> ink.net...
>>
>>>Hi all,
>>>
>>>I am going to be getting some young bettas next week. I have some
>>>questions. I have some small tanks ready for them with undergravel
>>>filters. I was told that bettas don't like water that moves, that they
>>>only like still water. Is that correct? Also, I know the males have
>>>to be seperate, but can the females be housed together? What temp is
>>>best for them? So far I have not had good luck with bettas, I have
>>>killed two already. They were walmart fish, the ones I will be
>>>getting are from a breeder, so hopefully it will be better. Thanks.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
> A neat, thick clump of small, uniformly sized bubbles that your fish
> carefully maintains is a bubble nest. Soapy foam with all sized
> bubbles is from the Melafix.
>
> --
> Elaine T __
> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

I once added Melafix to an indoor pond with a running waterfall. Bad
idea. Looked like a bubble bath. Next time I'll remember to turn off
the waterfall for a day.
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www.NetMax.tk