Live Sand Question

[FU Manchu]

Anyone seen any good sources of black live sand? Can I even use black sand?
Is there such a thing available for a small reef tank?

Thanks
That Guy Over There

[kim gross]

FU Manchu wrote:
> Anyone seen any good sources of black live sand? Can I even use black sand?
> Is there such a thing available for a small reef tank?
>
> Thanks
> That Guy Over There
>
>
I would guess that the only source of live back sand would be some
aquacultured sand, and to be honest I don't know of anybody that is
producing it. You might try INland Aquatics. Or just get the black
sand and rather than purchasing live sand go to Inland Aquatics and/or
IPSF and get the detrivore kits to seed your dead sand.

Kim
jensalt.com

[Don Geddis]

"FU Manchu" > wrote on Thu, 16 Jun 2005:
> Anyone seen any good sources of black live sand? Can I even use black sand?
> Is there such a thing available for a small reef tank?

I suspect that it wouldn't have the same beneficial effects as the (white)
live sand that most aquarists are used to.

In addition to nutrient processing, a Deep Sand Bed also aids with calcium
and alkalinity buffering, because generally people use a calcium-based sand
that has origins in broken-down coral reefs.

In nature, the black sand beaches (like on parts of Hawaii) are generally
the remains of volcanic activity. Volcanic rocks have a totally different
chemical composition than crushed-coral white sand beaches. Most likely,
their also filled with an abundance of heavy metals. I suspect that if you
just casually tried to find some black sand, and put it in your tank, that
you'd wind up quickly poisoning all your livestock as the metals leach into
the water.

Not to say that it's strictly impossible. But I've never heard of anyone
having live black sand in a sal****er tank (vs. [dead] black gravel in a
freshwater tank, which is possible). And I bet it wouldn't be easy to arrange.
You'd have to be awfully careful with the chemical composition of what you
set up. Almost certainly your first attempts would result in total failure.

-- Don
__________________________________________________ _____________________________
Don Geddis http://reef.geddis.org/
As Larry watched, the big hammerhead shark circled closer and closer. His eyes
were empty and death-like, and so were the shark's. He thought of all the
things he should have said to Linda, like "Help! A shark is attacking me!"
-- Deep Thoughts, by Jack Handey [1999]

[Pszemol]

"Don Geddis" > wrote in message ...
> In addition to nutrient processing, a Deep Sand Bed also aids with calcium
> and alkalinity buffering, because generally people use a calcium-based sand
> that has origins in broken-down coral reefs.

If you keep your tank properly maintained the calcium from the sand
has zero chance to get dissolve in the water...
This process happens when the pH drops below 7.5, which should
never happen in well maintained tank with good gases exchange
and clean water. Your pH level should stay at 8.2 or slowly swing
daily from 8.0, 8.1 after night to 8.3 after whole day of photosynthesis.
At this pH level calcium does not dissolve, so it would not matter
what is your sand made from.

On top of this, dont forget the sand particles will be sourounded with
living bacterial film. Bacteria, as living organisms, would modify
chemistry around the sand particles, so we will not be able to apply
regular inorganic chemistry rules to the process: bacteria will
successfully insulate sand particle from dissolving in water.

If you read many articles about Deep Sand Beds by dr Ron Shimek
you will find in many places references to the statement: it does
not matter what the sand is made from, it could be calcium, silica
or any other material. What does matter is what is the average
particle shape and what is the mixture of particle sizes in the sand.

[Billy]

"FU Manchu" > wrote in message
...
> Anyone seen any good sources of black live sand? Can I even use
> black sand? Is there such a thing available for a small reef tank?
>


You might be able to try seeding Seachem's Black Onyx, though I'd
research it before trying it in sal****er, and I'm not certain it's
porous enough to become very 'live'. I've been using it in freshwater
tanks for a couple years.

[Boomer]

Billy

If that is really Black Onyx, then it has no porosity at all, as it is microcrystalline
quartz. Onyx is a striped, variety of agate, with white, black, brown or red alternating
bands. It is different from regular agate only in that the bands of which it is composed
are parallel and regular.



--
Boomer

Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php


Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS

If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up


"Billy" > wrote in message
...
:
:
:
: "FU Manchu" > wrote in message
: ...
: > Anyone seen any good sources of black live sand? Can I even use
: > black sand? Is there such a thing available for a small reef tank?
: >
:
:
: You might be able to try seeding Seachem's Black Onyx, though I'd
: research it before trying it in sal****er, and I'm not certain it's
: porous enough to become very 'live'. I've been using it in freshwater
: tanks for a couple years.
:
:

[Boomer]

Yes Don most black sand is a sand naturally made from basaltic lava

--
Boomer

Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php


Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS

If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up


"Don Geddis" > wrote in message ...
: "FU Manchu" > wrote on Thu, 16 Jun 2005:
: > Anyone seen any good sources of black live sand? Can I even use black sand?
: > Is there such a thing available for a small reef tank?
:
: I suspect that it wouldn't have the same beneficial effects as the (white)
: live sand that most aquarists are used to.
:
: In addition to nutrient processing, a Deep Sand Bed also aids with calcium
: and alkalinity buffering, because generally people use a calcium-based sand
: that has origins in broken-down coral reefs.
:
: In nature, the black sand beaches (like on parts of Hawaii) are generally
: the remains of volcanic activity. Volcanic rocks have a totally different
: chemical composition than crushed-coral white sand beaches. Most likely,
: their also filled with an abundance of heavy metals. I suspect that if you
: just casually tried to find some black sand, and put it in your tank, that
: you'd wind up quickly poisoning all your livestock as the metals leach into
: the water.
:
: Not to say that it's strictly impossible. But I've never heard of anyone
: having live black sand in a sal****er tank (vs. [dead] black gravel in a
: freshwater tank, which is possible). And I bet it wouldn't be easy to arrange.
: You'd have to be awfully careful with the chemical composition of what you
: set up. Almost certainly your first attempts would result in total failure.
:
: -- Don
: __________________________________________________ _____________________________
: Don Geddis http://reef.geddis.org/
: As Larry watched, the big hammerhead shark circled closer and closer. His eyes
: were empty and death-like, and so were the shark's. He thought of all the
: things he should have said to Linda, like "Help! A shark is attacking me!"
: -- Deep Thoughts, by Jack Handey [1999]

[[email protected]]

FU Manchu wrote:
> Anyone seen any good sources of black live sand? Can I even use black sand?
> Is there such a thing available for a small reef tank?
>
> Thanks
> That Guy Over There

You could try this:

http://www.bigalsonline.com/catalog/product.xml?product_id=20545;category_id=2409

Then seed the sand with life.

[Billy]

"Boomer" > wrote in message
...
> Billy
>
> If that is really Black Onyx, then it has no porosity at all, as it
> is microcrystalline
> quartz. Onyx is a striped, variety of agate, with white, black,
> brown or red alternating
> bands. It is different from regular agate only in that the bands of
> which it is composed
> are parallel and regular.
>


I really don't know if it is. Black Onyx may just be the brand name,
but I'll be buying two bags today, I'll see what Seachem says about
it.

[Don Geddis]

wrote on 18 Jun 2005 06:3:
> You could try this:
> http://www.bigalsonline.com/catalog/product.xml?product_id=20545;category_id=2409
> Then seed the sand with life.

Wow! Black sand, and it claims it's good for sal****er fish, so I guess it
doesn't have the volcanic metal problems I was worried about. Looks like it's
from Tahiti, which is a very old volcanic chain (much less active than Hawaii,
I believe).

If that sand really works in sal****er, I might be interested in checking it
out myself!

-- Don
__________________________________________________ _____________________________
Don Geddis http://reef.geddis.org/
As I skipped the rock across the lake, I thought, My life is a lot like that
rock. It bounces up and down and then hits a scuba diver right in the face
mask.
-- Deep Thoughts, by Jack Handey [1999]

[Don Geddis]

"Pszemol" > wrote on Fri, 17 Jun 2005:
> If you keep your tank properly maintained the calcium from the sand
> has zero chance to get dissolve in the water...
> This process happens when the pH drops below 7.5, which should
> never happen in well maintained tank with good gases exchange
> and clean water. Your pH level should stay at 8.2 or slowly swing
> daily from 8.0, 8.1 after night to 8.3 after whole day of photosynthesis.
> At this pH level calcium does not dissolve, so it would not matter
> what is your sand made from.

Ah! Interesting. I didn't know this part of the chemistry. So, ok, maybe
it doesn't matter (for calcium).

> If you read many articles about Deep Sand Beds by dr Ron Shimek
> you will find in many places references to the statement: it does
> not matter what the sand is made from, it could be calcium, silica
> or any other material. What does matter is what is the average
> particle shape and what is the mixture of particle sizes in the sand.

Although, oddly, Rob Toonen's recent article
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2005/6/aafeature
provides data that suggests that particle sizes (along with depth of the sand
bed) don't matter at all.

-- Don
__________________________________________________ _____________________________
Don Geddis http://reef.geddis.org/
I guess more bad things have been done in the name of progress than any other.
I myself have been guilty of this. When I was a teen-ager, I stole a car and
drove it out into the desert and set it on fire. When the police showed up, I
just shrugged and said, "Hey, progress." Boy, did I have a lot to learn.
-- Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey [SNL]

[FU Manchu]

Thank you all for your amazing knowledge. I am gonna try some out in a
quarantine tank first to be sure and to seed the sand. Then I may do a nano
reef with it. I'll be sure to post the results.

That Guy Over There

[Pszemol]

"Don Geddis" > wrote in message ...
>> If you read many articles about Deep Sand Beds by dr Ron Shimek
>> you will find in many places references to the statement: it does
>> not matter what the sand is made from, it could be calcium, silica
>> or any other material. What does matter is what is the average
>> particle shape and what is the mixture of particle sizes in the sand.
>
> Although, oddly, Rob Toonen's recent article
> http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2005/6/aafeature
> provides data that suggests that particle sizes (along with depth of the sand
> bed) don't matter at all.

I skimmed through the article you linked here and this article does
not deal with DSB. They talk about plenums and compare them
to what they call deep sand beds but these are not DSB dr Shimek
is talking about - they have no animals in the sandbed!

Don, please be sure to not mix plenum systems with DSB systems.

They rely on different principles of "operations". DSBs expect live
populations of worms, micro-shellfish, micro-crustaceans - these
animals REQUIRE special particle sizes in sand to live. They just
dont survive in too fine sand and too coarse sand. For details I will
ask you to read dr Shimek articles about DSB... They are available
on www.reefcentral.com forum, check in "Experts forums".

When you have no animals living in the sand, sand particle size matters
only in the way of the active surface: when you have small particles
you will get LARGER active surface of the sand bed for bacteria to
work on. Of course with smaller particles size the water circulations
and oxygen content is smaller if you compare sediments with no animals
stirring sand and leting oxygen/nutriens rich water to deeper layers.

I would highly recommend reading articles about DSB... you will not regret you did :-)

[RicSeyler]

Ahh........ Moon Sand, that explains it ;-) hehehe

Don Geddis wrote:

wrote on 18 Jun 2005 06:3:
>
>
>>You could try this:
>>http://www.bigalsonline.com/catalog/product.xml?product_id=20545;category_id=2409
>>Then seed the sand with life.
>>
>>
>
>
>
>

--
Ric Seyler