Losing fish...any ideas appreciated [Archive]

Elaine T

May 29th 05, 07:15 PM

Gill Passman wrote:
> "Billy" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>
>>"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
>>
>>>They are absolutely fine until it happens. Swimming around happily
>>>and
>>>feeding well - last night everyone was absolutely normal. No sign
>>>of any
>>>bloating or distress or any marks on them at all. Then I just find
>>>them at
>>>the bottom of the tank hardly moving and then they die. Gill
>>>movement is
>>>normal and as I said there is no sign of any fungal infection or
>>>injury....
>>>
>>
>>
>>Any foreign materials in tank? Recent addition of decorations?
>>
>>
>
> Nothing added since the Barbs in Jan/Feb....also nothing taken out (apart
> from the dead fish). No new decorations or even plants. Very small ammonia
> spike (lowest reading) about 9 days ago along with a slightly higher pH
> reading (which I'm not convinced I read properly). Rectified all of this and
> have not had any suspect readings since a week ago last saturday but lost
> another Mollie shortly after. No difference in how I treat the water -
> follow the same routine on all of the tanks and there is no problem in any
> of the others.
>
> The only thing that I have done differently, a couple of weeks ago, was to
> use a magnetic algae scraper. Haven't used it again as the fish kept trying
> to get between it and the glass so I decided it was too risky to use it in
> the tank.
>
> It it is not disease or agression, I can only think that there is something
> toxic in the water that I don't test for. But if that is the case I would
> have expected them all to be carried off at once or at least within a few
> days but this has not happened.
>
>
>
>
>
> Test Kit is the same one I use on all the tanks and know to be accurate.
>
>
>
Usually, bacterial disease overwhelm fish quickly as you're seeing.
Parasites take longer. I would start feeding an antibacterial food, if
you can find one. You also might remove your biofilter media, treat the
tank with 2 ppm potassium permanganate for four hours (there should be
instructions on the bottle for amount), add dechlorinator - the
permanganate should change from pink/purple to brown, and then put the
filter media back. This will reduce both bacterial and parasitic
populations in the tank.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

Steve

May 29th 05, 07:22 PM

Gill Passman wrote:

> Nothing added since the Barbs in Jan/Feb....also nothing taken out (apart
> from the dead fish). No new decorations or even plants. Very small ammonia
> spike (lowest reading) about 9 days ago along with a slightly higher pH
> reading (which I'm not convinced I read properly). Rectified all of this and
> have not had any suspect readings since a week ago last saturday but lost
> another Mollie shortly after. No difference in how I treat the water -
> follow the same routine on all of the tanks and there is no problem in any
> of the others.
>
> The only thing that I have done differently, a couple of weeks ago, was to
> use a magnetic algae scraper. Haven't used it again as the fish kept trying
> to get between it and the glass so I decided it was too risky to use it in
> the tank.
>
> It it is not disease or agression, I can only think that there is something
> toxic in the water that I don't test for. But if that is the case I would
> have expected them all to be carried off at once or at least within a few
> days but this has not happened.

Here in Canada tanks may get quite warm at this time of year, from the
spring-summer temperature plus the heat of the lights, filter pump etc.
If that's the case you can open the tank lid a bit to let air flow and
cool things down; unplugging the heater can help, too.

When the water quality is suspected as in this case, I think it's ok to
do daily water changes of 30% - 50% for a few days. That will
effectively change most of the water in the tank.

Steve

Gill Passman

May 29th 05, 07:25 PM

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
m...
> Gill Passman wrote:
> > "Billy" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>
> >>"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
> .. .
> >>
> >>>They are absolutely fine until it happens. Swimming around happily
> >>>and
> >>>feeding well - last night everyone was absolutely normal. No sign
> >>>of any
> >>>bloating or distress or any marks on them at all. Then I just find
> >>>them at
> >>>the bottom of the tank hardly moving and then they die. Gill
> >>>movement is
> >>>normal and as I said there is no sign of any fungal infection or
> >>>injury....
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>Any foreign materials in tank? Recent addition of decorations?
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Nothing added since the Barbs in Jan/Feb....also nothing taken out
(apart
> > from the dead fish). No new decorations or even plants. Very small
ammonia
> > spike (lowest reading) about 9 days ago along with a slightly higher pH
> > reading (which I'm not convinced I read properly). Rectified all of this
and
> > have not had any suspect readings since a week ago last saturday but
lost
> > another Mollie shortly after. No difference in how I treat the water -
> > follow the same routine on all of the tanks and there is no problem in
any
> > of the others.
> >
> > The only thing that I have done differently, a couple of weeks ago, was
to
> > use a magnetic algae scraper. Haven't used it again as the fish kept
trying
> > to get between it and the glass so I decided it was too risky to use it
in
> > the tank.
> >
> > It it is not disease or agression, I can only think that there is
something
> > toxic in the water that I don't test for. But if that is the case I
would
> > have expected them all to be carried off at once or at least within a
few
> > days but this has not happened.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Test Kit is the same one I use on all the tanks and know to be accurate.
> >
> >
> >
> Usually, bacterial disease overwhelm fish quickly as you're seeing.
> Parasites take longer. I would start feeding an antibacterial food, if
> you can find one. You also might remove your biofilter media, treat the
> tank with 2 ppm potassium permanganate for four hours (there should be
> instructions on the bottle for amount), add dechlorinator - the
> permanganate should change from pink/purple to brown, and then put the
> filter media back. This will reduce both bacterial and parasitic
> populations in the tank.
>
> --
> Elaine T __
> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com
Hi Elaine,

If it is bacterial I'm not quite sure how it got in there but it's worth a
shot. I'm not sure that we can get antibacterial food in the UK (I remember
someone posting this - Nikki I think) but I'll take a look.

With the Potassium Permanganate - do I do this with the fish in the tank or
do I move them for the four hours? I guess I could bag them and put them in
one of the other tanks to keep the temp up - not too much of a problem
though this time of year....Plus if the filter is out of the tank for the
four hours is there going to be a risk of a "mini cycle" when I put it
back....I'm relucant to hang it one of the other tanks because of not
knowing the problem...I guess I could put it in a bucket of tank water.

Thanks
Gill

Gill Passman

May 29th 05, 09:39 PM

"Steve" > wrote in message
.. .
> Gill Passman wrote:
>
> > Nothing added since the Barbs in Jan/Feb....also nothing taken out
(apart
> > from the dead fish). No new decorations or even plants. Very small
ammonia
> > spike (lowest reading) about 9 days ago along with a slightly higher pH
> > reading (which I'm not convinced I read properly). Rectified all of this
and
> > have not had any suspect readings since a week ago last saturday but
lost
> > another Mollie shortly after. No difference in how I treat the water -
> > follow the same routine on all of the tanks and there is no problem in
any
> > of the others.
> >
> > The only thing that I have done differently, a couple of weeks ago, was
to
> > use a magnetic algae scraper. Haven't used it again as the fish kept
trying
> > to get between it and the glass so I decided it was too risky to use it
in
> > the tank.
> >
> > It it is not disease or agression, I can only think that there is
something
> > toxic in the water that I don't test for. But if that is the case I
would
> > have expected them all to be carried off at once or at least within a
few
> > days but this has not happened.
>
> Here in Canada tanks may get quite warm at this time of year, from the
> spring-summer temperature plus the heat of the lights, filter pump etc.
> If that's the case you can open the tank lid a bit to let air flow and
> cool things down; unplugging the heater can help, too.
>
> When the water quality is suspected as in this case, I think it's ok to
> do daily water changes of 30% - 50% for a few days. That will
> effectively change most of the water in the tank.
>
> Steve
>
It's one of the coolest rooms in the house. We only had one major temp shift
so far which was Friday....which could explain the Barb but not the
mollies....

I will keep up the water changes but I'm not entirely convinced

Thanks Steve
Gill

Gill Passman

May 29th 05, 09:40 PM

"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
> Hi All,
> This is really a continuation from the Sick Mollie in my son's tank and
> subsequent loss of two Mollies last weekend. I did my normal check this
> morning and now one of the Rosy Barbs is on her way out. Checked the water
> pH 8 (normal for our tanks), 0 Ammonia and Nitrites and Nitrates are at 5.
>
> No new fish added for months. Tank has been running since last August.
>
> Tank is around 15UK galls. Current occupants are 1 mollie and 4 Rosy Barbs
> (around 10 inches of fish maximum). Plenty of plants. Water changes are
> weekly 20-30%. We've had very few problems with this tank until now.
>
> I just can't figure out what is going on here or what to do next. If the
> remaining Rosy Barbs would be OK with Gouramis I suppose I could move them
> and then strip down the tank - this is the only thing I can think of for
> now. But I hesitate because I don't want to risk infecting any of the
other
> fish in the other tanks.
>
> Does anyone have any clues as to what might be happening or what I can do
> next to keep the remaining fish?
>
> Thanks
> Gill
>
>
>
Could the symptoms I'm describing be caused by over-feeding? I am starting
to see a common pattern but don't want to throw any stones unless I'm
sure.....

Derek Benson

May 29th 05, 10:50 PM

On Sun, 29 May 2005 12:23:31 +0100, "Gill Passman"
<gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote:

>Hi All,
>This is really a continuation from the Sick Mollie in my son's tank and
>subsequent loss of two Mollies last weekend. I did my normal check this
>morning and now one of the Rosy Barbs is on her way out. Checked the water
>pH 8 (normal for our tanks), 0 Ammonia and Nitrites and Nitrates are at 5.
>
>No new fish added for months. Tank has been running since last August.
>
>Tank is around 15UK galls. Current occupants are 1 mollie and 4 Rosy Barbs
>(around 10 inches of fish maximum). Plenty of plants. Water changes are
>weekly 20-30%. We've had very few problems with this tank until now.
>
>I just can't figure out what is going on here or what to do next. If the
>remaining Rosy Barbs would be OK with Gouramis I suppose I could move them
>and then strip down the tank - this is the only thing I can think of for
>now. But I hesitate because I don't want to risk infecting any of the other
>fish in the other tanks.
>
>Does anyone have any clues as to what might be happening or what I can do
>next to keep the remaining fish?
>
>Thanks
>Gill
>
>
If I try to rule out causes of death based on your info and the info
you've given to others: It doesn't appear to be a common parasite like
Ich, or velvet because you see these on the fish. Internal parasites,
worms or flagellates or whatever will usually show symptoms of the
fish getting thinner, wasting away, the feces might be weird, white
and stringy or no feces at all from the fish. So I rule out all of
these.

I rule out poisoning be it from ammonia or nitrate or metals or
something weird gotten into the tank because the fish should show
signs of poisoning: breathing faster, panting at the surface or at the
bottom of the tank.

So what's left? I think your pH is a bit high, but if others want to
say that it's fine for these fish I'll take their word for it. I don't
pay much attention to pH anymore because where I live it's 7.0 out of
the tap.

If it's bacterial in nature as Elaine suggests, the way it works, as I
understand it, is more or less like this. These bacteria which can
cause illness, Aeromonas or Mycobacterium or whatever their names are,
will always be present in your tank just like the bacteria you want in
the tank, the species which break down the ammonia and nitrites. These
evil bacteria will grow in numbers if the tank is generally not clean
enough. Keep these numbers down by vacuuming gravel and changing water
more frequently and diluting out the little buggers. The gravel in
this tank is vacuumed all the way to the bottom glass of the tank? I
ask because I think these bacteria live and multiply down there where
there is less oxygen in the water surrounding the gravel.

If this is a bacteria problem, I don't think these fish in the tank
will infect fish in other tanks. The bacteria in question are already
in the other tanks in certain numbers anyway. I think what I would do
is move all the fish in with the gouramis, and tear down this tank
completely and start it over. If you decide to do this, after you
remove fish and plants pour in some chlorine bleach and stir up the
gravel and wash it out the following day. Everything will be
killed/disinfected by the bleach.

-Derek

Gill Passman

May 29th 05, 11:27 PM

"Derek Benson" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 29 May 2005 12:23:31 +0100, "Gill Passman"
> <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >Hi All,
> >This is really a continuation from the Sick Mollie in my son's tank and
> >subsequent loss of two Mollies last weekend. I did my normal check this
> >morning and now one of the Rosy Barbs is on her way out. Checked the
water
> >pH 8 (normal for our tanks), 0 Ammonia and Nitrites and Nitrates are at
5.
> >
> >No new fish added for months. Tank has been running since last August.
> >
> >Tank is around 15UK galls. Current occupants are 1 mollie and 4 Rosy
Barbs
> >(around 10 inches of fish maximum). Plenty of plants. Water changes are
> >weekly 20-30%. We've had very few problems with this tank until now.
> >
> >I just can't figure out what is going on here or what to do next. If the
> >remaining Rosy Barbs would be OK with Gouramis I suppose I could move
them
> >and then strip down the tank - this is the only thing I can think of for
> >now. But I hesitate because I don't want to risk infecting any of the
other
> >fish in the other tanks.
> >
> >Does anyone have any clues as to what might be happening or what I can do
> >next to keep the remaining fish?
> >
> >Thanks
> >Gill
> >
> >
> If I try to rule out causes of death based on your info and the info
> you've given to others: It doesn't appear to be a common parasite like
> Ich, or velvet because you see these on the fish. Internal parasites,
> worms or flagellates or whatever will usually show symptoms of the
> fish getting thinner, wasting away, the feces might be weird, white
> and stringy or no feces at all from the fish. So I rule out all of
> these.
>
> I rule out poisoning be it from ammonia or nitrate or metals or
> something weird gotten into the tank because the fish should show
> signs of poisoning: breathing faster, panting at the surface or at the
> bottom of the tank.
>
> So what's left? I think your pH is a bit high, but if others want to
> say that it's fine for these fish I'll take their word for it. I don't
> pay much attention to pH anymore because where I live it's 7.0 out of
> the tap.
>
> If it's bacterial in nature as Elaine suggests, the way it works, as I
> understand it, is more or less like this. These bacteria which can
> cause illness, Aeromonas or Mycobacterium or whatever their names are,
> will always be present in your tank just like the bacteria you want in
> the tank, the species which break down the ammonia and nitrites. These
> evil bacteria will grow in numbers if the tank is generally not clean
> enough. Keep these numbers down by vacuuming gravel and changing water
> more frequently and diluting out the little buggers. The gravel in
> this tank is vacuumed all the way to the bottom glass of the tank? I
> ask because I think these bacteria live and multiply down there where
> there is less oxygen in the water surrounding the gravel.
>
> If this is a bacteria problem, I don't think these fish in the tank
> will infect fish in other tanks. The bacteria in question are already
> in the other tanks in certain numbers anyway. I think what I would do
> is move all the fish in with the gouramis, and tear down this tank
> completely and start it over. If you decide to do this, after you
> remove fish and plants pour in some chlorine bleach and stir up the
> gravel and wash it out the following day. Everything will be
> killed/disinfected by the bleach.
>
> -Derek

What you are saying is making total sense....apart from a slight question
mark over a certain nephew deciding to over feed...I cannot think of
anything else (he was here a few days before the Mollie decline and again a
couple of days ago). The gravel in this tank is not what I have in the
others - it is more a pea gravel rather than the finer stuff I normally have
so harder to vaccum....maybe there is something trapped in there - like
Hydrogen Sulphide.....

My son comes back tomorrow from his Dad's....he is already disallusioned and
thinking of giving up fish keeping based on the recent deaths....I hope I
can keep him hanging in there....he truly did love it....

Gill

Mean_Chlorine

May 29th 05, 11:40 PM

Thusly "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> Spake Unto
All:

>> What are the symptoms of the fish?
>
>They are absolutely fine until it happens. Swimming around happily and
>feeding well - last night everyone was absolutely normal. No sign of any
>bloating or distress or any marks on them at all. Then I just find them at
>the bottom of the tank hardly moving and then they die.

They always die during the night?

Gill Passman

May 29th 05, 11:46 PM

"Mean_Chlorine" > wrote in message
...
> Thusly "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> Spake Unto
> All:
>
> >> What are the symptoms of the fish?
> >
> >They are absolutely fine until it happens. Swimming around happily and
> >feeding well - last night everyone was absolutely normal. No sign of any
> >bloating or distress or any marks on them at all. Then I just find them
at
> >the bottom of the tank hardly moving and then they die.
>
> They always die during the night?
>

They always get ill during the night....they die later either in the next
day or the following day/night

Mean_Chlorine

May 30th 05, 12:41 AM

Thusly "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> Spake Unto
All:

>> They always die during the night?
>
>They always get ill during the night....they die later either in the next
>day or the following day/night

OK, that narrows it down a bit.

Two obvious alternatives are oxygen depletion and attacks by other
animals, e.g. some catfish, some crayfish... I had otocinclus which
attacked and killed fish during the night some while back, for
instance, and oxygen levels drop during the night.

However, you've listed your fish, and you've not got any fish which
should be capable of attacking other fish, and fish recover quickly
from oxygen shortage.

The main remaining possibility I can think of is flexibacter disease.
It is extremely virulent, and may kill fish so quickly that they never
develop any symptoms. The most resistant fish will, however,
eventually develop symptoms: white fungus-like growths, and ulcers on
their bodies, often around the mouth.

But until you see any symptoms, flexibacter disease is just a wild
guess based on the absence of evidence.

Elaine T

May 30th 05, 07:44 AM

Gill Passman wrote:
> "Elaine T" > wrote in message
> m...
>
>>Gill Passman wrote:
>>
>>>"Billy" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>
>>>>"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>They are absolutely fine until it happens. Swimming around happily
>>>>>and
>>>>>feeding well - last night everyone was absolutely normal. No sign
>>>>>of any
>>>>>bloating or distress or any marks on them at all. Then I just find
>>>>>them at
>>>>>the bottom of the tank hardly moving and then they die. Gill
>>>>>movement is
>>>>>normal and as I said there is no sign of any fungal infection or
>>>>>injury....
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Any foreign materials in tank? Recent addition of decorations?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>Nothing added since the Barbs in Jan/Feb....also nothing taken out
>
> (apart
>
>>>from the dead fish). No new decorations or even plants. Very small
>
> ammonia
>
>>>spike (lowest reading) about 9 days ago along with a slightly higher pH
>>>reading (which I'm not convinced I read properly). Rectified all of this
>
> and
>
>>>have not had any suspect readings since a week ago last saturday but
>
> lost
>
>>>another Mollie shortly after. No difference in how I treat the water -
>>>follow the same routine on all of the tanks and there is no problem in
>
> any
>
>>>of the others.
>>>
>>>The only thing that I have done differently, a couple of weeks ago, was
>
> to
>
>>>use a magnetic algae scraper. Haven't used it again as the fish kept
>
> trying
>
>>>to get between it and the glass so I decided it was too risky to use it
>
> in
>
>>>the tank.
>>>
>>>It it is not disease or agression, I can only think that there is
>
> something
>
>>>toxic in the water that I don't test for. But if that is the case I
>
> would
>
>>>have expected them all to be carried off at once or at least within a
>
> few
>
>>>days but this has not happened.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Test Kit is the same one I use on all the tanks and know to be accurate.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Usually, bacterial disease overwhelm fish quickly as you're seeing.
>>Parasites take longer. I would start feeding an antibacterial food, if
>>you can find one. You also might remove your biofilter media, treat the
>>tank with 2 ppm potassium permanganate for four hours (there should be
>>instructions on the bottle for amount), add dechlorinator - the
>>permanganate should change from pink/purple to brown, and then put the
>>filter media back. This will reduce both bacterial and parasitic
>>populations in the tank.
>>
>>--
>>Elaine T __
>>http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
>>rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com
>
> Hi Elaine,
>
> If it is bacterial I'm not quite sure how it got in there but it's worth a
> shot. I'm not sure that we can get antibacterial food in the UK (I remember
> someone posting this - Nikki I think) but I'll take a look.
>
> With the Potassium Permanganate - do I do this with the fish in the tank or
> do I move them for the four hours? I guess I could bag them and put them in
> one of the other tanks to keep the temp up - not too much of a problem
> though this time of year....Plus if the filter is out of the tank for the
> four hours is there going to be a risk of a "mini cycle" when I put it
> back....I'm relucant to hang it one of the other tanks because of not
> knowing the problem...I guess I could put it in a bucket of tank water.
>
> Thanks
> Gill
>
>
Leave fish in the tank. Four hours shouldn't kill your filter.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

Dick

May 30th 05, 10:27 AM

On Sun, 29 May 2005 23:27:16 +0100, "Gill Passman"
<gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote:

>
>"Derek Benson" > wrote in message
...
>> On Sun, 29 May 2005 12:23:31 +0100, "Gill Passman"
>> <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> >Hi All,
>> >This is really a continuation from the Sick Mollie in my son's tank and
>> >subsequent loss of two Mollies last weekend. I did my normal check this
>> >morning and now one of the Rosy Barbs is on her way out. Checked the
>water
>> >pH 8 (normal for our tanks), 0 Ammonia and Nitrites and Nitrates are at
>5.
>> >
>> >No new fish added for months. Tank has been running since last August.
>> >
>> >Tank is around 15UK galls. Current occupants are 1 mollie and 4 Rosy
>Barbs
>> >(around 10 inches of fish maximum). Plenty of plants. Water changes are
>> >weekly 20-30%. We've had very few problems with this tank until now.
>> >
>> >I just can't figure out what is going on here or what to do next. If the
>> >remaining Rosy Barbs would be OK with Gouramis I suppose I could move
>them
>> >and then strip down the tank - this is the only thing I can think of for
>> >now. But I hesitate because I don't want to risk infecting any of the
>other
>> >fish in the other tanks.
>> >
>> >Does anyone have any clues as to what might be happening or what I can do
>> >next to keep the remaining fish?
>> >
>> >Thanks
>> >Gill
>> >
>> >
>> If I try to rule out causes of death based on your info and the info
>> you've given to others: It doesn't appear to be a common parasite like
>> Ich, or velvet because you see these on the fish. Internal parasites,
>> worms or flagellates or whatever will usually show symptoms of the
>> fish getting thinner, wasting away, the feces might be weird, white
>> and stringy or no feces at all from the fish. So I rule out all of
>> these.
>>
>> I rule out poisoning be it from ammonia or nitrate or metals or
>> something weird gotten into the tank because the fish should show
>> signs of poisoning: breathing faster, panting at the surface or at the
>> bottom of the tank.
>>
>> So what's left? I think your pH is a bit high, but if others want to
>> say that it's fine for these fish I'll take their word for it. I don't
>> pay much attention to pH anymore because where I live it's 7.0 out of
>> the tap.
>>
>> If it's bacterial in nature as Elaine suggests, the way it works, as I
>> understand it, is more or less like this. These bacteria which can
>> cause illness, Aeromonas or Mycobacterium or whatever their names are,
>> will always be present in your tank just like the bacteria you want in
>> the tank, the species which break down the ammonia and nitrites. These
>> evil bacteria will grow in numbers if the tank is generally not clean
>> enough. Keep these numbers down by vacuuming gravel and changing water
>> more frequently and diluting out the little buggers. The gravel in
>> this tank is vacuumed all the way to the bottom glass of the tank? I
>> ask because I think these bacteria live and multiply down there where
>> there is less oxygen in the water surrounding the gravel.
>>
>> If this is a bacteria problem, I don't think these fish in the tank
>> will infect fish in other tanks. The bacteria in question are already
>> in the other tanks in certain numbers anyway. I think what I would do
>> is move all the fish in with the gouramis, and tear down this tank
>> completely and start it over. If you decide to do this, after you
>> remove fish and plants pour in some chlorine bleach and stir up the
>> gravel and wash it out the following day. Everything will be
>> killed/disinfected by the bleach.
>>
>> -Derek
>
>What you are saying is making total sense....apart from a slight question
>mark over a certain nephew deciding to over feed...I cannot think of
>anything else (he was here a few days before the Mollie decline and again a
>couple of days ago). The gravel in this tank is not what I have in the
>others - it is more a pea gravel rather than the finer stuff I normally have
>so harder to vaccum....maybe there is something trapped in there - like
>Hydrogen Sulphide.....
>
>My son comes back tomorrow from his Dad's....he is already disallusioned and
>thinking of giving up fish keeping based on the recent deaths....I hope I
>can keep him hanging in there....he truly did love it....
>
>Gill
>

If he was of the age, would you keep an ex girl friend around because
he once really liked her? Why not keep the tank for your own interest
and let him move on? In my fast growing years (as in height) I moved
through many interests. Here I am 60 years later picking up on one of
those interests.

dick

Gill Passman

May 30th 05, 05:28 PM

"Dick" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 29 May 2005 23:27:16 +0100, "Gill Passman"
> <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Derek Benson" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> On Sun, 29 May 2005 12:23:31 +0100, "Gill Passman"
> >> <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Hi All,
> >> >This is really a continuation from the Sick Mollie in my son's tank
and
> >> >subsequent loss of two Mollies last weekend. I did my normal check
this
> >> >morning and now one of the Rosy Barbs is on her way out. Checked the
> >water
> >> >pH 8 (normal for our tanks), 0 Ammonia and Nitrites and Nitrates are
at
> >5.
> >> >
> >> >No new fish added for months. Tank has been running since last August.
> >> >
> >> >Tank is around 15UK galls. Current occupants are 1 mollie and 4 Rosy
> >Barbs
> >> >(around 10 inches of fish maximum). Plenty of plants. Water changes
are
> >> >weekly 20-30%. We've had very few problems with this tank until now.
> >> >
> >> >I just can't figure out what is going on here or what to do next. If
the
> >> >remaining Rosy Barbs would be OK with Gouramis I suppose I could move
> >them
> >> >and then strip down the tank - this is the only thing I can think of
for
> >> >now. But I hesitate because I don't want to risk infecting any of the
> >other
> >> >fish in the other tanks.
> >> >
> >> >Does anyone have any clues as to what might be happening or what I can
do
> >> >next to keep the remaining fish?
> >> >
> >> >Thanks
> >> >Gill
> >> >
> >> >
> >> If I try to rule out causes of death based on your info and the info
> >> you've given to others: It doesn't appear to be a common parasite like
> >> Ich, or velvet because you see these on the fish. Internal parasites,
> >> worms or flagellates or whatever will usually show symptoms of the
> >> fish getting thinner, wasting away, the feces might be weird, white
> >> and stringy or no feces at all from the fish. So I rule out all of
> >> these.
> >>
> >> I rule out poisoning be it from ammonia or nitrate or metals or
> >> something weird gotten into the tank because the fish should show
> >> signs of poisoning: breathing faster, panting at the surface or at the
> >> bottom of the tank.
> >>
> >> So what's left? I think your pH is a bit high, but if others want to
> >> say that it's fine for these fish I'll take their word for it. I don't
> >> pay much attention to pH anymore because where I live it's 7.0 out of
> >> the tap.
> >>
> >> If it's bacterial in nature as Elaine suggests, the way it works, as I
> >> understand it, is more or less like this. These bacteria which can
> >> cause illness, Aeromonas or Mycobacterium or whatever their names are,
> >> will always be present in your tank just like the bacteria you want in
> >> the tank, the species which break down the ammonia and nitrites. These
> >> evil bacteria will grow in numbers if the tank is generally not clean
> >> enough. Keep these numbers down by vacuuming gravel and changing water
> >> more frequently and diluting out the little buggers. The gravel in
> >> this tank is vacuumed all the way to the bottom glass of the tank? I
> >> ask because I think these bacteria live and multiply down there where
> >> there is less oxygen in the water surrounding the gravel.
> >>
> >> If this is a bacteria problem, I don't think these fish in the tank
> >> will infect fish in other tanks. The bacteria in question are already
> >> in the other tanks in certain numbers anyway. I think what I would do
> >> is move all the fish in with the gouramis, and tear down this tank
> >> completely and start it over. If you decide to do this, after you
> >> remove fish and plants pour in some chlorine bleach and stir up the
> >> gravel and wash it out the following day. Everything will be
> >> killed/disinfected by the bleach.
> >>
> >> -Derek
> >
> >What you are saying is making total sense....apart from a slight question
> >mark over a certain nephew deciding to over feed...I cannot think of
> >anything else (he was here a few days before the Mollie decline and again
a
> >couple of days ago). The gravel in this tank is not what I have in the
> >others - it is more a pea gravel rather than the finer stuff I normally
have
> >so harder to vaccum....maybe there is something trapped in there - like
> >Hydrogen Sulphide.....
> >
> >My son comes back tomorrow from his Dad's....he is already disallusioned
and
> >thinking of giving up fish keeping based on the recent deaths....I hope I
> >can keep him hanging in there....he truly did love it....
> >
> >Gill
> >
>
> If he was of the age, would you keep an ex girl friend around because
> he once really liked her? Why not keep the tank for your own interest
> and let him move on? In my fast growing years (as in height) I moved
> through many interests. Here I am 60 years later picking up on one of
> those interests.
>
> dick

I totally agree with you. I had a word with him about his tanks and
suggested even consolidating them into just one tank to make the maintenance
easier for him (me in reality). The answer I got was "you're just after one
of my tanks". He wants to keep going he's just fed up with losing the fish -
and I can't say that I blame him.

Here's hoping for happier times
Gill

Gill Passman

May 30th 05, 05:41 PM

"Mean_Chlorine" > wrote in message
...
> Thusly "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> Spake Unto
> All:
>
> >> They always die during the night?
> >
> >They always get ill during the night....they die later either in the next
> >day or the following day/night
>
> OK, that narrows it down a bit.
>
> Two obvious alternatives are oxygen depletion and attacks by other
> animals, e.g. some catfish, some crayfish... I had otocinclus which
> attacked and killed fish during the night some while back, for
> instance, and oxygen levels drop during the night.
>
> However, you've listed your fish, and you've not got any fish which
> should be capable of attacking other fish, and fish recover quickly
> from oxygen shortage.
>
> The main remaining possibility I can think of is flexibacter disease.
> It is extremely virulent, and may kill fish so quickly that they never
> develop any symptoms. The most resistant fish will, however,
> eventually develop symptoms: white fungus-like growths, and ulcers on
> their bodies, often around the mouth.
>
> But until you see any symptoms, flexibacter disease is just a wild
> guess based on the absence of evidence.
>

The bloke in the LFS wondered if it could be temperature fluctuations -
we've had some strange weather over the last week or so - ranging from
extremely hot to cold or pleasantly warm (around 70F) today. I can't say
I've noticed any variations in the tank temp or the other one in that room.
I would expect the tank in the Conservatory to suffer rather than this one.
He sold me something called Liquisil General Tonic (Interpet) that is
supposed to reduce "background levels of of bacteria, fungus and parasites
in aquariums" and suggested a small quantity of salt as well. So off to give
it a try along with another water change.

Still no sign of symptoms on any of the other fish........

Steve

May 30th 05, 06:41 PM

Gill Passman wrote:

>
> The bloke in the LFS wondered if it could be temperature fluctuations -
> we've had some strange weather over the last week or so - ranging from
> extremely hot to cold or pleasantly warm (around 70F) today. I can't say
> I've noticed any variations in the tank temp or the other one in that room.
> I would expect the tank in the Conservatory to suffer rather than this one.
> He sold me something called Liquisil General Tonic (Interpet) that is
> supposed to reduce "background levels of of bacteria, fungus and parasites
> in aquariums" and suggested a small quantity of salt as well. So off to give
> it a try along with another water change.
>
> Still no sign of symptoms on any of the other fish........
>
>
>
Hi,
I've kept fish in a modest way since 1963, with a 10-year break.

I began with W.T. Innes' "Exotic Aquarium Fishes". Then, starting the
hobby again in 1991, I borrowed a book by Stephen Spotte from the
library (Fish and invertebrate culture : water management in closed
systems?) that emphasized maintaining water quality through biological
filtration as a way of reducing stress and avoiding sick fish. Other
readings agreed with him, for example any issue of Aquarium Fish (they
never showed a picture of sick fish:)), and Tetra Press' "Aquariology
master volume one". The Internet, including newsgroups and "The Krib"
has also became a favourite reference, along with the "Aquarium Atlas"
by Riehl and Baensch.

Since doing reading such as above, I've tried to avoid medicating
aquariums. I simply use regular water changes, filtration (keep the old
media!) and modest stocking levels to manage my aquariums, and things
generally go well. I will admit to using formalin-based ich medication a
couple of times, and experimenting with plant nutrient additions.

It's a bit scary, the nasty possiblities ("flexibacter"!!) and harsh
treatments (Potassium permanganate) that are being suggested, for what
is likely a maintenance issue. Good, stable water quality and
temperature seem to be the recipe for successful aquarium keeping, along
with adequate feeding.

Here's to low-stress, satisfying aqaurium-keeping!

Steve

Nikki Casali

May 30th 05, 08:12 PM

Gill Passman wrote:

> "Mean_Chlorine" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Thusly "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> Spake Unto
>>All:
>>
>>
>>>>They always die during the night?
>>>
>>>They always get ill during the night....they die later either in the next
>>>day or the following day/night
>>
>>OK, that narrows it down a bit.
>>
>>Two obvious alternatives are oxygen depletion and attacks by other
>>animals, e.g. some catfish, some crayfish... I had otocinclus which
>>attacked and killed fish during the night some while back, for
>>instance, and oxygen levels drop during the night.
>>
>>However, you've listed your fish, and you've not got any fish which
>>should be capable of attacking other fish, and fish recover quickly
>>from oxygen shortage.
>>
>>The main remaining possibility I can think of is flexibacter disease.
>>It is extremely virulent, and may kill fish so quickly that they never
>>develop any symptoms. The most resistant fish will, however,
>>eventually develop symptoms: white fungus-like growths, and ulcers on
>>their bodies, often around the mouth.
>>
>>But until you see any symptoms, flexibacter disease is just a wild
>>guess based on the absence of evidence.
>>
>
>
> The bloke in the LFS wondered if it could be temperature fluctuations -
> we've had some strange weather over the last week or so - ranging from
> extremely hot to cold or pleasantly warm (around 70F) today. I can't say
> I've noticed any variations in the tank temp or the other one in that room.
> I would expect the tank in the Conservatory to suffer rather than this one.
> He sold me something called Liquisil General Tonic (Interpet) that is
> supposed to reduce "background levels of of bacteria, fungus and parasites
> in aquariums" and suggested a small quantity of salt as well. So off to give
> it a try along with another water change.
>
> Still no sign of symptoms on any of the other fish........

Sorry, can't suggest anything beyond that which has already been
suggested. Although my largest tank has fluctuated in temperature from
79F to 84F over the last week, I haven't noticed any negative side-effects.

How much are the fish fed? What's the nitrate level? I think you
mentioned pea gravel? I've always found large size gravel a dirt trap. I
now stick to sand or very fine gravel. Though it does mean the filter
media becomes the trap instead.

I did once obtain fish flakes impregnated with antibiotics in the UK.
But these were from a fish vet and I had to pay a consultation fee. £15
for 5 gm of fish flakes. Bit expensive! But it's the only route in the
UK. I may have a go ordering from USA by Internet.

Nikki

Gill Passman

May 30th 05, 08:50 PM

"Nikki Casali" > wrote in message
...
> Gill Passman wrote:
>
> > "Mean_Chlorine" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>Thusly "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> Spake Unto
> >>All:
> >>
> >>
> >>>>They always die during the night?
> >>>
> >>>They always get ill during the night....they die later either in the
next
> >>>day or the following day/night
> >>
> >>OK, that narrows it down a bit.
> >>
> >>Two obvious alternatives are oxygen depletion and attacks by other
> >>animals, e.g. some catfish, some crayfish... I had otocinclus which
> >>attacked and killed fish during the night some while back, for
> >>instance, and oxygen levels drop during the night.
> >>
> >>However, you've listed your fish, and you've not got any fish which
> >>should be capable of attacking other fish, and fish recover quickly
> >>from oxygen shortage.
> >>
> >>The main remaining possibility I can think of is flexibacter disease.
> >>It is extremely virulent, and may kill fish so quickly that they never
> >>develop any symptoms. The most resistant fish will, however,
> >>eventually develop symptoms: white fungus-like growths, and ulcers on
> >>their bodies, often around the mouth.
> >>
> >>But until you see any symptoms, flexibacter disease is just a wild
> >>guess based on the absence of evidence.
> >>
> >
> >
> > The bloke in the LFS wondered if it could be temperature fluctuations -
> > we've had some strange weather over the last week or so - ranging from
> > extremely hot to cold or pleasantly warm (around 70F) today. I can't say
> > I've noticed any variations in the tank temp or the other one in that
room.
> > I would expect the tank in the Conservatory to suffer rather than this
one.
> > He sold me something called Liquisil General Tonic (Interpet) that is
> > supposed to reduce "background levels of of bacteria, fungus and
parasites
> > in aquariums" and suggested a small quantity of salt as well. So off to
give
> > it a try along with another water change.
> >
> > Still no sign of symptoms on any of the other fish........
>
> Sorry, can't suggest anything beyond that which has already been
> suggested. Although my largest tank has fluctuated in temperature from
> 79F to 84F over the last week, I haven't noticed any negative
side-effects.
>
> How much are the fish fed? What's the nitrate level? I think you
> mentioned pea gravel? I've always found large size gravel a dirt trap. I
> now stick to sand or very fine gravel. Though it does mean the filter
> media becomes the trap instead.
>
> I did once obtain fish flakes impregnated with antibiotics in the UK.
> But these were from a fish vet and I had to pay a consultation fee. £15
> for 5 gm of fish flakes. Bit expensive! But it's the only route in the
> UK. I may have a go ordering from USA by Internet.
>
> Nikki
>
It has to be said I haven't noticed any side effects either on the other
tanks from the temp variations we've had over the last week or so....so I
don't think it is this.

Nitrates are 5, pH is 8 which is normal for here, Ammonia and nitrite both
0.

We gave it a good clean tonight stirring up the gravel as usual - did around
a 30% change. Added the tonic and 1 desertspoon of salt.

As for feeding, all the tanks get a small amount twice daily. I prefer doing
it in two lots giving smaller amounts twice rather than one larger amount as
it seems to make sense in terms of cutting wastage and the subsequent
results of decaying food or very bloated fish. It is all gone within less
than a minute with the exception of the algae wafers, sinking tabs or any
cucumber treats I give. I do have a slight suspicion that they might have
been overfed a couple of days before the first Mollie death and maybe again
this Thursday but I can't substantiate that - it certainly would not have
been done by either me or Matthew the two people responsible for fish
feeding - if either of us is unsure if the other has done it we just don't
feed the fish.

I don't like the pea gravel either. The only tanks we have it in are
Matthew's two tanks upstairs. Might be an opportunity to change it next
weekend - if only to get the plants to root let alone this potential issue.

Gill

Elaine T

May 30th 05, 08:52 PM

Elaine T wrote:
> Gill Passman wrote:
>
>> "Elaine T" > wrote in message
>> m...
>>
>>> Gill Passman wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Billy" > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
>>>>> .. .
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> They are absolutely fine until it happens. Swimming around happily
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> feeding well - last night everyone was absolutely normal. No sign
>>>>>> of any
>>>>>> bloating or distress or any marks on them at all. Then I just find
>>>>>> them at
>>>>>> the bottom of the tank hardly moving and then they die. Gill
>>>>>> movement is
>>>>>> normal and as I said there is no sign of any fungal infection or
>>>>>> injury....
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Any foreign materials in tank? Recent addition of decorations?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Nothing added since the Barbs in Jan/Feb....also nothing taken out
>>
>>
>> (apart
>>
>>>> from the dead fish). No new decorations or even plants. Very small
>>
>>
>> ammonia
>>
>>>> spike (lowest reading) about 9 days ago along with a slightly higher pH
>>>> reading (which I'm not convinced I read properly). Rectified all of
>>>> this
>>
>>
>> and
>>
>>>> have not had any suspect readings since a week ago last saturday but
>>
>>
>> lost
>>
>>>> another Mollie shortly after. No difference in how I treat the water -
>>>> follow the same routine on all of the tanks and there is no problem in
>>
>>
>> any
>>
>>>> of the others.
>>>>
>>>> The only thing that I have done differently, a couple of weeks ago, was
>>
>>
>> to
>>
>>>> use a magnetic algae scraper. Haven't used it again as the fish kept
>>
>>
>> trying
>>
>>>> to get between it and the glass so I decided it was too risky to use it
>>
>>
>> in
>>
>>>> the tank.
>>>>
>>>> It it is not disease or agression, I can only think that there is
>>
>>
>> something
>>
>>>> toxic in the water that I don't test for. But if that is the case I
>>
>>
>> would
>>
>>>> have expected them all to be carried off at once or at least within a
>>
>>
>> few
>>
>>>> days but this has not happened.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Test Kit is the same one I use on all the tanks and know to be
>>>> accurate.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Usually, bacterial disease overwhelm fish quickly as you're seeing.
>>> Parasites take longer. I would start feeding an antibacterial food, if
>>> you can find one. You also might remove your biofilter media, treat the
>>> tank with 2 ppm potassium permanganate for four hours (there should be
>>> instructions on the bottle for amount), add dechlorinator - the
>>> permanganate should change from pink/purple to brown, and then put the
>>> filter media back. This will reduce both bacterial and parasitic
>>> populations in the tank.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Elaine T __
>>> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
>>> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com
>>
>>
>> Hi Elaine,
>>
>> If it is bacterial I'm not quite sure how it got in there but it's
>> worth a
>> shot. I'm not sure that we can get antibacterial food in the UK (I
>> remember
>> someone posting this - Nikki I think) but I'll take a look.
>>
>> With the Potassium Permanganate - do I do this with the fish in the
>> tank or
>> do I move them for the four hours? I guess I could bag them and put
>> them in
>> one of the other tanks to keep the temp up - not too much of a problem
>> though this time of year....Plus if the filter is out of the tank for the
>> four hours is there going to be a risk of a "mini cycle" when I put it
>> back....I'm relucant to hang it one of the other tanks because of not
>> knowing the problem...I guess I could put it in a bucket of tank water.
>>
>> Thanks
>> Gill
>>
>>
> Leave fish in the tank. Four hours shouldn't kill your filter.
>
Re-reading this, I realized I sounded quite brusque. I was reading the
NG in a big hurry and had about 10 seconds to type! Didn't mean to be
rude. The permanganate will kill bacteria on the fishes skin and gills
as well as on the plants and in the tank. I don't think 4 hours in a
bucket of tankwater will damage your biofilter, and I agree with not
putting it on another tank.

Permanganate is widely used in aquaculture and ponds for parasites and
bacteria becaue it has a very broad spectrum of action.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

Elaine T

May 30th 05, 08:53 PM

Gill Passman wrote:
> "Mean_Chlorine" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Thusly "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> Spake Unto
>>All:
>>
>>
>>>>They always die during the night?
>>>
>>>They always get ill during the night....they die later either in the next
>>>day or the following day/night
>>
>>OK, that narrows it down a bit.
>>
>>Two obvious alternatives are oxygen depletion and attacks by other
>>animals, e.g. some catfish, some crayfish... I had otocinclus which
>>attacked and killed fish during the night some while back, for
>>instance, and oxygen levels drop during the night.
>>
>>However, you've listed your fish, and you've not got any fish which
>>should be capable of attacking other fish, and fish recover quickly
>>from oxygen shortage.
>>
>>The main remaining possibility I can think of is flexibacter disease.
>>It is extremely virulent, and may kill fish so quickly that they never
>>develop any symptoms. The most resistant fish will, however,
>>eventually develop symptoms: white fungus-like growths, and ulcers on
>>their bodies, often around the mouth.
>>
>>But until you see any symptoms, flexibacter disease is just a wild
>>guess based on the absence of evidence.
>>
>
>
> The bloke in the LFS wondered if it could be temperature fluctuations -
> we've had some strange weather over the last week or so - ranging from
> extremely hot to cold or pleasantly warm (around 70F) today. I can't say
> I've noticed any variations in the tank temp or the other one in that room.
> I would expect the tank in the Conservatory to suffer rather than this one.
> He sold me something called Liquisil General Tonic (Interpet) that is
> supposed to reduce "background levels of of bacteria, fungus and parasites
> in aquariums" and suggested a small quantity of salt as well. So off to give
> it a try along with another water change.
>
> Still no sign of symptoms on any of the other fish........
>
>
>
I have an unfiltered outdoor tank that sometimes fluctuates 10 degrees
from day to night. The guppies and goodeids living there are perfectly
fine. I don't buy the temps thing.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

Gill Passman

May 30th 05, 08:56 PM

"Steve" > wrote in message
.. .
> Gill Passman wrote:
>
> >
> > The bloke in the LFS wondered if it could be temperature fluctuations -
> > we've had some strange weather over the last week or so - ranging from
> > extremely hot to cold or pleasantly warm (around 70F) today. I can't say
> > I've noticed any variations in the tank temp or the other one in that
room.
> > I would expect the tank in the Conservatory to suffer rather than this
one.
> > He sold me something called Liquisil General Tonic (Interpet) that is
> > supposed to reduce "background levels of of bacteria, fungus and
parasites
> > in aquariums" and suggested a small quantity of salt as well. So off to
give
> > it a try along with another water change.
> >
> > Still no sign of symptoms on any of the other fish........
> >
> >
> >
> Hi,
> I've kept fish in a modest way since 1963, with a 10-year break.
>
> I began with W.T. Innes' "Exotic Aquarium Fishes". Then, starting the
> hobby again in 1991, I borrowed a book by Stephen Spotte from the
> library (Fish and invertebrate culture : water management in closed
> systems?) that emphasized maintaining water quality through biological
> filtration as a way of reducing stress and avoiding sick fish. Other
> readings agreed with him, for example any issue of Aquarium Fish (they
> never showed a picture of sick fish:)), and Tetra Press' "Aquariology
> master volume one". The Internet, including newsgroups and "The Krib"
> has also became a favourite reference, along with the "Aquarium Atlas"
> by Riehl and Baensch.
>
> Since doing reading such as above, I've tried to avoid medicating
> aquariums. I simply use regular water changes, filtration (keep the old
> media!) and modest stocking levels to manage my aquariums, and things
> generally go well. I will admit to using formalin-based ich medication a
> couple of times, and experimenting with plant nutrient additions.
>
> It's a bit scary, the nasty possiblities ("flexibacter"!!) and harsh
> treatments (Potassium permanganate) that are being suggested, for what
> is likely a maintenance issue. Good, stable water quality and
> temperature seem to be the recipe for successful aquarium keeping, along
> with adequate feeding.
>
> Here's to low-stress, satisfying aqaurium-keeping!
>
> Steve

Thanks Steve,
Totally agree with you on tank maintenance and meds (although like you have
had to use Ich treatment). We do a 20% plus change on all of the tanks once
a week unless tackling a specific problem plus routinely check the water
quality parameters which are fine - this tank has always been fine until
last weekend. The filters get rinsed in tank water.

Something happened that has sparked this off....and I still suspect water
quality although all has been fine for a week. I also don't know what
sparked this off in a tank that is not overstocked and has been stable for
months with nothing new added.

I don't think that the "Tonic" will harm and might do some good so I'm
trying it. But the emphasis is on water changes and quality and has been
since the first death....

Gill

Elaine T

May 30th 05, 09:05 PM

Derek Benson wrote:
> On Sun, 29 May 2005 12:23:31 +0100, "Gill Passman"
> <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>>Hi All,
>>This is really a continuation from the Sick Mollie in my son's tank and
>>subsequent loss of two Mollies last weekend. I did my normal check this
>>morning and now one of the Rosy Barbs is on her way out. Checked the water
>>pH 8 (normal for our tanks), 0 Ammonia and Nitrites and Nitrates are at 5.
>>
>>No new fish added for months. Tank has been running since last August.
>>
>>Tank is around 15UK galls. Current occupants are 1 mollie and 4 Rosy Barbs
>>(around 10 inches of fish maximum). Plenty of plants. Water changes are
>>weekly 20-30%. We've had very few problems with this tank until now.
>>
>>I just can't figure out what is going on here or what to do next. If the
>>remaining Rosy Barbs would be OK with Gouramis I suppose I could move them
>>and then strip down the tank - this is the only thing I can think of for
>>now. But I hesitate because I don't want to risk infecting any of the other
>>fish in the other tanks.
>>
>>Does anyone have any clues as to what might be happening or what I can do
>>next to keep the remaining fish?
>>
>>Thanks
>>Gill
>>
>>
>
> If I try to rule out causes of death based on your info and the info
> you've given to others: It doesn't appear to be a common parasite like
> Ich, or velvet because you see these on the fish. Internal parasites,
> worms or flagellates or whatever will usually show symptoms of the
> fish getting thinner, wasting away, the feces might be weird, white
> and stringy or no feces at all from the fish. So I rule out all of
> these.
>
> I rule out poisoning be it from ammonia or nitrate or metals or
> something weird gotten into the tank because the fish should show
> signs of poisoning: breathing faster, panting at the surface or at the
> bottom of the tank.
>
> So what's left? I think your pH is a bit high, but if others want to
> say that it's fine for these fish I'll take their word for it. I don't
> pay much attention to pH anymore because where I live it's 7.0 out of
> the tap.
>
> If it's bacterial in nature as Elaine suggests, the way it works, as I
> understand it, is more or less like this. These bacteria which can
> cause illness, Aeromonas or Mycobacterium or whatever their names are,
> will always be present in your tank just like the bacteria you want in
> the tank, the species which break down the ammonia and nitrites. These
> evil bacteria will grow in numbers if the tank is generally not clean
> enough. Keep these numbers down by vacuuming gravel and changing water
> more frequently and diluting out the little buggers. The gravel in
> this tank is vacuumed all the way to the bottom glass of the tank? I
> ask because I think these bacteria live and multiply down there where
> there is less oxygen in the water surrounding the gravel.
>
> If this is a bacteria problem, I don't think these fish in the tank
> will infect fish in other tanks. The bacteria in question are already
> in the other tanks in certain numbers anyway. I think what I would do
> is move all the fish in with the gouramis, and tear down this tank
> completely and start it over. If you decide to do this, after you
> remove fish and plants pour in some chlorine bleach and stir up the
> gravel and wash it out the following day. Everything will be
> killed/disinfected by the bleach.
>
> -Derek

I've seen drop-dead-itis caused by particularly virulent forms of
flexibacter. It spreads through water or when fish pick at a dead fish,
and get an internal infection. As you said, bacteria can be present in
tanks and bloom in nutrient rich gravel. The nice thing about the
permanganate is that it does a light, fish-friendly oxidation similar to
bleach. It will reduce the numbers of bacteria in the tank so the
fishes immune systems can fight them off again.

You may be right that a tear-down and disinfection is better, using
filter media from a different tank to jump-start the filter. It's a lot
of work and stress on the fish, and I was hoping that using a light
permanganate treatment along with a good cleaning would avoid Gill's
having to do that.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

Steve

May 30th 05, 09:28 PM

Gill Passman wrote:

>
> As for feeding, all the tanks get a small amount twice daily. I prefer doing
> it in two lots giving smaller amounts twice rather than one larger amount as
> it seems to make sense in terms of cutting wastage and the subsequent
> results of decaying food or very bloated fish. It is all gone within less
> than a minute with the exception of the algae wafers, sinking tabs or any
> cucumber treats I give. I do have a slight suspicion that they might have
> been overfed a couple of days before the first Mollie death and maybe again
> this Thursday but I can't substantiate that - it certainly would not have
> been done by either me or Matthew the two people responsible for fish
> feeding - if either of us is unsure if the other has done it we just don't
> feed the fish.
>
> I don't like the pea gravel either. The only tanks we have it in are
> Matthew's two tanks upstairs. Might be an opportunity to change it next
> weekend - if only to get the plants to root let alone this potential issue.
>
> Gill
>
>

Hi,
If the aquariums have been overfed by helpful family members while I'm
out of town, then in gravel vacuuming I see quite a few decayed flakes
come up, instead of just mulm. The filters seem to take care of any
excess ammonia that might have been generated - never a real problem. A
day or two of moderate overfeeding does not sound harmful, but who knows?

It sounds like you've lost a molly or two? Sorry, but I've found
livebearers to be short-lived (a year or three) although prolific.

Re: changing the substrate, your gravel may be supporting helpful
nitrifying bacteria, and it might be wise to wait until you're sure the
aquarium is stable. I used "CaribSea Eco-Complete Planted Aquarium
Substrate" in my big aquarium a year ago and really like it. "Flourite"
seems to be about the same, but I haven't tried it. This was after years
of using gravel and sand from gravel pits, and soil and peat from the
garden - with mixed results. The commercial plant substrates do seem to
be worth paying for.
Steve

Gill Passman

May 30th 05, 10:10 PM

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
.. .
> Elaine T wrote:
> > Gill Passman wrote:
> >
> >> "Elaine T" > wrote in message
> >> m...
> >>
> >>> Gill Passman wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> "Billy" > wrote in message
> >>>> ...
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
> >>>>> .. .
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> They are absolutely fine until it happens. Swimming around happily
> >>>>>> and
> >>>>>> feeding well - last night everyone was absolutely normal. No sign
> >>>>>> of any
> >>>>>> bloating or distress or any marks on them at all. Then I just find
> >>>>>> them at
> >>>>>> the bottom of the tank hardly moving and then they die. Gill
> >>>>>> movement is
> >>>>>> normal and as I said there is no sign of any fungal infection or
> >>>>>> injury....
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Any foreign materials in tank? Recent addition of decorations?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Nothing added since the Barbs in Jan/Feb....also nothing taken out
> >>
> >>
> >> (apart
> >>
> >>>> from the dead fish). No new decorations or even plants. Very small
> >>
> >>
> >> ammonia
> >>
> >>>> spike (lowest reading) about 9 days ago along with a slightly higher
pH
> >>>> reading (which I'm not convinced I read properly). Rectified all of
> >>>> this
> >>
> >>
> >> and
> >>
> >>>> have not had any suspect readings since a week ago last saturday but
> >>
> >>
> >> lost
> >>
> >>>> another Mollie shortly after. No difference in how I treat the
water -
> >>>> follow the same routine on all of the tanks and there is no problem
in
> >>
> >>
> >> any
> >>
> >>>> of the others.
> >>>>
> >>>> The only thing that I have done differently, a couple of weeks ago,
was
> >>
> >>
> >> to
> >>
> >>>> use a magnetic algae scraper. Haven't used it again as the fish kept
> >>
> >>
> >> trying
> >>
> >>>> to get between it and the glass so I decided it was too risky to use
it
> >>
> >>
> >> in
> >>
> >>>> the tank.
> >>>>
> >>>> It it is not disease or agression, I can only think that there is
> >>
> >>
> >> something
> >>
> >>>> toxic in the water that I don't test for. But if that is the case I
> >>
> >>
> >> would
> >>
> >>>> have expected them all to be carried off at once or at least within a
> >>
> >>
> >> few
> >>
> >>>> days but this has not happened.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Test Kit is the same one I use on all the tanks and know to be
> >>>> accurate.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Usually, bacterial disease overwhelm fish quickly as you're seeing.
> >>> Parasites take longer. I would start feeding an antibacterial food,
if
> >>> you can find one. You also might remove your biofilter media, treat
the
> >>> tank with 2 ppm potassium permanganate for four hours (there should be
> >>> instructions on the bottle for amount), add dechlorinator - the
> >>> permanganate should change from pink/purple to brown, and then put the
> >>> filter media back. This will reduce both bacterial and parasitic
> >>> populations in the tank.
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Elaine T __
> >>> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> >>> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com
> >>
> >>
> >> Hi Elaine,
> >>
> >> If it is bacterial I'm not quite sure how it got in there but it's
> >> worth a
> >> shot. I'm not sure that we can get antibacterial food in the UK (I
> >> remember
> >> someone posting this - Nikki I think) but I'll take a look.
> >>
> >> With the Potassium Permanganate - do I do this with the fish in the
> >> tank or
> >> do I move them for the four hours? I guess I could bag them and put
> >> them in
> >> one of the other tanks to keep the temp up - not too much of a problem
> >> though this time of year....Plus if the filter is out of the tank for
the
> >> four hours is there going to be a risk of a "mini cycle" when I put it
> >> back....I'm relucant to hang it one of the other tanks because of not
> >> knowing the problem...I guess I could put it in a bucket of tank water.
> >>
> >> Thanks
> >> Gill
> >>
> >>
> > Leave fish in the tank. Four hours shouldn't kill your filter.
> >
> Re-reading this, I realized I sounded quite brusque. I was reading the
> NG in a big hurry and had about 10 seconds to type! Didn't mean to be
> rude. The permanganate will kill bacteria on the fishes skin and gills
> as well as on the plants and in the tank. I don't think 4 hours in a
> bucket of tankwater will damage your biofilter, and I agree with not
> putting it on another tank.
>
> Permanganate is widely used in aquaculture and ponds for parasites and
> bacteria becaue it has a very broad spectrum of action.
>
> --
> Elaine T __
> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

No worries....I didn't take it that way at all.... :-)

Gill Passman

May 30th 05, 10:13 PM

"Steve" > wrote in message
.. .
> Gill Passman wrote:
>
> >
> > As for feeding, all the tanks get a small amount twice daily. I prefer
doing
> > it in two lots giving smaller amounts twice rather than one larger
amount as
> > it seems to make sense in terms of cutting wastage and the subsequent
> > results of decaying food or very bloated fish. It is all gone within
less
> > than a minute with the exception of the algae wafers, sinking tabs or
any
> > cucumber treats I give. I do have a slight suspicion that they might
have
> > been overfed a couple of days before the first Mollie death and maybe
again
> > this Thursday but I can't substantiate that - it certainly would not
have
> > been done by either me or Matthew the two people responsible for fish
> > feeding - if either of us is unsure if the other has done it we just
don't
> > feed the fish.
> >
> > I don't like the pea gravel either. The only tanks we have it in are
> > Matthew's two tanks upstairs. Might be an opportunity to change it next
> > weekend - if only to get the plants to root let alone this potential
issue.
> >
> > Gill
> >
> >
>
> Hi,
> If the aquariums have been overfed by helpful family members while I'm
> out of town, then in gravel vacuuming I see quite a few decayed flakes
> come up, instead of just mulm. The filters seem to take care of any
> excess ammonia that might have been generated - never a real problem. A
> day or two of moderate overfeeding does not sound harmful, but who
knows?
>
> It sounds like you've lost a molly or two? Sorry, but I've found
> livebearers to be short-lived (a year or three) although prolific.
>
> Re: changing the substrate, your gravel may be supporting helpful
> nitrifying bacteria, and it might be wise to wait until you're sure the
> aquarium is stable. I used "CaribSea Eco-Complete Planted Aquarium
> Substrate" in my big aquarium a year ago and really like it. "Flourite"
> seems to be about the same, but I haven't tried it. This was after years
> of using gravel and sand from gravel pits, and soil and peat from the
> garden - with mixed results. The commercial plant substrates do seem to
> be worth paying for.
> Steve

Two Mollies and one Rosy Barb to date.....any substrate change would be
gradual - I wouldn't remove it all at once for the reasons that you cite....

Thanks
Gill

Gill Passman

May 30th 05, 10:22 PM

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
. com...
> Derek Benson wrote:
> > On Sun, 29 May 2005 12:23:31 +0100, "Gill Passman"
> > <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Hi All,
> >>This is really a continuation from the Sick Mollie in my son's tank and
> >>subsequent loss of two Mollies last weekend. I did my normal check this
> >>morning and now one of the Rosy Barbs is on her way out. Checked the
water
> >>pH 8 (normal for our tanks), 0 Ammonia and Nitrites and Nitrates are at
5.
> >>
> >>No new fish added for months. Tank has been running since last August.
> >>
> >>Tank is around 15UK galls. Current occupants are 1 mollie and 4 Rosy
Barbs
> >>(around 10 inches of fish maximum). Plenty of plants. Water changes are
> >>weekly 20-30%. We've had very few problems with this tank until now.
> >>
> >>I just can't figure out what is going on here or what to do next. If the
> >>remaining Rosy Barbs would be OK with Gouramis I suppose I could move
them
> >>and then strip down the tank - this is the only thing I can think of for
> >>now. But I hesitate because I don't want to risk infecting any of the
other
> >>fish in the other tanks.
> >>
> >>Does anyone have any clues as to what might be happening or what I can
do
> >>next to keep the remaining fish?
> >>
> >>Thanks
> >>Gill
> >>
> >>
> >
> > If I try to rule out causes of death based on your info and the info
> > you've given to others: It doesn't appear to be a common parasite like
> > Ich, or velvet because you see these on the fish. Internal parasites,
> > worms or flagellates or whatever will usually show symptoms of the
> > fish getting thinner, wasting away, the feces might be weird, white
> > and stringy or no feces at all from the fish. So I rule out all of
> > these.
> >
> > I rule out poisoning be it from ammonia or nitrate or metals or
> > something weird gotten into the tank because the fish should show
> > signs of poisoning: breathing faster, panting at the surface or at the
> > bottom of the tank.
> >
> > So what's left? I think your pH is a bit high, but if others want to
> > say that it's fine for these fish I'll take their word for it. I don't
> > pay much attention to pH anymore because where I live it's 7.0 out of
> > the tap.
> >
> > If it's bacterial in nature as Elaine suggests, the way it works, as I
> > understand it, is more or less like this. These bacteria which can
> > cause illness, Aeromonas or Mycobacterium or whatever their names are,
> > will always be present in your tank just like the bacteria you want in
> > the tank, the species which break down the ammonia and nitrites. These
> > evil bacteria will grow in numbers if the tank is generally not clean
> > enough. Keep these numbers down by vacuuming gravel and changing water
> > more frequently and diluting out the little buggers. The gravel in
> > this tank is vacuumed all the way to the bottom glass of the tank? I
> > ask because I think these bacteria live and multiply down there where
> > there is less oxygen in the water surrounding the gravel.
> >
> > If this is a bacteria problem, I don't think these fish in the tank
> > will infect fish in other tanks. The bacteria in question are already
> > in the other tanks in certain numbers anyway. I think what I would do
> > is move all the fish in with the gouramis, and tear down this tank
> > completely and start it over. If you decide to do this, after you
> > remove fish and plants pour in some chlorine bleach and stir up the
> > gravel and wash it out the following day. Everything will be
> > killed/disinfected by the bleach.
> >
> > -Derek
>
> I've seen drop-dead-itis caused by particularly virulent forms of
> flexibacter. It spreads through water or when fish pick at a dead fish,
> and get an internal infection. As you said, bacteria can be present in
> tanks and bloom in nutrient rich gravel. The nice thing about the
> permanganate is that it does a light, fish-friendly oxidation similar to
> bleach. It will reduce the numbers of bacteria in the tank so the
> fishes immune systems can fight them off again.
>
> You may be right that a tear-down and disinfection is better, using
> filter media from a different tank to jump-start the filter. It's a lot
> of work and stress on the fish, and I was hoping that using a light
> permanganate treatment along with a good cleaning would avoid Gill's
> having to do that.
>
> --
> Elaine T __
> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

I ran all of the ideas past Matthew (my son) who owns the tank in question -
young but very sensible - reads and researches a lot. He does not want to
tear down the tank - mainly because he suspects that I might steal it if he
does and won't believe any reassurances....

Equally he does not want to move the fish into his 30gall just in case it is
anything infectious. (Quite sensible IMO)

We did a 30% change tonight and added salt and Liquisil General Tonic
(Interpet) which is supposed to tackle "background levels of of bacteria,
fungus and parasites
in aquariums"

Permanganate will be the next step.....hopefully we won't lose any more and
need to take it (fingers crossed)

Thanks everyone

Gill

Steve

May 30th 05, 10:32 PM

Gill Passman wrote:
> "Steve" > wrote in message
>
>>It sounds like you've lost a molly or two? Sorry, but I've found
>>livebearers to be short-lived (a year or three) although prolific.
>>
>>Re: changing the substrate, your gravel may be supporting helpful
>>nitrifying bacteria, and it might be wise to wait until you're sure the
>>aquarium is stable. I used "CaribSea Eco-Complete Planted Aquarium
>>Substrate" in my big aquarium a year ago and really like it. "Flourite"
>>seems to be about the same, but I haven't tried it. This was after years
>>of using gravel and sand from gravel pits, and soil and peat from the
>>garden - with mixed results. The commercial plant substrates do seem to
>>be worth paying for.
>>Steve
>
>
> Two Mollies and one Rosy Barb to date.....any substrate change would be
> gradual - I wouldn't remove it all at once for the reasons that you cite....
>
> Thanks
> Gill
>
>
My Rosy Barbs were tough as nails!

For the substrate change to eco-complete a year ago, the fish and plants
went into picnic coolers and plastic tubs for a few hours, I drained the
tank and replaced all the substrate at once. I've done it once or twice
before without problems, but do have lots of plants plus a large
canister filter.

It sounds like you enjoy your aquariums too, good luck!
Steve

Derek Benson

May 30th 05, 10:54 PM

On Mon, 30 May 2005 20:50:39 +0100, "Gill Passman"
<gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote:

>We gave it a good clean tonight stirring up the gravel as usual - did around
>a 30% change. Added the tonic and 1 desertspoon of salt.

What do you mean here, "stirring up the gravel as usual"? Is this to
say that you don't vacuum the gravel, with a gravel vacuum, either
bought or homemade. If what you're doing is putting your hand or your
son's hand in there and stirring around the gravel so any stuff that's
in there is swirling up into the water and at the same time you change
some of this water, then I think this is not a good idea. Because if
there's weird stuff down in your gravel, like these bacteria I've
mentioned, or it might be Disolved Organic Compounds some of which
have maybe sunk down into the gravel, then you're letting loose all
these hypothetical nasties (if they're there) into the water for your
fish to take in through the gills.

>I don't like the pea gravel either. The only tanks we have it in are
>Matthew's two tanks upstairs. Might be an opportunity to change it next
>weekend - if only to get the plants to root let alone this potential issue.
>Gill

What is this pea gravel exactly? What size is it? If it's as large as
4-5mm or larger get rid of it. 1-2mm aquarium gravel, or maybe it's
2-3 mm, the standard natural color aquarium gravel is what you want.
What kind of filter is on this tank again? Please specify, internal
sponge blah blah or external canister blah blah. People mention names
like the Fluval 515253 or whatever and I never have any idea what
they're talking about: too many different names. (I know what an Eheim
is though.)

-Derek

Mean_Chlorine

May 30th 05, 11:12 PM

Thusly "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> Spake Unto
All:

>The bloke in the LFS wondered if it could be temperature fluctuations -

No. Not a chance. Any temperature within the 20C - 30C range is
completely acceptable, even long-term, for any species commonly sold
as aquarium fish. Regardless of whatever other impression you may have
got from books/various sites.

>He sold me something called Liquisil General Tonic (Interpet) that is
>supposed to reduce "background levels of of bacteria, fungus and parasites
>in aquariums" and suggested a small quantity of salt as well. So off to give
>it a try along with another water change.

I'm not a big fan of blindly administering medications to aquaria.
More often than not they mess up the balance and kill filter bacteria,
even if it says on the box they don't.

>Still no sign of symptoms on any of the other fish........

Well, that's hopeful at least. Viral and bacterial diseases do "burn
themselves out" in aquaria, which is fortunate as they rarely respond
to medication.

Gill Passman

May 30th 05, 11:44 PM

"Derek Benson" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 30 May 2005 20:50:39 +0100, "Gill Passman"
> <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >We gave it a good clean tonight stirring up the gravel as usual - did
around
> >a 30% change. Added the tonic and 1 desertspoon of salt.
>
> What do you mean here, "stirring up the gravel as usual"? Is this to
> say that you don't vacuum the gravel, with a gravel vacuum, either
> bought or homemade. If what you're doing is putting your hand or your
> son's hand in there and stirring around the gravel so any stuff that's
> in there is swirling up into the water and at the same time you change
> some of this water, then I think this is not a good idea. Because if
> there's weird stuff down in your gravel, like these bacteria I've
> mentioned, or it might be Disolved Organic Compounds some of which
> have maybe sunk down into the gravel, then you're letting loose all
> these hypothetical nasties (if they're there) into the water for your
> fish to take in through the gills.
>
> >I don't like the pea gravel either. The only tanks we have it in are
> >Matthew's two tanks upstairs. Might be an opportunity to change it next
> >weekend - if only to get the plants to root let alone this potential
issue.
> >Gill
>
> What is this pea gravel exactly? What size is it? If it's as large as
> 4-5mm or larger get rid of it. 1-2mm aquarium gravel, or maybe it's
> 2-3 mm, the standard natural color aquarium gravel is what you want.
> What kind of filter is on this tank again? Please specify, internal
> sponge blah blah or external canister blah blah. People mention names
> like the Fluval 515253 or whatever and I never have any idea what
> they're talking about: too many different names. (I know what an Eheim
> is though.)
>
> -Derek

Hi Derek,
By stirring up the gravel I mean using a gravel vac and pulling it up into
the chamber until it is clean and dropping it back in again with all the
muck going into the bucket - sorry, probably me being not literal enough (or
maybe too English - lol)
We use gravel vacs on all the tanks....dedicated to the specific tank where
possible and washed and sterilised where not. The tank in question has it's
own dedicated gravel vac.

Pea gravel is around 5mm and yes I would like rid of it....all the other
tanks have the finer stuff....I'm not happy with it partly because of the
problems with planting in it but also because I am not entirely convinced on
the health aspect of it. Every where else is natural and fine apart from
these two tanks.

It's an internal sponge - squeeze it out in tank water every 4 weeks or
so...never gets clogged up. It came with the tank. About the equiv of a
fluval I'm not sure if 1 or 2. I actually swopped one of these out on my hex
tank for a fluval 2 internal. Maybe I should do the same....not had any
problems in the past though until now.

Gill

Gill Passman

May 30th 05, 11:49 PM

"Mean_Chlorine" > wrote in message
...
> Thusly "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> Spake Unto
> All:
>
> >The bloke in the LFS wondered if it could be temperature fluctuations -
>
> No. Not a chance. Any temperature within the 20C - 30C range is
> completely acceptable, even long-term, for any species commonly sold
> as aquarium fish. Regardless of whatever other impression you may have
> got from books/various sites.
>
> >He sold me something called Liquisil General Tonic (Interpet) that is
> >supposed to reduce "background levels of of bacteria, fungus and
parasites
> >in aquariums" and suggested a small quantity of salt as well. So off to
give
> >it a try along with another water change.
>
> I'm not a big fan of blindly administering medications to aquaria.
> More often than not they mess up the balance and kill filter bacteria,
> even if it says on the box they don't.
>
> >Still no sign of symptoms on any of the other fish........
>
> Well, that's hopeful at least. Viral and bacterial diseases do "burn
> themselves out" in aquaria, which is fortunate as they rarely respond
> to medication.
>
Agreed. This is why we went for this so called "gentle" tonic option. I hate
putting anything in the tanks other than water conditioner and have only
done so in the past when putting in Ich treatment where I had no choice.

I'm very much watching this space....there were no symptoms on the others
until it was too late

I think the temp thing was a stab in the dark....he doesn't know either. We
have had some wild temperature fluctuations in the UK over the past week
ranging from early 80F to only hitting above 50F daytime and colder at
night. But, this is not a tank I would expect to fall foul of this
especially as there are two tanks in there and the other one is fine. I
worry constantly about the one in the conservatory but we seem to have the
temp sussed both in the room and tank.....

I guess it is wait and see....
Gill

Nikki Casali

May 31st 05, 12:14 AM

Steve wrote:

> Gill Passman wrote:
>
>> "Steve" > wrote in message
>>
>>> It sounds like you've lost a molly or two? Sorry, but I've found
>>> livebearers to be short-lived (a year or three) although prolific.
>>>
>>> Re: changing the substrate, your gravel may be supporting helpful
>>> nitrifying bacteria, and it might be wise to wait until you're sure the
>>> aquarium is stable. I used "CaribSea Eco-Complete Planted Aquarium
>>> Substrate" in my big aquarium a year ago and really like it. "Flourite"
>>> seems to be about the same, but I haven't tried it. This was after years
>>> of using gravel and sand from gravel pits, and soil and peat from the
>>> garden - with mixed results. The commercial plant substrates do seem to
>>> be worth paying for.
>>> Steve
>>
>>
>>
>> Two Mollies and one Rosy Barb to date.....any substrate change would be
>> gradual - I wouldn't remove it all at once for the reasons that you
>> cite....
>>
>> Thanks
>> Gill
>>
>>
> My Rosy Barbs were tough as nails!
>
> For the substrate change to eco-complete a year ago, the fish and plants
> went into picnic coolers and plastic tubs for a few hours, I drained the
> tank and replaced all the substrate at once. I've done it once or twice
> before without problems, but do have lots of plants plus a large
> canister filter.

Steve, did you put back the original aquarium water?

Nikki

Steve

May 31st 05, 12:49 AM

Nikki Casali wrote:
>>
>> For the substrate change to eco-complete a year ago, the fish and
>> plants went into picnic coolers and plastic tubs for a few hours, I
>> drained the tank and replaced all the substrate at once. I've done it
>> once or twice before without problems, but do have lots of plants plus
>> a large canister filter.
>
>
> Steve, did you put back the original aquarium water?
>
> Nikki
>

It's a 90-gallon aquarium and I re-used perhaps 15-20 gallons of
original aquarium water, maybe less. Results might have been the same
had I not re-used any original aquarium water.

After changing the substrate, I filled the aquarium 2/3 with tapwater of
correct temperature, adding declorinator, and planted it. Then I lowered
the (original aquarium) water levels in tubs and coolers containing fish
to below 1/2. This drained water went into the aquarium. Subsequently I
added (new) aquarium water to the coolers and buckets to approximate
aquarium temperature and chemistry. Then after 10-15 minutes, I netted
out the fish and dumped them into the aquarium.

Once the fish were back in the aquarium, I poured the water from the
containers through a large net to filter out plant bits. Then added that
water to the aquarium, and topped up from the tap as necessary.

I placed the tubs etc holding fish on some scrap styrofoam while doing
all this, to minimize cooling from the concrete basement floor around
the aquarium. The whole process of aquarium breakdown and setup took
maybe 3-4 hours, so there was not much cooling of the original water and
the fish.

Steve

Daniel Morrow

May 31st 05, 01:48 AM

"Steve" > wrote in message
.. .
> Gill Passman wrote:
>
> >
> > The bloke in the LFS wondered if it could be temperature fluctuations -
> > we've had some strange weather over the last week or so - ranging from
> > extremely hot to cold or pleasantly warm (around 70F) today. I can't say
> > I've noticed any variations in the tank temp or the other one in that
room.
> > I would expect the tank in the Conservatory to suffer rather than this
one.
> > He sold me something called Liquisil General Tonic (Interpet) that is
> > supposed to reduce "background levels of of bacteria, fungus and
parasites
> > in aquariums" and suggested a small quantity of salt as well. So off to
give
> > it a try along with another water change.
> >
> > Still no sign of symptoms on any of the other fish........
> >
> >
> >
> Hi,
> I've kept fish in a modest way since 1963, with a 10-year break.
>
> I began with W.T. Innes' "Exotic Aquarium Fishes".

I have that book too!

Then, starting the
> hobby again in 1991, I borrowed a book by Stephen Spotte from the
> library (Fish and invertebrate culture : water management in closed
> systems?) that emphasized maintaining water quality through biological
> filtration as a way of reducing stress and avoiding sick fish. Other
> readings agreed with him, for example any issue of Aquarium Fish (they
> never showed a picture of sick fish:)), and Tetra Press' "Aquariology
> master volume one". The Internet, including newsgroups and "The Krib"
> has also became a favourite reference, along with the "Aquarium Atlas"
> by Riehl and Baensch.
>
> Since doing reading such as above, I've tried to avoid medicating
> aquariums. I simply use regular water changes, filtration (keep the old
> media!) and modest stocking levels to manage my aquariums, and things
> generally go well. I will admit to using formalin-based ich medication a
> couple of times, and experimenting with plant nutrient additions.
>
> It's a bit scary, the nasty possiblities ("flexibacter"!!) and harsh
> treatments (Potassium permanganate) that are being suggested, for what
> is likely a maintenance issue. Good, stable water quality and
> temperature seem to be the recipe for successful aquarium keeping, along
> with adequate feeding.
>
> Here's to low-stress, satisfying aqaurium-keeping!
>
> Steve

Daniel Morrow

May 31st 05, 02:25 AM

"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
>
> "Mean_Chlorine" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Thusly "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> Spake Unto
> > All:
> >
> > >The bloke in the LFS wondered if it could be temperature fluctuations -
> >
> > No. Not a chance. Any temperature within the 20C - 30C range is
> > completely acceptable, even long-term, for any species commonly sold
> > as aquarium fish. Regardless of whatever other impression you may have
> > got from books/various sites.
> >
> > >He sold me something called Liquisil General Tonic (Interpet) that is
> > >supposed to reduce "background levels of of bacteria, fungus and
> parasites
> > >in aquariums" and suggested a small quantity of salt as well. So off to
> give
> > >it a try along with another water change.
> >
> > I'm not a big fan of blindly administering medications to aquaria.
> > More often than not they mess up the balance and kill filter bacteria,
> > even if it says on the box they don't.
> >
> > >Still no sign of symptoms on any of the other fish........
> >
> > Well, that's hopeful at least. Viral and bacterial diseases do "burn
> > themselves out" in aquaria, which is fortunate as they rarely respond
> > to medication.
> >
> Agreed. This is why we went for this so called "gentle" tonic option. I
hate
> putting anything in the tanks other than water conditioner and have only
> done so in the past when putting in Ich treatment where I had no choice.
>
> I'm very much watching this space....there were no symptoms on the others
> until it was too late
>
> I think the temp thing was a stab in the dark....he doesn't know either.
We
> have had some wild temperature fluctuations in the UK over the past week
> ranging from early 80F to only hitting above 50F daytime and colder at
> night. But, this is not a tank I would expect to fall foul of this
> especially as there are two tanks in there and the other one is fine. I
> worry constantly about the one in the conservatory but we seem to have the
> temp sussed both in the room and tank.....
>
> I guess it is wait and see....
> Gill
>
>

Hi Gill! I've been reading this thread and really feel sad for you and your
lost loved ones. I hope your son doesn't give up on this hobby. I am rooting
for you and want to say you really have your hobby together good. I think
you've done everything right and that an almost random disease issue is the
problem rather than questioning if you changed the water enough because I
think you change the water good. I have been reading your posts since I
started on this newsgroup and find that you're very intelligent. Good luck
and sincerest best wishes to you and your son and pets, Later!

Dick

May 31st 05, 02:08 PM

On Mon, 30 May 2005 17:28:31 +0100, "Gill Passman"
<gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote:

>
>"Dick" > wrote in message
...
>> On Sun, 29 May 2005 23:27:16 +0100, "Gill Passman"
>> <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Derek Benson" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >> On Sun, 29 May 2005 12:23:31 +0100, "Gill Passman"
>> >> <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >Hi All,
>> >> >This is really a continuation from the Sick Mollie in my son's tank
>and
>> >> >subsequent loss of two Mollies last weekend. I did my normal check
>this
>> >> >morning and now one of the Rosy Barbs is on her way out. Checked the
>> >water
>> >> >pH 8 (normal for our tanks), 0 Ammonia and Nitrites and Nitrates are
>at
>> >5.
>> >> >
>> >> >No new fish added for months. Tank has been running since last August.
>> >> >
>> >> >Tank is around 15UK galls. Current occupants are 1 mollie and 4 Rosy
>> >Barbs
>> >> >(around 10 inches of fish maximum). Plenty of plants. Water changes
>are
>> >> >weekly 20-30%. We've had very few problems with this tank until now.
>> >> >
>> >> >I just can't figure out what is going on here or what to do next. If
>the
>> >> >remaining Rosy Barbs would be OK with Gouramis I suppose I could move
>> >them
>> >> >and then strip down the tank - this is the only thing I can think of
>for
>> >> >now. But I hesitate because I don't want to risk infecting any of the
>> >other
>> >> >fish in the other tanks.
>> >> >
>> >> >Does anyone have any clues as to what might be happening or what I can
>do
>> >> >next to keep the remaining fish?
>> >> >
>> >> >Thanks
>> >> >Gill
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> If I try to rule out causes of death based on your info and the info
>> >> you've given to others: It doesn't appear to be a common parasite like
>> >> Ich, or velvet because you see these on the fish. Internal parasites,
>> >> worms or flagellates or whatever will usually show symptoms of the
>> >> fish getting thinner, wasting away, the feces might be weird, white
>> >> and stringy or no feces at all from the fish. So I rule out all of
>> >> these.
>> >>
>> >> I rule out poisoning be it from ammonia or nitrate or metals or
>> >> something weird gotten into the tank because the fish should show
>> >> signs of poisoning: breathing faster, panting at the surface or at the
>> >> bottom of the tank.
>> >>
>> >> So what's left? I think your pH is a bit high, but if others want to
>> >> say that it's fine for these fish I'll take their word for it. I don't
>> >> pay much attention to pH anymore because where I live it's 7.0 out of
>> >> the tap.
>> >>
>> >> If it's bacterial in nature as Elaine suggests, the way it works, as I
>> >> understand it, is more or less like this. These bacteria which can
>> >> cause illness, Aeromonas or Mycobacterium or whatever their names are,
>> >> will always be present in your tank just like the bacteria you want in
>> >> the tank, the species which break down the ammonia and nitrites. These
>> >> evil bacteria will grow in numbers if the tank is generally not clean
>> >> enough. Keep these numbers down by vacuuming gravel and changing water
>> >> more frequently and diluting out the little buggers. The gravel in
>> >> this tank is vacuumed all the way to the bottom glass of the tank? I
>> >> ask because I think these bacteria live and multiply down there where
>> >> there is less oxygen in the water surrounding the gravel.
>> >>
>> >> If this is a bacteria problem, I don't think these fish in the tank
>> >> will infect fish in other tanks. The bacteria in question are already
>> >> in the other tanks in certain numbers anyway. I think what I would do
>> >> is move all the fish in with the gouramis, and tear down this tank
>> >> completely and start it over. If you decide to do this, after you
>> >> remove fish and plants pour in some chlorine bleach and stir up the
>> >> gravel and wash it out the following day. Everything will be
>> >> killed/disinfected by the bleach.
>> >>
>> >> -Derek
>> >
>> >What you are saying is making total sense....apart from a slight question
>> >mark over a certain nephew deciding to over feed...I cannot think of
>> >anything else (he was here a few days before the Mollie decline and again
>a
>> >couple of days ago). The gravel in this tank is not what I have in the
>> >others - it is more a pea gravel rather than the finer stuff I normally
>have
>> >so harder to vaccum....maybe there is something trapped in there - like
>> >Hydrogen Sulphide.....
>> >
>> >My son comes back tomorrow from his Dad's....he is already disallusioned
>and
>> >thinking of giving up fish keeping based on the recent deaths....I hope I
>> >can keep him hanging in there....he truly did love it....
>> >
>> >Gill
>> >
>>
>> If he was of the age, would you keep an ex girl friend around because
>> he once really liked her? Why not keep the tank for your own interest
>> and let him move on? In my fast growing years (as in height) I moved
>> through many interests. Here I am 60 years later picking up on one of
>> those interests.
>>
>> dick
>
>I totally agree with you. I had a word with him about his tanks and
>suggested even consolidating them into just one tank to make the maintenance
>easier for him (me in reality). The answer I got was "you're just after one
>of my tanks". He wants to keep going he's just fed up with losing the fish -
>and I can't say that I blame him.
>
>Here's hoping for happier times
>Gill
>

How about buying a new tank to replace the jinx, then you could
experiment to your heart's desire and boy luv would have the
excitement of setting up a new tank? (It is exciting setting up a new
tank, isn't it? Well, it can be if the recent experience has robbed
him of its joy.)

dick

Gill Passman

May 31st 05, 10:34 PM

"Daniel Morrow" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
> .. .
> >
> > "Mean_Chlorine" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Thusly "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> Spake Unto
> > > All:
> > >
> > > >The bloke in the LFS wondered if it could be temperature
fluctuations -
> > >
> > > No. Not a chance. Any temperature within the 20C - 30C range is
> > > completely acceptable, even long-term, for any species commonly sold
> > > as aquarium fish. Regardless of whatever other impression you may have
> > > got from books/various sites.
> > >
> > > >He sold me something called Liquisil General Tonic (Interpet) that is
> > > >supposed to reduce "background levels of of bacteria, fungus and
> > parasites
> > > >in aquariums" and suggested a small quantity of salt as well. So off
to
> > give
> > > >it a try along with another water change.
> > >
> > > I'm not a big fan of blindly administering medications to aquaria.
> > > More often than not they mess up the balance and kill filter bacteria,
> > > even if it says on the box they don't.
> > >
> > > >Still no sign of symptoms on any of the other fish........
> > >
> > > Well, that's hopeful at least. Viral and bacterial diseases do "burn
> > > themselves out" in aquaria, which is fortunate as they rarely respond
> > > to medication.
> > >
> > Agreed. This is why we went for this so called "gentle" tonic option. I
> hate
> > putting anything in the tanks other than water conditioner and have only
> > done so in the past when putting in Ich treatment where I had no choice.
> >
> > I'm very much watching this space....there were no symptoms on the
others
> > until it was too late
> >
> > I think the temp thing was a stab in the dark....he doesn't know either.
> We
> > have had some wild temperature fluctuations in the UK over the past week
> > ranging from early 80F to only hitting above 50F daytime and colder at
> > night. But, this is not a tank I would expect to fall foul of this
> > especially as there are two tanks in there and the other one is fine. I
> > worry constantly about the one in the conservatory but we seem to have
the
> > temp sussed both in the room and tank.....
> >
> > I guess it is wait and see....
> > Gill
> >
> >
>
> Hi Gill! I've been reading this thread and really feel sad for you and
your
> lost loved ones. I hope your son doesn't give up on this hobby. I am
rooting
> for you and want to say you really have your hobby together good. I think
> you've done everything right and that an almost random disease issue is
the
> problem rather than questioning if you changed the water enough because I
> think you change the water good. I have been reading your posts since I
> started on this newsgroup and find that you're very intelligent. Good luck
> and sincerest best wishes to you and your son and pets, Later!
>
>
Hi Daniel,
Thanks for your very kind posting. I showed it to Matthew and he very much
appreciated it as well :-)

Unfortunately we lost another barb this morning :-( I haven't been able to
do anything tonight as I didn't get home from work until about an hour
ago.....but we do now have an action plan which brightened Matt up.

We are going to do some fish shifting. The 5 gall in the kitchen currently
holds 2 platy fry (my Betta's buddies), the Betta and 3 otos. The otos will
move to my main community tank where I already have 3 who are doing such a
fantastic cleaning job I've been thinking of buying more anyway. The Betta
and the 2 Platys will move into Matthew's 30gall tank for the short-term (I
don't want the Betta permanently out of the kitchen as I've grown so fond of
him).....it is a very gentle tank the most agressive fish in there being two
pearl gouramis who have little time for anyone other than eachother.
Providing the remaining two barbs and mollie keep on going - they will go
into the 5 gall where I can keep an eye on them better.

The tank itself will be stripped down and bleached. All plants and substrate
will go. Even the filter will be sacrificed - I will start cycling a similar
filter which I just happen to have around in one of the other tanks. We are
then off on a shopping trip for him to select the substrate, plants and
decor for his revamped tank (on my plastic). We will then reavaluate the
location of fish, depending on the survival rate of the 3 remaining fish and
set the tank up as if it was new.

I really hope the remaining 3 make it....they looked good tonight - the male
Barb was chasing his remaining woman and the Mollie was just looking for
food. But then they always look good the night before.....I hope the one day
delay doesn't result in bad news but I could do nothing about that.....

Hope my plan works....

Thanks again
Gill

Gill Passman

May 31st 05, 10:46 PM

"Dick" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 30 May 2005 17:28:31 +0100, "Gill Passman"
> <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Dick" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> On Sun, 29 May 2005 23:27:16 +0100, "Gill Passman"
> >> <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >"Derek Benson" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> >> On Sun, 29 May 2005 12:23:31 +0100, "Gill Passman"
> >> >> <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >Hi All,
> >> >> >This is really a continuation from the Sick Mollie in my son's tank
> >and
> >> >> >subsequent loss of two Mollies last weekend. I did my normal check
> >this
> >> >> >morning and now one of the Rosy Barbs is on her way out. Checked
the
> >> >water
> >> >> >pH 8 (normal for our tanks), 0 Ammonia and Nitrites and Nitrates
are
> >at
> >> >5.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >No new fish added for months. Tank has been running since last
August.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Tank is around 15UK galls. Current occupants are 1 mollie and 4
Rosy
> >> >Barbs
> >> >> >(around 10 inches of fish maximum). Plenty of plants. Water changes
> >are
> >> >> >weekly 20-30%. We've had very few problems with this tank until
now.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >I just can't figure out what is going on here or what to do next.
If
> >the
> >> >> >remaining Rosy Barbs would be OK with Gouramis I suppose I could
move
> >> >them
> >> >> >and then strip down the tank - this is the only thing I can think
of
> >for
> >> >> >now. But I hesitate because I don't want to risk infecting any of
the
> >> >other
> >> >> >fish in the other tanks.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Does anyone have any clues as to what might be happening or what I
can
> >do
> >> >> >next to keep the remaining fish?
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Thanks
> >> >> >Gill
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> If I try to rule out causes of death based on your info and the info
> >> >> you've given to others: It doesn't appear to be a common parasite
like
> >> >> Ich, or velvet because you see these on the fish. Internal
parasites,
> >> >> worms or flagellates or whatever will usually show symptoms of the
> >> >> fish getting thinner, wasting away, the feces might be weird, white
> >> >> and stringy or no feces at all from the fish. So I rule out all of
> >> >> these.
> >> >>
> >> >> I rule out poisoning be it from ammonia or nitrate or metals or
> >> >> something weird gotten into the tank because the fish should show
> >> >> signs of poisoning: breathing faster, panting at the surface or at
the
> >> >> bottom of the tank.
> >> >>
> >> >> So what's left? I think your pH is a bit high, but if others want to
> >> >> say that it's fine for these fish I'll take their word for it. I
don't
> >> >> pay much attention to pH anymore because where I live it's 7.0 out
of
> >> >> the tap.
> >> >>
> >> >> If it's bacterial in nature as Elaine suggests, the way it works, as
I
> >> >> understand it, is more or less like this. These bacteria which can
> >> >> cause illness, Aeromonas or Mycobacterium or whatever their names
are,
> >> >> will always be present in your tank just like the bacteria you want
in
> >> >> the tank, the species which break down the ammonia and nitrites.
These
> >> >> evil bacteria will grow in numbers if the tank is generally not
clean
> >> >> enough. Keep these numbers down by vacuuming gravel and changing
water
> >> >> more frequently and diluting out the little buggers. The gravel in
> >> >> this tank is vacuumed all the way to the bottom glass of the tank? I
> >> >> ask because I think these bacteria live and multiply down there
where
> >> >> there is less oxygen in the water surrounding the gravel.
> >> >>
> >> >> If this is a bacteria problem, I don't think these fish in the tank
> >> >> will infect fish in other tanks. The bacteria in question are
already
> >> >> in the other tanks in certain numbers anyway. I think what I would
do
> >> >> is move all the fish in with the gouramis, and tear down this tank
> >> >> completely and start it over. If you decide to do this, after you
> >> >> remove fish and plants pour in some chlorine bleach and stir up the
> >> >> gravel and wash it out the following day. Everything will be
> >> >> killed/disinfected by the bleach.
> >> >>
> >> >> -Derek
> >> >
> >> >What you are saying is making total sense....apart from a slight
question
> >> >mark over a certain nephew deciding to over feed...I cannot think of
> >> >anything else (he was here a few days before the Mollie decline and
again
> >a
> >> >couple of days ago). The gravel in this tank is not what I have in the
> >> >others - it is more a pea gravel rather than the finer stuff I
normally
> >have
> >> >so harder to vaccum....maybe there is something trapped in there -
like
> >> >Hydrogen Sulphide.....
> >> >
> >> >My son comes back tomorrow from his Dad's....he is already
disallusioned
> >and
> >> >thinking of giving up fish keeping based on the recent deaths....I
hope I
> >> >can keep him hanging in there....he truly did love it....
> >> >
> >> >Gill
> >> >
> >>
> >> If he was of the age, would you keep an ex girl friend around because
> >> he once really liked her? Why not keep the tank for your own interest
> >> and let him move on? In my fast growing years (as in height) I moved
> >> through many interests. Here I am 60 years later picking up on one of
> >> those interests.
> >>
> >> dick
> >
> >I totally agree with you. I had a word with him about his tanks and
> >suggested even consolidating them into just one tank to make the
maintenance
> >easier for him (me in reality). The answer I got was "you're just after
one
> >of my tanks". He wants to keep going he's just fed up with losing the
fish -
> >and I can't say that I blame him.
> >
> >Here's hoping for happier times
> >Gill
> >
>
> How about buying a new tank to replace the jinx, then you could
> experiment to your heart's desire and boy luv would have the
> excitement of setting up a new tank? (It is exciting setting up a new
> tank, isn't it? Well, it can be if the recent experience has robbed
> him of its joy.)
>
> dick

I've come up with a way of decomissioning the tank that should not
compromise anyones safety - although I will lose my Betta from the Kitchen
to another tank for a few days.

Providing we have no more losses before tomorrow night - lost another Barb
this morning :-( I will put the plan in action tomorrow when I get back from
work.

We will then tear down this "jinx tank" and start it all over.....I have a
pump/filter hanging about that is the same size which I will start cycling
in one of the "healthy" tanks as soon as I can remember where I put it.

Matt is quite excited about starting the tank again.....so here is hoping.
He's been promised a trip with my "plastic" to refurb it. Afterall it was
his fault I got into this hobby in the first place :-)

Gill

Daniel Morrow

June 1st 05, 02:07 AM

"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
>
> "Daniel Morrow" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
> > .. .
> > >
> > > "Mean_Chlorine" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > Thusly "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> Spake Unto
> > > > All:
> > > >
> > > > >The bloke in the LFS wondered if it could be temperature
> fluctuations -
> > > >
> > > > No. Not a chance. Any temperature within the 20C - 30C range is
> > > > completely acceptable, even long-term, for any species commonly sold
> > > > as aquarium fish. Regardless of whatever other impression you may
have
> > > > got from books/various sites.
> > > >
> > > > >He sold me something called Liquisil General Tonic (Interpet) that
is
> > > > >supposed to reduce "background levels of of bacteria, fungus and
> > > parasites
> > > > >in aquariums" and suggested a small quantity of salt as well. So
off
> to
> > > give
> > > > >it a try along with another water change.
> > > >
> > > > I'm not a big fan of blindly administering medications to aquaria.
> > > > More often than not they mess up the balance and kill filter
bacteria,
> > > > even if it says on the box they don't.
> > > >
> > > > >Still no sign of symptoms on any of the other fish........
> > > >
> > > > Well, that's hopeful at least. Viral and bacterial diseases do "burn
> > > > themselves out" in aquaria, which is fortunate as they rarely
respond
> > > > to medication.
> > > >
> > > Agreed. This is why we went for this so called "gentle" tonic option.
I
> > hate
> > > putting anything in the tanks other than water conditioner and have
only
> > > done so in the past when putting in Ich treatment where I had no
choice.
> > >
> > > I'm very much watching this space....there were no symptoms on the
> others
> > > until it was too late
> > >
> > > I think the temp thing was a stab in the dark....he doesn't know
either.
> > We
> > > have had some wild temperature fluctuations in the UK over the past
week
> > > ranging from early 80F to only hitting above 50F daytime and colder at
> > > night. But, this is not a tank I would expect to fall foul of this
> > > especially as there are two tanks in there and the other one is fine.
I
> > > worry constantly about the one in the conservatory but we seem to have
> the
> > > temp sussed both in the room and tank.....
> > >
> > > I guess it is wait and see....
> > > Gill
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Hi Gill! I've been reading this thread and really feel sad for you and
> your
> > lost loved ones. I hope your son doesn't give up on this hobby. I am
> rooting
> > for you and want to say you really have your hobby together good. I
think
> > you've done everything right and that an almost random disease issue is
> the
> > problem rather than questioning if you changed the water enough because
I
> > think you change the water good. I have been reading your posts since I
> > started on this newsgroup and find that you're very intelligent. Good
luck
> > and sincerest best wishes to you and your son and pets, Later!
> >
> >
> Hi Daniel,
> Thanks for your very kind posting. I showed it to Matthew and he very much
> appreciated it as well :-)
>
> Unfortunately we lost another barb this morning :-( I haven't been able
to
> do anything tonight as I didn't get home from work until about an hour
> ago.....but we do now have an action plan which brightened Matt up.
>
> We are going to do some fish shifting. The 5 gall in the kitchen currently
> holds 2 platy fry (my Betta's buddies), the Betta and 3 otos. The otos
will
> move to my main community tank where I already have 3 who are doing such a
> fantastic cleaning job I've been thinking of buying more anyway. The Betta
> and the 2 Platys will move into Matthew's 30gall tank for the short-term
(I
> don't want the Betta permanently out of the kitchen as I've grown so fond
of
> him).....it is a very gentle tank the most agressive fish in there being
two
> pearl gouramis who have little time for anyone other than eachother.
> Providing the remaining two barbs and mollie keep on going - they will go
> into the 5 gall where I can keep an eye on them better.
>
> The tank itself will be stripped down and bleached. All plants and
substrate
> will go. Even the filter will be sacrificed - I will start cycling a
similar
> filter which I just happen to have around in one of the other tanks. We
are
> then off on a shopping trip for him to select the substrate, plants and
> decor for his revamped tank (on my plastic). We will then reavaluate the
> location of fish, depending on the survival rate of the 3 remaining fish
and
> set the tank up as if it was new.
>
> I really hope the remaining 3 make it....they looked good tonight - the
male
> Barb was chasing his remaining woman and the Mollie was just looking for
> food. But then they always look good the night before.....I hope the one
day
> delay doesn't result in bad news but I could do nothing about that.....
>
> Hope my plan works....
>
> Thanks again
> Gill
>

Your welcome Gill! Good fortune to you!

>

Dick

June 1st 05, 10:24 AM

On Tue, 31 May 2005 22:46:39 +0100, "Gill Passman"
<gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote:

>
>"Dick" > wrote in message
...
>> On Mon, 30 May 2005 17:28:31 +0100, "Gill Passman"
>> <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Dick" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >> On Sun, 29 May 2005 23:27:16 +0100, "Gill Passman"
>> >> <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >"Derek Benson" > wrote in message
>> >> ...
>> >> >> On Sun, 29 May 2005 12:23:31 +0100, "Gill Passman"
>> >> >> <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >Hi All,
>> >> >> >This is really a continuation from the Sick Mollie in my son's tank
>> >and
>> >> >> >subsequent loss of two Mollies last weekend. I did my normal check
>> >this
>> >> >> >morning and now one of the Rosy Barbs is on her way out. Checked
>the
>> >> >water
>> >> >> >pH 8 (normal for our tanks), 0 Ammonia and Nitrites and Nitrates
>are
>> >at
>> >> >5.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >No new fish added for months. Tank has been running since last
>August.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >Tank is around 15UK galls. Current occupants are 1 mollie and 4
>Rosy
>> >> >Barbs
>> >> >> >(around 10 inches of fish maximum). Plenty of plants. Water changes
>> >are
>> >> >> >weekly 20-30%. We've had very few problems with this tank until
>now.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >I just can't figure out what is going on here or what to do next.
>If
>> >the
>> >> >> >remaining Rosy Barbs would be OK with Gouramis I suppose I could
>move
>> >> >them
>> >> >> >and then strip down the tank - this is the only thing I can think
>of
>> >for
>> >> >> >now. But I hesitate because I don't want to risk infecting any of
>the
>> >> >other
>> >> >> >fish in the other tanks.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >Does anyone have any clues as to what might be happening or what I
>can
>> >do
>> >> >> >next to keep the remaining fish?
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >Thanks
>> >> >> >Gill
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> If I try to rule out causes of death based on your info and the info
>> >> >> you've given to others: It doesn't appear to be a common parasite
>like
>> >> >> Ich, or velvet because you see these on the fish. Internal
>parasites,
>> >> >> worms or flagellates or whatever will usually show symptoms of the
>> >> >> fish getting thinner, wasting away, the feces might be weird, white
>> >> >> and stringy or no feces at all from the fish. So I rule out all of
>> >> >> these.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I rule out poisoning be it from ammonia or nitrate or metals or
>> >> >> something weird gotten into the tank because the fish should show
>> >> >> signs of poisoning: breathing faster, panting at the surface or at
>the
>> >> >> bottom of the tank.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> So what's left? I think your pH is a bit high, but if others want to
>> >> >> say that it's fine for these fish I'll take their word for it. I
>don't
>> >> >> pay much attention to pH anymore because where I live it's 7.0 out
>of
>> >> >> the tap.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> If it's bacterial in nature as Elaine suggests, the way it works, as
>I
>> >> >> understand it, is more or less like this. These bacteria which can
>> >> >> cause illness, Aeromonas or Mycobacterium or whatever their names
>are,
>> >> >> will always be present in your tank just like the bacteria you want
>in
>> >> >> the tank, the species which break down the ammonia and nitrites.
>These
>> >> >> evil bacteria will grow in numbers if the tank is generally not
>clean
>> >> >> enough. Keep these numbers down by vacuuming gravel and changing
>water
>> >> >> more frequently and diluting out the little buggers. The gravel in
>> >> >> this tank is vacuumed all the way to the bottom glass of the tank? I
>> >> >> ask because I think these bacteria live and multiply down there
>where
>> >> >> there is less oxygen in the water surrounding the gravel.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> If this is a bacteria problem, I don't think these fish in the tank
>> >> >> will infect fish in other tanks. The bacteria in question are
>already
>> >> >> in the other tanks in certain numbers anyway. I think what I would
>do
>> >> >> is move all the fish in with the gouramis, and tear down this tank
>> >> >> completely and start it over. If you decide to do this, after you
>> >> >> remove fish and plants pour in some chlorine bleach and stir up the
>> >> >> gravel and wash it out the following day. Everything will be
>> >> >> killed/disinfected by the bleach.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> -Derek
>> >> >
>> >> >What you are saying is making total sense....apart from a slight
>question
>> >> >mark over a certain nephew deciding to over feed...I cannot think of
>> >> >anything else (he was here a few days before the Mollie decline and
>again
>> >a
>> >> >couple of days ago). The gravel in this tank is not what I have in the
>> >> >others - it is more a pea gravel rather than the finer stuff I
>normally
>> >have
>> >> >so harder to vaccum....maybe there is something trapped in there -
>like
>> >> >Hydrogen Sulphide.....
>> >> >
>> >> >My son comes back tomorrow from his Dad's....he is already
>disallusioned
>> >and
>> >> >thinking of giving up fish keeping based on the recent deaths....I
>hope I
>> >> >can keep him hanging in there....he truly did love it....
>> >> >
>> >> >Gill
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> If he was of the age, would you keep an ex girl friend around because
>> >> he once really liked her? Why not keep the tank for your own interest
>> >> and let him move on? In my fast growing years (as in height) I moved
>> >> through many interests. Here I am 60 years later picking up on one of
>> >> those interests.
>> >>
>> >> dick
>> >
>> >I totally agree with you. I had a word with him about his tanks and
>> >suggested even consolidating them into just one tank to make the
>maintenance
>> >easier for him (me in reality). The answer I got was "you're just after
>one
>> >of my tanks". He wants to keep going he's just fed up with losing the
>fish -
>> >and I can't say that I blame him.
>> >
>> >Here's hoping for happier times
>> >Gill
>> >
>>
>> How about buying a new tank to replace the jinx, then you could
>> experiment to your heart's desire and boy luv would have the
>> excitement of setting up a new tank? (It is exciting setting up a new
>> tank, isn't it? Well, it can be if the recent experience has robbed
>> him of its joy.)
>>
>> dick
>
>I've come up with a way of decomissioning the tank that should not
>compromise anyones safety - although I will lose my Betta from the Kitchen
>to another tank for a few days.
>
>Providing we have no more losses before tomorrow night - lost another Barb
>this morning :-( I will put the plan in action tomorrow when I get back from
>work.
>
>We will then tear down this "jinx tank" and start it all over.....I have a
>pump/filter hanging about that is the same size which I will start cycling
>in one of the "healthy" tanks as soon as I can remember where I put it.
>
>Matt is quite excited about starting the tank again.....so here is hoping.
>He's been promised a trip with my "plastic" to refurb it. Afterall it was
>his fault I got into this hobby in the first place :-)
>
>Gill
>

I have my fingers crossed. Action plans are good! Excitement is good!
Doing together is good! Losses are bad! :- ( Trip with plastic is
fun!

Hooray for Matt! He helped you find this wonderful way to spend time
and money and to share with each other.

I have a motorhome. After one bad trip, lots of things went wrong, I
told a friend, moaning about all the bad events. He responded that it
is great to have problems, they make for interesting tales. Easy
trips are not talked about or remembered.

dick

dick

Gill Passman

June 1st 05, 07:30 PM

"Dick" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 31 May 2005 22:46:39 +0100, "Gill Passman"
> <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Dick" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> On Mon, 30 May 2005 17:28:31 +0100, "Gill Passman"
> >> <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >"Dick" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> >> On Sun, 29 May 2005 23:27:16 +0100, "Gill Passman"
> >> >> <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >"Derek Benson" > wrote in message
> >> >> ...
> >> >> >> On Sun, 29 May 2005 12:23:31 +0100, "Gill Passman"
> >> >> >> <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >Hi All,
> >> >> >> >This is really a continuation from the Sick Mollie in my son's
tank
> >> >and
> >> >> >> >subsequent loss of two Mollies last weekend. I did my normal
check
> >> >this
> >> >> >> >morning and now one of the Rosy Barbs is on her way out. Checked
> >the
> >> >> >water
> >> >> >> >pH 8 (normal for our tanks), 0 Ammonia and Nitrites and Nitrates
> >are
> >> >at
> >> >> >5.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >No new fish added for months. Tank has been running since last
> >August.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >Tank is around 15UK galls. Current occupants are 1 mollie and 4
> >Rosy
> >> >> >Barbs
> >> >> >> >(around 10 inches of fish maximum). Plenty of plants. Water
changes
> >> >are
> >> >> >> >weekly 20-30%. We've had very few problems with this tank until
> >now.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >I just can't figure out what is going on here or what to do
next.
> >If
> >> >the
> >> >> >> >remaining Rosy Barbs would be OK with Gouramis I suppose I could
> >move
> >> >> >them
> >> >> >> >and then strip down the tank - this is the only thing I can
think
> >of
> >> >for
> >> >> >> >now. But I hesitate because I don't want to risk infecting any
of
> >the
> >> >> >other
> >> >> >> >fish in the other tanks.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >Does anyone have any clues as to what might be happening or what
I
> >can
> >> >do
> >> >> >> >next to keep the remaining fish?
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >Thanks
> >> >> >> >Gill
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> If I try to rule out causes of death based on your info and the
info
> >> >> >> you've given to others: It doesn't appear to be a common parasite
> >like
> >> >> >> Ich, or velvet because you see these on the fish. Internal
> >parasites,
> >> >> >> worms or flagellates or whatever will usually show symptoms of
the
> >> >> >> fish getting thinner, wasting away, the feces might be weird,
white
> >> >> >> and stringy or no feces at all from the fish. So I rule out all
of
> >> >> >> these.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> I rule out poisoning be it from ammonia or nitrate or metals or
> >> >> >> something weird gotten into the tank because the fish should show
> >> >> >> signs of poisoning: breathing faster, panting at the surface or
at
> >the
> >> >> >> bottom of the tank.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> So what's left? I think your pH is a bit high, but if others want
to
> >> >> >> say that it's fine for these fish I'll take their word for it. I
> >don't
> >> >> >> pay much attention to pH anymore because where I live it's 7.0
out
> >of
> >> >> >> the tap.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> If it's bacterial in nature as Elaine suggests, the way it works,
as
> >I
> >> >> >> understand it, is more or less like this. These bacteria which
can
> >> >> >> cause illness, Aeromonas or Mycobacterium or whatever their names
> >are,
> >> >> >> will always be present in your tank just like the bacteria you
want
> >in
> >> >> >> the tank, the species which break down the ammonia and nitrites.
> >These
> >> >> >> evil bacteria will grow in numbers if the tank is generally not
> >clean
> >> >> >> enough. Keep these numbers down by vacuuming gravel and changing
> >water
> >> >> >> more frequently and diluting out the little buggers. The gravel
in
> >> >> >> this tank is vacuumed all the way to the bottom glass of the
tank? I
> >> >> >> ask because I think these bacteria live and multiply down there
> >where
> >> >> >> there is less oxygen in the water surrounding the gravel.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> If this is a bacteria problem, I don't think these fish in the
tank
> >> >> >> will infect fish in other tanks. The bacteria in question are
> >already
> >> >> >> in the other tanks in certain numbers anyway. I think what I
would
> >do
> >> >> >> is move all the fish in with the gouramis, and tear down this
tank
> >> >> >> completely and start it over. If you decide to do this, after you
> >> >> >> remove fish and plants pour in some chlorine bleach and stir up
the
> >> >> >> gravel and wash it out the following day. Everything will be
> >> >> >> killed/disinfected by the bleach.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> -Derek
> >> >> >
> >> >> >What you are saying is making total sense....apart from a slight
> >question
> >> >> >mark over a certain nephew deciding to over feed...I cannot think
of
> >> >> >anything else (he was here a few days before the Mollie decline and
> >again
> >> >a
> >> >> >couple of days ago). The gravel in this tank is not what I have in
the
> >> >> >others - it is more a pea gravel rather than the finer stuff I
> >normally
> >> >have
> >> >> >so harder to vaccum....maybe there is something trapped in there -
> >like
> >> >> >Hydrogen Sulphide.....
> >> >> >
> >> >> >My son comes back tomorrow from his Dad's....he is already
> >disallusioned
> >> >and
> >> >> >thinking of giving up fish keeping based on the recent deaths....I
> >hope I
> >> >> >can keep him hanging in there....he truly did love it....
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Gill
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> If he was of the age, would you keep an ex girl friend around
because
> >> >> he once really liked her? Why not keep the tank for your own
interest
> >> >> and let him move on? In my fast growing years (as in height) I
moved
> >> >> through many interests. Here I am 60 years later picking up on one
of
> >> >> those interests.
> >> >>
> >> >> dick
> >> >
> >> >I totally agree with you. I had a word with him about his tanks and
> >> >suggested even consolidating them into just one tank to make the
> >maintenance
> >> >easier for him (me in reality). The answer I got was "you're just
after
> >one
> >> >of my tanks". He wants to keep going he's just fed up with losing the
> >fish -
> >> >and I can't say that I blame him.
> >> >
> >> >Here's hoping for happier times
> >> >Gill
> >> >
> >>
> >> How about buying a new tank to replace the jinx, then you could
> >> experiment to your heart's desire and boy luv would have the
> >> excitement of setting up a new tank? (It is exciting setting up a new
> >> tank, isn't it? Well, it can be if the recent experience has robbed
> >> him of its joy.)
> >>
> >> dick
> >
> >I've come up with a way of decomissioning the tank that should not
> >compromise anyones safety - although I will lose my Betta from the
Kitchen
> >to another tank for a few days.
> >
> >Providing we have no more losses before tomorrow night - lost another
Barb
> >this morning :-( I will put the plan in action tomorrow when I get back
from
> >work.
> >
> >We will then tear down this "jinx tank" and start it all over.....I have
a
> >pump/filter hanging about that is the same size which I will start
cycling
> >in one of the "healthy" tanks as soon as I can remember where I put it.
> >
> >Matt is quite excited about starting the tank again.....so here is
hoping.
> >He's been promised a trip with my "plastic" to refurb it. Afterall it was
> >his fault I got into this hobby in the first place :-)
> >
> >Gill
> >
>
> I have my fingers crossed. Action plans are good! Excitement is good!
> Doing together is good! Losses are bad! :- ( Trip with plastic is
> fun!
>
> Hooray for Matt! He helped you find this wonderful way to spend time
> and money and to share with each other.
>
> I have a motorhome. After one bad trip, lots of things went wrong, I
> told a friend, moaning about all the bad events. He responded that it
> is great to have problems, they make for interesting tales. Easy
> trips are not talked about or remembered.
>
> dick
>
>
>
> dick

It has to be said that I never considered how much fish would open up the
world of communication outside of my own circle of friends - this is another
plus :-)

On the downside I lost one of my Rusty cichlids today (and actually a yellow
lab last week) - the difference with those losses is I know why they died
(the yellow lab never grew and got thinner) the Rusty had become quite
chubby like she had a lot of eggs and from the look of her it could have
been a spawning incident - either that or she was bloated or had
parasites.... I guess it has just been a very bad fish fortnight :-(

On the plus side the two Rosy Barbs and one remaining Mollie are looking
fine for now - action plan still in place I will get them moved asap. The 3
fry in the Malawi tank are around 1cm big now...and I can almost identify
one of them from it's markings....my main community tank is finally doing
well with the algae war (unlike the Malawi that I have to clean 3 times a
week at the moment - don't think it worries the fish though). And yes, Matt
is excited about his new venture. Pluses outweigh the negatives but it is
still hard to lose fish without understanding why...

Gill

Gill Passman

June 1st 05, 10:04 PM

"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
>
> "Elaine T" > wrote in message
> . com...
> > Derek Benson wrote:
> > > On Sun, 29 May 2005 12:23:31 +0100, "Gill Passman"
> > > <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >>Hi All,
> > >>This is really a continuation from the Sick Mollie in my son's tank
and
> > >>subsequent loss of two Mollies last weekend. I did my normal check
this
> > >>morning and now one of the Rosy Barbs is on her way out. Checked the
> water
> > >>pH 8 (normal for our tanks), 0 Ammonia and Nitrites and Nitrates are
at
> 5.
> > >>
> > >>No new fish added for months. Tank has been running since last August.
> > >>
> > >>Tank is around 15UK galls. Current occupants are 1 mollie and 4 Rosy
> Barbs
> > >>(around 10 inches of fish maximum). Plenty of plants. Water changes
are
> > >>weekly 20-30%. We've had very few problems with this tank until now.
> > >>
> > >>I just can't figure out what is going on here or what to do next. If
the
> > >>remaining Rosy Barbs would be OK with Gouramis I suppose I could move
> them
> > >>and then strip down the tank - this is the only thing I can think of
for
> > >>now. But I hesitate because I don't want to risk infecting any of the
> other
> > >>fish in the other tanks.
> > >>
> > >>Does anyone have any clues as to what might be happening or what I can
> do
> > >>next to keep the remaining fish?
> > >>
> > >>Thanks
> > >>Gill
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > > If I try to rule out causes of death based on your info and the info
> > > you've given to others: It doesn't appear to be a common parasite like
> > > Ich, or velvet because you see these on the fish. Internal parasites,
> > > worms or flagellates or whatever will usually show symptoms of the
> > > fish getting thinner, wasting away, the feces might be weird, white
> > > and stringy or no feces at all from the fish. So I rule out all of
> > > these.
> > >
> > > I rule out poisoning be it from ammonia or nitrate or metals or
> > > something weird gotten into the tank because the fish should show
> > > signs of poisoning: breathing faster, panting at the surface or at the
> > > bottom of the tank.
> > >
> > > So what's left? I think your pH is a bit high, but if others want to
> > > say that it's fine for these fish I'll take their word for it. I don't
> > > pay much attention to pH anymore because where I live it's 7.0 out of
> > > the tap.
> > >
> > > If it's bacterial in nature as Elaine suggests, the way it works, as I
> > > understand it, is more or less like this. These bacteria which can
> > > cause illness, Aeromonas or Mycobacterium or whatever their names are,
> > > will always be present in your tank just like the bacteria you want in
> > > the tank, the species which break down the ammonia and nitrites. These
> > > evil bacteria will grow in numbers if the tank is generally not clean
> > > enough. Keep these numbers down by vacuuming gravel and changing water
> > > more frequently and diluting out the little buggers. The gravel in
> > > this tank is vacuumed all the way to the bottom glass of the tank? I
> > > ask because I think these bacteria live and multiply down there where
> > > there is less oxygen in the water surrounding the gravel.
> > >
> > > If this is a bacteria problem, I don't think these fish in the tank
> > > will infect fish in other tanks. The bacteria in question are already
> > > in the other tanks in certain numbers anyway. I think what I would do
> > > is move all the fish in with the gouramis, and tear down this tank
> > > completely and start it over. If you decide to do this, after you
> > > remove fish and plants pour in some chlorine bleach and stir up the
> > > gravel and wash it out the following day. Everything will be
> > > killed/disinfected by the bleach.
> > >
> > > -Derek
> >
> > I've seen drop-dead-itis caused by particularly virulent forms of
> > flexibacter. It spreads through water or when fish pick at a dead fish,
> > and get an internal infection. As you said, bacteria can be present in
> > tanks and bloom in nutrient rich gravel. The nice thing about the
> > permanganate is that it does a light, fish-friendly oxidation similar to
> > bleach. It will reduce the numbers of bacteria in the tank so the
> > fishes immune systems can fight them off again.
> >
> > You may be right that a tear-down and disinfection is better, using
> > filter media from a different tank to jump-start the filter. It's a lot
> > of work and stress on the fish, and I was hoping that using a light
> > permanganate treatment along with a good cleaning would avoid Gill's
> > having to do that.
> >
> > --
> > Elaine T __
> > http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> > rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com
>
> I ran all of the ideas past Matthew (my son) who owns the tank in
question -
> young but very sensible - reads and researches a lot. He does not want to
> tear down the tank - mainly because he suspects that I might steal it if
he
> does and won't believe any reassurances....
>
> Equally he does not want to move the fish into his 30gall just in case it
is
> anything infectious. (Quite sensible IMO)
>
> We did a 30% change tonight and added salt and Liquisil General Tonic
> (Interpet) which is supposed to tackle "background levels of of bacteria,
> fungus and parasites
> in aquariums"
>
> Permanganate will be the next step.....hopefully we won't lose any more
and
> need to take it (fingers crossed)
>
> Thanks everyone
>
> Gill
>
>
Update...we've had enough...tank gets torn down Friday....

Gill

Gill Passman

June 1st 05, 10:12 PM

"Dick" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 31 May 2005 22:46:39 +0100, "Gill Passman"
> <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Dick" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> On Mon, 30 May 2005 17:28:31 +0100, "Gill Passman"
> >> <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >"Dick" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> >> On Sun, 29 May 2005 23:27:16 +0100, "Gill Passman"
> >> >> <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >"Derek Benson" > wrote in message
> >> >> ...
> >> >> >> On Sun, 29 May 2005 12:23:31 +0100, "Gill Passman"
> >> >> >> <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >Hi All,
> >> >> >> >This is really a continuation from the Sick Mollie in my son's
tank
> >> >and
> >> >> >> >subsequent loss of two Mollies last weekend. I did my normal
check
> >> >this
> >> >> >> >morning and now one of the Rosy Barbs is on her way out. Checked
> >the
> >> >> >water
> >> >> >> >pH 8 (normal for our tanks), 0 Ammonia and Nitrites and Nitrates
> >are
> >> >at
> >> >> >5.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >No new fish added for months. Tank has been running since last
> >August.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >Tank is around 15UK galls. Current occupants are 1 mollie and 4
> >Rosy
> >> >> >Barbs
> >> >> >> >(around 10 inches of fish maximum). Plenty of plants. Water
changes
> >> >are
> >> >> >> >weekly 20-30%. We've had very few problems with this tank until
> >now.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >I just can't figure out what is going on here or what to do
next.
> >If
> >> >the
> >> >> >> >remaining Rosy Barbs would be OK with Gouramis I suppose I could
> >move
> >> >> >them
> >> >> >> >and then strip down the tank - this is the only thing I can
think
> >of
> >> >for
> >> >> >> >now. But I hesitate because I don't want to risk infecting any
of
> >the
> >> >> >other
> >> >> >> >fish in the other tanks.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >Does anyone have any clues as to what might be happening or what
I
> >can
> >> >do
> >> >> >> >next to keep the remaining fish?
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >Thanks
> >> >> >> >Gill
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> If I try to rule out causes of death based on your info and the
info
> >> >> >> you've given to others: It doesn't appear to be a common parasite
> >like
> >> >> >> Ich, or velvet because you see these on the fish. Internal
> >parasites,
> >> >> >> worms or flagellates or whatever will usually show symptoms of
the
> >> >> >> fish getting thinner, wasting away, the feces might be weird,
white
> >> >> >> and stringy or no feces at all from the fish. So I rule out all
of
> >> >> >> these.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> I rule out poisoning be it from ammonia or nitrate or metals or
> >> >> >> something weird gotten into the tank because the fish should show
> >> >> >> signs of poisoning: breathing faster, panting at the surface or
at
> >the
> >> >> >> bottom of the tank.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> So what's left? I think your pH is a bit high, but if others want
to
> >> >> >> say that it's fine for these fish I'll take their word for it. I
> >don't
> >> >> >> pay much attention to pH anymore because where I live it's 7.0
out
> >of
> >> >> >> the tap.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> If it's bacterial in nature as Elaine suggests, the way it works,
as
> >I
> >> >> >> understand it, is more or less like this. These bacteria which
can
> >> >> >> cause illness, Aeromonas or Mycobacterium or whatever their names
> >are,
> >> >> >> will always be present in your tank just like the bacteria you
want
> >in
> >> >> >> the tank, the species which break down the ammonia and nitrites.
> >These
> >> >> >> evil bacteria will grow in numbers if the tank is generally not
> >clean
> >> >> >> enough. Keep these numbers down by vacuuming gravel and changing
> >water
> >> >> >> more frequently and diluting out the little buggers. The gravel
in
> >> >> >> this tank is vacuumed all the way to the bottom glass of the
tank? I
> >> >> >> ask because I think these bacteria live and multiply down there
> >where
> >> >> >> there is less oxygen in the water surrounding the gravel.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> If this is a bacteria problem, I don't think these fish in the
tank
> >> >> >> will infect fish in other tanks. The bacteria in question are
> >already
> >> >> >> in the other tanks in certain numbers anyway. I think what I
would
> >do
> >> >> >> is move all the fish in with the gouramis, and tear down this
tank
> >> >> >> completely and start it over. If you decide to do this, after you
> >> >> >> remove fish and plants pour in some chlorine bleach and stir up
the
> >> >> >> gravel and wash it out the following day. Everything will be
> >> >> >> killed/disinfected by the bleach.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> -Derek
> >> >> >
> >> >> >What you are saying is making total sense....apart from a slight
> >question
> >> >> >mark over a certain nephew deciding to over feed...I cannot think
of
> >> >> >anything else (he was here a few days before the Mollie decline and
> >again
> >> >a
> >> >> >couple of days ago). The gravel in this tank is not what I have in
the
> >> >> >others - it is more a pea gravel rather than the finer stuff I
> >normally
> >> >have
> >> >> >so harder to vaccum....maybe there is something trapped in there -
> >like
> >> >> >Hydrogen Sulphide.....
> >> >> >
> >> >> >My son comes back tomorrow from his Dad's....he is already
> >disallusioned
> >> >and
> >> >> >thinking of giving up fish keeping based on the recent deaths....I
> >hope I
> >> >> >can keep him hanging in there....he truly did love it....
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Gill
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> If he was of the age, would you keep an ex girl friend around
because
> >> >> he once really liked her? Why not keep the tank for your own
interest
> >> >> and let him move on? In my fast growing years (as in height) I
moved
> >> >> through many interests. Here I am 60 years later picking up on one
of
> >> >> those interests.
> >> >>
> >> >> dick
> >> >
> >> >I totally agree with you. I had a word with him about his tanks and
> >> >suggested even consolidating them into just one tank to make the
> >maintenance
> >> >easier for him (me in reality). The answer I got was "you're just
after
> >one
> >> >of my tanks". He wants to keep going he's just fed up with losing the
> >fish -
> >> >and I can't say that I blame him.
> >> >
> >> >Here's hoping for happier times
> >> >Gill
> >> >
> >>
> >> How about buying a new tank to replace the jinx, then you could
> >> experiment to your heart's desire and boy luv would have the
> >> excitement of setting up a new tank? (It is exciting setting up a new
> >> tank, isn't it? Well, it can be if the recent experience has robbed
> >> him of its joy.)
> >>
> >> dick
> >
> >I've come up with a way of decomissioning the tank that should not
> >compromise anyones safety - although I will lose my Betta from the
Kitchen
> >to another tank for a few days.
> >
> >Providing we have no more losses before tomorrow night - lost another
Barb
> >this morning :-( I will put the plan in action tomorrow when I get back
from
> >work.
> >
> >We will then tear down this "jinx tank" and start it all over.....I have
a
> >pump/filter hanging about that is the same size which I will start
cycling
> >in one of the "healthy" tanks as soon as I can remember where I put it.
> >
> >Matt is quite excited about starting the tank again.....so here is
hoping.
> >He's been promised a trip with my "plastic" to refurb it. Afterall it was
> >his fault I got into this hobby in the first place :-)
> >
> >Gill
> >
>
> I have my fingers crossed. Action plans are good! Excitement is good!
> Doing together is good! Losses are bad! :- ( Trip with plastic is
> fun!
>
> Hooray for Matt! He helped you find this wonderful way to spend time
> and money and to share with each other.
>
> I have a motorhome. After one bad trip, lots of things went wrong, I
> told a friend, moaning about all the bad events. He responded that it
> is great to have problems, they make for interesting tales. Easy
> trips are not talked about or remembered.
>
> dick
>
>
>
> dick

You stirred up all sorts of memories with you "motorhome" analogy.....last
year we rented a mobile home in France - ferry cancelled, 12 hour drive to
get there once we got an alternative, had to return a day early....great
place - daughter sick for most of the time :-( but not a holiday we will
forget in a hurry....all others blend into one. (those with no events)...and
yes when the times were good (daughter got better, Matt's birthday and
presenting him with the photos of his newly fishless set up tank which he
had wanted for years) absolutely priceless. Plus when discussing with my
American colleagues at work their absolute horror that Europeans go to a
"Trailer Park" for their holidays and find it fun....the differences in
culture are always a source of fascination both for me and them (and boy we
have long conversations on this)

Being philosphical (and yes a bit depressed hence my latest posting) .....
keeping fish reflects life - there are ups and downs.....the pluses outweigh
the minuses....but sometimes you just need to rally (as Matt has learnt).
And it is really great to know that there are people out there that care
enough to respond :-)

Gill

LaVerne Storey

June 2nd 05, 03:49 PM

Hi Gil,

Jumped on this late as I've just this week started setting up tanks again
after an 8-year absence due to work.
My questions and comments are woven below; bear in mind I'm VERY
old-fashioned about aquaria:

> Hi All,
> This is really a continuation from the Sick Mollie in my son's tank and
> subsequent loss of two Mollies last weekend. I did my normal check this
> morning and now one of the Rosy Barbs is on her way out. Checked the water
> pH 8 (normal for our tanks), 0 Ammonia and Nitrites and Nitrates are at 5.

For most freshwater fish in general, and Mollies specifically are you adding
about 1/2 to 1 tsp of salt per gallon to the water? It greatly helps in
controlling
bacteria problems and helps the fish maintain their "slime coat" easier.
For lots of live plants, I'd probably go with the 1/2 tsp per gallon.
>
> No new fish added for months. Tank has been running since last August.
>
> Tank is around 15UK galls. Current occupants are 1 mollie and 4 Rosy Barbs
> (around 10 inches of fish maximum). Plenty of plants. Water changes are
> weekly 20-30%. We've had very few problems with this tank until now.

Why would you do more than maybe 10% water changes monthy, if that
much? I would, personaly, find 20%+ weekly to be way too stressful on
both fish and plants. What type of filter are you using?

> I just can't figure out what is going on here or what to do next. If the
> remaining Rosy Barbs would be OK with Gouramis I suppose I could move them
> and then strip down the tank - this is the only thing I can think of for
> now. But I hesitate because I don't want to risk infecting any of the
other
> fish in the other tanks.
>
> Does anyone have any clues as to what might be happening or what I can do
> next to keep the remaining fish?

Wild-ass-guess here that the fish are being over-stressed by all the water
changes disturbing their enviroment, the water doesn't have time to "age"
and promote healthy fish.
Go with the very cheap and old-time salt fix and see how it works for you.

Please email me with the results.

Mack

Dick

June 3rd 05, 10:01 AM

On Thu, 02 Jun 2005 14:49:33 GMT, "LaVerne Storey"
> wrote:

>Hi Gil,
>
>Jumped on this late as I've just this week started setting up tanks again
>after an 8-year absence due to work.
>My questions and comments are woven below; bear in mind I'm VERY
>old-fashioned about aquaria:
>
>> Hi All,
>> This is really a continuation from the Sick Mollie in my son's tank and
>> subsequent loss of two Mollies last weekend. I did my normal check this
>> morning and now one of the Rosy Barbs is on her way out. Checked the water
>> pH 8 (normal for our tanks), 0 Ammonia and Nitrites and Nitrates are at 5.
>
>For most freshwater fish in general, and Mollies specifically are you adding
>about 1/2 to 1 tsp of salt per gallon to the water? It greatly helps in
>controlling
>bacteria problems and helps the fish maintain their "slime coat" easier.
>For lots of live plants, I'd probably go with the 1/2 tsp per gallon.
>>
>> No new fish added for months. Tank has been running since last August.
>>
>> Tank is around 15UK galls. Current occupants are 1 mollie and 4 Rosy Barbs
>> (around 10 inches of fish maximum). Plenty of plants. Water changes are
>> weekly 20-30%. We've had very few problems with this tank until now.
>
>Why would you do more than maybe 10% water changes monthy, if that
>much? I would, personaly, find 20%+ weekly to be way too stressful on
>both fish and plants. What type of filter are you using?
>
>> I just can't figure out what is going on here or what to do next. If the
>> remaining Rosy Barbs would be OK with Gouramis I suppose I could move them
>> and then strip down the tank - this is the only thing I can think of for
>> now. But I hesitate because I don't want to risk infecting any of the
>other
>> fish in the other tanks.
>>
>> Does anyone have any clues as to what might be happening or what I can do
>> next to keep the remaining fish?
>
>Wild-ass-guess here that the fish are being over-stressed by all the water
>changes disturbing their enviroment, the water doesn't have time to "age"
>and promote healthy fish.
>Go with the very cheap and old-time salt fix and see how it works for you.
>
>Please email me with the results.
>
>Mack
>
>
>
>
Hi Mack,

You just prove my opinion that there are many ways to maintain our
fish. I hold an opposite view to you. I change 20% weekly. I have 5
tanks ranging from 75 to 29 to 10 gallons and have followed this
partial water change procedure for over 2 years.

While Mollies like some salt, not all fish do and I believe some
plants don't like salt. One size does not fit all! <g>

dick

LaVerne Storey

June 3rd 05, 08:37 PM

> Hi Mack,
>
> You just prove my opinion that there are many ways to maintain our
> fish. I hold an opposite view to you. I change 20% weekly. I have 5
> tanks ranging from 75 to 29 to 10 gallons and have followed this
> partial water change procedure for over 2 years.
>
> While Mollies like some salt, not all fish do and I believe some
> plants don't like salt. One size does not fit all! <g>
>
> dick

I agree completely, we are all "trained" by past successes and experiences
and apply what we have learned differently.
Even my heaviest planted tanks always had about 1/2 tsp salt added per
gallon
since "forever" so I always offer that up as my opinion.
Frequent water changes work for many people, and I know a few Discus
breeders who swear by them, whereas I swear at them as a pain in the butt
unless actually needed.

Through high school back in the mid 70's, I had one 10-gallon tank that
never received a water change or cleaning for 2 years.
It was heavily planted, mostly java moss, and was stocked with a family of
whiteclouds ( 8 initially) and restocked occasionally with daphnia.
It also had a strong growth of algae for the fish to nibble on.

It had a tight fitting cover and gentle back filter powered by an airpump.
(sort of a motor-less power filter I could change sponge from outside the
tank)
Rinsing and replacing the sponge was it for maintenance other than a monthly
scraping the algae off the front of the tank so I could see in clearly.

I did several water top-ups over the months to replace evaporation losses,
but no water was ever changed or removed. The white clouds were fed flake
foods and daphnia when available, and the daphnia were breeding slowly in
the tank
from those who survived feeding.

Over the two years I had it setup, I netted out over 400 baby whiteclouds to
hand
out to friends, or feed the excess to my killies.

I wouldn't try this with discus in a million years, but my bettas loved a
very
similiar tank setup and so did my angelfish who bred several times on a
piece
of slate leaned up against the back of the tank under the water flow from
the
filter.

Like I said in my first post, I'm old fashioned about fish and tanks.
Set it up as natural as I can and leave it alone.

Mack

papalulu

June 3rd 05, 10:35 PM

Hi All,
This is really a continuation from the Sick Mollie in my son's tank and
subsequent loss of two Mollies last weekend. I did my normal check this
morning and now one of the Rosy Barbs is on her way out. Checked the water
pH 8 (normal for our tanks), 0 Ammonia and Nitrites and Nitrates are at 5.

No new fish added for months. Tank has been running since last August.

Tank is around 15UK galls. Current occupants are 1 mollie and 4 Rosy Barbs
(around 10 inches of fish maximum). Plenty of plants. Water changes are
weekly 20-30%. We've had very few problems with this tank until now.

I just can't figure out what is going on here or what to do next. If the
remaining Rosy Barbs would be OK with Gouramis I suppose I could move them
and then strip down the tank - this is the only thing I can think of for
now. But I hesitate because I don't want to risk infecting any of the other
fish in the other tanks.

Does anyone have any clues as to what might be happening or what I can do
next to keep the remaining fish?

Thanks
Gill

Gill
I have been reading through this problem with the fish losses. It appears most avenues have been explored. But am I right in thinking this tank is in a separate room from the others? Could the cause possibly be from outside? for example, spray polish/air freshners.

You say this happens at night, is the room sealed at night? Have you decorated recently. Open fire? gas fire/boiler
Have you had any carpets dry cleaned.
Just a few suggestions as to cause, might as well eliminate everything.

I had a couple of losses a while ago and explored everything, did the water changes and as a last resort before going down the chemical road I stripped down the external filter for a good clean (Just in case). It had only been installed for a couple of months and really did not need the maintenence. Anyway it transpired that I had left the carbon sponge in it for all this time, it must have been giving up and returning all its good work back into the nice clean water! Once removed all went back to normal and everyones happy now. Especially the cat (loads of action going on now).
Good Luck
Please keep us posted.
Steve

Gill Passman

June 4th 05, 10:26 AM

"papalulu" > wrote in message
...
>
> Gill Passman Wrote:
> > Hi All,
> > This is really a continuation from the Sick Mollie in my son's tank
> > and
> > subsequent loss of two Mollies last weekend. I did my normal check
> > this
> > morning and now one of the Rosy Barbs is on her way out. Checked the
> > water
> > pH 8 (normal for our tanks), 0 Ammonia and Nitrites and Nitrates are at
> > 5.
> >
> > No new fish added for months. Tank has been running since last August.
> >
> > Tank is around 15UK galls. Current occupants are 1 mollie and 4 Rosy
> > Barbs
> > (around 10 inches of fish maximum). Plenty of plants. Water changes
> > are
> > weekly 20-30%. We've had very few problems with this tank until now.
> >
> > I just can't figure out what is going on here or what to do next. If
> > the
> > remaining Rosy Barbs would be OK with Gouramis I suppose I could move
> > them
> > and then strip down the tank - this is the only thing I can think of
> > for
> > now. But I hesitate because I don't want to risk infecting any of the
> > other
> > fish in the other tanks.
> >
> > Does anyone have any clues as to what might be happening or what I can
> > do
> > next to keep the remaining fish?
> >
> > Thanks
> > Gill
>
> Gill
> I have been reading through this problem with the fish losses. It
> appears most avenues have been explored. But am I right in thinking
> this tank is in a separate room from the others? Could the cause
> possibly be from outside? for example, spray polish/air freshners.
>
> You say this happens at night, is the room sealed at night? Have you
> decorated recently. Open fire? gas fire/boiler
> Have you had any carpets dry cleaned.
> Just a few suggestions as to cause, might as well eliminate
> everything.
>
> I had a couple of losses a while ago and explored everything, did the
> water changes and as a last resort before going down the chemical road
> I stripped down the external filter for a good clean (Just in case). It
> had only been installed for a couple of months and really did not need
> the maintenence. Anyway it transpired that I had left the carbon sponge
> in it for all this time, it must have been giving up and returning all
> its good work back into the nice clean water! Once removed all went
> back to normal and everyones happy now. Especially the cat (loads of
> action going on now).
> Good Luck
> Please keep us posted.
> Steve
>
>
> --
> papalulu

Hi Steve,
Thanks for the post. There are two tanks in the room. No changes been made
to the room. Fortunately the losses seem to have stopped now and the three
remaining fish are fine.

We are still looking at redoing the tank

Thanks
Gill

Dick

June 4th 05, 11:08 AM

On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 19:37:13 GMT, "LaVerne Storey"
> wrote:

>> Hi Mack,
>>
>> You just prove my opinion that there are many ways to maintain our
>> fish. I hold an opposite view to you. I change 20% weekly. I have 5
>> tanks ranging from 75 to 29 to 10 gallons and have followed this
>> partial water change procedure for over 2 years.
>>
>> While Mollies like some salt, not all fish do and I believe some
>> plants don't like salt. One size does not fit all! <g>
>>
>> dick
>
>I agree completely, we are all "trained" by past successes and experiences
>and apply what we have learned differently.
>Even my heaviest planted tanks always had about 1/2 tsp salt added per
>gallon
>since "forever" so I always offer that up as my opinion.
>Frequent water changes work for many people, and I know a few Discus
>breeders who swear by them, whereas I swear at them as a pain in the butt
>unless actually needed.
>
>Through high school back in the mid 70's, I had one 10-gallon tank that
>never received a water change or cleaning for 2 years.
>It was heavily planted, mostly java moss, and was stocked with a family of
>whiteclouds ( 8 initially) and restocked occasionally with daphnia.
>It also had a strong growth of algae for the fish to nibble on.
>
>It had a tight fitting cover and gentle back filter powered by an airpump.
>(sort of a motor-less power filter I could change sponge from outside the
>tank)
>Rinsing and replacing the sponge was it for maintenance other than a monthly
>scraping the algae off the front of the tank so I could see in clearly.
>
>I did several water top-ups over the months to replace evaporation losses,
>but no water was ever changed or removed. The white clouds were fed flake
>foods and daphnia when available, and the daphnia were breeding slowly in
>the tank
>from those who survived feeding.
>
>Over the two years I had it setup, I netted out over 400 baby whiteclouds to
>hand
>out to friends, or feed the excess to my killies.
>
>I wouldn't try this with discus in a million years, but my bettas loved a
>very
>similiar tank setup and so did my angelfish who bred several times on a
>piece
>of slate leaned up against the back of the tank under the water flow from
>the
>filter.
>
>Like I said in my first post, I'm old fashioned about fish and tanks.
>Set it up as natural as I can and leave it alone.
>
>Mack
>
>
>
One long term consideration, by only adding water to replace water
evaporated, the solid to fluid ratio increases. This leads to the
"Old Tank Syndrome." Moving new fish in or old fish out requires them
to adjust, if possible, to a different "osmotic" pressure. It is my
understanding the pressure can become great enough that the fish can
no longer adjust. Thus new fish added from the LFS are at risk or fry
moved to a new tank will be at risk.

I have not experienced such a problem, but then my tanks are less than
3 years of age and I do the partial water changes which should keep
the solids build up down.

Otherwise I see things the way you do. A well balanced tank with
plants and a proper fish load should do well, it does in nature all
the time, but in nature there is a constant exchange of water or else
we call the water stagnant. However, I have read of closed systems
that keep their balance. Your tanks sound close to closed except for
the evaporation of water which leads to solids becoming concentrated.

Another thought is oxygen. I have seen fish gasping at the top for
air. Usually due to medication, but can be caused by other things
such as over population. Adding air bubblers can correct the
situation quickly, but increases evaporation. I noted the "back
filter" run by an air pump. I remember them well as I did not like
changing out the filter media. They were a source of aeration.

It is strange how we each arrive at procedures and setups which work
for us. Then, we all cling to the thought, "If it ain't broke, don't
fix it". I read the newsgroups every morning, but seldom am I tempted
to change MY setups.

I know my tanks were over populated and still are, size has replaced
quantities, but the inch/gallon ratio has probably gone higher. I see
my plant population change and different tanks populated with the same
plants at the same time vary in plant survival and growth. Crypts in
my 75 gallon tank are about 3 inches in height whereas in a 29 gallon
tank they are more prolific and grow to heights of a foot or more
topping out close to the light hood. A couple of Clown Loaches in the
29 gallon tank are larger than any in the 75 gallon and 2 in a 10
gallon tank seem to be doing well and of average size.

Thanks for sharing your experience. Real experience out weighs
theories every time for me. (except the solid ratio buildup, it could
be sneaky)

dick

Steve

June 4th 05, 02:21 PM

Gill Passman wrote:

>>Please keep us posted.
>>Steve
>>
>>
>>--
>>papalulu
>
>
> Hi Steve,
> Thanks for the post. There are two tanks in the room. No changes been made
> to the room. Fortunately the losses seem to have stopped now and the three
> remaining fish are fine.
>
> We are still looking at redoing the tank
>
> Thanks
> Gill
>
>

Hi Gill,
Because the tank seems to have settled down, why not carry on with it
for a few more months before breakdown? Were it my aquarium I'd let
things stabilize completely with continued proper feeding and
maintenance, and without adding any more fish.

Tank breakdown may cause loss of beneficial bacteria from substrate and
tank walls. The whole process can stress the fish, possibly leading to
more losses. Just some thoughts.
Steve (in Canada)

Gill Passman

June 4th 05, 03:01 PM

"Steve" > wrote in message
...
> Gill Passman wrote:
>
> >>Please keep us posted.
> >>Steve
> >>
> >>
> >>--
> >>papalulu
> >
> >
> > Hi Steve,
> > Thanks for the post. There are two tanks in the room. No changes been
made
> > to the room. Fortunately the losses seem to have stopped now and the
three
> > remaining fish are fine.
> >
> > We are still looking at redoing the tank
> >
> > Thanks
> > Gill
> >
> >
>
> Hi Gill,
> Because the tank seems to have settled down, why not carry on with it
> for a few more months before breakdown? Were it my aquarium I'd let
> things stabilize completely with continued proper feeding and
> maintenance, and without adding any more fish.
>
> Tank breakdown may cause loss of beneficial bacteria from substrate and
> tank walls. The whole process can stress the fish, possibly leading to
> more losses. Just some thoughts.
> Steve (in Canada)

The fish would be rehoused in a mature, cycled tank before any tank
breakdown. The main reason for thinking of doing this was for Matt's benefit
as he was quite upset as we kept losing the fish and feeling very negative
about the tank (see earlier posts_. However having talked to Matt (who's
tank it is) he wants to leave it now it is settled, which IMO is what I
think we should do....so agree with you.

The only thing that does niggle me is the gravel which I don't think is the
best for keeping clean. Maybe after we are sure all is settled we'll look at
doing a gradual change of this.

Thanks
Gill

Steve

June 4th 05, 03:35 PM

Gill Passman wrote:
>
>>>We are still looking at redoing the tank
>>>
>>>Thanks
>>>Gill
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Hi Gill,
>>Because the tank seems to have settled down, why not carry on with it
>>for a few more months before breakdown? Were it my aquarium I'd let
>>things stabilize completely with continued proper feeding and
>>maintenance, and without adding any more fish.
>>
>>Tank breakdown may cause loss of beneficial bacteria from substrate and
>>tank walls. The whole process can stress the fish, possibly leading to
>>more losses. Just some thoughts.
>>Steve (in Canada)
>
>
> The fish would be rehoused in a mature, cycled tank before any tank
> breakdown. The main reason for thinking of doing this was for Matt's benefit
> as he was quite upset as we kept losing the fish and feeling very negative
> about the tank (see earlier posts_. However having talked to Matt (who's
> tank it is) he wants to leave it now it is settled, which IMO is what I
> think we should do....so agree with you.
>
> The only thing that does niggle me is the gravel which I don't think is the
> best for keeping clean. Maybe after we are sure all is settled we'll look at
> doing a gradual change of this.
>
> Thanks
> Gill
>
>
>
Hi Gill,
You mentioned you're using coarse pea gravel that can trap more uneaten
food than a finer or mixed-size substrate. I think you're right in
wanting to eventually change it, however diligent weekly/ biweekly
gravel vacuuming (don't disturb plant roots too much) and moderate
twice-a-day feeding (fish will eat most food before it enters the
substrate) would probably make for a healthy aquarium, despite the pea
gravel. You'll have an idea of whether much food is being trapped, by
any "flaky" grunge recovered with the gravel vacuum. From your posts it
sounds like you have an excellent understanding of aquarium maintenance,
in any case!

In an earlier post in this thread, I reported being very happy with
eco-complete plant substrate, to which I changed my big aquarium all at
once. If you wish try an all-at once substrate change, it might be best
to let the aquarium settle down for a few months as you are planning,
before attempting it. Happy aquarium-keeping!
Steve (in Canada)

Gill Passman

June 4th 05, 04:40 PM

"Steve" > wrote in message
...
> Gill Passman wrote:
> >
> >>>We are still looking at redoing the tank
> >>>
> >>>Thanks
> >>>Gill
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>Hi Gill,
> >>Because the tank seems to have settled down, why not carry on with it
> >>for a few more months before breakdown? Were it my aquarium I'd let
> >>things stabilize completely with continued proper feeding and
> >>maintenance, and without adding any more fish.
> >>
> >>Tank breakdown may cause loss of beneficial bacteria from substrate and
> >>tank walls. The whole process can stress the fish, possibly leading to
> >>more losses. Just some thoughts.
> >>Steve (in Canada)
> >
> >
> > The fish would be rehoused in a mature, cycled tank before any tank
> > breakdown. The main reason for thinking of doing this was for Matt's
benefit
> > as he was quite upset as we kept losing the fish and feeling very
negative
> > about the tank (see earlier posts_. However having talked to Matt (who's
> > tank it is) he wants to leave it now it is settled, which IMO is what I
> > think we should do....so agree with you.
> >
> > The only thing that does niggle me is the gravel which I don't think is
the
> > best for keeping clean. Maybe after we are sure all is settled we'll
look at
> > doing a gradual change of this.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Gill
> >
> >
> >
> Hi Gill,
> You mentioned you're using coarse pea gravel that can trap more uneaten
> food than a finer or mixed-size substrate. I think you're right in
> wanting to eventually change it, however diligent weekly/ biweekly
> gravel vacuuming (don't disturb plant roots too much) and moderate
> twice-a-day feeding (fish will eat most food before it enters the
> substrate) would probably make for a healthy aquarium, despite the pea
> gravel. You'll have an idea of whether much food is being trapped, by
> any "flaky" grunge recovered with the gravel vacuum. From your posts it
> sounds like you have an excellent understanding of aquarium maintenance,
> in any case!
>
> In an earlier post in this thread, I reported being very happy with
> eco-complete plant substrate, to which I changed my big aquarium all at
> once. If you wish try an all-at once substrate change, it might be best
> to let the aquarium settle down for a few months as you are planning,
> before attempting it. Happy aquarium-keeping!
> Steve (in Canada)

Just been out and got a 5gall QT tank so that we don't get caught out again.
As much as it pains me to have any empty fish tank it is tucked away in a
cupboard under one of the big tanks. Hopefully only to be used for new
fish....

I've thought about everything that has happened and overfeeding is at the
top of the list (helpful relative visited twice both times a couple of days
before the losses started) - all fish food to get locked away as a
precaution in future....

Anyway everything now well in the tank :-)

I'd like to thank everyone for their help and suggestions. BTW I couldn't
find a source of Potassium Permangenate in the UK - I guess I'd have to get
it from a pharmacy.

Now off to look for a missing Rusty Cichlid....and lots of gravel
vacs....Always plenty to do with this hobby :-)
Thanks
Gill

Elaine T

June 4th 05, 06:03 PM

Dick wrote:
> On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 19:37:13 GMT, "LaVerne Storey"
> > wrote:
>
>
>>>Hi Mack,
>>>
>>>You just prove my opinion that there are many ways to maintain our
>>>fish. I hold an opposite view to you. I change 20% weekly. I have 5
>>>tanks ranging from 75 to 29 to 10 gallons and have followed this
>>>partial water change procedure for over 2 years.
>>>
>>>While Mollies like some salt, not all fish do and I believe some
>>>plants don't like salt. One size does not fit all! <g>
>>>
>>>dick
>>
>>I agree completely, we are all "trained" by past successes and experiences
>>and apply what we have learned differently.
>>Even my heaviest planted tanks always had about 1/2 tsp salt added per
>>gallon
>>since "forever" so I always offer that up as my opinion.
>>Frequent water changes work for many people, and I know a few Discus
>>breeders who swear by them, whereas I swear at them as a pain in the butt
>>unless actually needed.
>>
>>Through high school back in the mid 70's, I had one 10-gallon tank that
>>never received a water change or cleaning for 2 years.
>>It was heavily planted, mostly java moss, and was stocked with a family of
>>whiteclouds ( 8 initially) and restocked occasionally with daphnia.
>>It also had a strong growth of algae for the fish to nibble on.
>>
>>It had a tight fitting cover and gentle back filter powered by an airpump.
>>(sort of a motor-less power filter I could change sponge from outside the
>>tank)
>>Rinsing and replacing the sponge was it for maintenance other than a monthly
>>scraping the algae off the front of the tank so I could see in clearly.
>>
>>I did several water top-ups over the months to replace evaporation losses,
>>but no water was ever changed or removed. The white clouds were fed flake
>>foods and daphnia when available, and the daphnia were breeding slowly in
>>the tank
>
>>from those who survived feeding.
>
>>Over the two years I had it setup, I netted out over 400 baby whiteclouds to
>>hand
>>out to friends, or feed the excess to my killies.
>>
>>I wouldn't try this with discus in a million years, but my bettas loved a
>>very
>>similiar tank setup and so did my angelfish who bred several times on a
>>piece
>>of slate leaned up against the back of the tank under the water flow from
>>the
>>filter.
>>
>>Like I said in my first post, I'm old fashioned about fish and tanks.
>>Set it up as natural as I can and leave it alone.
>>
>>Mack
>>
>>
>>
>
> One long term consideration, by only adding water to replace water
> evaporated, the solid to fluid ratio increases. This leads to the
> "Old Tank Syndrome." Moving new fish in or old fish out requires them
> to adjust, if possible, to a different "osmotic" pressure. It is my
> understanding the pressure can become great enough that the fish can
> no longer adjust. Thus new fish added from the LFS are at risk or fry
> moved to a new tank will be at risk.
>
> I have not experienced such a problem, but then my tanks are less than
> 3 years of age and I do the partial water changes which should keep
> the solids build up down.
>
> Otherwise I see things the way you do. A well balanced tank with
> plants and a proper fish load should do well, it does in nature all
> the time, but in nature there is a constant exchange of water or else
> we call the water stagnant. However, I have read of closed systems
> that keep their balance. Your tanks sound close to closed except for
> the evaporation of water which leads to solids becoming concentrated.
>
> Another thought is oxygen. I have seen fish gasping at the top for
> air. Usually due to medication, but can be caused by other things
> such as over population. Adding air bubblers can correct the
> situation quickly, but increases evaporation. I noted the "back
> filter" run by an air pump. I remember them well as I did not like
> changing out the filter media. They were a source of aeration.
>
> It is strange how we each arrive at procedures and setups which work
> for us. Then, we all cling to the thought, "If it ain't broke, don't
> fix it". I read the newsgroups every morning, but seldom am I tempted
> to change MY setups.
>
> I know my tanks were over populated and still are, size has replaced
> quantities, but the inch/gallon ratio has probably gone higher. I see
> my plant population change and different tanks populated with the same
> plants at the same time vary in plant survival and growth. Crypts in
> my 75 gallon tank are about 3 inches in height whereas in a 29 gallon
> tank they are more prolific and grow to heights of a foot or more
> topping out close to the light hood. A couple of Clown Loaches in the
> 29 gallon tank are larger than any in the 75 gallon and 2 in a 10
> gallon tank seem to be doing well and of average size.
>
> Thanks for sharing your experience. Real experience out weighs
> theories every time for me. (except the solid ratio buildup, it could
> be sneaky)
>
> dick
>
>
That whitecloud tank sounds like a real joy to keep and watch. I'm a
frequent water changer as well, but it's nice to know there are other
options. I think fishkeeping is easier with frequent water changes -
one doesn't have to worry quite as much about tank balance. My dad kept
fish in the '70s and said that aquarists avoided changing water as much
as possible. He kept mostly killies in tanks with big clumps of
floating watersprite.

As for the water mineralizing, that's not necessarily an issue in a
planted tank. Remember that plants can extract dissolved organics from
the water and require minerals like Mg, Mn, Fe, some Ca, and C03.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

Gill Passman

June 6th 05, 06:53 PM

"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
>
> "Steve" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Gill Passman wrote:
> > >
> > >>>We are still looking at redoing the tank
> > >>>
> > >>>Thanks
> > >>>Gill
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >>Hi Gill,
> > >>Because the tank seems to have settled down, why not carry on with it
> > >>for a few more months before breakdown? Were it my aquarium I'd let
> > >>things stabilize completely with continued proper feeding and
> > >>maintenance, and without adding any more fish.
> > >>
> > >>Tank breakdown may cause loss of beneficial bacteria from substrate
and
> > >>tank walls. The whole process can stress the fish, possibly leading to
> > >>more losses. Just some thoughts.
> > >>Steve (in Canada)
> > >
> > >
> > > The fish would be rehoused in a mature, cycled tank before any tank
> > > breakdown. The main reason for thinking of doing this was for Matt's
> benefit
> > > as he was quite upset as we kept losing the fish and feeling very
> negative
> > > about the tank (see earlier posts_. However having talked to Matt
(who's
> > > tank it is) he wants to leave it now it is settled, which IMO is what
I
> > > think we should do....so agree with you.
> > >
> > > The only thing that does niggle me is the gravel which I don't think
is
> the
> > > best for keeping clean. Maybe after we are sure all is settled we'll
> look at
> > > doing a gradual change of this.
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > > Gill
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > Hi Gill,
> > You mentioned you're using coarse pea gravel that can trap more uneaten
> > food than a finer or mixed-size substrate. I think you're right in
> > wanting to eventually change it, however diligent weekly/ biweekly
> > gravel vacuuming (don't disturb plant roots too much) and moderate
> > twice-a-day feeding (fish will eat most food before it enters the
> > substrate) would probably make for a healthy aquarium, despite the pea
> > gravel. You'll have an idea of whether much food is being trapped, by
> > any "flaky" grunge recovered with the gravel vacuum. From your posts it
> > sounds like you have an excellent understanding of aquarium maintenance,
> > in any case!
> >
> > In an earlier post in this thread, I reported being very happy with
> > eco-complete plant substrate, to which I changed my big aquarium all at
> > once. If you wish try an all-at once substrate change, it might be best
> > to let the aquarium settle down for a few months as you are planning,
> > before attempting it. Happy aquarium-keeping!
> > Steve (in Canada)
>
> Just been out and got a 5gall QT tank so that we don't get caught out
again.
> As much as it pains me to have any empty fish tank it is tucked away in a
> cupboard under one of the big tanks. Hopefully only to be used for new
> fish....
>
> I've thought about everything that has happened and overfeeding is at the
> top of the list (helpful relative visited twice both times a couple of
days
> before the losses started) - all fish food to get locked away as a
> precaution in future....
>
> Anyway everything now well in the tank :-)
>
> I'd like to thank everyone for their help and suggestions. BTW I couldn't
> find a source of Potassium Permangenate in the UK - I guess I'd have to
get
> it from a pharmacy.
>
> Now off to look for a missing Rusty Cichlid....and lots of gravel
> vacs....Always plenty to do with this hobby :-)
> Thanks
> Gill
>
>
>

Spoke too soon :-( Lost another Mollie today - exact same symptoms.

Other than moving the two remaining fish I can't think of anything else to
do

Gill

Gill Passman

June 6th 05, 07:40 PM

"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
>
> "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
> .. .
> >
> > "Steve" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Gill Passman wrote:
> > > >
> > > >>>We are still looking at redoing the tank
> > > >>>
> > > >>>Thanks
> > > >>>Gill
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > > >>Hi Gill,
> > > >>Because the tank seems to have settled down, why not carry on with
it
> > > >>for a few more months before breakdown? Were it my aquarium I'd let
> > > >>things stabilize completely with continued proper feeding and
> > > >>maintenance, and without adding any more fish.
> > > >>
> > > >>Tank breakdown may cause loss of beneficial bacteria from substrate
> and
> > > >>tank walls. The whole process can stress the fish, possibly leading
to
> > > >>more losses. Just some thoughts.
> > > >>Steve (in Canada)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The fish would be rehoused in a mature, cycled tank before any tank
> > > > breakdown. The main reason for thinking of doing this was for Matt's
> > benefit
> > > > as he was quite upset as we kept losing the fish and feeling very
> > negative
> > > > about the tank (see earlier posts_. However having talked to Matt
> (who's
> > > > tank it is) he wants to leave it now it is settled, which IMO is
what
> I
> > > > think we should do....so agree with you.
> > > >
> > > > The only thing that does niggle me is the gravel which I don't think
> is
> > the
> > > > best for keeping clean. Maybe after we are sure all is settled we'll
> > look at
> > > > doing a gradual change of this.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks
> > > > Gill
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > Hi Gill,
> > > You mentioned you're using coarse pea gravel that can trap more
uneaten
> > > food than a finer or mixed-size substrate. I think you're right in
> > > wanting to eventually change it, however diligent weekly/ biweekly
> > > gravel vacuuming (don't disturb plant roots too much) and moderate
> > > twice-a-day feeding (fish will eat most food before it enters the
> > > substrate) would probably make for a healthy aquarium, despite the pea
> > > gravel. You'll have an idea of whether much food is being trapped, by
> > > any "flaky" grunge recovered with the gravel vacuum. From your posts
it
> > > sounds like you have an excellent understanding of aquarium
maintenance,
> > > in any case!
> > >
> > > In an earlier post in this thread, I reported being very happy with
> > > eco-complete plant substrate, to which I changed my big aquarium all
at
> > > once. If you wish try an all-at once substrate change, it might be
best
> > > to let the aquarium settle down for a few months as you are planning,
> > > before attempting it. Happy aquarium-keeping!
> > > Steve (in Canada)
> >
> > Just been out and got a 5gall QT tank so that we don't get caught out
> again.
> > As much as it pains me to have any empty fish tank it is tucked away in
a
> > cupboard under one of the big tanks. Hopefully only to be used for new
> > fish....
> >
> > I've thought about everything that has happened and overfeeding is at
the
> > top of the list (helpful relative visited twice both times a couple of
> days
> > before the losses started) - all fish food to get locked away as a
> > precaution in future....
> >
> > Anyway everything now well in the tank :-)
> >
> > I'd like to thank everyone for their help and suggestions. BTW I
couldn't
> > find a source of Potassium Permangenate in the UK - I guess I'd have to
> get
> > it from a pharmacy.
> >
> > Now off to look for a missing Rusty Cichlid....and lots of gravel
> > vacs....Always plenty to do with this hobby :-)
> > Thanks
> > Gill
> >
> >
> >
>
> Spoke too soon :-( Lost another Mollie today - exact same symptoms.
>
> Other than moving the two remaining fish I can't think of anything else to
> do
>
> Gill
>
>
The poor demised Mollie was at the back of the tank and I had to put my hand
in to net her. The temp of the water seemed pretty high to me so I took out
the new thermometer I had bought for my main community tank to double check
the existing - 32C!!!!!.....explains everything including the overnight
deaths (lack of oxygen I'm guessing)

We're checking out the thermostat over the next few hours - it was set at
27C - we've turned this down to 24C - it seems to be working again at the
moment when we were testing it so we are wondering if it got stuck on. If it
is bust I'll move the two remaining Barbs.

Called Matt and updated him - he was sad over the mollie but relieved that
we seem to have got to the bottom of it....

Gill

Dick

June 7th 05, 11:36 AM

On Mon, 6 Jun 2005 19:40:08 +0100, "Gill Passman"
<gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote:

>
>"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
>>
>> "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
>> .. .
>> >
>> > "Steve" > wrote in message
>> > ...
>> > > Gill Passman wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > >>>We are still looking at redoing the tank
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>>Thanks
>> > > >>>Gill
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>
>> > > >>Hi Gill,
>> > > >>Because the tank seems to have settled down, why not carry on with
>it
>> > > >>for a few more months before breakdown? Were it my aquarium I'd let
>> > > >>things stabilize completely with continued proper feeding and
>> > > >>maintenance, and without adding any more fish.
>> > > >>
>> > > >>Tank breakdown may cause loss of beneficial bacteria from substrate
>> and
>> > > >>tank walls. The whole process can stress the fish, possibly leading
>to
>> > > >>more losses. Just some thoughts.
>> > > >>Steve (in Canada)
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > The fish would be rehoused in a mature, cycled tank before any tank
>> > > > breakdown. The main reason for thinking of doing this was for Matt's
>> > benefit
>> > > > as he was quite upset as we kept losing the fish and feeling very
>> > negative
>> > > > about the tank (see earlier posts_. However having talked to Matt
>> (who's
>> > > > tank it is) he wants to leave it now it is settled, which IMO is
>what
>> I
>> > > > think we should do....so agree with you.
>> > > >
>> > > > The only thing that does niggle me is the gravel which I don't think
>> is
>> > the
>> > > > best for keeping clean. Maybe after we are sure all is settled we'll
>> > look at
>> > > > doing a gradual change of this.
>> > > >
>> > > > Thanks
>> > > > Gill
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > Hi Gill,
>> > > You mentioned you're using coarse pea gravel that can trap more
>uneaten
>> > > food than a finer or mixed-size substrate. I think you're right in
>> > > wanting to eventually change it, however diligent weekly/ biweekly
>> > > gravel vacuuming (don't disturb plant roots too much) and moderate
>> > > twice-a-day feeding (fish will eat most food before it enters the
>> > > substrate) would probably make for a healthy aquarium, despite the pea
>> > > gravel. You'll have an idea of whether much food is being trapped, by
>> > > any "flaky" grunge recovered with the gravel vacuum. From your posts
>it
>> > > sounds like you have an excellent understanding of aquarium
>maintenance,
>> > > in any case!
>> > >
>> > > In an earlier post in this thread, I reported being very happy with
>> > > eco-complete plant substrate, to which I changed my big aquarium all
>at
>> > > once. If you wish try an all-at once substrate change, it might be
>best
>> > > to let the aquarium settle down for a few months as you are planning,
>> > > before attempting it. Happy aquarium-keeping!
>> > > Steve (in Canada)
>> >
>> > Just been out and got a 5gall QT tank so that we don't get caught out
>> again.
>> > As much as it pains me to have any empty fish tank it is tucked away in
>a
>> > cupboard under one of the big tanks. Hopefully only to be used for new
>> > fish....
>> >
>> > I've thought about everything that has happened and overfeeding is at
>the
>> > top of the list (helpful relative visited twice both times a couple of
>> days
>> > before the losses started) - all fish food to get locked away as a
>> > precaution in future....
>> >
>> > Anyway everything now well in the tank :-)
>> >
>> > I'd like to thank everyone for their help and suggestions. BTW I
>couldn't
>> > find a source of Potassium Permangenate in the UK - I guess I'd have to
>> get
>> > it from a pharmacy.
>> >
>> > Now off to look for a missing Rusty Cichlid....and lots of gravel
>> > vacs....Always plenty to do with this hobby :-)
>> > Thanks
>> > Gill
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> Spoke too soon :-( Lost another Mollie today - exact same symptoms.
>>
>> Other than moving the two remaining fish I can't think of anything else to
>> do
>>
>> Gill
>>
>>
>The poor demised Mollie was at the back of the tank and I had to put my hand
>in to net her. The temp of the water seemed pretty high to me so I took out
>the new thermometer I had bought for my main community tank to double check
>the existing - 32C!!!!!.....explains everything including the overnight
>deaths (lack of oxygen I'm guessing)
>
>We're checking out the thermostat over the next few hours - it was set at
>27C - we've turned this down to 24C - it seems to be working again at the
>moment when we were testing it so we are wondering if it got stuck on. If it
>is bust I'll move the two remaining Barbs.
>
>Called Matt and updated him - he was sad over the mollie but relieved that
>we seem to have got to the bottom of it....
>
>Gill
>
I never trust heater calibrations. Each of my tanks have electronic
thermometers with min max alarms. I set the heater by the
thermometers, not the calibrations. Also, I put the thermometer probe
away from the heater so I am setting the temperature to the water away
from the heater.

I hope that the high temperature was the source of your problems. 32C
does seem too high. Never had a tank with that high a temperature.
Mollies are my most difficult fish. Good they breed so well. When
mine are gone there will be no more mollies.

I will keep my fingers crossed for you and Matt.

dick