WHY OH WHY DID I LISTEN??? (LONG)

[Mr-Moonlight]

I may just have managed to crash my tank in one fell swoop...

My Setup:

45uk gal
27Kg LR
Chrushed shell Substrate (GOD HOW I WISH I'D NEVER PUT IT IN!)
2 Mushroom Corals
1 Pulse Coral
1 Koko Worm
1 Feather Duster
1 Copperband Butterfly
2 Maron Clowns
1 DEAD Lipstick Tang (ok ok I've taken it out)

This past 2 weeks my Nitrates have been climbing fast. No other reading
are out of spec, nitrites are 0 and Ammonia is .25.

So needless to say I was concerned. I asked the advice of a friend of
mine who has been keeping marine MUCH longer than I and he said I
should consider taking my rock out and cleaning the debris off in a
bucket of salt water and then putting it back in. He said that if I
have rotting debris accumulating in my tank it would get rid and my
levels would drop.

I was skeptical but last night I did it. How STUPID could I have been??
My tank quickly clouded over (from moning the rock and substrate) and
was soon so full of floating particles couldnt even see in it!! My
fish were freaked! I changed as much water as I had (25% ish) and had
to leave it.

This morning my Tang is dead, my clowns are NOT happy and my Butterfly
is breathing out the top of the tank.

Worst thing is I have had to go away for work today and it will be
another 12 hours before I can do any more work on it.

any ideas of what I can do? I think I'll hoover out the substrate over
the next few changes (providing my tank doesn't crash today) and let it
all settle...

any thoughts?

Dan

[lg]

"Mr-Moonlight" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> I may just have managed to crash my tank in one fell swoop...
>
> My Setup:
>
> 45uk gal
> 27Kg LR
> Chrushed shell Substrate (GOD HOW I WISH I'D NEVER PUT IT IN!)
> 2 Mushroom Corals
> 1 Pulse Coral
> 1 Koko Worm
> 1 Feather Duster
> 1 Copperband Butterfly
> 2 Maron Clowns
> 1 DEAD Lipstick Tang (ok ok I've taken it out)
>
> This past 2 weeks my Nitrates have been climbing fast. No other reading
> are out of spec, nitrites are 0 and Ammonia is .25.
>
> So needless to say I was concerned. I asked the advice of a friend of
> mine who has been keeping marine MUCH longer than I and he said I
> should consider taking my rock out and cleaning the debris off in a
> bucket of salt water and then putting it back in. He said that if I
> have rotting debris accumulating in my tank it would get rid and my
> levels would drop.
>
> I was skeptical but last night I did it. How STUPID could I have been??
> My tank quickly clouded over (from moning the rock and substrate) and
> was soon so full of floating particles couldnt even see in it!! My
> fish were freaked! I changed as much water as I had (25% ish) and had
> to leave it.
>
> This morning my Tang is dead, my clowns are NOT happy and my Butterfly
> is breathing out the top of the tank.
>
> Worst thing is I have had to go away for work today and it will be
> another 12 hours before I can do any more work on it.
>
> any ideas of what I can do? I think I'll hoover out the substrate over
> the next few changes (providing my tank doesn't crash today) and let it
> all settle...
>
> any thoughts?
>
> Dan

>

If your tank is established....you should have 0 Ammonia.

If your tank is newish......it may have trouble dealing with the
disturbance.
If is is say......4 months+ old.....you may be right.

Either way JUST LEAVE IT ALONE!

It will clear.

I have only crushed coral and live rock. I have 0,0,0 of the three( A, N,
N )

I do run a de nitrator. Home made.....good stuff.

Beats the hell out of water changes.

I treat Phosphates with small balls of steel wool every two weeks.

I have fish, coral and inverts in a 160lt (40gal) tank

If you want to know any more......

pls advise

lg

[Joe V.]

> I do run a de nitrator. Home made.....good stuff.
>

Could you elaborate more on this?

Thanks!

[George Patterson]

Mr-Moonlight wrote:
>
> any thoughts?

I would run 100% water change immediately. Unseasoned water is better than the
poisonous stuff you have now. That will buy you time for a permanent fix.

George Patterson
Why do men's hearts beat faster, knees get weak, throats become dry,
and they think irrationally when a woman wears leather clothing?
Because she smells like a new truck.

[George Patterson]

lg wrote:
>
> I do run a de nitrator. Home made.....good stuff.

Please provide more details. I like the idea.

George Patterson
Why do men's hearts beat faster, knees get weak, throats become dry,
and they think irrationally when a woman wears leather clothing?
Because she smells like a new truck.

[BigMike]

got any plans for the homemade denitrator that you are running?
"lg" > wrote in message
u...
>
> "Mr-Moonlight" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> > I may just have managed to crash my tank in one fell swoop...
> >
> > My Setup:
> >
> > 45uk gal
> > 27Kg LR
> > Chrushed shell Substrate (GOD HOW I WISH I'D NEVER PUT IT IN!)
> > 2 Mushroom Corals
> > 1 Pulse Coral
> > 1 Koko Worm
> > 1 Feather Duster
> > 1 Copperband Butterfly
> > 2 Maron Clowns
> > 1 DEAD Lipstick Tang (ok ok I've taken it out)
> >
> > This past 2 weeks my Nitrates have been climbing fast. No other reading
> > are out of spec, nitrites are 0 and Ammonia is .25.
> >
> > So needless to say I was concerned. I asked the advice of a friend of
> > mine who has been keeping marine MUCH longer than I and he said I
> > should consider taking my rock out and cleaning the debris off in a
> > bucket of salt water and then putting it back in. He said that if I
> > have rotting debris accumulating in my tank it would get rid and my
> > levels would drop.
> >
> > I was skeptical but last night I did it. How STUPID could I have been??
> > My tank quickly clouded over (from moning the rock and substrate) and
> > was soon so full of floating particles couldnt even see in it!! My
> > fish were freaked! I changed as much water as I had (25% ish) and had
> > to leave it.
> >
> > This morning my Tang is dead, my clowns are NOT happy and my Butterfly
> > is breathing out the top of the tank.
> >
> > Worst thing is I have had to go away for work today and it will be
> > another 12 hours before I can do any more work on it.
> >
> > any ideas of what I can do? I think I'll hoover out the substrate over
> > the next few changes (providing my tank doesn't crash today) and let it
> > all settle...
> >
> > any thoughts?
> >
> > Dan
>
> >
>
> If your tank is established....you should have 0 Ammonia.
>
> If your tank is newish......it may have trouble dealing with the
> disturbance.
> If is is say......4 months+ old.....you may be right.
>
> Either way JUST LEAVE IT ALONE!
>
> It will clear.
>
> I have only crushed coral and live rock. I have 0,0,0 of the three( A, N,
> N )
>
> I do run a de nitrator. Home made.....good stuff.
>
> Beats the hell out of water changes.
>
> I treat Phosphates with small balls of steel wool every two weeks.
>
> I have fish, coral and inverts in a 160lt (40gal) tank
>
> If you want to know any more......
>
> pls advise
>
> lg
>
>

[BigMike]

wouldn't a 100% water change cause the tank to cycle again?
"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:EzFpe.12581$MX2.2547@trndny03...
> Mr-Moonlight wrote:
> >
> > any thoughts?
>
> I would run 100% water change immediately. Unseasoned water is better than
the
> poisonous stuff you have now. That will buy you time for a permanent fix.
>
> George Patterson
> Why do men's hearts beat faster, knees get weak, throats become dry,
> and they think irrationally when a woman wears leather clothing?
> Because she smells like a new truck.

[Mr-Moonlight]

I decided to take this advice...

I've left it alone and things seem ok.

My clowns are feeding, My butterfly is too....

Tank has steadied out...

my chemical readings are the same...

Ammonia= 0.25
Nitrite= 0
Nitrate= 20

There HAS to be something I can do here...

I will do another water change tonight (20% at most) and see how it
goes...

More thoughts?

[lg]

How I made my de-nitrator.......

Cut a 3" length of 4 or 5 inch PVC pipe.

Using PVC glue.....glue a cap on on end. Then glue something to make a base
for it to stand on. e.g. use silicone to stick a square piece of 3/4 " ply.
Anything will do. Just make the tube stand up-right.

Fill the tube 1/2 full with Bioballs, smashed up floor tiles, anything with
a large surface area. Put any bio balls at the bottom and use the smashed
tile to hold them down as they float.

Cut the plug off a very small power head ( near the plug but leaving about
6" of lead).....and put the power head into the tube.

Fill the remainder of the tube with more smashed tiles.

Drill 3 holes in another end cap. One big enough for the power lead to pass
through and the other two for som 10mm PVC tubing.

Secure the end cap to the tube and pass the power cord out through the
tube. Join the plug back on. ( get a friend to doit if you can't solder and
re-insulate properly )

Now finally......

Get 50' of 10mm PVC tubing and wrap all but 8 feet around the outside of the
PVC tubing. Stick on end into one of the holes in the top of the 5 inch tube
filled with the tiles etc. Stick the other end into the outlets of one of
your power heads. ( not at this stage though. this is actually the final
step)

Get 8' of 10mm PVC tubing and stick it into the last hole in the 5 " tube
and the other end into the tank.

Suck or syphyn tank water into our de-nitrator then block off the tubes,
plug it into the wall and run it for 3 weeks. You can prime your new
de-nitrator with NITRATREDUKTOR. This makes bulk Nitrate for the bacteria to
grow and consume.

NOW..... un block the two tubes.

Put the one leading to the 'coil' into a power head and the other into the
tank. Use a small tap on this one to get ONE drop per second. No lees and no
more.

Within 3 weeks you will NEVER have to worry about Nitrates again.

If you would like to know more....I can get pics or diagrams for you

ta

lg
"BigMike" <iyam@whatiyam> wrote in message
...
> got any plans for the homemade denitrator that you are running?
> "lg" > wrote in message
> u...
> >
> > "Mr-Moonlight" > wrote in message
> > ups.com...
> > > I may just have managed to crash my tank in one fell swoop...
> > >
> > > My Setup:
> > >
> > > 45uk gal
> > > 27Kg LR
> > > Chrushed shell Substrate (GOD HOW I WISH I'D NEVER PUT IT IN!)
> > > 2 Mushroom Corals
> > > 1 Pulse Coral
> > > 1 Koko Worm
> > > 1 Feather Duster
> > > 1 Copperband Butterfly
> > > 2 Maron Clowns
> > > 1 DEAD Lipstick Tang (ok ok I've taken it out)
> > >
> > > This past 2 weeks my Nitrates have been climbing fast. No other
reading
> > > are out of spec, nitrites are 0 and Ammonia is .25.
> > >
> > > So needless to say I was concerned. I asked the advice of a friend of
> > > mine who has been keeping marine MUCH longer than I and he said I
> > > should consider taking my rock out and cleaning the debris off in a
> > > bucket of salt water and then putting it back in. He said that if I
> > > have rotting debris accumulating in my tank it would get rid and my
> > > levels would drop.
> > >
> > > I was skeptical but last night I did it. How STUPID could I have
been??
> > > My tank quickly clouded over (from moning the rock and substrate) and
> > > was soon so full of floating particles couldnt even see in it!! My
> > > fish were freaked! I changed as much water as I had (25% ish) and had
> > > to leave it.
> > >
> > > This morning my Tang is dead, my clowns are NOT happy and my Butterfly
> > > is breathing out the top of the tank.
> > >
> > > Worst thing is I have had to go away for work today and it will be
> > > another 12 hours before I can do any more work on it.
> > >
> > > any ideas of what I can do? I think I'll hoover out the substrate over
> > > the next few changes (providing my tank doesn't crash today) and let
it
> > > all settle...
> > >
> > > any thoughts?
> > >
> > > Dan
> >
> > >
> >
> > If your tank is established....you should have 0 Ammonia.
> >
> > If your tank is newish......it may have trouble dealing with the
> > disturbance.
> > If is is say......4 months+ old.....you may be right.
> >
> > Either way JUST LEAVE IT ALONE!
> >
> > It will clear.
> >
> > I have only crushed coral and live rock. I have 0,0,0 of the three( A,
N,
> > N )
> >
> > I do run a de nitrator. Home made.....good stuff.
> >
> > Beats the hell out of water changes.
> >
> > I treat Phosphates with small balls of steel wool every two weeks.
> >
> > I have fish, coral and inverts in a 160lt (40gal) tank
> >
> > If you want to know any more......
> >
> > pls advise
> >
> > lg
> >
> >
>
>

[Mislav]

>I treat Phosphates with small balls of steel wool every two weeks.

Could you elaborate this?
Are you using just plain steel wool used for scrubbing? Did you see any
downsides to using it? Do you measure phosphates before you put steel wool
and after? How long do you keep it in tank?

Mislav

[George Patterson]

BigMike wrote:
> wouldn't a 100% water change cause the tank to cycle again?

No. The nitrifying bacteria live mainly in substrate or other media. Small
animals in live rock and sand and filter feeders are also responsible for
handling the cycle. Your only problem is that unseasoned water may kill off a
few of the more delicate creatures.

George Patterson
Why do men's hearts beat faster, knees get weak, throats become dry,
and they think irrationally when a woman wears leather clothing?
Because she smells like a new truck.

[Joe V.]

Pictures would be great, if you dont mind.

Thakns!

"lg" > wrote in message
u...
> How I made my de-nitrator.......
>
> Cut a 3" length of 4 or 5 inch PVC pipe.
>
> Using PVC glue.....glue a cap on on end. Then glue something to make a
base
> for it to stand on. e.g. use silicone to stick a square piece of 3/4 "
ply.
> Anything will do. Just make the tube stand up-right.
>
> Fill the tube 1/2 full with Bioballs, smashed up floor tiles, anything
with
> a large surface area. Put any bio balls at the bottom and use the smashed
> tile to hold them down as they float.
>
> Cut the plug off a very small power head ( near the plug but leaving about
> 6" of lead).....and put the power head into the tube.
<SNIP>

[lg]

"Mislav" > wrote in message ...
> >I treat Phosphates with small balls of steel wool every two weeks.
>
> Could you elaborate this?
> Are you using just plain steel wool used for scrubbing? Did you see any
> downsides to using it? Do you measure phosphates before you put steel wool
> and after? How long do you keep it in tank?
>
> Mislav
>
>

All I do is roll up a small ball of steel wool about 1cm in dia. and drop it
in.

The 1st time I did this the tank went a bit cloudy.....this is good as it
lets you know the phosphates are being binded.

Every 2 or 3 weeks I drop a small ball in. Every time I test for
phos........there are none. No other side effects.

lg

[lg]

"Mislav" > wrote in message ...
> >I treat Phosphates with small balls of steel wool every two weeks.
>
> Could you elaborate this?
> Are you using just plain steel wool used for scrubbing? Did you see any
> downsides to using it? Do you measure phosphates before you put steel wool
> and after? How long do you keep it in tank?
>
> Mislav
>
>

By they way.....the steel ball 'rusts' away to nothing in about 48 hours.

It is the iron oxide that deals with the phosphates. Nothing remains to
remove.

lg

[ron]

George Patterson wrote:
> BigMike wrote:
>
>> wouldn't a 100% water change cause the tank to cycle again?
>
>
> No. The nitrifying bacteria live mainly in substrate or other media.
> Small animals in live rock and sand and filter feeders are also
> responsible for handling the cycle. Your only problem is that unseasoned
> water may kill off a few of the more delicate creatures.
>
> George Patterson
> Why do men's hearts beat faster, knees get weak, throats become dry,
> and they think irrationally when a woman wears leather clothing?
> Because she smells like a new truck.


SO how long have you been using the steel wool method? Do you worry
about where the phosphate goes? Is it in your tank in a different form
only to be re-released again in the future?

[ron]

lg wrote:

> "Mislav" > wrote in message ...
>
>>>I treat Phosphates with small balls of steel wool every two weeks.
>>
>>Could you elaborate this?
>>Are you using just plain steel wool used for scrubbing? Did you see any
>>downsides to using it? Do you measure phosphates before you put steel wool
>>and after? How long do you keep it in tank?
>>
>>Mislav
>>
>>
>
>
> By they way.....the steel ball 'rusts' away to nothing in about 48 hours.
>
> It is the iron oxide that deals with the phosphates. Nothing remains to
> remove.
>
> lg
>
>
So how long have you been doing this? Are you certain that the
phosphates cant be re-released later?

[George Patterson]

ron wrote:
>
> SO how long have you been using the steel wool method?

Uh .... I think you have me confused with someone else......

George Patterson
Why do men's hearts beat faster, knees get weak, throats become dry,
and they think irrationally when a woman wears leather clothing?
Because she smells like a new truck.

[CheezWiz]

Quick googleing:

"
a chemistry question
Dear Mr. Bob Fenner,
First of all, I would like to thank you for answering my last question a few
weeks ago pertaining to Cyanobacteria. Of course your advice worked and was
appreciated. Now I have a new question of a little bit more technical
nature.
A year or so ago, I was in a chemistry class at my university and learned
that Iron would bond to phosphate in much the same manner that it bonds to
calcium carbonate and would precipitate out of solution. This idea appealed
to me very much and immediately went home to conduct an experiment. I set up
a ten gallon aquarium and with a whisper hang on filter. Then I filled it
with water loaded with phosphate. I am not certain as to how much phosphate
as it was off the scale of my dry tab test. Next I let the temperature
equilibrate at 78 degrees and inserted a fair sized piece of steel wool in
the
back of the filter. This is where it gets interesting. I checked the
phosphate again 12 hours later. There was no change but the water was cloudy
with a whitish sediment forming on the bottom. 36 hours later I checked the
water and it was devoid of any phosphate which my test would detect and the
water was clearing. I have since asked a host of professors from chemists to
biologists and even a geologist about the potential effects of either the
precipitate or the iron on any living organisms in the tank. Most of them
were willing to talk to me about possibilities but none could give me a hard
answer and all were too busy to look into it any further.
I have since heard of a commercial filtration system which uses iron as a
phosphate remover in addition to activated carbon but that was only in
passing
and I couldn't find out any details about it. I am hoping that you might be
familiar with this idea. I would greatly appreciate any information you may
be able to pass on as I am too poor to experiment with fish on my own and I
am
not very keen on wasting a perfectly healthy fish or invert by accident. I
hope that I am not just wasting your time or mine but this sounds like it
would be a cheaper alternative to commercial phosphate removers if it really
works.
Sincerely, Your avid supporter and Fan, Byron Toothman
>>
Byron, you raise many important (at least to me) and interesting points. As
a practitioner of the pet-fish arts and sciences as well as an ex-HS
Chemistry/Physics and Bio. teacher (and avid reader since on the subjects),
I am familiar with a bit of what you're referring to: Yes ferrous ion will
precipitate out phosphate (hydrolysable, about the only form pet-fish
hobbyists are concerned about), and No, most all the Phosphate removed in
this fashion is gone... made insoluble. But, a bunch of buts here... Both
some phosphorus and iron are necessary to all living things hobbyists
like... but not too much of either one... Not to be seen as trying to appear
elusive/evasive, there are other bits of the big puzzle to be lost by
over-supplying iron... in whatever valence state... and a few other reasons
(toxic ones at that) for avoiding this route... Instead, might I strike out
for truth, justice and the ornamental aquatics way and suggest neither iron
nor commercial phosphate removal products, but simpler boosted
photosynthesis as a/the means of removing excess PO4? Here's my usual plug
for "balance" twixt lighting, nutrients/feeding and purposeful Macrophyte,
live rock, algae scrubbers...) photosynthesis...
Bob Fenner "





"* In strongly acid mineral soils, soluble Fe, Al, and Mg can exist
and react with existing phosphates rendering them insoluble. Often
the amount of soluble metal ions greatly exceeds the amount of
soluble phosphates, and only minute amounts of soluble phosphate
will remain [for plants and algae] at equilibrium. Even greater
amounts of phosphates are removed from solution in acid soils by
oxides of Fe and Al. In acid conditions these oxides have a net
positive charge and they attract phosphate ions from solution into
exchangeable positions on their surface. With time the phosphate
ions either migrate into the center of the oxide particles and
become unavailable, or react with the hydrous oxide to form an
insoluble compound, or are use by plants and microorganisms. Since
several insoluble compounds can be made by the reaction of
phosphates with hydrous oxides of Fe/Al, it is thought that
phosphate may be fixed over a wide pH range extending from low
through the neutral zone, even though little charge exists in the
neutral/alkaline region on the oxide surface. Kaolinite can also
fix phosphorus under moderately acid conditions, but the mechanism
is unknown. Other silicate clays hold a very small pH-dependent
positive charge which is generally insignificant. [Hydrous oxides
and kaolinite are the primary components of tropical 'laterite' or
'latisols' (the more current name). This suggest that laterite in
the substrate with water circulation through it may play a role in
reducing phosphate levels in a tank, especially in acid water. It
also suggests that any form of iron oxide in the tank (rusting steel
wool in the filter or unchelated garden Fe supplement?) may help
reduce phosphate levels in the tank. Since a low pH is better,
substrate additions may be the best bet.]
"


"ron" > wrote in message
...
> lg wrote:
>
>> "Mislav" > wrote in message ...
>>
>>>>I treat Phosphates with small balls of steel wool every two weeks.
>>>
>>>Could you elaborate this?
>>>Are you using just plain steel wool used for scrubbing? Did you see any
>>>downsides to using it? Do you measure phosphates before you put steel
>>>wool
>>>and after? How long do you keep it in tank?
>>>
>>>Mislav
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> By they way.....the steel ball 'rusts' away to nothing in about 48 hours.
>>
>> It is the iron oxide that deals with the phosphates. Nothing remains to
>> remove.
>>
>> lg
>>
>>
> So how long have you been doing this? Are you certain that the phosphates
> cant be re-released later?

[lg]

"ron" > wrote in message
...
> lg wrote:
>
> > "Mislav" > wrote in message ...
> >
> >>>I treat Phosphates with small balls of steel wool every two weeks.
> >>
> >>Could you elaborate this?
> >>Are you using just plain steel wool used for scrubbing? Did you see any
> >>downsides to using it? Do you measure phosphates before you put steel
wool
> >>and after? How long do you keep it in tank?
> >>
> >>Mislav
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > By they way.....the steel ball 'rusts' away to nothing in about 48
hours.
> >
> > It is the iron oxide that deals with the phosphates. Nothing remains to
> > remove.
> >
> > lg
> >
> >
> So how long have you been doing this? Are you certain that the
> phosphates cant be re-released later?

I have been doing it for 6 months.

Phosphates have not returned. Maybe I could cut the amount of steel wool
down or do it every 2 months????? I don't know. My local fish shop guru said
'do this' and I di it. He has never been wrong.


lg

[CheezWiz]

And what happens to the IronPhosphate?
"kryppy" <kryppy@.> wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 15:31:30 +1000, "lg" > wrote:
>
>>
>>"Mislav" > wrote in message ...
>>> >I treat Phosphates with small balls of steel wool every two weeks.
>>>
>>> Could you elaborate this?
>>> Are you using just plain steel wool used for scrubbing? Did you see any
>>> downsides to using it? Do you measure phosphates before you put steel
>>> wool
>>> and after? How long do you keep it in tank?
>>>
>>> Mislav
>>>
>>>
>>
>>By they way.....the steel ball 'rusts' away to nothing in about 48 hours.
>>
>>It is the iron oxide that deals with the phosphates. Nothing remains to
>>remove.
>
>
> Lol, just stay away from soap covered steel wool. :)
>
> I like the sound of this, I wonder if the plants can absorb or utilize
> the left over iron oxide...?
>
>
>
>