Newbie -- intro & Q re: water parameters -- kinda long

[coolchinchilla]

Hi. I've been lurking for a week, so I thought I'd introduce
myself. I have a 15-gallon community tank with 2 danios, 2 neon
tetras and two pygmy cories. I LOVE my tank.

I set the tank up a year ago and I've had some troubles with fish
dying. My juli cories died and my neon tetras died. I even had a
danio die! I know many people see them as "just fish" but they are
living creatures and I made a commitment to take care of them so I
always feel bad when they die.

I'm hoping to describe how my fish tank is setup, water parameters,
etc., in hopes that someone can tell me what to do better or
differently.

Here are my water parameters: (I use dip strips so these aren't too
precise)
Nitrite: 0ppm
Nitrate: between 0 and 20 ppm
Total Hardness: 75 ppm (soft)
Total alkalinity: more than 300ppm
pH: more than 8.4
Ammonia: "safe" - I use an ammonia alerter on the side of the tank.

I change the water (25% weekly), I put in the least amount of food
possible so I don't overfeed. I use tap water with declorinator
drops. My area has very hard water so I have a water softener. I
have a lot of green algae -- my two pygmy cories can't keep up. I
use a Whisper filter (20-40 gallon size) with charcoal. I have a 4"
airstone. The tank is short and long so there's a lot of water
surface. I have a flouresent bulb that I keep on for 10-12 hrs per
day. I'm not consistent with turning the lights on and off at the
same time. I feed them Lifecycle Spectrum for small fish as a
staple and occasionally I give them TetraMin flakes for variety. I
put StressZyme and StressCoat in the tank when I change the water.
I rinse out the filter in aquarium water and replace the charcoal
monthly.

From what I can tell, my nitrogen cycle is doing ok, but I don't
know why my water is so alkaline and I can't get an accurate measure
on it. Even after I change part of the water the test shows it's
still off the charts. I don't understand the effect of high pH on
fish. What does it do to them? Any links? Am I slowly poisoning
everyone in my tank? I don't know how to lower the pH other than
using chemicals. But I've read that using chemicals over the long
term is not wise and very difficult to maintain.

I have a decent LFS plus I've found good suppliers online. I don't
have a lot of money to spend on this but I will spend some for sure
to improve the conditions in my tank.

Thanks in advance.

Linda and the zoo
Meet the rest of the zoo: a cat, a parrot, a canary, a bunny and six
chinchillas. :-) The bunny is the boss. She chases everyone. If
she could swim she'd jump in the tank and chase the fish too.

[Dick]

On Tue, 07 Jun 2005 23:12:11 -0500, coolchinchilla
> wrote:

>Hi. I've been lurking for a week, so I thought I'd introduce
>myself. I have a 15-gallon community tank with 2 danios, 2 neon
>tetras and two pygmy cories. I LOVE my tank.
>
>I set the tank up a year ago and I've had some troubles with fish
>dying. My juli cories died and my neon tetras died. I even had a
>danio die! I know many people see them as "just fish" but they are
>living creatures and I made a commitment to take care of them so I
>always feel bad when they die.
>
>I'm hoping to describe how my fish tank is setup, water parameters,
>etc., in hopes that someone can tell me what to do better or
>differently.
>
>Here are my water parameters: (I use dip strips so these aren't too
>precise)
>Nitrite: 0ppm
>Nitrate: between 0 and 20 ppm
>Total Hardness: 75 ppm (soft)
>Total alkalinity: more than 300ppm
>pH: more than 8.4
>Ammonia: "safe" - I use an ammonia alerter on the side of the tank.
>
>I change the water (25% weekly), I put in the least amount of food
>possible so I don't overfeed. I use tap water with declorinator
>drops. My area has very hard water so I have a water softener. I
>have a lot of green algae -- my two pygmy cories can't keep up. I
>use a Whisper filter (20-40 gallon size) with charcoal. I have a 4"
>airstone. The tank is short and long so there's a lot of water
>surface. I have a flouresent bulb that I keep on for 10-12 hrs per
>day. I'm not consistent with turning the lights on and off at the
>same time. I feed them Lifecycle Spectrum for small fish as a
>staple and occasionally I give them TetraMin flakes for variety. I
>put StressZyme and StressCoat in the tank when I change the water.
>I rinse out the filter in aquarium water and replace the charcoal
>monthly.
>
> From what I can tell, my nitrogen cycle is doing ok, but I don't
>know why my water is so alkaline and I can't get an accurate measure
>on it. Even after I change part of the water the test shows it's
>still off the charts. I don't understand the effect of high pH on
>fish. What does it do to them? Any links? Am I slowly poisoning
>everyone in my tank? I don't know how to lower the pH other than
>using chemicals. But I've read that using chemicals over the long
>term is not wise and very difficult to maintain.
>
>I have a decent LFS plus I've found good suppliers online. I don't
>have a lot of money to spend on this but I will spend some for sure
>to improve the conditions in my tank.
>
>Thanks in advance.
>
>Linda and the zoo
>Meet the rest of the zoo: a cat, a parrot, a canary, a bunny and six
>chinchillas. :-) The bunny is the boss. She chases everyone. If
>she could swim she'd jump in the tank and chase the fish too.


One thing you don't mention is the pH of the tap water. If it is
lower than the tank reading, you can increase your partial water
changes until the tap and tank read the same.

Adding any chemicals to adjust water is risky. I killed a number of
fish within minutes when I added too much acid to the water to lower
the pH. My fish have all accepted the 7.8 coming from the tank.

You mention no current problems. I strongly believe in "if it ain't
broken, don't fix it" unless you have something special you want to
change.

For example, if you wanted to have certain fish or special plants,
then there are things to change and people with experience available.
If you like your tank as is I would leave well enough alone.

dick

[NetMax]

"coolchinchilla" > wrote in message
...
> Hi. I've been lurking for a week, so I thought I'd introduce myself.
> I have a 15-gallon community tank with 2 danios, 2 neon tetras and two
> pygmy cories. I LOVE my tank.
>
> I set the tank up a year ago and I've had some troubles with fish
> dying. My juli cories died and my neon tetras died. I even had a
> danio die! I know many people see them as "just fish" but they are
> living creatures and I made a commitment to take care of them so I
> always feel bad when they die.
>
> I'm hoping to describe how my fish tank is setup, water parameters,
> etc., in hopes that someone can tell me what to do better or
> differently.
>
> Here are my water parameters: (I use dip strips so these aren't too
> precise)
> Nitrite: 0ppm
> Nitrate: between 0 and 20 ppm
> Total Hardness: 75 ppm (soft)
> Total alkalinity: more than 300ppm
> pH: more than 8.4
> Ammonia: "safe" - I use an ammonia alerter on the side of the tank.
>
> I change the water (25% weekly), I put in the least amount of food
> possible so I don't overfeed. I use tap water with declorinator drops.
> My area has very hard water so I have a water softener. I have a lot
> of green algae -- my two pygmy cories can't keep up. I use a Whisper
> filter (20-40 gallon size) with charcoal. I have a 4" airstone. The
> tank is short and long so there's a lot of water surface. I have a
> flouresent bulb that I keep on for 10-12 hrs per day. I'm not
> consistent with turning the lights on and off at the same time. I feed
> them Lifecycle Spectrum for small fish as a staple and occasionally I
> give them TetraMin flakes for variety. I put StressZyme and StressCoat
> in the tank when I change the water. I rinse out the filter in aquarium
> water and replace the charcoal monthly.
>
> From what I can tell, my nitrogen cycle is doing ok, but I don't know
> why my water is so alkaline and I can't get an accurate measure on it.
> Even after I change part of the water the test shows it's still off the
> charts. I don't understand the effect of high pH on fish. What does
> it do to them? Any links? Am I slowly poisoning everyone in my tank?
> I don't know how to lower the pH other than using chemicals. But I've
> read that using chemicals over the long term is not wise and very
> difficult to maintain.
>
> I have a decent LFS plus I've found good suppliers online. I don't
> have a lot of money to spend on this but I will spend some for sure to
> improve the conditions in my tank.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Linda and the zoo


What I can deduce is as follows:

With an alkalinity of 300ppm (about 17dkH), your hardness will also be at
least 17dgH, so your softener is leaving 75ppm (4dgH). There is a small
clue here, as softeners usually take you to about 2 dgH or less, so
either your softener's resin beads are exhausted, or your water is
actually harder than your brine tank rinse cycle of the beads, or your
softener is just too small for the job. Overall, it suggests your water
is at least if not harder than 17dgH. Also note that for the softener to
remove 13dgH of calcium, it has to add more than an equal amount of salt
(that's the way these things work). With a pH of over 8.4, this will be
your tap pH as well as your tank (with 17dkH of buffering, I wouldn't
expect otherwise).

Still with me? Less technical now. Your water is at an extreme of pH
(and probably salinity) which will make life to laborious for fish which
come from the opposite extreme (especially small fish like Corys, Neons,
Danios etc). I don't recommend using any chemicals (actually they would
be relatively ineffective as your buffer of 17dkH is so high). Depending
on the water they were born in, your results will vary using sof****er
fish in your set of parameters.

The good news? I know people who buy distilled water and then add
chemicals to get almost exactly what you have for free. You now just
need to match fish to it. I would look into the dwarf cichlids from Lake
Tanganyika (ie: Julies) and Lake Malawi, or lake fish from America (some
Killis) or Australia/New Zealand (rainbowfishes), or even some brackish
water fish. With the right fish, you could even use raw water (taken
from before the softener) or a mixture (every 2nd water change,
alternate, until your have the dgH where you want it, with the minimum of
salt. Alternately look into fish which come from more neutral waters as
some will adapt very well.

Incidentally, my own water is 8.2 pH, 15.5dkH and typically 16dgH too.
The only sof****er riverine fish I've been able to maintain is a couple
of loach species. Brackish and African mbuna do great, but many would do
badly in only a 15g tank, so use your discretion in regards to their
eventual size and territorial needs.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[coolchinchilla]

Dick wrote:
> On Tue, 07 Jun 2005 23:12:11 -0500, coolchinchilla
> > wrote:
>
>
>>Hi. I've been lurking for a week, so I thought I'd introduce
>>myself. I have a 15-gallon community tank with 2 danios, 2 neon
>>tetras and two pygmy cories. I LOVE my tank.
>>
>>I set the tank up a year ago and I've had some troubles with fish
>>dying. <snip>
>>
>>I'm hoping to describe how my fish tank is setup, water parameters,
>>etc., in hopes that someone can tell me what to do better or
>>differently.
>>
>>Here are my water parameters: (I use dip strips so these aren't too
>>precise)
>>Nitrite: 0ppm
>>Nitrate: between 0 and 20 ppm
>>Total Hardness: 75 ppm (soft)
>>Total alkalinity: more than 300ppm
>>pH: more than 8.4
>>Ammonia: "safe" - I use an ammonia alerter on the side of the tank.
>>
>><snip>
>>
>>From what I can tell, my nitrogen cycle is doing ok, but I don't
>>know why my water is so alkaline <snip>
>>
>>Thanks in advance.
>>
>>Linda and the zoo

> One thing you don't mention is the pH of the tap water.

I tested directly from my tap and it is just as alkaline so it comes
from the source. I'm wondering if my fish are dying because of the
pH or is it something else.

Thanks.
Linda and the zoo.

[coolchinchilla]

NetMax wrote:
> "coolchinchilla" > wrote in message
> ...
> <snip
>>I set the tank up a year ago and I've had some troubles with fish
>>dying. <snip>
>>
>>
>>Here are my water parameters: (I use dip strips so these aren't too
>>precise)
>>Nitrite: 0ppm
>>Nitrate: between 0 and 20 ppm
>>Total Hardness: 75 ppm (soft)
>>Total alkalinity: more than 300ppm
>>pH: more than 8.4
>>Ammonia: "safe" - I use an ammonia alerter on the side of the tank.
>><snip>
>>
>>From what I can tell, my nitrogen cycle is doing ok, but I don't know
>>why my water is so alkaline and I can't get an accurate measure on it.
>>Even after I change part of the water the test shows it's still off the
>>charts. I don't understand the effect of high pH on fish. What does
>>it do to them? Any links? Am I slowly poisoning everyone in my tank?
>>I don't know how to lower the pH other than using chemicals. But I've
>>read that using chemicals over the long term is not wise and very
>>difficult to maintain.
>>

>>Thanks in advance.
>>
>>Linda and the zoo
>
>
>
> What I can deduce is as follows:
>
> With an alkalinity of 300ppm (about 17dkH), your hardness will also be at
> least 17dgH, so your softener is leaving 75ppm (4dgH). There is a small
> clue here, as softeners usually take you to about 2 dgH or less, so
> either your softener's resin beads are exhausted, or your water is
> actually harder than your brine tank rinse cycle of the beads, or your
> softener is just too small for the job. Overall, it suggests your water
> is at least if not harder than 17dgH. Also note that for the softener to
> remove 13dgH of calcium, it has to add more than an equal amount of salt
> (that's the way these things work). With a pH of over 8.4, this will be
> your tap pH as well as your tank (with 17dkH of buffering, I wouldn't
> expect otherwise).
>
> Still with me? Less technical now. Your water is at an extreme of pH
> (and probably salinity) which will make life to laborious for fish which
> come from the opposite extreme (especially small fish like Corys, Neons,
> Danios etc). I don't recommend using any chemicals (actually they would
> be relatively ineffective as your buffer of 17dkH is so high). Depending
> on the water they were born in, your results will vary using sof****er
> fish in your set of parameters.
>
> The good news? I know people who buy distilled water and then add
> chemicals to get almost exactly what you have for free. You now just
> need to match fish to it. I would look into the dwarf cichlids from Lake
> Tanganyika (ie: Julies) and Lake Malawi, or lake fish from America (some
> Killis) or Australia/New Zealand (rainbowfishes), or even some brackish
> water fish. With the right fish, you could even use raw water (taken
> from before the softener) or a mixture (every 2nd water change,
> alternate, until your have the dgH where you want it, with the minimum of
> salt. Alternately look into fish which come from more neutral waters as
> some will adapt very well.
>
> Incidentally, my own water is 8.2 pH, 15.5dkH and typically 16dgH too.
> The only sof****er riverine fish I've been able to maintain is a couple
> of loach species. Brackish and African mbuna do great, but many would do
> badly in only a 15g tank, so use your discretion in regards to their
> eventual size and territorial needs.

Thanks! I never thought to look at my water softener. I just
checked it and scheduled a regeneration tonight.

Linda and the zoo.

[Steve]

coolchinchilla wrote:
> Hi. I've been lurking for a week, so I thought I'd introduce myself. I
> have a 15-gallon community tank with 2 danios, 2 neon tetras and two
> pygmy cories. I LOVE my tank.
>
> I set the tank up a year ago and I've had some troubles with fish

> Total Hardness: 75 ppm (soft)
> Total alkalinity: more than 300ppm

Not sure how carbonate hardness (alkalinity) can be higher than total
hardness (carbonate hardness + sulphates, etc?). For what it's worth, I
had good success with hard well/ tap water in the past, as described below.

I used to live on a country road and had a private well in a limestone
aquifer. We did not use a water softener, because we had heard that
contributes sodium to the (drinking) water, leading to increased risk of
heart attack.

I set up my 90-gal plant aquarium using our well water water, with hard
water-tolerant plants (Val, hornwort, certain crypts, swords, rotala,
java moss, water sprite) and fish (mainly live bearers and rainbow
fish). Bristlenose plecos, neon tetras, zebra danios and clown loaches
did all right, too.

Our well water had a pH of about 8, "hardness" by test kit (alkalinity,
carbonate hardness?) of about 250-300 ppm, negligible nitrate (tested by
health department) and a fine taste. The aquarium settled at about pH
7.3 - 7.5 and "hardness" of about 130 ppm. Carbonates would precipitate
out on the Valisneria during the day as they photosyntesized, which
likely accounted for the hardness/ pH of the aquarium being lower than
the well water.

This hard source water aquarium was very successful, perhaps more
successful than the same tank is now, when we have quite soft city
water. Reading these newsgroups I'm glad I never used commercial
buffers, etc. I was tempted, though, and did some experiments with
boiled make-up water that didn't seem worth the trouble.
Steve