One of my tanks' ph tends to drop....

[Daniel Morrow]

My ph and gh, kh of my bedroom tank tends to drop even with all of the sea
shells I have in it. I have been treating the water with baking soda for the
last few days after testing the ph and it being at about 6.0, and that was
after the tell tale sign what with the female fancy guppies staying at the
surface. I have noticed that aquarium water tends to be clearer the lower
the ph is (but I don't mind non-perfectly clear water if it means healthier,
happier fish) which is kind of strange to me. My kh and gh has always been
low in this tank and I am planning on making it a regular thing to add
measured baking soda to keep the hardness around 4 or 5 degrees, until I get
some crushed coral or aragonite/ carib sea type substrate to add to the
fluval msf 104 filter basket which hopefully will solve the hardness/ph
issue. Interestingly my other tanks seem to have decent kh, gh, ph for some
reason. Any comments are welcome, later!

[Bill Stock]

"Daniel Morrow" > wrote in message
...
> My ph and gh, kh of my bedroom tank tends to drop even with all of the sea
> shells I have in it. I have been treating the water with baking soda for
> the
> last few days after testing the ph and it being at about 6.0, and that was
> after the tell tale sign what with the female fancy guppies staying at the
> surface. I have noticed that aquarium water tends to be clearer the lower
> the ph is (but I don't mind non-perfectly clear water if it means
> healthier,
> happier fish) which is kind of strange to me. My kh and gh has always been
> low in this tank and I am planning on making it a regular thing to add
> measured baking soda to keep the hardness around 4 or 5 degrees, until I
> get
> some crushed coral or aragonite/ carib sea type substrate to add to the
> fluval msf 104 filter basket which hopefully will solve the hardness/ph
> issue. Interestingly my other tanks seem to have decent kh, gh, ph for
> some
> reason. Any comments are welcome, later!
>

Any driftwood or Peat in this tank? How are the Nitrates?

I keep aragonite in all my filters now (except the Betta), due to a PH crash
in the GF tank a few years ago.

[Daniel Morrow]

"Bill Stock" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Daniel Morrow" > wrote in message
> ...
> > My ph and gh, kh of my bedroom tank tends to drop even with all of the
sea
> > shells I have in it. I have been treating the water with baking soda for
> > the
> > last few days after testing the ph and it being at about 6.0, and that
was
> > after the tell tale sign what with the female fancy guppies staying at
the
> > surface. I have noticed that aquarium water tends to be clearer the
lower
> > the ph is (but I don't mind non-perfectly clear water if it means
> > healthier,
> > happier fish) which is kind of strange to me. My kh and gh has always
been
> > low in this tank and I am planning on making it a regular thing to add
> > measured baking soda to keep the hardness around 4 or 5 degrees, until I
> > get
> > some crushed coral or aragonite/ carib sea type substrate to add to the
> > fluval msf 104 filter basket which hopefully will solve the hardness/ph
> > issue. Interestingly my other tanks seem to have decent kh, gh, ph for
> > some
> > reason. Any comments are welcome, later!
> >
>
> Any driftwood or Peat in this tank? How are the Nitrates?

No driftwood or peat in this tank but the nitrates are high (last time I
measured it was around 80 ppm I think). The nitrates (not nitrites) have
always been high since as far back as I can remember.
>
> I keep aragonite in all my filters now (except the Betta), due to a PH
crash
> in the GF tank a few years ago.

Yeah, I am going to try and prevent that (ph crash) as it would happen if I
hadn't have caught this (lesson learned - know your fish). Looks like
aragonite is the way to go and should be easy enough for me, wish me luck
with the aragonite (success almost assured according to my educated guess).
Thanks for the reply, see you later!
>
>
>

[Scat]

80ppm nitrates is pretty high. Id normally change my water when its
about 20ppm.
Do you have any plants in there? They'll absorb some of your nitrates.
Do you use a CO2 reactor? They tend to drop PH levels a bit.
Is your filter working properly? Water movement will aid gas exchange,
helping to get rid of CO2 and introducing oxygen, which will help raise
PH.
Some floss in your filter should also help to collect the dust in your
tank.

[Rocco Moretti]

Daniel Morrow wrote:
> My ph and gh, kh of my bedroom tank tends to drop even with all of the sea
> shells I have in it.

You may have OTS (Old Tank Syndrome), especially given your high
nitrates. The short explanation is that waste and debris collect in the
gravel and start to rot, producting nitrate and dropping the pH.

First course of action is to check the total Ammonia level (ammonia +
ammonium) - if the ammonia is high, increasing the pH will convert
less-toxic ammonium to very-toxic ammonia, causing fish death. If you
have high ammonia, be sure to use some ammonia detoxifier before
proceeding, to be on the safe side.

Next step is to Gravel-Vac, Gravel-Vac, and Gravel Vac some more. Dig in
there, and suck out all the crud that accumulated. No crud = less
rotting = more stable pH. When you gravel vac, dump the water out, and
replace it with new water. This also accomplishes a water change,
removes the nitrates and replenishes the carbonate buffer.

Hopefully this will help. As a last resort, there is always tearing the
tank apart, giving it a good cleaning, and restarting it "fresh"

[Daniel Morrow]

"Scat" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> 80ppm nitrates is pretty high. Id normally change my water when its
> about 20ppm.
> Do you have any plants in there? They'll absorb some of your nitrates.
> Do you use a CO2 reactor? They tend to drop PH levels a bit.
> Is your filter working properly? Water movement will aid gas exchange,
> helping to get rid of CO2 and introducing oxygen, which will help raise
> PH.
> Some floss in your filter should also help to collect the dust in your
> tank.
>

I agree the nitrates are pretty high and that rocco is right - this could be
a minor old tank syndrome situation as this tank has been operating for over
a year and a half. I do gravel vac once every 2 weeks and can't seem to find
any sign of leftover crud in the gravel. I do have an amazon swordplant
(max. size around 9 or 10 inches high) and some remaining hornwort in this
tank. I am going to check the ammonia levels soon (tonight) and the same
with the nitrites, ph and possibly the nitrates again. After typing with you
and rocco I am pretty certain this is a mild (if it can be mild - I consider
it mild because now I am onto it and I haven't had any casualties yet
thankfully) case of ots/ph crash. Been using baking soda and by the way -
noticed that the new pond snails (I know and I think I understand why most
people seem to think of them as pests) like to ride the bubbles from the air
wand as well (I had heard good apple snails like to do that) pretty fun to
watch. I don't use a co2 reactor and I have both a fluval msf 104 and a
powerhead driven biowheel pro 60 for filtration which should easily be
overkill for this tank (15 gallons) so filtration shouldn't be much if any
issue. Thanks for the recommendations guys/gals, I will probably keep you
updated on this if it is a significant deal (i.e. if there is any pet
danger, etc.). Later!

[Daniel Morrow]

"Rocco Moretti" > wrote in message
...
> Daniel Morrow wrote:
> > My ph and gh, kh of my bedroom tank tends to drop even with all of the
sea
> > shells I have in it.
>
> You may have OTS (Old Tank Syndrome), especially given your high
> nitrates. The short explanation is that waste and debris collect in the
> gravel and start to rot, producting nitrate and dropping the pH.
>
> First course of action is to check the total Ammonia level (ammonia +
> ammonium) - if the ammonia is high, increasing the pH will convert
> less-toxic ammonium to very-toxic ammonia, causing fish death. If you
> have high ammonia, be sure to use some ammonia detoxifier before
> proceeding, to be on the safe side.
>
> Next step is to Gravel-Vac, Gravel-Vac, and Gravel Vac some more. Dig in
> there, and suck out all the crud that accumulated. No crud = less
> rotting = more stable pH. When you gravel vac, dump the water out, and
> replace it with new water. This also accomplishes a water change,
> removes the nitrates and replenishes the carbonate buffer.
>
> Hopefully this will help. As a last resort, there is always tearing the
> tank apart, giving it a good cleaning, and restarting it "fresh"

I love test kits. I found 0 ammonia, 0.3-0.8 nitrites (gotcha), and 80-160
nitrates. I did a gravel vaccing and 50 % water change and plan on
increasing the frequency of cleanings to once per week for this small tank.
Thanks for the info guys - I now have a use for my spare aquareminder - will
change water much more frequently. I think the underlying reason the
nitrates and nitrites are so high is because of the exploding pond snail
population and the baby fry (which is very much wanted). I am amazed no fry
have ever been vacced up from this one tank yet. I have techniques to save
any that do get sucked up without any harm whatsoever. Thanks again
guys/gals, later!

[Dr Engelbert Buxbaum]

Daniel Morrow wrote:

> > > My kh and gh has always been
> > > low in this tank and I am planning on making it a regular thing to add
> > > measured baking soda to keep the hardness around 4 or 5 degrees, until I
> > > get
> > > some crushed coral or aragonite/ carib sea type substrate to add to the
> > > fluval msf 104 filter basket which hopefully will solve the hardness/ph
> > > issue.
> >
> > Any driftwood or Peat in this tank? How are the Nitrates?
>
> No driftwood or peat in this tank but the nitrates are high (last time I
> measured it was around 80 ppm I think). The nitrates (not nitrites) have
> always been high since as far back as I can remember.


You have very soft water, which tends to be acidic. Such water is
suitable for example for a Southamerica tank with "blackwater" fish.
Peat or driftwood will leak humic acids into the water, which stabilise
the pH at a low level (around 6), to which these fish are adapted.

If you wnat to keep hard water fish, then the aragonit will be the way
to go. Note however that it is often easier to keep fishes that match
your water than to try and adapt the water to your fishes.

Soda will increase the pH, but can not keep it constant for long. In
addition, the sodium ions increase the "total dissolved solids", often
measured as conductivity. In effect you create a brack water tank that
way, not all fishes can stand that.

80 ppm nitrate is rather high, 10-20 ppm are mre usual. Ask your water
supplier for the nitrate content of your tap water (or measure it
yourself). If the high nitrates are not introduced with the tap water
than you are probably doing not enough water changes. In that case you
need to do something like a 2/3 change right away, followed by the usual
1/5 every other week (for a planted tank, if you have no life plants, do
it every week).

If the tab water is that high in nitrate, I would be a little worried.
In most countries, statutory limits are 20-50 ppm for drinking water as
more can be dangerous especially to infants.

[Daniel Morrow]

"Dr Engelbert Buxbaum" > wrote in message
...
> Daniel Morrow wrote:
>
> > > > My kh and gh has always been
> > > > low in this tank and I am planning on making it a regular thing to
add
> > > > measured baking soda to keep the hardness around 4 or 5 degrees,
until I
> > > > get
> > > > some crushed coral or aragonite/ carib sea type substrate to add to
the
> > > > fluval msf 104 filter basket which hopefully will solve the
hardness/ph
> > > > issue.
> > >
> > > Any driftwood or Peat in this tank? How are the Nitrates?
> >
> > No driftwood or peat in this tank but the nitrates are high (last time I
> > measured it was around 80 ppm I think). The nitrates (not nitrites) have
> > always been high since as far back as I can remember.
>
>
> You have very soft water, which tends to be acidic. Such water is
> suitable for example for a Southamerica tank with "blackwater" fish.
> Peat or driftwood will leak humic acids into the water, which stabilise
> the pH at a low level (around 6), to which these fish are adapted.
>
> If you wnat to keep hard water fish, then the aragonit will be the way
> to go. Note however that it is often easier to keep fishes that match
> your water than to try and adapt the water to your fishes.
>
> Soda will increase the pH, but can not keep it constant for long. In
> addition, the sodium ions increase the "total dissolved solids", often
> measured as conductivity. In effect you create a brack water tank that
> way, not all fishes can stand that.
>
> 80 ppm nitrate is rather high, 10-20 ppm are mre usual. Ask your water
> supplier for the nitrate content of your tap water (or measure it
> yourself). If the high nitrates are not introduced with the tap water
> than you are probably doing not enough water changes. In that case you
> need to do something like a 2/3 change right away, followed by the usual
> 1/5 every other week (for a planted tank, if you have no life plants, do
> it every week).
>
> If the tab water is that high in nitrate, I would be a little worried.
> In most countries, statutory limits are 20-50 ppm for drinking water as
> more can be dangerous especially to infants.

Thanks for the info dr.! I will measure my tap water's nitrates today.
Please see my other posts about this as they explain things further. At the
moment I have major doubts about my tetra laborett test kit's
accuracy/reliability. Good to hear from you, later!

[Daniel Morrow]

"Dr Engelbert Buxbaum" > wrote in message
...
> Daniel Morrow wrote:
>
> > > > My kh and gh has always been
> > > > low in this tank and I am planning on making it a regular thing to
add
> > > > measured baking soda to keep the hardness around 4 or 5 degrees,
until I
> > > > get
> > > > some crushed coral or aragonite/ carib sea type substrate to add to
the
> > > > fluval msf 104 filter basket which hopefully will solve the
hardness/ph
> > > > issue.
> > >
> > > Any driftwood or Peat in this tank? How are the Nitrates?
> >
> > No driftwood or peat in this tank but the nitrates are high (last time I
> > measured it was around 80 ppm I think). The nitrates (not nitrites) have
> > always been high since as far back as I can remember.
>
>
> You have very soft water, which tends to be acidic. Such water is
> suitable for example for a Southamerica tank with "blackwater" fish.
> Peat or driftwood will leak humic acids into the water, which stabilise
> the pH at a low level (around 6), to which these fish are adapted.
>
> If you wnat to keep hard water fish, then the aragonit will be the way
> to go. Note however that it is often easier to keep fishes that match
> your water than to try and adapt the water to your fishes.
>
> Soda will increase the pH, but can not keep it constant for long. In
> addition, the sodium ions increase the "total dissolved solids", often
> measured as conductivity. In effect you create a brack water tank that
> way, not all fishes can stand that.
>
> 80 ppm nitrate is rather high, 10-20 ppm are mre usual. Ask your water
> supplier for the nitrate content of your tap water (or measure it
> yourself). If the high nitrates are not introduced with the tap water
> than you are probably doing not enough water changes. In that case you
> need to do something like a 2/3 change right away, followed by the usual
> 1/5 every other week (for a planted tank, if you have no life plants, do
> it every week).
>
> If the tab water is that high in nitrate, I would be a little worried.
> In most countries, statutory limits are 20-50 ppm for drinking water as
> more can be dangerous especially to infants.

My tap water tests out as 0 nitrate, test kit is aquarium pharmaceuticals
brand and tests todays nitrate in my bedroom tank at 160 ppm, mg/l, blood
red on the chart. Nitrite in the tank tests at 0 today, general hardness at
11 dgh, carbonate hardness at 1 dkh, ph at 7.3 (between 7.0 and 7.5) today.
Summary - the nitrates are high in my bedroom tank. Should I change 50% of
water every day until they are around 30 (nitrates)? I do know that too
clean of water can cause osmotic shock and extremes in ph, elaine/netmax any
recommendations? No sign of heavy breathing in the fish but the 2 females
tend to hang out at the surface sometimes, but they are gravid too. Later
all! By the way - my nitrate test kit is aquarium pharmaceuticals brand
while the rest are tetra laborett brand.

[Elaine T]

Daniel Morrow wrote:
> "Dr Engelbert Buxbaum" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Daniel Morrow wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>>My kh and gh has always been
>>>>>low in this tank and I am planning on making it a regular thing to
>
> add
>
>>>>>measured baking soda to keep the hardness around 4 or 5 degrees,
>
> until I
>
>>>>>get
>>>>>some crushed coral or aragonite/ carib sea type substrate to add to
>
> the
>
>>>>>fluval msf 104 filter basket which hopefully will solve the
>
> hardness/ph
>
>>>>>issue.
>>>>
>>>>Any driftwood or Peat in this tank? How are the Nitrates?
>>>
>>>No driftwood or peat in this tank but the nitrates are high (last time I
>>>measured it was around 80 ppm I think). The nitrates (not nitrites) have
>>>always been high since as far back as I can remember.
>>
>>
>>You have very soft water, which tends to be acidic. Such water is
>>suitable for example for a Southamerica tank with "blackwater" fish.
>>Peat or driftwood will leak humic acids into the water, which stabilise
>>the pH at a low level (around 6), to which these fish are adapted.
>>
>>If you wnat to keep hard water fish, then the aragonit will be the way
>>to go. Note however that it is often easier to keep fishes that match
>>your water than to try and adapt the water to your fishes.
>>
>>Soda will increase the pH, but can not keep it constant for long. In
>>addition, the sodium ions increase the "total dissolved solids", often
>>measured as conductivity. In effect you create a brack water tank that
>>way, not all fishes can stand that.
>>
>>80 ppm nitrate is rather high, 10-20 ppm are mre usual. Ask your water
>>supplier for the nitrate content of your tap water (or measure it
>>yourself). If the high nitrates are not introduced with the tap water
>>than you are probably doing not enough water changes. In that case you
>>need to do something like a 2/3 change right away, followed by the usual
>>1/5 every other week (for a planted tank, if you have no life plants, do
>>it every week).
>>
>>If the tab water is that high in nitrate, I would be a little worried.
>>In most countries, statutory limits are 20-50 ppm for drinking water as
>>more can be dangerous especially to infants.
>
>
> My tap water tests out as 0 nitrate, test kit is aquarium pharmaceuticals
> brand and tests todays nitrate in my bedroom tank at 160 ppm, mg/l, blood
> red on the chart. Nitrite in the tank tests at 0 today, general hardness at
> 11 dgh, carbonate hardness at 1 dkh, ph at 7.3 (between 7.0 and 7.5) today.
> Summary - the nitrates are high in my bedroom tank. Should I change 50% of
> water every day until they are around 30 (nitrates)? I do know that too
> clean of water can cause osmotic shock and extremes in ph, elaine/netmax any
> recommendations? No sign of heavy breathing in the fish but the 2 females
> tend to hang out at the surface sometimes, but they are gravid too. Later
> all! By the way - my nitrate test kit is aquarium pharmaceuticals brand
> while the rest are tetra laborett brand.
>
"Too clean" water isn't the problem, unless you're talking about
distilled. A sudden change to much cleaner water is usually a problem,
though and can cause osmotic shock as you mentioned. I'd personally
start with 15-20% water changes every couple of days and gradually
increase the size of the water changes as nitrates fall and the
tankwater becomes closer to your tapwater. That way you will avoid
shocking your fish. After all, your fish are doing fine so there is no
need to panic.

Hopefully the aragonite you've added to the filter will pull that KH up
becaue 1 dKH is too low to the pH stable. As for guppies at the
surface, mine generally hang out there begging for food whenever I pass
the tank.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Daniel Morrow]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
m...
> Daniel Morrow wrote:
> > "Dr Engelbert Buxbaum" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>Daniel Morrow wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>>>My kh and gh has always been
> >>>>>low in this tank and I am planning on making it a regular thing to
> >
> > add
> >
> >>>>>measured baking soda to keep the hardness around 4 or 5 degrees,
> >
> > until I
> >
> >>>>>get
> >>>>>some crushed coral or aragonite/ carib sea type substrate to add to
> >
> > the
> >
> >>>>>fluval msf 104 filter basket which hopefully will solve the
> >
> > hardness/ph
> >
> >>>>>issue.
> >>>>
> >>>>Any driftwood or Peat in this tank? How are the Nitrates?
> >>>
> >>>No driftwood or peat in this tank but the nitrates are high (last time
I
> >>>measured it was around 80 ppm I think). The nitrates (not nitrites)
have
> >>>always been high since as far back as I can remember.
> >>
> >>
> >>You have very soft water, which tends to be acidic. Such water is
> >>suitable for example for a Southamerica tank with "blackwater" fish.
> >>Peat or driftwood will leak humic acids into the water, which stabilise
> >>the pH at a low level (around 6), to which these fish are adapted.
> >>
> >>If you wnat to keep hard water fish, then the aragonit will be the way
> >>to go. Note however that it is often easier to keep fishes that match
> >>your water than to try and adapt the water to your fishes.
> >>
> >>Soda will increase the pH, but can not keep it constant for long. In
> >>addition, the sodium ions increase the "total dissolved solids", often
> >>measured as conductivity. In effect you create a brack water tank that
> >>way, not all fishes can stand that.
> >>
> >>80 ppm nitrate is rather high, 10-20 ppm are mre usual. Ask your water
> >>supplier for the nitrate content of your tap water (or measure it
> >>yourself). If the high nitrates are not introduced with the tap water
> >>than you are probably doing not enough water changes. In that case you
> >>need to do something like a 2/3 change right away, followed by the usual
> >>1/5 every other week (for a planted tank, if you have no life plants, do
> >>it every week).
> >>
> >>If the tab water is that high in nitrate, I would be a little worried.
> >>In most countries, statutory limits are 20-50 ppm for drinking water as
> >>more can be dangerous especially to infants.
> >
> >
> > My tap water tests out as 0 nitrate, test kit is aquarium
pharmaceuticals
> > brand and tests todays nitrate in my bedroom tank at 160 ppm, mg/l,
blood
> > red on the chart. Nitrite in the tank tests at 0 today, general hardness
at
> > 11 dgh, carbonate hardness at 1 dkh, ph at 7.3 (between 7.0 and 7.5)
today.
> > Summary - the nitrates are high in my bedroom tank. Should I change 50%
of
> > water every day until they are around 30 (nitrates)? I do know that too
> > clean of water can cause osmotic shock and extremes in ph, elaine/netmax
any
> > recommendations? No sign of heavy breathing in the fish but the 2
females
> > tend to hang out at the surface sometimes, but they are gravid too.
Later
> > all! By the way - my nitrate test kit is aquarium pharmaceuticals brand
> > while the rest are tetra laborett brand.
> >
> "Too clean" water isn't the problem, unless you're talking about
> distilled. A sudden change to much cleaner water is usually a problem,
> though and can cause osmotic shock as you mentioned. I'd personally
> start with 15-20% water changes every couple of days and gradually
> increase the size of the water changes as nitrates fall and the
> tankwater becomes closer to your tapwater. That way you will avoid
> shocking your fish. After all, your fish are doing fine so there is no
> need to panic.
>
> Hopefully the aragonite you've added to the filter will pull that KH up
> becaue 1 dKH is too low to the pH stable. As for guppies at the
> surface, mine generally hang out there begging for food whenever I pass
> the tank.
>
> --
> Elaine T __
> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

Thank elaine! I currently plan on doing your recommended water changes
(15-20 percent, increasing as nitrates fall) and I actually haven't received
the aragonite yet but I currently plan on ordering it today or tomorrow, and
I think it will stabilize the whole thing and make a big difference. This
whole deal is pretty cool because it makes for long term success with my
pets and gives me more control - I still very much respect nature though of
course! Later!

[Dr Engelbert Buxbaum]

Daniel Morrow wrote:

> Should I change 50% of
> water every day until they are around 30 (nitrates)? I do know that too
> clean of water can cause osmotic shock and extremes in ph, elaine/netmax any
> recommendations?

The trick is to add the new water real slowly, and to make sure it mixes
well with the water in the tank. I put the water in a 20 l (about 4
gallon) canister onto a ladder, and then syphon it into the tank through
the type of thin hose that's normally used for airstones. The exit is
placed such that the water mixes with that coming from the filter. That
takes a good hour or so.