Advice - Is it time to get an SAE?

[Larry]

I have a 26g planted tank. Short blackish algae has started to grow
on both the rocks and plants. I have 3or 4 ottos and a clown pleco
but they don't seem to be doing the job (on the glass maybe).

SAEs I've had in the past turned into bullys but think it's time to
try again. Need a good cleaner.

I have Bolivian Rams, Keyholes, a Yellow Lab, a few Tetras, Rasporas
and Panda Corys.

Your advice please.

TIA

Larry

[Elaine T]

Larry wrote:
> I have a 26g planted tank. Short blackish algae has started to grow
> on both the rocks and plants. I have 3or 4 ottos and a clown pleco
> but they don't seem to be doing the job (on the glass maybe).
>
> SAEs I've had in the past turned into bullys but think it's time to
> try again. Need a good cleaner.
>
> I have Bolivian Rams, Keyholes, a Yellow Lab, a few Tetras, Rasporas
> and Panda Corys.
>
> Your advice please.
>
> TIA
>
> Larry
>
>
You're right - an SAE is what you need. I've always found them to be
gentle and inquisitive rather than bullies. And they'll never miss a
feeding! My juvenile SAE shoals with the rasboras or the pygmy loach.
It's funny watching him try to hover in midwater with the rasboras.

I wonder if you got E. kalopteris (Flying fox) or C. oblongus (false
siamensis) rather than C. siamensis in the past. Both can be somewhat
more aggressive. http://www.thekrib.com/Fish/Algae-Eaters/ is the
classic ID article, and
http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/Fishindx/sae.htm has a great picture too.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Mean_Chlorine]

Thusly Larry > Spake Unto All:

>Your advice please.


AFAIK siamese algae eaters are the only ones who'll eat black beard
algae.

[Mean_Chlorine]

Thusly Elaine T > Spake Unto All:

>You're right - an SAE is what you need. I've always found them to be
>gentle and inquisitive rather than bullies.

I would describe my SAE's as hyperactive, voracious, effective &
highly social - but not really as "gentle"...

>I wonder if you got E. kalopteris (Flying fox) or C. oblongus (false
>siamensis) rather than C. siamensis in the past. Both can be somewhat
>more aggressive. http://www.thekrib.com/Fish/Algae-Eaters/ is the
>classic ID article, and
>http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/Fishindx/sae.htm has a great picture too.

Well, it's possible, but some individuals of SAE are aggressive. I've
had a couple of nasty ones.
As long as one have a reasonable group of them they tend to dissipate
their aggression mainly within the group (what people tend to think of
as "play"), but the odd one may turn aggressive towards other species
even if there are other siamensis present.

Also, coverglass is a must, as the dominant SAE otherwise *will* chase
the other SAE's out of the tank.


I was also recently made aware that there's been some changes in the
naming of these fish - the fish formerly known as Crossocheilus
siamensis is now considered a synonym of Crossocheilus oblongus, which
to me, frankly, seems strange, as the written description of C.
oblongus does not match that of C. siamensis. When I first heard that
I was sure it was some sort of mistake.

However, Kottelat (2001. Fishes of Laos.) is the leading expert in the
field and should know what he's talking about.

I do note however that I am apparently not the only one who finds this
strange - fishbase lists the reference and synonymy, but has retained
the name Crossocheilus siamensis.

[Dick]

On Wed, 01 Jun 2005 06:00:08 GMT, Elaine T >
wrote:

>Larry wrote:
>> I have a 26g planted tank. Short blackish algae has started to grow
>> on both the rocks and plants. I have 3or 4 ottos and a clown pleco
>> but they don't seem to be doing the job (on the glass maybe).
>>
>> SAEs I've had in the past turned into bullys but think it's time to
>> try again. Need a good cleaner.
>>
>> I have Bolivian Rams, Keyholes, a Yellow Lab, a few Tetras, Rasporas
>> and Panda Corys.
>>
>> Your advice please.
>>
>> TIA
>>
>> Larry
>>
>>
>You're right - an SAE is what you need. I've always found them to be
>gentle and inquisitive rather than bullies. And they'll never miss a
>feeding! My juvenile SAE shoals with the rasboras or the pygmy loach.
>It's funny watching him try to hover in midwater with the rasboras.
>
>I wonder if you got E. kalopteris (Flying fox) or C. oblongus (false
>siamensis) rather than C. siamensis in the past. Both can be somewhat
>more aggressive. http://www.thekrib.com/Fish/Algae-Eaters/ is the
>classic ID article, and
>http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/Fishindx/sae.htm has a great picture too.


I agree with Elaine. I have SAEs in 3 tanks, 8 in a 75 gal, 6 in a 29
and 1 in a 10 gal tank. They are very gentle fish. A case in point,
once in awhile I put algae tabs in the tanks. This is a very popular
action, like catnip to a cat. My fish share the tabs. I have seen
SAEs back off to let another fish nibble. I do have one 5 inch Pleco
that is a rude "hog." It will cover tabs with its body and fight any
fish coming near, but never an aggressive act from an SAE.

I have read posts involving "false" SAEs being aggressive. They look
like SAEs, but the black stripe does not continue on the tail.

My only concern about getting SAEs is their eventual size. Mine are
"pan" size now. I have caught grunion that were no bigger. Other
than that I enjoy the SAEs right along with my Clown Loaches. They
often shoal together. They often settle on the large anubia leaves
looking like a band of fairies resting. It is so strange to see these
large fish resting on a leaf and the leaf not bending. SAEs, in my
experience are very social. I feel badly about the single one in the
10 gallon tank, but it seems satisfied with the 2 clowns, 2 platies
and one molly.

Be sure the black strip goes to the end of the tail.

dick

[Rocco Moretti]

Mean_Chlorine wrote:
> Thusly Elaine T > Spake Unto All:
>
>
>>You're right - an SAE is what you need. I've always found them to be
>>gentle and inquisitive rather than bullies.
>
>
> I would describe my SAE's as hyperactive, voracious, effective &
> highly social - but not really as "gentle"...

I'd agree. Cute little buggers, very interesting to watch feed, but
voracious is right. Most of the time mine would relax on leaves, on the
substrate, etc. leaving the rest of the tank alone, but throw a few
flakes in the water, and he'd be a terror, chasing away the cories from
the food. I only had one, so maybe they'd do better in a school.

As other's mentioned, they do get big. My LFS has one that's probably 5+
inches. It also has some that are ~3/4 inch. I'd start with smaller ones
and let them grow. (Mine was added big - he likely thought he was the
boss because he was the biggest thing in the tank.) Also note that
they'll only eat algae if not well fed - they much prefer flakes.

SAEs are great fish, but not for every tank. If all you want is
something to get rid of the BBA, I'd try other methods first. (Control
light & CO2 levels, watch your nutrients, possibly add floating plants,
etc.) If your SAEs are merely an "algae control device" to you, be sure
to find someone who will be willing to take them if they don't work out
in your tank *before* you purchase them.

[Dick]

On Wed, 01 Jun 2005 11:23:16 +0200, Mean_Chlorine
> wrote:

>Thusly Elaine T > Spake Unto All:
>
>>You're right - an SAE is what you need. I've always found them to be
>>gentle and inquisitive rather than bullies.
>
>I would describe my SAE's as hyperactive, voracious, effective &
>highly social - but not really as "gentle"...
>
>>I wonder if you got E. kalopteris (Flying fox) or C. oblongus (false
>>siamensis) rather than C. siamensis in the past. Both can be somewhat
>>more aggressive. http://www.thekrib.com/Fish/Algae-Eaters/ is the
>>classic ID article, and
>>http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/Fishindx/sae.htm has a great picture too.
>
>Well, it's possible, but some individuals of SAE are aggressive. I've
>had a couple of nasty ones.
>As long as one have a reasonable group of them they tend to dissipate
>their aggression mainly within the group (what people tend to think of
>as "play"), but the odd one may turn aggressive towards other species
>even if there are other siamensis present.
>
>Also, coverglass is a must, as the dominant SAE otherwise *will* chase
>the other SAE's out of the tank.
>
>
>I was also recently made aware that there's been some changes in the
>naming of these fish - the fish formerly known as Crossocheilus
>siamensis is now considered a synonym of Crossocheilus oblongus, which
>to me, frankly, seems strange, as the written description of C.
>oblongus does not match that of C. siamensis. When I first heard that
>I was sure it was some sort of mistake.
>
>However, Kottelat (2001. Fishes of Laos.) is the leading expert in the
>field and should know what he's talking about.
>
>I do note however that I am apparently not the only one who finds this
>strange - fishbase lists the reference and synonymy, but has retained
>the name Crossocheilus siamensis.
>

I bet you had a false SAE. Even the single SAE in a 10 gallon
community tank is very congenial as are the 8 in a 75 gallon and 6
more in a 29 gallon tank. Never had one "chased" out of a tank. Your
experience sounds totally different from my 2+ years experience.
However, I have read of the "false" SAEs being very aggressive.

I rank SAEs right up with my Clown Loaches. The two species even
shoal together and lead other species in their antics.

If we could only be sure we are actually talking two different breeds!

dick

[Mean_Chlorine]

Thusly Dick > Spake Unto All:

>I bet you had a false SAE.

Nope.

>If we could only be sure we are actually talking two different breeds!

This is one of the aggressive individuals:
http://filaman.uni-kiel.de/images/species/Crsia_u3.jpg

You can compare to this false siamensis (misidentified as a siamensis
by fishbase):
http://filaman.uni-kiel.de/images/species/Crsia_u4.jpg

>dick

[Karl]

nice picture

"Mean_Chlorine" > wrote in message
...
> Thusly Dick > Spake Unto All:
>
> >I bet you had a false SAE.
>
> Nope.
>
> >If we could only be sure we are actually talking two different breeds!
>
> This is one of the aggressive individuals:
> http://filaman.uni-kiel.de/images/species/Crsia_u3.jpg
>
> You can compare to this false siamensis (misidentified as a siamensis
> by fishbase):
> http://filaman.uni-kiel.de/images/species/Crsia_u4.jpg
>
> >dick
>

[Dick]

On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 03:33:17 +0200, Mean_Chlorine
> wrote:

>Thusly Dick > Spake Unto All:
>
>>I bet you had a false SAE.
>
>Nope.
>
>>If we could only be sure we are actually talking two different breeds!
>
>This is one of the aggressive individuals:
>http://filaman.uni-kiel.de/images/species/Crsia_u3.jpg

Unfortunately this picture proves nothing as the critical area of the
tail is all dark. It is the darkened area of tail where the stripe
does not extend in the False SAE.
>
>You can compare to this false siamensis (misidentified as a siamensis
>by fishbase):
>http://filaman.uni-kiel.de/images/species/Crsia_u4.jpg

I agree this is what I have seen before as a False SAE.

Even though the first picture proves nothing due to lighting, I am
sure you know the difference and I am not doubting your word.

So, the mystery of the difference of behavior remains. I am sorry
that your experience raises a doubt about this fish as a peaceful
community fish. I was so impressed with the first 9 I bought, I
boughtt 7 more and 2 years later I am still delighted. What really
bothers me is the aggressiveness you describe. Mine are so gentle.

Sometimes I drop algae tabs into the tanks. The SAEs obviously like
them, but more than one time I have seen an SAE back off to let
another smaller fish get to the tab.
>
>>dick

[Mean_Chlorine]

Thusly Dick > Spake Unto All:

>On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 03:33:17 +0200, Mean_Chlorine
> wrote:
>
>>Thusly Dick > Spake Unto All:
>>
>>>I bet you had a false SAE.
>>
>>Nope.
>>
>>>If we could only be sure we are actually talking two different breeds!
>>
>>This is one of the aggressive individuals:
>>http://filaman.uni-kiel.de/images/species/Crsia_u3.jpg
>
>Unfortunately this picture proves nothing as the critical area of the
>tail is all dark. It is the darkened area of tail where the stripe
>does not extend in the False SAE.

I think if you turn up the brightness of your monitor you will find
that the dark line does extend into the tail. Also note the absence of
a light-colored line above the dark side band.

(It gets a bit more complicated now that siamensis has been
synonymized with oblongus, because if THAT fish is oblongus, then what
is the false siamensis? It's clearly not the same species.)

>boughtt 7 more and 2 years later I am still delighted. What really
>bothers me is the aggressiveness you describe. Mine are so gentle.

As I said, I would not describe SAE's as gentle. Excessively
hyperactive, boisterous, the best algae eaters of all, highly social,
constantly chasing eachother or being involved in various dominance
displays, and some of the biggest gluttons one will ever hope to find
- that's how I would describe them.

They're not downright _bad_ like chinese algae eaters, even the
aggressive males(?) never actually hurt any other fish, unless one
counts the several subdominant siamensis which were chased until they
jumped out of the tank, but I can't see them as gentle.

> Sometimes I drop algae tabs into the tanks. The SAEs obviously like
>them, but more than one time I have seen an SAE back off to let
>another smaller fish get to the tab.

That really doesn't sound like my siamensis at all. My siamensis
jealously guarded tabs, to the point I had to drop several tabs in
different locations, and even then the dominant fish sped back and
forth chasing off all other fish that came close to any of the tabs.

[Rocco Moretti]

Dick wrote:
> On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 03:33:17 +0200, Mean_Chlorine
> > wrote:
>
>>Thusly Dick > Spake Unto All:
>>
>>>I bet you had a false SAE.
>>
>>Nope.
>>
>>>If we could only be sure we are actually talking two different breeds!
>>
>>This is one of the aggressive individuals:
>>http://filaman.uni-kiel.de/images/species/Crsia_u3.jpg
>
> Unfortunately this picture proves nothing as the critical area of the
> tail is all dark. It is the darkened area of tail where the stripe
> does not extend in the False SAE.

According to the article linked off of the Krib, there is more than just
the stripe to the end of the tail which distinguishes.

http://www.aquatic-gardeners.org/cyprinid.html

"Real" SAE's have rough edges on their black stripes, and no black
banding on their dorsal fin, in addition to having the black extend all
the way to the end of the tail.

I wouln't nessasarily call SAEs "agressive" (laughable to compare them
with african ciclids), but "docile" likely isn't accurate either,
especially when there is food in the water. Perhaps you've lucked out
and just gotten nice fish, or perhaps they've been together since
they've hatched and are a "family" unit.

[Liisa Sarakontu]

Dick > wrote in
:

>>http://filaman.uni-kiel.de/images/species/Crsia_u3.jpg
> Unfortunately this picture proves nothing as the critical area of the
> tail is all dark.

Just look at the face. That's a real SAE and not "false SAE".

> So, the mystery of the difference of behavior remains.

I haven't been following this discussion from the start, but I know
something about the behaviour of SAEs:

- sometimes they just start attacking other fish, normally angels, without
any good reason. That doesn't luckily happen often, but a "bad" fish will
never again turn good and it can't be kept any more with the species it is
harassing.

- sometimes some SAEs turn lunatic and just dart to and fro in the tank.
They don't attack other fish, but their hyperactive behaviour might disturb
peaceful fish. Normal SAEs dart around just rarely and get calm again
rather quickly.

- SAEs might fight with their own species. Hey, they are barbs and this is
what nearly all barbs do! Big enough school (at least 4 fish, preferably 6
or more) and big enough tank (more than 300 L/75 g) should help.

- lonely SAEs start attacking other fish. They are schooling fish, and they
need to have friends around to romp with.

Liisa

[Liisa Sarakontu]

Mean_Chlorine > wrote in
:

> (It gets a bit more complicated now that siamensis has been
> synonymized with oblongus, because if THAT fish is oblongus, then what
> is the false siamensis? It's clearly not the same species.)

"False SAE" has actually never been identified as C. oblongus, which is
just one of the species which has been suggested to be sold sometimes
instead of true SAEs. The fish which is normally known as "false SAE" is
Garra cambodgiensis, and it sometimes goes with its older name Garra
taeniata. It is one of the Garra sucker barbs, which is easy to see from
the shape of its lower lip.

Liisa

[Rocco Moretti]

Liisa Sarakontu wrote:
> Dick > wrote in
> :
>
>
>>>http://filaman.uni-kiel.de/images/species/Crsia_u3.jpg
>>
>>Unfortunately this picture proves nothing as the critical area of the
>>tail is all dark.
>
>
> Just look at the face. That's a real SAE and not "false SAE".

How do you distinguish them by looking at the face? What features are
you looking for?

[Liisa Sarakontu]

Rocco Moretti > wrote in
:

> How do you distinguish them by looking at the face? What features are
> you looking for?

Uh huh, how to explain minor facial differences? SAEs have more slender,
foxy face with looks somehow more "intelligent". Garras have a typical stop
(that angle between forehead and muzzle), although cambodgiensis have much
smaller than most Garras. The facial expression is stupider, more blunt-
nosed.

Liisa

[Dick]

On Fri, 3 Jun 2005 14:48:41 +0000 (UTC), Liisa Sarakontu
> wrote:

>Dick > wrote in
:
>
>>>http://filaman.uni-kiel.de/images/species/Crsia_u3.jpg
>> Unfortunately this picture proves nothing as the critical area of the
>> tail is all dark.
>
>Just look at the face. That's a real SAE and not "false SAE".
>
>> So, the mystery of the difference of behavior remains.
>
>I haven't been following this discussion from the start, but I know
>something about the behaviour of SAEs:
>
>- sometimes they just start attacking other fish, normally angels, without
>any good reason. That doesn't luckily happen often, but a "bad" fish will
>never again turn good and it can't be kept any more with the species it is
>harassing.
>
>- sometimes some SAEs turn lunatic and just dart to and fro in the tank.
>They don't attack other fish, but their hyperactive behaviour might disturb
>peaceful fish. Normal SAEs dart around just rarely and get calm again
>rather quickly.

Now this behavior I have seen in my own tanks, but then my Blue
Gouramis do the same and have more bulk.
>
>- SAEs might fight with their own species. Hey, they are barbs and this is
>what nearly all barbs do! Big enough school (at least 4 fish, preferably 6
>or more) and big enough tank (more than 300 L/75 g) should help.
>
>- lonely SAEs start attacking other fish. They are schooling fish, and they
>need to have friends around to romp with.

I have a single SAE in a 10 gallon tank, it has never attacked another
fish. I am also surprised it does not school with the 2 Clown Loaches
in the same tank. Even though my 75 gallon has 8 SAEs and 6 Clown
Loaches, the 2 species shoal. They seem comfortable with each other.

What is really neat is to watch 75% of the community fish shoal in one
corner going up and down. How they avoid bumping into each other is
amazing. I have not seen the same behavior in my 29 gallon tank which
has 3 Clowns and 6 SAEs.

I can understand human behavior varying so widely, but it is clear our
fish populations act with quite different behavior.

Fortunately, most of you can return a fish to your LFS. I have to
take what is shipped to me. It sounds as though I have been very
lucky.

dick