cichlid newbie advise wanted

[djh]

I have 4 tropical species and community tanks but no cichlids. Having found
a spare corner for yet another tank, I've decided to try Malawi cichlids.
I'm in the process of setting up the tank and like to know if I'm doing it
correctly. It's a 35gal tank. I've put a find layer of silicon sand on the
bottom topped by coral gravel. the reason for this is that my normal is ph
is extremely low - under 6.6. in the main trop tank, I add coral to the
filer and the ph has gradually increased to 7 but I know cichlids like it
higher than that. I know I could add chemicals but am reluctant to go down
that route unless really needed.
I've added lots of large ocean rock and lava rock with plenty of hidey
holes. No plants as I know that's not their normal habitat. filtration is a
fluval 4 plus, again with coral added and there's also a airwall. Temp at
moment is set to 28.
I've added a sponge from one of the other tanks tot he filter and I've also
added the tank water the other filters have been cleaned in so there is
plenty of filter material. The water is hard (around 200ppm) BUT it is also
low KH (around 40ppm). I'm hoping this will increase as coral does it's bit.
Does this sound as if I've done this set up correctly? And would I be able
to get a couple of fish at weekend? which brings up another point - I know
you're not supposed to add cichlids to an established aquarium so how do
you stock gradually? I don't want fights breaking out each weekend!
Many thanks for any advice.

[Gill Passman]

"djh" > wrote in message
...
> I have 4 tropical species and community tanks but no cichlids. Having
found
> a spare corner for yet another tank, I've decided to try Malawi cichlids.
> I'm in the process of setting up the tank and like to know if I'm doing it
> correctly. It's a 35gal tank. I've put a find layer of silicon sand on the
> bottom topped by coral gravel. the reason for this is that my normal is ph
> is extremely low - under 6.6. in the main trop tank, I add coral to the
> filer and the ph has gradually increased to 7 but I know cichlids like it
> higher than that. I know I could add chemicals but am reluctant to go down
> that route unless really needed.
> I've added lots of large ocean rock and lava rock with plenty of hidey
> holes. No plants as I know that's not their normal habitat. filtration is
a
> fluval 4 plus, again with coral added and there's also a airwall. Temp at
> moment is set to 28.
> I've added a sponge from one of the other tanks tot he filter and I've
also
> added the tank water the other filters have been cleaned in so there is
> plenty of filter material. The water is hard (around 200ppm) BUT it is
also
> low KH (around 40ppm). I'm hoping this will increase as coral does it's
bit.
> Does this sound as if I've done this set up correctly? And would I be able
> to get a couple of fish at weekend? which brings up another point - I know
> you're not supposed to add cichlids to an established aquarium so how do
> you stock gradually? I don't want fights breaking out each weekend!
> Many thanks for any advice.
>
>
Hi and welcome :-)

Firstly, you really needed to add the fish at the same time as the filter
medium - the bacteria will not survive without them unless you are adding
something like ammonia to the water to keep it cycled. I usually add the
filter medium shortly after the fish. Luckily you have the other tanks so
can do this - I also added some substrate (in a knotted stocking as it
didn't match). I also have the coral substrate.

I set up a 45 UK gall tank with Malawi around 5 months ago - very
interesting fish but aggresive and territorial (as I'm sure you have read).
Like you I went for the Ocean Rock - one word of caution - I think I went
overboard in the cave building and now cannot find the fish all of the
time - this of course can be a problem if any are sick or die. I've reduced
the rock but still didn't see my Pl*co for a week - he turned up tonight
safe and well :-)

I added the fish over a three week period keeping a close eye on ammonia and
nitrites - I ended up having to add some more filter medium but everything
is stable now. I suggest that you keep a close eye on the fish. I have 15 in
total right now (not including the pl*c). I originally had another 3 Rusty
Cichlids but they got bullied - sadly I was too late for two of them and the
3rd returned to the shop :-(

Another thing that I find different about this tank is the algae. As there
are no plants to suck up any nutrients the algae can easily take hold -
hence the pl*c

What fish are you planning to get? I found the following site useful in
making my decision:-

http://www.malawimayhem.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2659


Good luck
Gill

[NetMax]

"djh" > wrote in message
...
>I have 4 tropical species and community tanks but no cichlids. Having found
>a spare corner for yet another tank, I've decided to try Malawi cichlids.
> I'm in the process of setting up the tank and like to know if I'm doing it
> correctly. It's a 35gal tank. I've put a find layer of silicon sand on the
> bottom topped by coral gravel. the reason for this is that my normal is ph
> is extremely low - under 6.6. in the main trop tank, I add coral to the
> filer and the ph has gradually increased to 7 but I know cichlids like it
> higher than that. I know I could add chemicals but am reluctant to go down
> that route unless really needed.
> I've added lots of large ocean rock and lava rock with plenty of hidey
> holes. No plants as I know that's not their normal habitat. filtration is
> a fluval 4 plus, again with coral added and there's also a airwall. Temp
> at moment is set to 28.
> I've added a sponge from one of the other tanks tot he filter and I've
> also added the tank water the other filters have been cleaned in so there
> is plenty of filter material. The water is hard (around 200ppm) BUT it is
> also low KH (around 40ppm). I'm hoping this will increase as coral does
> it's bit. Does this sound as if I've done this set up correctly? And would
> I be able to get a couple of fish at weekend?

The further the water parameters of your tank are from your tap water, the
more attention needs to be given to not shocking the fish during water
changes (especially problematic when doing large water changes if cycling
the tank with fish).

> which brings up another point - I know you're not supposed to add cichlids
> to an established aquarium so how do you stock gradually? I don't want
> fights breaking out each weekend!
> Many thanks for any advice.

An excellent question, because I think gradually adding fish is a terrible
idea. Not only is it stressful for the fish (imagine getting a new
room-mate every month), it provides multiple disease vectors (with every new
addition), and when territorial fish are involved, it is hazardous to their
health.

The strategy with cichlids (imo) is too add the total amount of fish which
you would have as adults (if this is your only tank, more if you have
upgrade tanks available), and add 10-20% to your number (offset losses) and
add them when they are juveniles (more tolerant of strange tank-mates) ALL
AT THE SAME TIME (I'm not really shouting, just emphasising and compensating
for a run-on sentence ;~).

With some skill you can stage the fish in, by order of
smallest/weakest/least territorial to the opposite extreme, but the easiest
is to add them all at once as juveniles (3-5 months old).

To address the biological requirements, transfer over a mature filter, or
fishless cycle the tank. hth
--
www.NetMax.tk

[MrHappy]

Hi

I will make an unpopular suggestion....you might want to
consider getting cichlids that match the water you have. It will
be a lot easier than trying to keep the PH up as it will have a
natural tendency to drop

Other suggestions if you want malawis

Do not mix predators and prey
Mbuna, the rock dwellers, are mainly herbivore, and want a lot
of rock face and caves.....other Malawi cichlids want open water
and are not as violent as Mbuna. They tend not to mix
If you get tank bred from your area, they hmay be used to more
acid water..ask at your LFS. Buy wild caught and you will be
storing up trouble
melanochromis Auratus is a violent fish. I would recommend
against

Chose Mbuna in groups of 2-3 females to a male and ensure that
different family groups have different markings/body shapes
as these are the things that seem to start the wars off

I suggest you quarantine new introductions

The main problem with new introductions is that they are
introduced in to tanks where all the availble territories have
already been claimed. It is worth moving the decor around to
break up the territories which will reduce the fighting when new
introductions are put in (the existing fish will have no settled
territory to defend)

If you are buying fish prior to putting in to your display tank,
I suggest holding them like they do in the LFS ie in completely
bare tanks with no decor as they can't mark out territories
easily

Overstock +50% and so overfilter the tank as it makes it
difficult for territories to be established and, lots of fish
spreads around the aggression

Try and build some rock outcrops that break the line of sight
down the length of the tank

If you want to provide short term refuges I use lengths of
3/4" pipe stacked in pyramids to give hiding spaces

One final thing, if you move filter media in to water with a
very different PH, (don't forget it is a logarithmic scale so
PH5 going to PH 6 is a 10 fold reduction in acidity), the
bacteria will die back and will need a chance to stabilise and
grow back

better to seed the filters as best you can and then fishless
cycle the tank in the right water.

With local tank bread Mbuna, used to you tap water, success will
be greater IMHO as you will be able to maintain the water in a
constant manner

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[Amateur Cichlids]

After reading MrHappy's response, I have little to add. I do disagree
with the overstocking of Mbuna tanks to control aggression. Effective? Yes.
Popular? Yep. Does it work? Seems to work just fine, although there's
sometimes an occassional death or two. But IMO, it's nicer to have a more
natural looking tank where the tank size will accomodate the fish you're
keeping. If your tank is large enough, you won't need to overstock to
control aggression. Over the years, I've gotten away from the overstocking
practice and moved towards more natural looking tanks. I don't know if my
fish are any happier or not, I'm sure there's a thousand arguments on why
overstocking is better, "My fish breed." "I've been doing it this way five
hundred years and never had a fish die.", etc, etc. But, by not
overstocking, you can stick with water changes once a week instead of every
three days, (which overstockers seldom do.) Broods I've gotten from my tanks
have increased since I stopped overstocking and fry seem to be healthier.
I agree fully with every thing else MrHappy has written, especially with
his suggestions being unpopular. =) Seems no one wants to hear good advice
when they've already gotten something else into their heads.
Tim
http://www.fishaholics.org

"MrHappy" <noemail@thankyou> wrote in message
...

> I will make an unpopular suggestion....you might want to
> consider getting cichlids that match the water you have. It will
> be a lot easier than trying to keep the PH up as it will have a
> natural tendency to drop
>
> Other suggestions if you want malawis
>
> Do not mix predators and prey
> Mbuna, the rock dwellers, are mainly herbivore, and want a lot
> of rock face and caves.....other Malawi cichlids want open water
> and are not as violent as Mbuna. They tend not to mix
> If you get tank bred from your area, they hmay be used to more
> acid water..ask at your LFS. Buy wild caught and you will be
> storing up trouble
> melanochromis Auratus is a violent fish. I would recommend
> against
>
> Chose Mbuna in groups of 2-3 females to a male and ensure that
> different family groups have different markings/body shapes
> as these are the things that seem to start the wars off
>
> I suggest you quarantine new introductions
>
> The main problem with new introductions is that they are
> introduced in to tanks where all the availble territories have
> already been claimed. It is worth moving the decor around to
> break up the territories which will reduce the fighting when new
> introductions are put in (the existing fish will have no settled
> territory to defend)
>
> If you are buying fish prior to putting in to your display tank,
> I suggest holding them like they do in the LFS ie in completely
> bare tanks with no decor as they can't mark out territories
> easily
>
> Overstock +50% and so overfilter the tank as it makes it
> difficult for territories to be established and, lots of fish
> spreads around the aggression
>
> Try and build some rock outcrops that break the line of sight
> down the length of the tank
>
> If you want to provide short term refuges I use lengths of
> 3/4" pipe stacked in pyramids to give hiding spaces
>
> One final thing, if you move filter media in to water with a
> very different PH, (don't forget it is a logarithmic scale so
> PH5 going to PH 6 is a 10 fold reduction in acidity), the
> bacteria will die back and will need a chance to stabilise and
> grow back
>
> better to seed the filters as best you can and then fishless
> cycle the tank in the right water.
>
> With local tank bread Mbuna, used to you tap water, success will
> be greater IMHO as you will be able to maintain the water in a
> constant manner
>
> ----------------------------------------------
> Posted with NewsLeecher v2.0 RC2
> * Binary Usenet Leeching Made Easy
> * http://www.newsleecher.com/?usenet
> ----------------------------------------------
>

[Gill Passman]

"Amateur Cichlids" > wrote in message
...
> After reading MrHappy's response, I have little to add. I do disagree
> with the overstocking of Mbuna tanks to control aggression. Effective?
Yes.
> Popular? Yep. Does it work? Seems to work just fine, although there's
> sometimes an occassional death or two. But IMO, it's nicer to have a more
> natural looking tank where the tank size will accomodate the fish you're
> keeping. If your tank is large enough, you won't need to overstock to
> control aggression. Over the years, I've gotten away from the overstocking
> practice and moved towards more natural looking tanks. I don't know if my
> fish are any happier or not, I'm sure there's a thousand arguments on why
> overstocking is better, "My fish breed." "I've been doing it this way five
> hundred years and never had a fish die.", etc, etc. But, by not
> overstocking, you can stick with water changes once a week instead of
every
> three days, (which overstockers seldom do.) Broods I've gotten from my
tanks
> have increased since I stopped overstocking and fry seem to be healthier.
> I agree fully with every thing else MrHappy has written, especially
with
> his suggestions being unpopular. =) Seems no one wants to hear good
advice
> when they've already gotten something else into their heads.
> Tim
> http://www.fishaholics.org
>
> "MrHappy" <noemail@thankyou> wrote in message
> ...
>
> > I will make an unpopular suggestion....you might want to
> > consider getting cichlids that match the water you have. It will
> > be a lot easier than trying to keep the PH up as it will have a
> > natural tendency to drop
> >
> > Other suggestions if you want malawis
> >
> > Do not mix predators and prey
> > Mbuna, the rock dwellers, are mainly herbivore, and want a lot
> > of rock face and caves.....other Malawi cichlids want open water
> > and are not as violent as Mbuna. They tend not to mix
> > If you get tank bred from your area, they hmay be used to more
> > acid water..ask at your LFS. Buy wild caught and you will be
> > storing up trouble
> > melanochromis Auratus is a violent fish. I would recommend
> > against
> >
> > Chose Mbuna in groups of 2-3 females to a male and ensure that
> > different family groups have different markings/body shapes
> > as these are the things that seem to start the wars off
> >
> > I suggest you quarantine new introductions
> >
> > The main problem with new introductions is that they are
> > introduced in to tanks where all the availble territories have
> > already been claimed. It is worth moving the decor around to
> > break up the territories which will reduce the fighting when new
> > introductions are put in (the existing fish will have no settled
> > territory to defend)
> >
> > If you are buying fish prior to putting in to your display tank,
> > I suggest holding them like they do in the LFS ie in completely
> > bare tanks with no decor as they can't mark out territories
> > easily
> >
> > Overstock +50% and so overfilter the tank as it makes it
> > difficult for territories to be established and, lots of fish
> > spreads around the aggression
> >
> > Try and build some rock outcrops that break the line of sight
> > down the length of the tank
> >
> > If you want to provide short term refuges I use lengths of
> > 3/4" pipe stacked in pyramids to give hiding spaces
> >
> > One final thing, if you move filter media in to water with a
> > very different PH, (don't forget it is a logarithmic scale so
> > PH5 going to PH 6 is a 10 fold reduction in acidity), the
> > bacteria will die back and will need a chance to stabilise and
> > grow back
> >
> > better to seed the filters as best you can and then fishless
> > cycle the tank in the right water.
> >
> > With local tank bread Mbuna, used to you tap water, success will
> > be greater IMHO as you will be able to maintain the water in a
> > constant manner
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------
> > Posted with NewsLeecher v2.0 RC2
> > * Binary Usenet Leeching Made Easy
> > * http://www.newsleecher.com/?usenet
> > ----------------------------------------------
> >
>
>
I'm no expert and have only been keeping Malawis since February....I have 13
Mbunas, two peacocks and one Pleco in a 50UK gall tank. In my experience to
date they seem to do a very good job of overstocking the tank on their own
:-)

I spot new fry almost everyday as they start to grow and gain in
confidence...I have some that are already Neon tetra size....

Gill

[toreskeviin]

The main problem, the newly introduced, they are introduced the tanks, all availble area
Has already been claimed. This should be decorated to move around break up the territory, thereby reducing, the new battle introduced is placed (does not solve the existing fish territorial defence).