Ph, hardness, baking soda related question(s)....

[Daniel Morrow]

My tap water tests at 7.0, should I continue adding baking soda or just
change water twice as often to control high nitrites/nitrates in my bedroom
tank (small, 15 gallon tank)? See my other post about how I think I might be
experiencing ots/ph crash but I have caught it in time. Basically my ph
keeps dropping low (6.0 before I changed 50 percent of that tank's water and
gravel vacced it, half an hour ago.) and seashells don't seem to be keeping
it higher. Common sense tells me that I shouldn't mess with the baking soda
any longer and I already have committed myself to gravel vaccing and
changing water twice as often (every week is planned) as the baking soda is
like with playing with chemicals to change water quality (ie. it's too easy
to mess up by putting in too much or too little), is this correct common
sense? Thanks! Later!

[Mean_Chlorine]

Thusly "Daniel Morrow" > Spake Unto All:

>My tap water tests at 7.0, should I continue adding baking soda or just
>change water twice as often to control high nitrites/nitrates in my bedroom
>tank (small, 15 gallon tank)?

Water changes never hurt.

> See my other post about how I think I might be
>experiencing ots/ph crash but I have caught it in time. Basically my ph
>keeps dropping low (6.0 before I changed 50 percent of that tank's water and
>gravel vacced it, half an hour ago.)

Do you trust your pH test?
If you're using a drop test, the chemicals have a shelf-life of about
a year, after which the readings will drift. If you're using any kind
of pH paper or 'multi sticks', I can pretty much guarantee that your
readings are _way_ off, regardless of the age of the kit.

>and seashells don't seem to be keeping
>it higher.

That's the reason I'm suspicious. Unless you're dosing CO2 to the
tank, the shells should be able to keep pH at 7-7.5 given normal
loads.

Tell you what, mix a tablespoon of bicarbonate in a cup of water, and
when it's fully dissolved and there's no bubbles, measure pH. You
should get a reading of 7.5 - 8.5 (the actual value will be 8.3, but
given the accuracy of kits 7.5 - 8.5 is good enough).

>any longer and I already have committed myself to gravel vaccing and
>changing water twice as often (every week is planned) as the baking soda is
>like with playing with chemicals to change water quality (ie. it's too easy
>to mess up by putting in too much or too little), is this correct common
>sense? Thanks! Later!

1) I agree with more frequent water changes. As I said, it never
hurts.
2) It's difficult to overdose baking soda. It will not raise pH over
8.3, which is safe for all fish, and you'll have to add a lot for the
sodium to become a problem.
Just make sure you use baking SODA, and not baking POWDER.

[Scat]

I agree with Mean_Chlorine.
Baking Soda improves the buffering KH of the water, which will help
stabilise your PH. What is your KH test result?
After adding baking soda to your water, wait until the following day
before taking PH readings. This will give time for gases to escape that
could temporarily lower pH and skew your test results.
You could also use aragonite/coral sand/gravel as your substrate,
aswell as in your filter.

[Daniel Morrow]

"Mean_Chlorine" > wrote in message
...
> Thusly "Daniel Morrow" > Spake Unto All:
>
> >My tap water tests at 7.0, should I continue adding baking soda or just
> >change water twice as often to control high nitrites/nitrates in my
bedroom
> >tank (small, 15 gallon tank)?
>
> Water changes never hurt.
>
> > See my other post about how I think I might be
> >experiencing ots/ph crash but I have caught it in time. Basically my ph
> >keeps dropping low (6.0 before I changed 50 percent of that tank's water
and
> >gravel vacced it, half an hour ago.)
>
> Do you trust your pH test?
> If you're using a drop test, the chemicals have a shelf-life of about
> a year, after which the readings will drift. If you're using any kind
> of pH paper or 'multi sticks', I can pretty much guarantee that your
> readings are _way_ off, regardless of the age of the kit.
>
> >and seashells don't seem to be keeping
> >it higher.
>
> That's the reason I'm suspicious. Unless you're dosing CO2 to the
> tank, the shells should be able to keep pH at 7-7.5 given normal
> loads.
>
> Tell you what, mix a tablespoon of bicarbonate in a cup of water, and
> when it's fully dissolved and there's no bubbles, measure pH. You
> should get a reading of 7.5 - 8.5 (the actual value will be 8.3, but
> given the accuracy of kits 7.5 - 8.5 is good enough).

I get a reading of 8.0 ph. The kit uses the drop method, not paper
(litmus?). The kit is only a few months old (~4).


>
> >any longer and I already have committed myself to gravel vaccing and
> >changing water twice as often (every week is planned) as the baking soda
is
> >like with playing with chemicals to change water quality (ie. it's too
easy
> >to mess up by putting in too much or too little), is this correct common
> >sense? Thanks! Later!
>
> 1) I agree with more frequent water changes. As I said, it never
> hurts.
> 2) It's difficult to overdose baking soda. It will not raise pH over
> 8.3, which is safe for all fish, and you'll have to add a lot for the
> sodium to become a problem.
> Just make sure you use baking SODA, and not baking POWDER.

I am using arm and hammer baking soda.


>

[Daniel Morrow]

"Scat" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> I agree with Mean_Chlorine.
> Baking Soda improves the buffering KH of the water, which will help
> stabilise your PH. What is your KH test result?

Surprisingly I just tested and kh is 11 dkh and the general hardness was
even 12 dgh. So I am very confused unless I can rationalize it by saying
that there isn't anything wrong (except the test kit's report) and that the
2 female fancy guppies were just plain hanging out at the surface just for
the heck of it. In the past general hardness was approximately 3 dgh and kh
was around 7 or so, so I could use your expertise here to figure this out.
Yep, kit readings are highly inaccurate - just tested the bedroom tank ph
and it's 7.5-8.0 now. The only thing I can think of why it is higher now is
that I tested the tapwater with cold water and I changed 50 percent of the
tank's water with gravel vaccing too, yesterday. <totally befuddled> I guess
this kit sucks or something. Please comment further - thanks! The kit is a
tetra laborette.


> After adding baking soda to your water, wait until the following day
> before taking PH readings. This will give time for gases to escape that
> could temporarily lower pH and skew your test results.
> You could also use aragonite/coral sand/gravel as your substrate,
> aswell as in your filter.
>

[Daniel Morrow]

"Daniel Morrow" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Scat" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > I agree with Mean_Chlorine.
> > Baking Soda improves the buffering KH of the water, which will help
> > stabilise your PH. What is your KH test result?
>
> Surprisingly I just tested and kh is 11 dkh and the general hardness was
> even 12 dgh. So I am very confused unless I can rationalize it by saying
> that there isn't anything wrong (except the test kit's report) and that
the
> 2 female fancy guppies were just plain hanging out at the surface just for
> the heck of it. In the past general hardness was approximately 3 dgh and
kh
> was around 7 or so, so I could use your expertise here to figure this out.
> Yep, kit readings are highly inaccurate - just tested the bedroom tank ph
> and it's 7.5-8.0 now. The only thing I can think of why it is higher now
is
> that I tested the tapwater with cold water

(what about chlorine interfering with the test kit readings?)

[Daniel Morrow]

> > > I agree with Mean_Chlorine.
> > > Baking Soda improves the buffering KH of the water, which will help
> > > stabilise your PH. What is your KH test result?
> >

Surprisingly I just tested and kh is 11 dkh and the general hardness was
even 12 dgh. So I am very confused unless I can rationalize it by saying
that there isn't anything wrong (except the test kit's report) and that the
2 female fancy guppies were just plain hanging out at the surface just for
the heck of it. In the past general hardness was approximately 3 dgh and kh
was around 7 or so, so I could use your expertise here to figure this out.
Yep, kit readings are highly inaccurate - just tested the bedroom tank ph
and it's 7.5-8.0 now. The only thing I can think of why it is higher now is
that I tested the tapwater with cold water (what about chlorine interfering
with the test kit readings?).

[Scat]

Hi there
Sorry about the delay in the reply.
How are your fish? Has the Ph stabilised yet?

Yes, Chlorine in tapwater can skew your test results. Always
dechlorinate or wait 24hrs for more accurate test results.

Test kits have a use by date too so check the box.
I had a secondhand DRY-TAB testkit, that was out of date by a year. I
was wondering why my ammonia readings were always !zero! after adding
pure ammonia to the water. (I was doing a fishless cycle).
I bought a new NUTRAFIN testkit, which is giving me readings that I
expect.
I've heard that Aqua Pharmaceuticals are the best. (My LFS didn't stock
any).

Your KH 11 sounds OK. That should help stabilise your PH at about 8.0.
Your shells, coral sand and baking soda would have taken at least 24hrs
to stabilise your tank. Chlorine would also have evaporated in that
time, giving you higher PH readings.

"...general hardness was even 12 dgh."
Water hardness refers to the amount of suspended solids in the water
(mainly magnesium). These don't remain suspended. The water changes
that you have been donig will have increased the water hardness. 12 dgh
is definitely better than 3dgh, though I've read that guppies prefer
water to be harder, around 15-25dgh.
If your guppies still seem unhappy with the stabilised PH (assuming its
stabilised), You can raise your General Hardness with epsom salts.(Bear
in mind I am unaware of your other fish, or their preferences).

A baseline recommendation is 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons of water
(dissolve in a cup of aquarium water if adding directly to the
tank).Do over a couple of days.

Also remember and check your water temperature. Its summertime.
Warmer water =Less dissolved oxygen. Your fish might have been
surfacing to breathe. Aim for 26 oC.
Hope this helps.
Kim

[Rocco Moretti]

Scat wrote:

> "...general hardness was even 12 dgh."
> Water hardness refers to the amount of suspended solids in the water
> (mainly magnesium). These don't remain suspended. The water changes
> that you have been donig will have increased the water hardness.

While there are some areas where GH is made up of primarily Magnesium,
most places a high GH is due to dissolved calcium (from limestone
aquifers, mainly). In any rate, the calcium/magnesium is *dissolved*,
not suspended. Although some Ca/Mg may come out with
outgassing/evaporation, a tightly closed container of hard water doesn't
loose GH just by standing, as would be expected if the GH was merely
"suspended."

The effect of water changes on GH depends on the relative GH of the two
solutions - if there is significant calcium carbonate in the tank
(limestone or marble based rocks, crushed coral, sea shells), doing a
w/c would *decrease* GH, at least temporarily, until more calcium could
dissolve from those sources. [The OP does say he has seashells in his
tank, which would increase the GH, unless they're coated, in which case
the would do nothing.]

> If your guppies still seem unhappy with the stabilised PH (assuming its
> stabilised), You can raise your General Hardness with epsom salts.(Bear
> in mind I am unaware of your other fish, or their preferences).
>
> A baseline recommendation is 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons of water
> (dissolve in a cup of aquarium water if adding directly to the
> tank).Do over a couple of days.

You should also be aware that Epsom salts are also used as a purgative
(i.e. laxative). I'm not sure what an excess would do for the fish.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that most fish
that do well in high GH water have much of a problem adjusting to low GH
water. GH doesn't really do much (not in the same sense as pH and KH),
except for giving a rough idea on how much calcium there is in the
water. (Which Epsom salts wouldn't change, despite raising the GH level
- you'd have to add calcium chloride or calcium carbonate (lime/crushed
coral) to do that.)

If you wanted to increase GH, I'd recommend adding crushed
coral/argonite sand to the tank - something with a large surface area
which would allow for an appreciable rate of dissolution. It would also
help with keeping the water buffered (at a high pH, but hard and acidic
is a rare combination).

[Daniel Morrow]

"Scat" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hi there
> Sorry about the delay in the reply.

It's cool.


> How are your fish?

The fish seem to be doing great.

Has the Ph stabilised yet?

I don't think the ph has totally stablized yet but it is a lot better, less
significant changes over the last few days.


>
> Yes, Chlorine in tapwater can skew your test results. Always
> dechlorinate or wait 24hrs for more accurate test results.

Cool to know!


>
> Test kits have a use by date too so check the box.
> I had a secondhand DRY-TAB testkit, that was out of date by a year. I
> was wondering why my ammonia readings were always !zero! after adding
> pure ammonia to the water. (I was doing a fishless cycle).
> I bought a new NUTRAFIN testkit, which is giving me readings that I
> expect.
> I've heard that Aqua Pharmaceuticals are the best. (My LFS didn't stock
> any).
>
> Your KH 11 sounds OK. That should help stabilise your PH at about 8.0.
> Your shells, coral sand and baking soda would have taken at least 24hrs
> to stabilise your tank. Chlorine would also have evaporated in that
> time, giving you higher PH readings.
>
> "...general hardness was even 12 dgh."
> Water hardness refers to the amount of suspended solids in the water
> (mainly magnesium). These don't remain suspended. The water changes
> that you have been donig will have increased the water hardness. 12 dgh
> is definitely better than 3dgh, though I've read that guppies prefer
> water to be harder, around 15-25dgh.
> If your guppies still seem unhappy with the stabilised PH (assuming its
> stabilised), You can raise your General Hardness with epsom salts.(Bear
> in mind I am unaware of your other fish, or their preferences).
>
> A baseline recommendation is 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons of water
> (dissolve in a cup of aquarium water if adding directly to the
> tank).Do over a couple of days.
>

That is also cool to know that people can use epsom salts to raise gh!


> Also remember and check your water temperature. Its summertime.
> Warmer water =Less dissolved oxygen. Your fish might have been
> surfacing to breathe. Aim for 26 oC.
> Hope this helps.
> Kim


This tank has literally 4 (!) pumps pumping air into 2 air wands and 2 2
inch airstones. Should be plenty of aeration and oxygen in the water.

My plan is to do 15 percent to 20 percent water changes per day increasing
volume as nitrates come down until they are low enough, and to order some
aragonite and put that in my canister filter which should boost kh real good
and help keep the ph nice and high. I do have seashells in the tank but they
don't seem to do much for the kh, the aragonite should work great though. I
will use my seachem "the bag" to hold the aragonite in the canister filter.
I am going to keep your and rocco's messages handy for future reference -
thank you to you both for helping me figure this out, it helped me a lot.
Thanks kim - feel free to enlighten me some more, later!

P.s. - I am really happy with target fertilizing my amazon sword plant in
this bedroom tank. I use jungle plant food tablets (1 per week right now - I
drop the tablet into the heart of the plants root system, on top of the
substrate) and it seems to be growing reassuringly, much better results than
without. If it vegetatively reproduces or grows a flower I will be in heaven
and very elated. Thanks elaine for pointing me in the right direction, and I
might try treating the entire tank (15 gallon in my bedroom) with flourish
excel and keep using my flourish iron)! Later!

[Daniel Morrow]

I changed 2/3 of the water yesterday and 15 percent today. I have lower
nitrates (around 40-60) now and will continue water changes until around 25
or so. The fish still seem just fine, I even got a look at on of my kuhlis
today. I ordered the aragonite (carib sea - bermuda pink 5-10 mm grains)
today and will have it within a week. Got my seachem "the bag" ready to put
the aragonite in the canister filter. Later! (by the way - I am measuring
the nitrates before water changes)

[Daniel Morrow]

"Daniel Morrow" > wrote in message
...
> I changed 2/3 of the water yesterday and 15 percent today. I have lower
> nitrates (around 40-60) now and will continue water changes until around
25
> or so. The fish still seem just fine, I even got a look at on of my kuhlis
> today. I ordered the aragonite (carib sea - bermuda pink 5-10 mm grains)
> today and will have it within a week. Got my seachem "the bag" ready to
put
> the aragonite in the canister filter. Later! (by the way - I am measuring
> the nitrates before water changes)
>
>
I have been doing daily water changes and now my bedroom tank tests at 5-10
ppm (mg/l) nitrates! I thought I would reinforce the good effect of water
changes, it worked for me! I am still going to put the aragonite type
substrate in the bedroom tank's fluval msf 104 canister filter because my
tap water is super soft (2-3 dkh, and 6 or 7 dgh), even after adding the tap
water to the tank, obviously. And that should provide a good stable ph.
Thanks everyone for your help! Later!