Need discus help [Archive] - FishKeepingBanter.com

Elaine T

June 20th 05, 08:18 PM

I'm in an odd situation. I have a heavily planted 15 gallon tank and
had room for a couple more fish - I broke my canopy and had two jumpers
before I got it fixed. It was my birthday and BF wanted to buy me fish
so I asked for a few cardinals. He came home with a few cardinals AND a
small discus! Ack! LFS told him a discus could live in a 15 gallon
community tank - they have now completely lost my business.

The discus is a generous gift, but will obviously outgrow the tank in
time. I've already found "Flower" a home once he's grown enough to
defend himself with larger discus.

My questions are about care in a community. I've kept discus before but
only in a dedicated tank with a mix of temperature tolerant and silk
plants. This tank has a wide variety of plants and community fish -
hungry rasboras, an SAE, a pygmy loach, otos, and now the cardinals. I
considered it full without the discus. So...

1) What temps will allow the plants and other fish to live and not kill
the discus? I've got it at 80-81F now, from advice on discus and plants
on George Booth's website. In the past I kept my discus at 85F, but
that will melt my plants. Also, are PMDD and Excel compatible with discus?

2) How do I have enough food around for the discus to feed slowly
without overfeeding the tank? So far he's not eaten much but that's not
surprising.

3) My fish already react badly to water changes - I think my tapwater
has something in it that irritates the fish. I'm probably looking at
twice weekly 30% water changes to keep the water quality good enough for
Flower because of the stocking level of the tank. How do I manage this?

4) I've kept discus in hard water before (with mixed success), but I'm
not sure that the mix of lower temps and pH 7.6 is going to work. I've
softened the water as best I can with coconut fiber and blackwater
extract but the fish is still stressed. Are there better buffers out there?

Please don't tell me to buy another tank, find a home for the fish,
yadda yadda. Flower is a gift and I would hurt my BF by not making the
best of it for as long as he fits the tank.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

Rocco Moretti

June 20th 05, 08:42 PM

Elaine T wrote:

> 3) My fish already react badly to water changes - I think my tapwater
> has something in it that irritates the fish. I'm probably looking at
> twice weekly 30% water changes to keep the water quality good enough for
> Flower because of the stocking level of the tank. How do I manage this?

Try filtering the water change water through activated charcoal - if it
is an organic irritant, the charcoal should take (most of) it out. At
the last resort, you could always do w/c with RO water adjusted with
baking soda & other salts.

> 4) I've kept discus in hard water before (with mixed success), but I'm
> not sure that the mix of lower temps and pH 7.6 is going to work. I've
> softened the water as best I can with coconut fiber and blackwater
> extract but the fish is still stressed. Are there better buffers out
> there?

You could always try partial RO water to soften the water. If you don't
have an RO unit yourself, you can either buy it from your new LFS, or
I've seen relatively cheap "dispense it yourself" RO water at the local
grocery store.

NetMax

June 20th 05, 10:10 PM

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
om...
> I'm in an odd situation. I have a heavily planted 15 gallon tank and
> had room for a couple more fish - I broke my canopy and had two jumpers
> before I got it fixed. It was my birthday and BF wanted to buy me fish
> so I asked for a few cardinals. He came home with a few cardinals AND
> a small discus! Ack! LFS told him a discus could live in a 15 gallon
> community tank - they have now completely lost my business.

A BF? So many hearts have now been shattered across the ng ;~).

> The discus is a generous gift, but will obviously outgrow the tank in
> time. I've already found "Flower" a home once he's grown enough to
> defend himself with larger discus.

If Flower survives the transition, you will have a few months to figure
how exactly how tall a hex tank would take the same surface area of that
15g ;~)

> My questions are about care in a community. I've kept discus before
> but only in a dedicated tank with a mix of temperature tolerant and
> silk plants. This tank has a wide variety of plants and community
> fish - hungry rasboras, an SAE, a pygmy loach, otos, and now the
> cardinals. I considered it full without the discus. So...
>
> 1) What temps will allow the plants and other fish to live and not kill
> the discus? I've got it at 80-81F now, from advice on discus and
> plants on George Booth's website. In the past I kept my discus at 85F,
> but that will melt my plants. Also, are PMDD and Excel compatible with
> discus?

No problem on the 80-81F. People pamper Discus too much. They come
from, cohabitate and compete with Angelfish, Plecos, Corys and a huge
amount of tetras. They are actually very tough fish, typically
transported (wild-caught) on their sides with just enough water to cover
them. I think their reputation for fragility comes from a lower
metabolism which makes them more suceptible to the higher concentration
of pathogens which you would see in an aquarium. I've never heard of
PMDD or Excel not being compatible with any fish, though I can imagine
some PMDD could be hard on smaller fish. Quit dosing for a while (the
extra fish will compensate with their own fertilizer).

> 2) How do I have enough food around for the discus to feed slowly
> without overfeeding the tank? So far he's not eaten much but that's
> not surprising.

The issue is the transition from shy reclusive fish to gregarious pushy
cichlid. Once this transition is completed, you will wonder why you
worried ;~). Seriously though, spot feeding, hand feeding, feeding rings
etc might need to be utilized for a while.

> 3) My fish already react badly to water changes - I think my tapwater
> has something in it that irritates the fish. I'm probably looking at
> twice weekly 30% water changes to keep the water quality good enough
> for Flower because of the stocking level of the tank. How do I manage
> this?

Someone mentioned carbon. Excellent idea. There are many grades, buy
the best you can find. Water treatment supply houses have the good
stuff. It is not the soak time which is important as much as the flow
rate. You want a nice slow flow rate through the carbon bed (throw a
little peat in there too).

> 4) I've kept discus in hard water before (with mixed success), but I'm
> not sure that the mix of lower temps and pH 7.6 is going to work. I've
> softened the water as best I can with coconut fiber and blackwater
> extract but the fish is still stressed. Are there better buffers out
> there?

It's all relative. I've had Discus who positively looked like they were
going to drop a litter of marbles at 7.7pH and others who looked
oblivious. The answer is comparing the conditions he originated from.
Personally, I've found that within a certain pH range, they are more
interested in being in soft water, but this varies by origin as well.
None of them mind soft hot acidic water, so this became the rule to keep
them in, but you know about acclimation and origin of birth conditions
affecting them more pronouncely.

> Please don't tell me to buy another tank, find a home for the fish,
> yadda yadda. Flower is a gift and I would hurt my BF by not making the
> best of it for as long as he fits the tank.

How romantic *sheesh, why didn't I think of the Discus idea ;~) *. I
don't think a stay in a 15g will neccesarily be bad (all those plants and
cozy corners close together). The problem is the acclimation and the
lack of quarantine, tsk tsk. If the fish survives a month (and I
sincerely wish it does as I know you'll take it personally), let the BF
buy the 42g hex tank, and lose the 15g.

All this talk about not being able to ever get another tank is close to
blasphemy anyways. I once installed a tank in a hallway closet and then
cut a hole in the closet so the tank was facing into a room. My last
install was a tank into a bookcase (who needs so many books with the
internet ;~). Show me a space and I can design an aquarium into it.
--
www.NetMax.tk

> --
> Elaine T __
> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

Gill Passman

June 20th 05, 10:38 PM

Derek Benson

June 20th 05, 10:45 PM

On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 19:18:59 GMT, Elaine T >
wrote:

>I'm in an odd situation. I have a heavily planted 15 gallon tank and
>had room for a couple more fish - I broke my canopy and had two jumpers
>before I got it fixed. It was my birthday and BF wanted to buy me fish
>so I asked for a few cardinals. He came home with a few cardinals AND a
>small discus! Ack! LFS told him a discus could live in a 15 gallon
>community tank - they have now completely lost my business.
>
>The discus is a generous gift, but will obviously outgrow the tank in
>time. I've already found "Flower" a home once he's grown enough to
>defend himself with larger discus.
>
>My questions are about care in a community. I've kept discus before but
>only in a dedicated tank with a mix of temperature tolerant and silk
>plants. This tank has a wide variety of plants and community fish -
>hungry rasboras, an SAE, a pygmy loach, otos, and now the cardinals. I
>considered it full without the discus. So...
>
>1) What temps will allow the plants and other fish to live and not kill
>the discus? I've got it at 80-81F now, from advice on discus and plants
>on George Booth's website. In the past I kept my discus at 85F, but
>that will melt my plants. Also, are PMDD and Excel compatible with discus?

My Discus are at about 80-81 degrees too, and they seem to be fine.
The other fish and plants are fine at this temp also. What are PMDD
and Excel? The only Excel I know anything about is the MS spreadsheet
computer program.

>2) How do I have enough food around for the discus to feed slowly
>without overfeeding the tank? So far he's not eaten much but that's not
>surprising.

I don't go along with this concept that people seem to write about
which goes along the lines of Discus preferring to eat slowly. My
Discus are with a ravenous group of large Congo Tetras and a Black
Ghost, and the Congos feed like Barracuda, incredibly fast. My Discus
mix it up with the Congos to get their share, and don't have any
problem. One thing you can try is to put in some flake food, the other
fish are going for it, and drop in some frozen bloodworms or whatever
frozen food you use at the same time, which food will sink down to the
Discus while all the other fish are busy with the flake.

>3) My fish already react badly to water changes - I think my tapwater
>has something in it that irritates the fish. I'm probably looking at
>twice weekly 30% water changes to keep the water quality good enough for
>Flower because of the stocking level of the tank. How do I manage this?

Have you tried contacting your water company and asked for their
chemical analysis of the water they're providing? There might be
something simple in the water which is non-toxic for us, but not very
good for fish. Copper, just to name an example, might be found in some
cities' water supplies.

>4) I've kept discus in hard water before (with mixed success), but I'm
>not sure that the mix of lower temps and pH 7.6 is going to work. I've
>softened the water as best I can with coconut fiber and blackwater
>extract but the fish is still stressed. Are there better buffers out there?

I don't mess with the water where I live, so I don't have any good
advice on this.

>Please don't tell me to buy another tank, find a home for the fish,
>yadda yadda. Flower is a gift and I would hurt my BF by not making the
>best of it for as long as he fits the tank.

Yadda yadda. <-- meant to be humorous. Ho ho.
-Derek

Elaine T

June 20th 05, 11:09 PM

Derek Benson wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 19:18:59 GMT, Elaine T >
> wrote:
>
>
>>I'm in an odd situation. I have a heavily planted 15 gallon tank and
>>had room for a couple more fish - I broke my canopy and had two jumpers
>>before I got it fixed. It was my birthday and BF wanted to buy me fish
>>so I asked for a few cardinals. He came home with a few cardinals AND a
>>small discus! Ack! LFS told him a discus could live in a 15 gallon
>>community tank - they have now completely lost my business.
>>
>>The discus is a generous gift, but will obviously outgrow the tank in
>>time. I've already found "Flower" a home once he's grown enough to
>>defend himself with larger discus.
>>
>>My questions are about care in a community. I've kept discus before but
>>only in a dedicated tank with a mix of temperature tolerant and silk
>>plants. This tank has a wide variety of plants and community fish -
>>hungry rasboras, an SAE, a pygmy loach, otos, and now the cardinals. I
>>considered it full without the discus. So...
>>
>>1) What temps will allow the plants and other fish to live and not kill
>>the discus? I've got it at 80-81F now, from advice on discus and plants
>>on George Booth's website. In the past I kept my discus at 85F, but
>>that will melt my plants. Also, are PMDD and Excel compatible with discus?
>
>
> My Discus are at about 80-81 degrees too, and they seem to be fine.
> The other fish and plants are fine at this temp also. What are PMDD
> and Excel? The only Excel I know anything about is the MS spreadsheet
> computer program.

Glad to hear some confirmation on the lower temps. Thanks!

PMDD is Poor Man's Dupla Drops, a DIY plant fertilizer mix. I use the
Conlin-Sears recipe. It contains a hydroponic trace element mix, iron,
K2S04, MgS04, and KNO3 if the tank is low on nitrate. Excel is
Seachem's Flourish Excel, a carbon source which allows plants to grow
somewhat better without CO2. I know of folks have used PMDD with
discus. I don't know about Flourish Excel.

>>2) How do I have enough food around for the discus to feed slowly
>>without overfeeding the tank? So far he's not eaten much but that's not
>>surprising.
>
>
> I don't go along with this concept that people seem to write about
> which goes along the lines of Discus preferring to eat slowly. My
> Discus are with a ravenous group of large Congo Tetras and a Black
> Ghost, and the Congos feed like Barracuda, incredibly fast. My Discus
> mix it up with the Congos to get their share, and don't have any
> problem. One thing you can try is to put in some flake food, the other
> fish are going for it, and drop in some frozen bloodworms or whatever
> frozen food you use at the same time, which food will sink down to the
> Discus while all the other fish are busy with the flake.

Cool! So they can do the aggressive cichlid thing. I've kept congos
(glorious fish!) - my rasboras are slow compared to them. The discus I
had before liked to pick at their food, but I stocked the tank so that
they had ample opportunity. I'll try the flake and bloodworm trick,
because the bloodworms sink right by the rasboras.

>>3) My fish already react badly to water changes - I think my tapwater
>>has something in it that irritates the fish. I'm probably looking at
>>twice weekly 30% water changes to keep the water quality good enough for
>>Flower because of the stocking level of the tank. How do I manage this?
>
>
> Have you tried contacting your water company and asked for their
> chemical analysis of the water they're providing? There might be
> something simple in the water which is non-toxic for us, but not very
> good for fish. Copper, just to name an example, might be found in some
> cities' water supplies.

I've looked at the analysis and nothing stands out. I match temps and
haven't seen big pH differences between tap and tank water either. The
stressful effects of water changes are clear, though, with otos darting
about the tank and Amano shrimp swimming around hunting for somewhere
else to go. I also tried Tetra's AquaSafe which is supposed to chelate
metals like copper and haven't seen a difference.

>>4) I've kept discus in hard water before (with mixed success), but I'm
>>not sure that the mix of lower temps and pH 7.6 is going to work. I've
>>softened the water as best I can with coconut fiber and blackwater
>>extract but the fish is still stressed. Are there better buffers out there?
>
>
> I don't mess with the water where I live, so I don't have any good
> advice on this.
>
>
>>Please don't tell me to buy another tank, find a home for the fish,
>>yadda yadda. Flower is a gift and I would hurt my BF by not making the
>>best of it for as long as he fits the tank.
>
>
> Yadda yadda. <-- meant to be humorous. Ho ho.
> -Derek

*grin* Thanks for the suggestions.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

Elaine T

June 20th 05, 11:32 PM

Gill Passman wrote:
> "Elaine T" > wrote in message
> om...
>
>>I'm in an odd situation. I have a heavily planted 15 gallon tank and
>>had room for a couple more fish - I broke my canopy and had two jumpers
>>before I got it fixed. It was my birthday and BF wanted to buy me fish
>>so I asked for a few cardinals. He came home with a few cardinals AND a
>>small discus! Ack! LFS told him a discus could live in a 15 gallon
>>community tank - they have now completely lost my business.
>>
>>The discus is a generous gift, but will obviously outgrow the tank in
>>time. I've already found "Flower" a home once he's grown enough to
>>defend himself with larger discus.
>>
>>My questions are about care in a community. I've kept discus before but
>>only in a dedicated tank with a mix of temperature tolerant and silk
>>plants. This tank has a wide variety of plants and community fish -
>>hungry rasboras, an SAE, a pygmy loach, otos, and now the cardinals. I
>>considered it full without the discus. So...
>>
>>1) What temps will allow the plants and other fish to live and not kill
>>the discus? I've got it at 80-81F now, from advice on discus and plants
>>on George Booth's website. In the past I kept my discus at 85F, but
>>that will melt my plants. Also, are PMDD and Excel compatible with
>
> discus?
>
>>2) How do I have enough food around for the discus to feed slowly
>>without overfeeding the tank? So far he's not eaten much but that's not
>>surprising.
>>
>>3) My fish already react badly to water changes - I think my tapwater
>>has something in it that irritates the fish. I'm probably looking at
>>twice weekly 30% water changes to keep the water quality good enough for
>>Flower because of the stocking level of the tank. How do I manage this?
>>
>>4) I've kept discus in hard water before (with mixed success), but I'm
>>not sure that the mix of lower temps and pH 7.6 is going to work. I've
>>softened the water as best I can with coconut fiber and blackwater
>>extract but the fish is still stressed. Are there better buffers out
>
> there?
>
>>Please don't tell me to buy another tank, find a home for the fish,
>>yadda yadda. Flower is a gift and I would hurt my BF by not making the
>>best of it for as long as he fits the tank.
>>
>>--
>>Elaine T __
>>http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
>>rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com
>
>
> HAPPY BIRTHDAY :-)
>
> And you already know the answer.....enjoy Flower while you have her and if
> you can keep her....you never know by the time she outgrows the tank you
> might have moved to somewhere you can have a bigger tank - lol
>
> If you can squeeze in a tank to suit her requirements do it for the sake of
> the other fish...if not reach a compromise for her and the other fish....it
> really will depend on the conditions she has been kept under before you got
> her....maybe LFS have the same conditions as you....if she is truly stressed
> maybe take BF and fish back and make a choice together....difficult I know
> for BF (just had the hubby routine on the fish maintenance and NG)...but
> positioned right just might work...
>
> Good luck
> Gill
>
>
You're so right. That's why he's named Flower. BF had hoped he would
last longer and be prettier than the flowers he would have bought
otherwise. The name is a reminder that like flowers, he might be
transient. Plus I just saw Bambi the other day. ;-) Of course, to me
fish are not disposable so I'm doing the best I can to give Flower a
good life. Heck - who knows what other confused person may have bought
Flower anyway.

I won't worry about Flower being stressed until it's lasted a full week.
The cardinals that also went in Friday are just starting to explore
today and discus are even slower to adapt to new surroundings. My tank
is very different from LFS' discus tank. It's cooler, higher pH (I
acclimated Flower for over 6 hours), has lots of other species of fish,
and Flower is the only discus when he would prefer friends.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

Elaine T

June 20th 05, 11:46 PM

Rocco Moretti wrote:
> Elaine T wrote:
>
>> 3) My fish already react badly to water changes - I think my tapwater
>> has something in it that irritates the fish. I'm probably looking at
>> twice weekly 30% water changes to keep the water quality good enough
>> for Flower because of the stocking level of the tank. How do I manage
>> this?
>
>
> Try filtering the water change water through activated charcoal - if it
> is an organic irritant, the charcoal should take (most of) it out. At
> the last resort, you could always do w/c with RO water adjusted with
> baking soda & other salts.

How long would you suggest filtering? Overnight? Carbon would also
remove chloramines, which would be nice.

>> 4) I've kept discus in hard water before (with mixed success), but I'm
>> not sure that the mix of lower temps and pH 7.6 is going to work.
>> I've softened the water as best I can with coconut fiber and
>> blackwater extract but the fish is still stressed. Are there better
>> buffers out there?
>
>
> You could always try partial RO water to soften the water. If you don't
> have an RO unit yourself, you can either buy it from your new LFS, or
> I've seen relatively cheap "dispense it yourself" RO water at the local
> grocery store.

You have me seriously thinking of going to at least half RO water again.
I do have cheap UV/DI/RO treated water vending machines nearby. I was
actually running my 5 gallon version of this tank with half RO, but
acclimated the fish to tap water when I moved up to the 15 gallon tank.
My friend who will adopt Flower once he's bigger uses straight RO and
buffers with nothing but Tetra's blackwater extract and peat for his
discus. He said he just couldn't get our local water soft enough for
the fish to really color up nicely.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

Gill Passman

June 20th 05, 11:57 PM

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
. ..
> Gill Passman wrote:
> > "Elaine T" > wrote in message
> > om...
> >
> >>I'm in an odd situation. I have a heavily planted 15 gallon tank and
> >>had room for a couple more fish - I broke my canopy and had two jumpers
> >>before I got it fixed. It was my birthday and BF wanted to buy me fish
> >>so I asked for a few cardinals. He came home with a few cardinals AND a
> >>small discus! Ack! LFS told him a discus could live in a 15 gallon
> >>community tank - they have now completely lost my business.
> >>
> >>The discus is a generous gift, but will obviously outgrow the tank in
> >>time. I've already found "Flower" a home once he's grown enough to
> >>defend himself with larger discus.
> >>
> >>My questions are about care in a community. I've kept discus before but
> >>only in a dedicated tank with a mix of temperature tolerant and silk
> >>plants. This tank has a wide variety of plants and community fish -
> >>hungry rasboras, an SAE, a pygmy loach, otos, and now the cardinals. I
> >>considered it full without the discus. So...
> >>
> >>1) What temps will allow the plants and other fish to live and not kill
> >>the discus? I've got it at 80-81F now, from advice on discus and plants
> >>on George Booth's website. In the past I kept my discus at 85F, but
> >>that will melt my plants. Also, are PMDD and Excel compatible with
> >
> > discus?
> >
> >>2) How do I have enough food around for the discus to feed slowly
> >>without overfeeding the tank? So far he's not eaten much but that's not
> >>surprising.
> >>
> >>3) My fish already react badly to water changes - I think my tapwater
> >>has something in it that irritates the fish. I'm probably looking at
> >>twice weekly 30% water changes to keep the water quality good enough for
> >>Flower because of the stocking level of the tank. How do I manage this?
> >>
> >>4) I've kept discus in hard water before (with mixed success), but I'm
> >>not sure that the mix of lower temps and pH 7.6 is going to work. I've
> >>softened the water as best I can with coconut fiber and blackwater
> >>extract but the fish is still stressed. Are there better buffers out
> >
> > there?
> >
> >>Please don't tell me to buy another tank, find a home for the fish,
> >>yadda yadda. Flower is a gift and I would hurt my BF by not making the
> >>best of it for as long as he fits the tank.
> >>
> >>--
> >>Elaine T __
> >>http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> >>rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com
> >
> >
> > HAPPY BIRTHDAY :-)
> >
> > And you already know the answer.....enjoy Flower while you have her and
if
> > you can keep her....you never know by the time she outgrows the tank you
> > might have moved to somewhere you can have a bigger tank - lol
> >
> > If you can squeeze in a tank to suit her requirements do it for the sake
of
> > the other fish...if not reach a compromise for her and the other
fish....it
> > really will depend on the conditions she has been kept under before you
got
> > her....maybe LFS have the same conditions as you....if she is truly
stressed
> > maybe take BF and fish back and make a choice together....difficult I
know
> > for BF (just had the hubby routine on the fish maintenance and NG)...but
> > positioned right just might work...
> >
> > Good luck
> > Gill
> >
> >
> You're so right. That's why he's named Flower. BF had hoped he would
> last longer and be prettier than the flowers he would have bought
> otherwise. The name is a reminder that like flowers, he might be
> transient. Plus I just saw Bambi the other day. ;-) Of course, to me
> fish are not disposable so I'm doing the best I can to give Flower a
> good life. Heck - who knows what other confused person may have bought
> Flower anyway.
>
> I won't worry about Flower being stressed until it's lasted a full week.
> The cardinals that also went in Friday are just starting to explore
> today and discus are even slower to adapt to new surroundings. My tank
> is very different from LFS' discus tank. It's cooler, higher pH (I
> acclimated Flower for over 6 hours), has lots of other species of fish,
> and Flower is the only discus when he would prefer friends.
>
> --
> Elaine T __
> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

Plus, it so,so,so romantic, love it....- showing an interest in your hobby
with the fish (however misinformed0......and a special fish such as
Flowers - they buy you the real stuff then spend their time sneezing all the
time because of his (and mine to a lesser degree)hayfever.....

Never met a fish that has made anyone sneeze -lol

Got a birthday coming up soon - bet I don't get fish.....

But afterall "being a lady that does lunch" is a birthday present and a half
for anyone

Gill

Gill Passman

June 21st 05, 12:01 AM

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
.. .
> Rocco Moretti wrote:
> > Elaine T wrote:
> >
> >> 3) My fish already react badly to water changes - I think my tapwater
> >> has something in it that irritates the fish. I'm probably looking at
> >> twice weekly 30% water changes to keep the water quality good enough
> >> for Flower because of the stocking level of the tank. How do I manage
> >> this?
> >
> >
> > Try filtering the water change water through activated charcoal - if it
> > is an organic irritant, the charcoal should take (most of) it out. At
> > the last resort, you could always do w/c with RO water adjusted with
> > baking soda & other salts.
>
> How long would you suggest filtering? Overnight? Carbon would also
> remove chloramines, which would be nice.
>
> >> 4) I've kept discus in hard water before (with mixed success), but I'm
> >> not sure that the mix of lower temps and pH 7.6 is going to work.
> >> I've softened the water as best I can with coconut fiber and
> >> blackwater extract but the fish is still stressed. Are there better
> >> buffers out there?
> >
> >
> > You could always try partial RO water to soften the water. If you don't
> > have an RO unit yourself, you can either buy it from your new LFS, or
> > I've seen relatively cheap "dispense it yourself" RO water at the local
> > grocery store.
>
> You have me seriously thinking of going to at least half RO water again.
> I do have cheap UV/DI/RO treated water vending machines nearby. I was
> actually running my 5 gallon version of this tank with half RO, but
> acclimated the fish to tap water when I moved up to the 15 gallon tank.
> My friend who will adopt Flower once he's bigger uses straight RO and
> buffers with nothing but Tetra's blackwater extract and peat for his
> discus. He said he just couldn't get our local water soft enough for
> the fish to really color up nicely.
>
> --
> Elaine T __
> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

You would be entering un-chartered waters for your other fish....find out
first the conditions that the new fish has been kept under...and keep the
status quo

Elaine T

June 21st 05, 12:29 AM

Gill Passman wrote:
> "Elaine T" > wrote in message
> .. .
>
>>Rocco Moretti wrote:
>>
>>>Elaine T wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>3) My fish already react badly to water changes - I think my tapwater
>>>>has something in it that irritates the fish. I'm probably looking at
>>>>twice weekly 30% water changes to keep the water quality good enough
>>>>for Flower because of the stocking level of the tank. How do I manage
>>>>this?
>>>
>>>
>>>Try filtering the water change water through activated charcoal - if it
>>>is an organic irritant, the charcoal should take (most of) it out. At
>>>the last resort, you could always do w/c with RO water adjusted with
>>>baking soda & other salts.
>>
>>How long would you suggest filtering? Overnight? Carbon would also
>>remove chloramines, which would be nice.
>>
>>
>>>>4) I've kept discus in hard water before (with mixed success), but I'm
>>>>not sure that the mix of lower temps and pH 7.6 is going to work.
>>>>I've softened the water as best I can with coconut fiber and
>>>>blackwater extract but the fish is still stressed. Are there better
>>>>buffers out there?
>>>
>>>
>>>You could always try partial RO water to soften the water. If you don't
>>>have an RO unit yourself, you can either buy it from your new LFS, or
>>>I've seen relatively cheap "dispense it yourself" RO water at the local
>>>grocery store.
>>
>>You have me seriously thinking of going to at least half RO water again.
>> I do have cheap UV/DI/RO treated water vending machines nearby. I was
>>actually running my 5 gallon version of this tank with half RO, but
>>acclimated the fish to tap water when I moved up to the 15 gallon tank.
>> My friend who will adopt Flower once he's bigger uses straight RO and
>>buffers with nothing but Tetra's blackwater extract and peat for his
>>discus. He said he just couldn't get our local water soft enough for
>>the fish to really color up nicely.
>>
>>--
>>Elaine T __
>>http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
>>rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com
>
>
> You would be entering un-chartered waters for your other fish....find out
> first the conditions that the new fish has been kept under...and keep the
> status quo
>
Luckily, LFS found out what was in my tank, the pH, and the size before
selling BF the discus. All my fish (except a couple of guppies I have
already moved) prefer soft water so no worries about blackwater
conditions. BF called from the store and asked on the premise of
finding out what went OK with the cardinals. I had no idea what he was
up to... And you're right - It's very romantic! I just wish I had
managed to wipe the shocked expression off of my face faster. LOL!

As for maintaining status quo for the discus, I know he was at warmer
temps and lower pH than I want to try and I already had to acclimate him
to the tank. I would have killed everything else in the tank trying to
go hard->soft that fast. It does make sense to call LFS and get all the
details, though.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

Elaine T

June 21st 05, 06:18 AM

NetMax wrote:
> "Elaine T" > wrote in message
> om...
>
>>I'm in an odd situation. I have a heavily planted 15 gallon tank and
>>had room for a couple more fish - I broke my canopy and had two jumpers
>>before I got it fixed. It was my birthday and BF wanted to buy me fish
>>so I asked for a few cardinals. He came home with a few cardinals AND
>>a small discus! Ack! LFS told him a discus could live in a 15 gallon
>>community tank - they have now completely lost my business.
>
>
> A BF? So many hearts have now been shattered across the ng ;~).
>
You're too kind. *blush*
>
>>The discus is a generous gift, but will obviously outgrow the tank in
>>time. I've already found "Flower" a home once he's grown enough to
>>defend himself with larger discus.
>
> If Flower survives the transition, you will have a few months to figure
> how exactly how tall a hex tank would take the same surface area of that
> 15g ;~)
>
>>My questions are about care in a community. I've kept discus before
>>but only in a dedicated tank with a mix of temperature tolerant and
>>silk plants. This tank has a wide variety of plants and community
>>fish - hungry rasboras, an SAE, a pygmy loach, otos, and now the
>>cardinals. I considered it full without the discus. So...
>>
>>1) What temps will allow the plants and other fish to live and not kill
>>the discus? I've got it at 80-81F now, from advice on discus and
>>plants on George Booth's website. In the past I kept my discus at 85F,
>>but that will melt my plants. Also, are PMDD and Excel compatible with
>>discus?
>
>
> No problem on the 80-81F. People pamper Discus too much. They come
> from, cohabitate and compete with Angelfish, Plecos, Corys and a huge
> amount of tetras. They are actually very tough fish, typically
> transported (wild-caught) on their sides with just enough water to cover
> them. I think their reputation for fragility comes from a lower
> metabolism which makes them more suceptible to the higher concentration
> of pathogens which you would see in an aquarium. I've never heard of
> PMDD or Excel not being compatible with any fish, though I can imagine
> some PMDD could be hard on smaller fish. Quit dosing for a while (the
> extra fish will compensate with their own fertilizer).

Sheesh - we got awful looking Singapore discus at the store where I
worked. The transport stress and hormones half-killed them and our
discus guy labored over those fish to get them healthy enough to sell.
That's why I don't think of them as tough. As for plant food, I'll
remix my PMDD without the nitrates. That's what I love about doing my
own ferts!

>>2) How do I have enough food around for the discus to feed slowly
>>without overfeeding the tank? So far he's not eaten much but that's
>>not surprising.
>
> The issue is the transition from shy reclusive fish to gregarious pushy
> cichlid. Once this transition is completed, you will wonder why you
> worried ;~). Seriously though, spot feeding, hand feeding, feeding rings
> etc might need to be utilized for a while.
>
It's very encouraging to hear that discus can act like pushy cichlids.
I've only owned one that acted that way - it was a "Red Dragon" and I
got him only a bit smaller than Flower. He was very much like an angel,
and I think we even had an angelfish in the tank with him.

>>3) My fish already react badly to water changes - I think my tapwater
>>has something in it that irritates the fish. I'm probably looking at
>>twice weekly 30% water changes to keep the water quality good enough
>>for Flower because of the stocking level of the tank. How do I manage
>>this?
>
>
> Someone mentioned carbon. Excellent idea. There are many grades, buy
> the best you can find. Water treatment supply houses have the good
> stuff. It is not the soak time which is important as much as the flow
> rate. You want a nice slow flow rate through the carbon bed (throw a
> little peat in there too).
>
I'll use a box filter and airpump then. I have one around for when I
want to carbon filter for short periods of time.

>>4) I've kept discus in hard water before (with mixed success), but I'm
>>not sure that the mix of lower temps and pH 7.6 is going to work. I've
>>softened the water as best I can with coconut fiber and blackwater
>>extract but the fish is still stressed. Are there better buffers out
>>there?
>
> It's all relative. I've had Discus who positively looked like they were
> going to drop a litter of marbles at 7.7pH and others who looked
> oblivious. The answer is comparing the conditions he originated from.
> Personally, I've found that within a certain pH range, they are more
> interested in being in soft water, but this varies by origin as well.
> None of them mind soft hot acidic water, so this became the rule to keep
> them in, but you know about acclimation and origin of birth conditions
> affecting them more pronouncely.
>
That makes a lot of sense. Flower is still darker than I would like to
see. I've decided to gradually take the tank to half DI/RO and continue
to filter over coconut fiber (no phosphates). I've also got a big chunk
of mopani in there still leaching tannins, so that will help.

>>Please don't tell me to buy another tank, find a home for the fish,
>>yadda yadda. Flower is a gift and I would hurt my BF by not making the
>>best of it for as long as he fits the tank.
>
>
> How romantic *sheesh, why didn't I think of the Discus idea ;~) *. I
> don't think a stay in a 15g will neccesarily be bad (all those plants and
> cozy corners close together). The problem is the acclimation and the
> lack of quarantine, tsk tsk. If the fish survives a month (and I
> sincerely wish it does as I know you'll take it personally), let the BF
> buy the 42g hex tank, and lose the 15g.
>
> All this talk about not being able to ever get another tank is close to
> blasphemy anyways. I once installed a tank in a hallway closet and then
> cut a hole in the closet so the tank was facing into a room. My last
> install was a tank into a bookcase (who needs so many books with the
> internet ;~). Show me a space and I can design an aquarium into it.

ROFL. My quarantine tank is 2.5 gallons. I'm geared up for
quarantining guppies and tetras, not discus! As for acclimation, at
least it's soft to hard and not the other way around.

Speaking of blasphemy, my lease actually forbids fishtanks. I had two
parrots when I moved in so it wasn't a big deal. I did ask about a
small tank in the kitchen where the floor is tile. My landlady said
*small*, like 10 gallons, was OK. When I became seriously allergic to
the birds and had to find them new homes, I went back to fishkeeping. I
have a 15 tall with the 10x20" footprint camoflaged as a 10 gallon.
However, the next step up to 27 hex could really be a problem.

But...I've got a nearly empty 45 gallon outside where I was going to
start a pupfish colony. The tank was handed to me, and who can turn
down a free fishtank? I'm already thinking about insulating it well
enough to heat it efficiently over my very mild winter. Inch thick
styrofoam on the bottom, back and sides and a glass canopy should do the
trick. ;-)

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

NetMax

June 21st 05, 07:08 AM

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
. ..
> NetMax wrote:
>> "Elaine T" > wrote in message
>> om...
>>
<snip>
> Sheesh - we got awful looking Singapore discus at the store where I
> worked. The transport stress and hormones half-killed them and our
> discus guy labored over those fish to get them healthy enough to sell.
> That's why I don't think of them as tough. As for plant food, I'll
> remix my PMDD without the nitrates. That's what I love about doing my
> own ferts!

I don't want to diss my very good suppiers from Singapore, but there are
certain fish (ie: Discus & Angelfish) that I would never buy from there.
Thailand was turning into a fairly good supplier in regards to quality &
price point, though I was not 100% convinced that contrary to my
instructions, I didn't get the occasional hormone boosted fish. Japan
had a good Discus market I was about to investigate before I left the
trade, high quality and high price was where they were last time one of
my importers checked. China was also an up and coming player in Discus
which I was starting to investigate. I also tried to use the local
market but found that generally they were buying more from me than I
bought from them. Sometimes they would line up buyers and just middle
the fish from me to them. Discus are quite a .... business ;~).

A few other 'worlds' out there are the Arrowana market, the Koi market
and the fancy Goldfish market. Thousands of dollars changing hands for
these fish. It was quite intimidating to someone in the nickel & dime
retail end of the business.

<snip>
Incidentally, as you know, stressed Discus go dark. Watch his appetite
to gauge his health.

>> All this talk about not being able to ever get another tank is close
>> to blasphemy anyways. I once installed a tank in a hallway closet and
>> then cut a hole in the closet so the tank was facing into a room. My
>> last install was a tank into a bookcase (who needs so many books with
>> the internet ;~). Show me a space and I can design an aquarium into
>> it.
>
> ROFL. My quarantine tank is 2.5 gallons. I'm geared up for
> quarantining guppies and tetras, not discus! As for acclimation, at
> least it's soft to hard and not the other way around.
>
> Speaking of blasphemy, my lease actually forbids fishtanks. I had two
> parrots when I moved in so it wasn't a big deal. I did ask about a
> small tank in the kitchen where the floor is tile. My landlady said
> *small*, like 10 gallons, was OK. When I became seriously allergic to
> the birds and had to find them new homes, I went back to fishkeeping.
> I have a 15 tall with the 10x20" footprint camoflaged as a 10 gallon.
> However, the next step up to 27 hex could really be a problem.
>
> But...I've got a nearly empty 45 gallon outside where I was going to
> start a pupfish colony. The tank was handed to me, and who can turn
> down a free fishtank? I'm already thinking about insulating it well
> enough to heat it efficiently over my very mild winter. Inch thick
> styrofoam on the bottom, back and sides and a glass canopy should do
> the trick. ;-)

That's the spirit! .... and if your BF ever stops appreciating you, just
let him know there is someone in Ottawa who is as fish-crazy as you are,
but has lots of room for tanks ;~)
--
www.NetMax.tk

> --
> Elaine T __
> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com