More Algae Problems

[pixi]

My pond is full of algae. I have tried algaecides (or whatever it is
called}. In a pond about 12 x 14 feet and maybe 3 feet deep in the center
I have three waterlilies, 3 arrowheads, two bullrushes, two irises and about
20 anacharis plants. Also a few parrot feathers. Have a biological filter
and a skimmer. Also have a huge (about 12 " in diameter) ball of barley
straw. And still I have algae.

There are 12 goldfish which I rarely feed and the algae was there before
the fish. There are four frogs that I know of.

So what am I doing wrong. The pond does receive full sun all day (when it
isn't cloudy, that is).

Right now I am reluctant to run the waterfall which runs the filter and
skimmer because I have a very few baby fish and don't want to hurt them.
Most of my goldfish are at least five years old and for some reason there
was only one or two little fish that made it to an inedible size in my pond
down by the woods (where I never have algae). Anyway, I need to replenish
my goldfish supply before they start dying of old age.

Incidentally, the two little fantails were transferred from a 10 gallon tank
to the outside pond and are doing fine. No sign of fin rot.

Will appreciate your comments.

[~Roy~]

It takes light and nutrients to make most types of algae
grow..........remove any of the above and it will retard the growth.
Most times just adding more plants to utilize the excess nutrients is
sufficient. Adding more aeration also helps. .Your going to have to
run a filter if you expect to catch any dead algae. Lock up the
phosporous so the algae can not use it and most of the algae will die
off........Aluminum sulphate will do this quite effectively......I
personally would not worry about any algae unless its the string type,
as it is beneficial to a pond and the fish. Just my take on algae.


On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 08:56:27 -0400, "pixi" > wrote:

>===<>My pond is full of algae. I have tried algaecides (or whatever it is
>===<>called}. In a pond about 12 x 14 feet and maybe 3 feet deep in the center
>===<>I have three waterlilies, 3 arrowheads, two bullrushes, two irises and about
>===<>20 anacharis plants. Also a few parrot feathers. Have a biological filter
>===<>and a skimmer. Also have a huge (about 12 " in diameter) ball of barley
>===<>straw. And still I have algae.
>===<>
>===<>There are 12 goldfish which I rarely feed and the algae was there before
>===<>the fish. There are four frogs that I know of.
>===<>
>===<>So what am I doing wrong. The pond does receive full sun all day (when it
>===<>isn't cloudy, that is).
>===<>
>===<>Right now I am reluctant to run the waterfall which runs the filter and
>===<>skimmer because I have a very few baby fish and don't want to hurt them.
>===<>Most of my goldfish are at least five years old and for some reason there
>===<>was only one or two little fish that made it to an inedible size in my pond
>===<>down by the woods (where I never have algae). Anyway, I need to replenish
>===<>my goldfish supply before they start dying of old age.
>===<>
>===<>Incidentally, the two little fantails were transferred from a 10 gallon tank
>===<>to the outside pond and are doing fine. No sign of fin rot.
>===<>
>===<>Will appreciate your comments.
>===<>


==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!
"The original frugal ponder"
~~~~ }<((((o> ~~~~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~~~~~ }<(((((o>

[RichToyBox]

Pixi,

I would run the filter and waterfall. One of the cures that I have seen is
massive aeration. Another is filtration. The algae thrive on ammonia, in
fact make a pretty good biological filter. Add a little potash, 1
tablespoon per 1000 gallons to help the higher order plants compete with the
algae for the nutrients, and therefore starve the algae. The other
alternative is to get a good UV to kill the floating algae, and hope that it
is replaced by the good fuzzy sweater algae, rather than string algae.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html

"pixi" > wrote in message
...
> My pond is full of algae. I have tried algaecides (or whatever it is
> called}. In a pond about 12 x 14 feet and maybe 3 feet deep in the
> center
> I have three waterlilies, 3 arrowheads, two bullrushes, two irises and
> about
> 20 anacharis plants. Also a few parrot feathers. Have a biological
> filter
> and a skimmer. Also have a huge (about 12 " in diameter) ball of barley
> straw. And still I have algae.
>
> There are 12 goldfish which I rarely feed and the algae was there before
> the fish. There are four frogs that I know of.
>
> So what am I doing wrong. The pond does receive full sun all day (when
> it
> isn't cloudy, that is).
>
> Right now I am reluctant to run the waterfall which runs the filter and
> skimmer because I have a very few baby fish and don't want to hurt them.
> Most of my goldfish are at least five years old and for some reason there
> was only one or two little fish that made it to an inedible size in my
> pond
> down by the woods (where I never have algae). Anyway, I need to replenish
> my goldfish supply before they start dying of old age.
>
> Incidentally, the two little fantails were transferred from a 10 gallon
> tank
> to the outside pond and are doing fine. No sign of fin rot.
>
> Will appreciate your comments.
>
>

[Reel McKoi]

"pixi" > wrote in message
...
> Right now I am reluctant to run the waterfall which runs the filter and
> skimmer because I have a very few baby fish and don't want to hurt them.
==========================
I run my filters 24/7 - from spring until the water temps drop below 50F or
so. If you have some type of safety net over your pump intake the babies
should do ok. I have my pump in 2 plant baskets wired together like
clam-shells. The pump isn't near plants where baby fish hang out. Your
pond needs water circulation. I hope you at lest have a bubbler of some
type running so it doesn't get stagnant and kill all your fish.
--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
EVERYONE: "Please check people's headers for forgeries
before flushing." NAMES ARE BEING FORGED.
Do not feed the trolls.
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Koitoy]

Here is my suggestion. Stop putting chemicals in your pond, and get
your bio filtration stystem going. As previously suggested you can
modify your filter to protect your baby fish. Here is a link that
might make you think differently about what causes, and how to solve
the algea problem. I find this authors' observations to be true in my
experiences. Happy ponding.

http://tinyurl.com/bxq3c


--
Koitoy

[~ janj JJsPond.us]

>On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 08:56:27 -0400, "pixi" > wrote:

>My pond is full of algae. I have tried algaecides (or whatever it is
>called}.

Stop that.

>Right now I am reluctant to run the waterfall which runs the filter and
>skimmer because I have a very few baby fish and don't want to hurt them.

Start this.

If you're seeing a few, there is quite a few more you're not seeing, more
than you need to survive. ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

[Derek Broughton]

~ janj JJsPond.us wrote:

>>On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 08:56:27 -0400, "pixi" > wrote:
>
>>My pond is full of algae. I have tried algaecides (or whatever it is
>>called}.
>
> Stop that.
>
>>Right now I am reluctant to run the waterfall which runs the filter and
>>skimmer because I have a very few baby fish and don't want to hurt them.
>
> Start this.
>
> If you're seeing a few, there is quite a few more you're not seeing, more
> than you need to survive. ~ jan

Also, while I have seen and heard of fish getting caught in filters, it
happens surprisingly rarely. The ones, that I know of, all survived the
experience (thought it's fair to assume that the ones that didn't survive
left no evidence :-( )
--
derek

[Koitoy]

Here is my suggestion. Stop putting chemicals in your pond, and get
your bio filtration stystem going. As previously suggested you can
modify your filter to protect your baby fish. Here is a link that
might make you think differently about what causes, and how to solve
the algea problem. I find this authors' observations to be true in my
experiences. Happy ponding.

http://tinyurl.com/bxq3c


--
Koitoy

[~ janj JJsPond.us]

>Also, while I have seen and heard of fish getting caught in filters, it
>happens surprisingly rarely. The ones, that I know of, all survived the
>experience (thought it's fair to assume that the ones that didn't survive
>left no evidence :-( ) Derek

And I always wonder if there wasn't something wrong with those before they
hit the filter anyway, some weakness or other. ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

[Ridge Roofing, Inc.]

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 07:51:54 -0700, Courageous
> wrote:


>Once you have established good biofiltration again, and we, the group,
>have determined that your biofilter is big enough for your pond, you
>might consider a UV filter. Appropriately sized, this will stop green
>water dead in its tracks.
>
>A temporary solution, that you could do right now, would be to toss in
>a bunch of calcium bentonite clay, while your system is circulating.
>You should be able to find this at any koi supply place. Don't be afraid
>to use treble or quadruple what they recommmend. Expect muddy water for
>a day or so, nothing wrong, to be expected. Then everything should clear
>up, see all the way to the bottom type of stuff.
>
>C//

What does the bentonite clay do???

[Courageous]

>My pond is full of algae. I have tried algaecides (or whatever it is
>called}. In a pond about 12 x 14 feet and maybe 3 feet deep in the center
>I have three waterlilies, 3 arrowheads, two bullrushes, two irises and about
>20 anacharis plants. Also a few parrot feathers. Have a biological filter
>and a skimmer. Also have a huge (about 12 " in diameter) ball of barley
>straw. And still I have algae.

Sometimes, you're just gonna have algae. But let's talk about your biofilter
size. Your pond, assuming about a 1.5 foot average depth, is about 2,000 gallons.
Maybe your filter is weak?

>Right now I am reluctant to run the waterfall which runs the filter and
>skimmer because I have a very few baby fish and don't want to hurt them.

If you're not running the filter, you have a problem. A bio filter
really should be run 24/7. Futher, if a biofilter is stopped, it often
kills all the good bacteria that makes the filter work, requiring a
good week or two to get going again once restarted.

>Will appreciate your comments.

Once you have established good biofiltration again, and we, the group,
have determined that your biofilter is big enough for your pond, you
might consider a UV filter. Appropriately sized, this will stop green
water dead in its tracks.

A temporary solution, that you could do right now, would be to toss in
a bunch of calcium bentonite clay, while your system is circulating.
You should be able to find this at any koi supply place. Don't be afraid
to use treble or quadruple what they recommmend. Expect muddy water for
a day or so, nothing wrong, to be expected. Then everything should clear
up, see all the way to the bottom type of stuff.

C//

[Reel McKoi]

"Courageous" > wrote in message
...
> Calcium bentonite is similar to the ingredenients of kitty litter.
> It's both absorbant and charged. Suck. Zap. Everything dissolved in
> the water, now in the bentonite. As a bonus, it also releases trace
> minerals into the water, that the koi like. Google for it.
>
> C//
==========================
I used regular plan old kitty litter from Wally World and it worked. Now
this may be a coincidence, but everything cleared up but one pool of fry
that was greener than green. :-) I guess I'll just toss some more in that
one and see what happens.
--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
EVERYONE: "Please check people's headers for forgeries
before flushing." NAMES ARE BEING FORGED.
Do not feed the trolls.
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[~ janj JJsPond.us]

On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 07:45:35 -0700, Courageous >
wrote:

>>What does the bentonite clay do???
>
>Calcium bentonite is similar to the ingredenients of kitty litter.
>It's both absorbant and charged. Suck. Zap. Everything dissolved in
>the water, now in the bentonite. As a bonus, it also releases trace
>minerals into the water, that the koi like. Google for it.
>
>C//

There's been some more information regarding kitty litter as cheap koi
clay. Unfortunately kitty litter is usually sodium bentionite not the
calcium. I think Roy mentioned something about this a while back. ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

[Greg Cooper]

I had the same problem.
I took some ridged plastic tubing about 5/8" diameter that I had laying
around and cut 4 pieces to and hot glued them to form a rectangle the
same size as my skimmer opening. Then I hot glued some black plastic
fruit tree netting across. You can go finer with the mesh but then you
will have to clean more often. But it keeps the small fish out of the
skimmer.


pixi wrote:
> Right now I am reluctant to run the waterfall which runs the filter and
> skimmer because I have a very few baby fish and don't want to hurt them.

[Greg Cooper]

I have lost a small fish (1.5") in the skimmer before.
By the time I found him he seems to have died from exhaustion fighting
the flow. This was a fairly new fish at the time. I think the
experience fish know to stay away from the skimmer. I see them poking
around the edges everywhere else.

Derek Broughton wrote:

> ~ janj JJsPond.us wrote:
>

>>If you're seeing a few, there is quite a few more you're not seeing, more
>>than you need to survive. ~ jan
>
>
> Also, while I have seen and heard of fish getting caught in filters, it
> happens surprisingly rarely. The ones, that I know of, all survived the
> experience (thought it's fair to assume that the ones that didn't survive
> left no evidence :-( )

[pixi]

The kind of algae I have is large and fluffy. Not the string kind or the
fine floating stuff that turns the water green.

Been running the waterfall with filter and skimmer for two days now and most
of the surface algae is gone but there is still plenty down under. The
little fish seem to hang out in the algae and I hate to skim it out with a
net.

While I'm here might as well bring this up. When I bought my waterfall
equipment my pump was a waterfall pump with an outlet of about 1-1/4 inch.
The brilliant person who set up the pond said that pump would never do and
sold me a pump with about a two-inch outlet which screws into a two-inch
corrogated pipe that goes up to the waterfall.

The pond person said that the waterfall pump could not deliver enough water.
I have discovered that this "expert" really doesn't know much about setting
up a pond or doesn't care what kind of a job he does.

I would like to try my original pondmaster waterfall pump (that is supposed
to deliver more than 3000 gallons an hour) but can I get an adapter that
would allow my to connect it to the 2-inch pipe?

I have spent an awful lot of time trying redo the result of the "experts"
expertise, like building up low spots around the perimeter where the water
leaks out. I've got to figure out a way to lever up one side of the
waterfall rock so all the water doesn't flow to one side. I will just have
to leave the rocks lining the inside of the pond unless I can hire someone
to do it for me.

Regrettably I am getting too old for a lot of work I could once do with
ease.

Is there an adapter that will go from 1-1/4 inch to 2"inch?

Nuff said (or too much said) for now.

Thank you all so much. What would I do without you??

Pixi

[Courageous]

>>A temporary solution, that you could do right now, would be to toss in
>>a bunch of calcium bentonite clay, while your system is circulating.
>>You should be able to find this at any koi supply place. Don't be afraid
>>to use treble or quadruple what they recommmend. Expect muddy water for
>>a day or so, nothing wrong, to be expected. Then everything should clear
>>up, see all the way to the bottom type of stuff.

>What does the bentonite clay do???

Calcium bentonite is similar to the ingredenients of kitty litter.
It's both absorbant and charged. Suck. Zap. Everything dissolved in
the water, now in the bentonite. As a bonus, it also releases trace
minerals into the water, that the koi like. Google for it.

C//

[Reel Mckoi]

"pixi" > wrote in message
...
> The pond person said that the waterfall pump could not deliver enough
water.
> I have discovered that this "expert" really doesn't know much about
setting
> up a pond or doesn't care what kind of a job he does.
========================
You're going to discover that a lot of so called "experts" know little more
than the average Joe out there. And also consider that something that'll
work for one person will not work for another. We have to redo 3 sides of
my 2000 gallon pond this summer because they were made too steep! The guy
said it would help keep predators out of the pond. YEAH RIGHT! He didn't
mention that the pressure from the surrounding soil would eventually allow
the sides to "fall in." And that's what's happening. It should have been
dug more bowl shape to let the water pressure and weight keep that from
happening.
--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
EVERYONE: "Please check people's headers for forgeries
before flushing." NAMES ARE BEING FORGED.
Do not feed the trolls.
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Reel Mckoi]

"Courageous" > wrote in message
...
>
> >work for one person will not work for another. We have to redo 3 sides
of
> >my 2000 gallon pond this summer because they were made too steep! The
guy
> >said it would help keep predators out of the pond. YEAH RIGHT! He
didn't
> >mention that the pressure from the surrounding soil would eventually
allow
> >the sides to "fall in."
>
> Huh. Your pond is a liner pond, yes?

$$ Yes. A Tetra 60 mil liner.

> In this situation, these are choices:
>
> 1. Concrete the pond, over the liner, or:

$$ I think concrete BEHIND the liner may work better.

> 2. Create a masonry retaining wall for the pond
> under the liner, to prevent the caving in.

$$ We've considered that.

> With heavy blocks, ala Keystone, no mortar is necessary.

$$ The blocks would be costly for such a large pond. We're considering
making it bowl shape like it should have been done the first time. We have
to empty it, peel back the liner and start to remove some soil to "bowl"
shape it. The fish will stay in the 2000 gallon plastic pool we just
purchased last week.

> He was, at least, right about a bit of predator prevention.

$$ It didn't do a damn thing to prevent the herons, Kingfishers, snakes,
bullfrogs and snappers from entering the pond pre-netting days. The herons
would stand on the rock necklace and wait for a fish to swim by.... bye bye
fish! The rest of the predators just jumped right in and started feasting.
They couldn't care less how steep the sides were.
--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
EVERYONE: "Please check people's headers for forgeries
before flushing." NAMES ARE BEING FORGED.
Do not feed the trolls.
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Stephen Henning]

"Reel Mckoi" wrote:

> We have to redo 3 sides of
> my 2000 gallon pond this summer because they were made too steep! The guy
> said it would help keep predators out of the pond. YEAH RIGHT! He didn't
> mention that the pressure from the surrounding soil would eventually allow
> the sides to "fall in." And that's what's happening. It should have been
> dug more bowl shape to let the water pressure and weight keep that from
> happening.

Your "expert" was correct. You need to make the sides steep to prevent
predators from having a picnic in the pond. What he didn't do was build
up a vertical wall out of cement blocks at the periphery and then build
the steep slope out of something that wouldn't shift. Also, don't
forget shelves around the edge for marginal plants.

It sounds like you don't have very good drainage around your pond. That
is a big problem and needs to be addressed. Most ponds don't do well in
a bog area unless they have masonry retaining walls.
--
Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to
18,000 gallon (17'x 47'x 2-4') lily pond garden in Zone 6
Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA

[Derek Broughton]

Stephen Henning wrote:

> "Reel Mckoi" wrote:
>
>> We have to redo 3 sides of
>> my 2000 gallon pond this summer because they were made too steep! The
>> guy
>> said it would help keep predators out of the pond. YEAH RIGHT! He
>> didn't mention that the pressure from the surrounding soil would
>> eventually allow
>> the sides to "fall in." And that's what's happening. It should have
>> been dug more bowl shape to let the water pressure and weight keep that
>> from happening.
>
> Your "expert" was correct. You need to make the sides steep to prevent
> predators from having a picnic in the pond. What he didn't do was build
> up a vertical wall out of cement blocks at the periphery and then build
> the steep slope out of something that wouldn't shift. Also, don't
> forget shelves around the edge for marginal plants.

A lot of people don't like those. There won't be any on my next pond.
>
> It sounds like you don't have very good drainage around your pond. That
> is a big problem and needs to be addressed. Most ponds don't do well in
> a bog area unless they have masonry retaining walls.

Yes. It's not pressure from the surrounding _soil_ that will cause
slumping. I built a pond in sandy soil, very well drained, with almost
vertical sides down to 5 feet. No problem with collapsing. The pressure
from the water will easily hold that in place. If you've got water on both
sides, though, there's no pressure differential.
--
derek

[Courageous]

>I would like to try my original pondmaster waterfall pump (that is supposed
>to deliver more than 3000 gallons an hour) but can I get an adapter that
>would allow my to connect it to the 2-inch pipe?

Yes. It's called a "reducer". Go to home depot plumbing section.

>Is there an adapter that will go from 1-1/4 inch to 2"inch?

Yes:

Item# 26020 at http://www.usplastic.com

Click: Pipe & Fittings -> PVC Pipe & Fittings -> PVC Fittings ->
PVC Reducing Fittings.

C//

[Reel Mckoi]

"Stephen Henning" > wrote in message
...
> "Reel Mckoi" wrote:
>
> > We have to redo 3 sides of
> > my 2000 gallon pond this summer because they were made too steep! The
guy
> > said it would help keep predators out of the pond. YEAH RIGHT! He
didn't
> > mention that the pressure from the surrounding soil would eventually
allow
> > the sides to "fall in." And that's what's happening. It should have
been
> > dug more bowl shape to let the water pressure and weight keep that from
> > happening.
===========
> Your "expert" was correct. You need to make the sides steep to prevent
> predators from having a picnic in the pond.

## The steep walls did not keep out the predators in our area. We live in a
rural area near a huge lake surrounded by Gov. land. It abounds with all
kinds of wildlife. We were losing fish faster than we could replace them.
Steep walls do nothing but keep out cranes and coons. Cranes aren't a large
problem in home ponds where I live and the dogs discouraged any coons from
coming near the house.

What he didn't do was build
> up a vertical wall out of cement blocks at the periphery and then build
> the steep slope out of something that wouldn't shift. Also, don't
> forget shelves around the edge for marginal plants.

## Yes, he left shelves around 3 sides.

> It sounds like you don't have very good drainage around your pond. That
> is a big problem and needs to be addressed.

## Actually the drainage is excellent as the pond is on a gentle slope and
rain runs off. The soil here, a fine red clay, gets like mustard when it's
wet. The smaller pond is now bowl shape and so far so good.

Most ponds don't do well in
> a bog area unless they have masonry retaining walls.

## I WISH I had a bog area! :-)
--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
EVERYONE: "Please check people's headers for forgeries
before flushing." NAMES ARE BEING FORGED.
Do not feed the trolls.
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Reel Mckoi]

"Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
...
> Stephen Henning wrote:
>
> > "Reel Mckoi" wrote:
> >
> >> We have to redo 3 sides of
> >> my 2000 gallon pond this summer because they were made too steep! The
> >> guy
> >> said it would help keep predators out of the pond. YEAH RIGHT! He
> >> didn't mention that the pressure from the surrounding soil would
> >> eventually allow
> >> the sides to "fall in." And that's what's happening. It should have
> >> been dug more bowl shape to let the water pressure and weight keep that
> >> from happening.
> >
> > Your "expert" was correct. You need to make the sides steep to prevent
> > predators from having a picnic in the pond. What he didn't do was build
> > up a vertical wall out of cement blocks at the periphery and then build
> > the steep slope out of something that wouldn't shift. Also, don't
> > forget shelves around the edge for marginal plants.
>
> A lot of people don't like those. There won't be any on my next pond.

## Will you set your plants on something or eliminate them altogether?

> > It sounds like you don't have very good drainage around your pond. That
> > is a big problem and needs to be addressed. Most ponds don't do well in
> > a bog area unless they have masonry retaining walls.

> Yes. It's not pressure from the surrounding _soil_ that will cause
> slumping. I built a pond in sandy soil, very well drained, with almost
> vertical sides down to 5 feet. No problem with collapsing. The pressure
> from the water will easily hold that in place. If you've got water on
both
> sides, though, there's no pressure differential.

## My ponds are not in a bog area and the surrounding soil is not water
logged. They're on a gentle slope. All water runs down the slope, through
a sluice pipe and to the nearby lake. What could be causing the sides to
belly in?
> --
> derek
--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
EVERYONE: "Please check people's headers for forgeries
before flushing." NAMES ARE BEING FORGED.
Do not feed the trolls.
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Reel Mckoi]

"Courageous" > wrote in message
...
>
> >$$ I think concrete BEHIND the liner may work better.
>
> Why?
>
> C//
========================
I don't want to be scooping up chips and chunks of concrete when the soil
shifts and the uneven pressure cracks it. I can't see using rebar or
chicken wire OVER the liner to help stabilize the concrete. Also, the
alkalinity problems caused by concrete. My water is 7.2 out of the tap and
goes higher after about 12 hours. The "bowl" shape is working well with the
smaller pond. There's nothing behind it's sloping walls to stabilize it.
--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
EVERYONE: "Please check people's headers for forgeries
before flushing." NAMES ARE BEING FORGED.
Do not feed the trolls.
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Reel Mckoi]

"Courageous" > wrote in message
...
>
> >I don't want to be scooping up chips and chunks of concrete when the soil
> >shifts and the uneven pressure cracks it. I can't see using rebar or
> >chicken wire OVER the liner to help stabilize the concrete.
>
> You can use the wire. Check http://www.wetwebmedia.com. Bob Fenner, who
> runs the place, operated a pond business for years here using just this
> technique.

## I'll check this site out - thanks! :-)

> Still, I don't see any real problem with putting the liner over the
concrete
> if you're so inclined. You might ask Bob what he thinks of that; he
> answers questions very quickly.
>
> >Also, the alkalinity problems caused by concrete
>
> You use a plastic cement; even then you have to cure the pond. Often
> one runs vinegar through it for a while.

## Run vinegar through it? Wouldn't that be impractical in a 2000 gallon
pond? I know my husband wants it fixed where the "fix" is permanent. It's
too expensive to fill and rinse a few times should concrete be on the
inside. Also, concrete would take up space and leave the gallonage less
than 2000. We can rinse it and use the shop vac to remove the rinse water
but refilling it a few times is out (to flush away the alk' from the
concrete). We haven't discussed just what action we're going to take. I
dread this undertaking.... :-(

> C//
--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
EVERYONE: "Please check people's headers for forgeries
before flushing." NAMES ARE BEING FORGED.
Do not feed the trolls.
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Stephen Henning]

Derek Broughton > wrote:

> If you've got water on both
> sides, though, there's no pressure differential.

You would think so, but if you take a shovel full and throw it in the
pond, it will sink to the bottom, so it is heavier, but heavier. Sandy
or muddy soil will always slump since it is heavier than water.
--
Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to
18,000 gallon (17'x 47'x 2-4') lily pond garden in Zone 6
Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA

[Stephen Henning]

"Reel Mckoi" wrote:

> ## The steep walls did not keep out the predators in our area. We live in a
> rural area near a huge lake surrounded by Gov. land. It abounds with all
> kinds of wildlife. We were losing fish faster than we could replace them.
> Steep walls do nothing but keep out cranes and coons. Cranes aren't a large
> problem in home ponds where I live and the dogs discouraged any coons from
> coming near the house.
>
> What he didn't do was build
> > up a vertical wall out of cement blocks at the periphery and then build
> > the steep slope out of something that wouldn't shift. Also, don't
> > forget shelves around the edge for marginal plants.
>
> ## Yes, he left shelves around 3 sides.

The other thing that protects your fish from varmits is plants around
the periphery. It gives the fish places to hide.
--
Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to
18,000 gallon (17'x 47'x 2-4') lily pond garden in Zone 6
Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA

[Reel Mckoi]

"Stephen Henning" > wrote in message
...
> "Reel Mckoi" wrote:
> > ## Yes, he left shelves around 3 sides.
>
> The other thing that protects your fish from varmits is plants around
> the periphery. It gives the fish places to hide.
============================
That didn't work for us either. Both ponds had and mostly still have mixed
plants around 3 sides plus water lilies. We still lost fish and it was
getting expensive not to mention heart breaking - especially when your
favorite hand tame koi is found half eaten one morning. We also had things
for them to hide in and under in the water. Large pipes etc. They still
vanished. We used snake repellent sulfur around the ponds - a waste of
money, the fish still went missing whole or were found in pieces. We saw
large black snakes crawl right over the repellent. We used the fishing
line, criss crossed everywhere. No dice... frogs and snakes went right
through it and herons learned to hop over and around it and sit on the plant
pots to fish. All it did was slow them down a little. We used fake owls
and snakes. The fish still disappeared. I tried leaving a radio on 24/7
out there .... that was a waste of time. Finally the day my beautiful
yellow transparent butterfly koi, my favorite koi, vanished - my husband got
in the car and went to ACE Hardware for nets. We haven't lost a fish to
preditors since. That was about 5 years ago.
--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
EVERYONE: "Please check people's headers for forgeries
before flushing." NAMES ARE BEING FORGED.
Do not feed the trolls.
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Reel Mckoi]

"Courageous" > wrote in message
...
>
> >> >I don't want to be scooping up chips and chunks of concrete when the
soil
>
> >## Run vinegar through it? Wouldn't that be impractical in a 2000
gallon
> >pond?

> No, but you don't use 100% vinegar. The point is to get the PH of the
water
> down to as low as you can get it. You can also cure the outside of the
concrete
> with muriatic acid.

** From the bad experiences I've seen and heard about with concrete ponds
I'm totally discouraged. Besides then we have another huge expense of
hiring professions to mix the concrete and somehow get it to stick to the
rubber liner. Neither myself or my husband have ever worked with concrete.
Eventually it will crack and bits will start to disintegrate under the
water. Water will get behind/between the concrete and liner since sealing
concrete 100% waterproof is almost impossible. I would have to see one done
this way a few years (where it freezes in winter) before, to give me some
confidence in putting concrete over rubber. It freezes here in winter and
that's when people start talking about problems with concrete ponds. The
rubber will give - the concrete will not, so it cracks.

> > I know my husband wants it fixed where the "fix" is permanent. It's
> >too expensive to fill and rinse a few times should concrete be on the
> >inside.

> Eh?

** To get rid of the alkalinity from the concrete.

> > Also, concrete would take up space and leave the gallonage less
> >than 2000.

> You can dig more.

** That's true but the liner wont *GROW* to fit a bigger hole unless the
concrete was on the OUTSIDE. Remember now, I'm retired and my husband is
semi-retired so our funds are not unlimited anymore. We would have to hire
someone to do this concrete work and quite honestly I don't think we could
afford it.

--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
EVERYONE: "Please check people's headers for forgeries
before flushing." NAMES ARE BEING FORGED.
Do not feed the trolls.
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Courageous]

>work for one person will not work for another. We have to redo 3 sides of
>my 2000 gallon pond this summer because they were made too steep! The guy
>said it would help keep predators out of the pond. YEAH RIGHT! He didn't
>mention that the pressure from the surrounding soil would eventually allow
>the sides to "fall in."

Huh. Your pond is a liner pond, yes?

In this situation, these are choices:

1. Concrete the pond, over the liner, or:

2. Create a masonry retaining wall for the pond
under the liner, to prevent the caving in.
With heavy blocks, ala Keystone, no mortar is necessary.

He was, at least, right about a bit of predator prevention.

C//

[Reel Mckoi]

"Courageous" > wrote in message
...
>
> >** From the bad experiences I've seen and heard about with concrete
ponds
> >I'm totally discouraged. Besides then we have another huge expense of
> >hiring professions to mix the concrete and somehow get it to stick to the
> >rubber liner. Neither myself or my husband have ever worked with
concrete.
>
> You don't have to have, but you'll have to read up on it. If you went the
> underlayment-under-the-cement route, you won't have to do a single pour.
> You can hand pack

## Hand pack? Putting a thick layer of concrete on the large 4 walls of
this pond would be more than two people our age can handle I believe. The
concrete would have to be several inches thick or more to resist the
pressure of the earth, and reinforced with rebar and chickenwire. Just
mixing the concrete is a job in itself, and the mixture and texture have to
be just right. I remember years ago when my father did his driveway. He
finally went and rented a mixer..... he did everything right BTW and in a
few years there were cracks and bits coming loose.

> >Eventually it will crack and bits will start to disintegrate under the
> >water. Water will get behind/between the concrete and liner since
sealing
> >concrete 100% waterproof is almost impossible. I would have to see one
done
> >this way a few years (where it freezes in winter) before, to give me some
> >confidence in putting concrete over rubber.

> A good reason for worry. Here in San Diego -- no freezing.

## Here in TN we get some deep freezes in winter and that causes problems
with concrete.

> >** To get rid of the alkalinity from the concrete.

> No I meant the expense. But I see you're on a fairly strict budget.
> Okee dokey.

## Yes, unfortunately we are, and I just found out I'm going to lose my
low-cost Tenncare health insurance. I also need several caps at $900 each
and have no dental insurance so can't really afford to spend much on a
hobby.

> >** That's true but the liner wont *GROW* to fit a bigger hole unless the
> >concrete was on the OUTSIDE. Remember now, I'm retired and my husband is
> >semi-retired so our funds are not unlimited anymore. We would have to
hire
> >someone to do this concrete work and quite honestly I don't think we
could
> >afford it.

> No, I'm doing a big pond, and I won't afford that either. For one thing,
> you should never hire a concrete guy for this stuff, but rather a pond
> guy, and they often charge about treble for the same job. Artisans --
> they always want more. Go figger. :)

## This is so true. The pond places here are such rip-offs even the wealthy
people we know avoid them. I don't know how they stay in business. Most
people we know, including the financially comfortable, dig and line their
own ponds. And most of these ponds are bowl shape and not collapsing like
our pond is. I think we'll probably go with a bowl shape and hope for the
best. We'll add soil to the bottom and flare out the sides bowl-like.
It'll be a little shallower but wider at the top and the gallonage will
remain the same. That should work. We can do that ourselves and be finished
in a few days, maybe a week. It wont cost us an arm and a leg either. :-)

> Anyway, how about "plan B".
>
> Consider the cheapest pre form blocks around: cinder block.

## That would make digging a larger hole necessary and the blocks are about
$1.29 each here. Keep in mind that the rocky soil here in TN in summer when
it's DRY is like a concrete sidewalk to dig. You have to use pick axes and
a maddox and the pond hole is so deep you have to raise the soil out with a
bucket, a bucked at a time by hand. The temperature is in the 90s as is the
humidity and this pond is in the full sun. My husband and I are both 60
years old....... do you see why we so dread redoing this pond?

> Stair step them, and fill the holes with earth for weight.
> Put the liner over the stairs.
> Put big rocks on the stairs above the liner, padding between the rocks
> and the liner to prevent punctures.
>
> Go check your local land scape supply / rock yard (not home depot, they
> overcharge for stuff like this by as much as 100%) for prices on the
> cinderblock. Might be less than you think $$.

## I don't know of any "landscape supply" places here. We have places that
sell landscape plants, shrubs, trees and yard, patio and garden goodies that
charge *much more* than any of the other places selling such things. Lowe's
has blocks for around $1.30 each. But then we're back to hiring someone to
dig the hole larger, remove the soil and set the blocks. I can't even lift
them anymore. I'd be in the ER with my back out.... :-(

> Another alternative would be to get a truck and hand collect stones
> of a size that you and your husband can handle, possibly with the
> assistance of some day labor -- if your region has such stuff in
> legally collectible areas of course.

## All we have here is native limstone which is free for the taking. I use
it for everything everywhere.

See my ponds here.
http://tinyurl.com/crtso
It's a quick webpage I just tossed together the other night. I have a much
better, larger page planned. :-)

--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
EVERYONE: "Please check people's headers for forgeries
before flushing." NAMES ARE BEING FORGED.
Do not feed the trolls.
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[pixi]

Probably I shouldn;t have done it and may be very sorry, but----

This morning I went out and bought six water hyacinth. They will add some
shade and reduce the oxygen and maybe, just maybe, I will be free of all
that algae.

I spent about 4 hours yesterday trying to fish it out (the algae, that is)
and had the waterfall running 24/7 and still the algae built up although it
is gone by morning. The new stuff that is.

The older stuff just stays.

I won't let it get out of hand, I hope. Can remove the surplus, I hope, and
it has been known to get to 25 below zero here so I'm sure the winter will
take care of them

And would someone please tell me exactly what sweater algae is and looks
like?

Thanks for all your help.

[Wilmdale]

Courageous wrote:

>>Probably I shouldn;t have done it and may be very sorry, but----
>>This morning I went out and bought six water hyacinth. They will add some
>>shade and reduce the oxygen and maybe, just maybe, I will be free of all
>>that algae.
>>
>>
>
>During the day, the water hyacinth will add, not reduce, oxygen to your
>pond. At night, they may use it up, particularly if your pond is over
>populated with it. One way to ameliorate this would be to make sure that
>the water is properly circulated at night. Bottom to top, destratified
>somehow, perhaps run through a waterfall if that's not too noisy.
>
>If your pond is small, you won't have a problem with the WH, as long as
>you cull them once in when. Actually, this is good, because the WH will
>concentrate wastes in a form you can easily access. Toss it in your
>compost heap.
>
>If your pond is a large natural one, you may be very, very sorry.
>
>Here's what can happen:
>
>http://tncweeds.ucdavis.edu/photos/eiccr04.jpg
>
>C//
>
>
Let's see, $10.00 - $15.00 per bunch of 17 plants, (plus S&H of course),
aannnnd looks like there are about, oh, I dunno, let me guess, 46,080
plants, divided by say 17 gives us 2711 "bunches" of WH at on the
average of, say, $13.00 per bunch, will gross you about $35,243.00 IF
you can sell them all to us living in zones 1 through 6 cause all ours
get killed off by the in the winter usually by the end of October or mid
November. Yep, every year we buy more. :-) .
Anyway, just food for thought... :-P .
Seriously, though, I know that it is even illegal to ship WH to some
states because that very thing happens. I our ponds though, I would
LOVE to be able to compost because they were doing so well! The few I
purchased this year are multiplying but I noticed yesterday they are
starting to get a bit yellowish in color. Maybe due to the hail we have
been getting.

W. Dale

[kathy]

Water hyacinth are good, easy to get out of the
pond for me (compared to water lettuce - but I've
got that too).
Winter will kill them but you really don't want them
in there by winter. A bunch of dead water hyacinth
will fuel a big algae bloom next spring so get them out
before the first frost, or shortly thereafter.

Sweater algae, or substrate algae, grows on surfaces
like rocks, plant baskets, liners. It gets an inch or two
long, is a nice green color and considered good for the
pond since it provides food and shelter for pond critters.

It also helps keep single cell suspended algae (green
pea soup colored water) and the long and tangling string
algae at bay.

kathy :-)
www.blogfromthebog.com
this week ~ Mosquitoes!
Run For Your Life!

Pond 101 page for new pond keepers ~
http://hometown.aol.com/ka30p/myhomepage/garden.html

[~Roy~]

If I could get the prices they get for a few strands of parrots
feather I would have been a multi millionaire by now, inless than a
year. I have hauled literally quite a few 4 x 6 foot utility trailers
of it that were heaped high as they could be. One weekend alone I
pulled and hauled 18 trailer loads of it.....I do have it under
control now, and iot sort of restricted to a small area of approx 12 x
20 feet, but I still have an ocasional PF pull when I runout of things
to do........And this all started from 4 strands the wife bought off
the internet, from a well known Aquatic Plant source which had a big
notice on their website staing that they will not ship any plants to
any states that they are prohibited in., The parrots feather they had
listed wa earmarked as not for sale in Alabama, but it got sent out
and the wife put it in the pond...............and as it grew she would
cut some off and plant it else where and finally we had a forest of
PF.....For some reason or other, my wife is very attracted to noxious
invasive plants for somne reason or other.......she is bad about it.
Cat tails, taro, frog bit, duckweed, fairy moss, WH, horse tails,
water clover..been there done that not fun.

On Sat, 25 Jun 2005 10:21:57 -0600, Wilmdale
> wrote:

>===<>Courageous wrote:
>===<>
>===<>>>Probably I shouldn;t have done it and may be very sorry, but----
>===<>>>This morning I went out and bought six water hyacinth. They will add some
>===<>>>shade and reduce the oxygen and maybe, just maybe, I will be free of all
>===<>>>that algae.
>===<>>>
>===<>>>
>===<>>
>===<>>During the day, the water hyacinth will add, not reduce, oxygen to your
>===<>>pond. At night, they may use it up, particularly if your pond is over
>===<>>populated with it. One way to ameliorate this would be to make sure that
>===<>>the water is properly circulated at night. Bottom to top, destratified
>===<>>somehow, perhaps run through a waterfall if that's not too noisy.
>===<>>
>===<>>If your pond is small, you won't have a problem with the WH, as long as
>===<>>you cull them once in when. Actually, this is good, because the WH will
>===<>>concentrate wastes in a form you can easily access. Toss it in your
>===<>>compost heap.
>===<>>
>===<>>If your pond is a large natural one, you may be very, very sorry.
>===<>>
>===<>>Here's what can happen:
>===<>>
>===<>>http://tncweeds.ucdavis.edu/photos/eiccr04.jpg
>===<>>
>===<>>C//
>===<>>
>===<>>
>===<>Let's see, $10.00 - $15.00 per bunch of 17 plants, (plus S&H of course),
>===<>aannnnd looks like there are about, oh, I dunno, let me guess, 46,080
>===<>plants, divided by say 17 gives us 2711 "bunches" of WH at on the
>===<>average of, say, $13.00 per bunch, will gross you about $35,243.00 IF
>===<>you can sell them all to us living in zones 1 through 6 cause all ours
>===<>get killed off by the in the winter usually by the end of October or mid
>===<>November. Yep, every year we buy more. :-) .
>===<>Anyway, just food for thought... :-P .
>===<>Seriously, though, I know that it is even illegal to ship WH to some
>===<>states because that very thing happens. I our ponds though, I would
>===<>LOVE to be able to compost because they were doing so well! The few I
>===<>purchased this year are multiplying but I noticed yesterday they are
>===<>starting to get a bit yellowish in color. Maybe due to the hail we have
>===<>been getting.
>===<>
>===<>W. Dale


==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!
"The original frugal ponder"
~~~~ }<((((o> ~~~~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~~~~~ }<(((((o>

[Reel Mckoi]

"Courageous" > wrote in message
...
>
> >## I don't know of any "landscape supply" places here.
>
> Check your phone book. These are the "rock yard" style places that
> have big ten foot wide bins of stuff. Usually contractors go there,
> but all these places are open to the public.

$$ Oh yes, we have those here. All the places that cater to the ponders
also sell rocks and stone from similar bins.

> Don't know what to tell you on the labor. I can't think of any
> permanent solutions that don't involve some hefty lifting, and
> probably digging.

$$ My husband and I discussed it over lunch. We'll do the bowl shape and
hope that works. That alone will entail a lot of digging and earth moving.
If that fails, then we'll have to call someone in and see what it will cost
to have it done. I'm sure I can get a good recommendation from someone at
the local Pond Club or the place I sell my most of my fish.
--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
EVERYONE: "Please check people's headers for forgeries
before flushing." NAMES ARE BEING FORGED.
My Pond Page http://tinyurl.com/crtso
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Reel Mckoi]

"pixi" > wrote in message
...
> I won't let it get out of hand, I hope. Can remove the surplus, I hope,
and
> it has been known to get to 25 below zero here so I'm sure the winter will
> take care of them

## The first good frost will do in both water hyacinth and water lettuce.

> And would someone please tell me exactly what sweater algae is and looks
> like?

## It looks like a green sweater on things. It doesn't grow long and hairy
or jumble into a green ball

--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
EVERYONE: "Please check people's headers for forgeries
before flushing." NAMES ARE BEING FORGED.
My Pond Page http://tinyurl.com/crtso
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Reel Mckoi]

"Wilmdale" > wrote in message
...
The few I purchased this year are multiplying but I noticed yesterday they
are starting to get a bit yellowish in color. Maybe due to the hail we have
been getting.

W. Dale
---------------
They've probably used up most of the nutrients in the water.
--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
EVERYONE: "Please check people's headers for forgeries
before flushing." NAMES ARE BEING FORGED.
My Pond Page http://tinyurl.com/crtso
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Stephen Henning]

> "Wilmdale" > wrote:
> The few I purchased this year are multiplying but I noticed yesterday they
> are starting to get a bit yellowish in color. Maybe due to the hail we have
> been getting.

Reel Mckoi" wrote:
> They've probably used up most of the nutrients in the water.

I doubt that. Hale means low temperatures and water hyacinths don't
like cold one bit. I kept mine alive in a greenhouse all winter and
they were yellow all winter until it got stinking hot in the greenhouse.
When it got warm they greened up nicely.
--
Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to
18,000 gallon (17'x 47'x 2-4') lily pond garden in Zone 6
Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA

[Courageous]

>$$ I think concrete BEHIND the liner may work better.

Why?

C//

[Courageous]

>I don't want to be scooping up chips and chunks of concrete when the soil
>shifts and the uneven pressure cracks it. I can't see using rebar or
>chicken wire OVER the liner to help stabilize the concrete.

You can use the wire. Check http://www.wetwebmedia.com. Bob Fenner, who
runs the place, operated a pond business for years here using just this
technique.

Still, I don't see any real problem with putting the liner over the concrete
if you're so inclined. You might ask Bob what he thinks of that; he
answers questions very quickly.

>Also, the alkalinity problems caused by concrete

You use a plastic cement; even then you have to cure the pond. Often
one runs vinegar through it for a while.

C//

[Courageous]

>> >I don't want to be scooping up chips and chunks of concrete when the soil

>## Run vinegar through it? Wouldn't that be impractical in a 2000 gallon
>pond?

No, but you don't use 100% vinegar. The point is to get the PH of the water
down to as low as you can get it. You can also cure the outside of the concrete
with muriatic acid.

> I know my husband wants it fixed where the "fix" is permanent. It's
>too expensive to fill and rinse a few times should concrete be on the
>inside.

Eh?

> Also, concrete would take up space and leave the gallonage less
>than 2000.

You can dig more.

C//

[~ janj JJsPond.us]

>http://tncweeds.ucdavis.edu/photos/eiccr04.jpg
>
>C//

Oh My Goodness!

For those of you who went looking thru the Toscano website, you might
remember this statue: http://tinyurl.com/az8fy When I saw it, I could
easily imagine that elephant traveling thru a pond full of duckweed, or in
this case a pond such as the website at the top. ;-) ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

[Reel Mckoi]

"Stephen Henning" > wrote in message
...
> > "Wilmdale" > wrote:
> > The few I purchased this year are multiplying but I noticed yesterday
they
> > are starting to get a bit yellowish in color. Maybe due to the hail we
have
> > been getting.
>
> Reel Mckoi" wrote:
> > They've probably used up most of the nutrients in the water.
>
> I doubt that. Hale means low temperatures and water hyacinths don't
> like cold one bit. I kept mine alive in a greenhouse all winter and
> they were yellow all winter until it got stinking hot in the greenhouse.
> When it got warm they greened up nicely.
============================
OK, mine start to yellow when they run out of nutrients. A heaping Tbs.
Potash per 1000 gallons always greens them up nicely. We get hail here but
it doesn't yellow them, just tears up the leaves. They do best in water
with 10-10-10 fertilizer but then the water greens up as well. I don't use
10-10-10 in my ponds but do in the propagation tanks.
--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
EVERYONE: "Please check people's headers for forgeries
before flushing." NAMES ARE BEING FORGED.
My Pond Page http://tinyurl.com/crtso
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Reel Mckoi]

"Courageous" > wrote in message
...
>
> >OK, mine start to yellow when they run out of nutrients. A heaping Tbs.
> >Potash per 1000 gallons always greens them up nicely.
>
> Good advice, I think. Another alternative would be any nitrate free
> phosphate free "pond fertilizer". Probably more expensive, though.
> /which/ potash, by the way?
==================
Muriate of Potash. I also use Ironite in the plants potting soil and I'm
sure some of that leaks out into the water. I also toss a few handfuls of
Ironite into the propagation tanks. It's granular.
--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
EVERYONE: "Please check people's headers for forgeries
before flushing." NAMES ARE BEING FORGED.
My Pond Page http://tinyurl.com/crtso
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Courageous]

>** From the bad experiences I've seen and heard about with concrete ponds
>I'm totally discouraged. Besides then we have another huge expense of
>hiring professions to mix the concrete and somehow get it to stick to the
>rubber liner. Neither myself or my husband have ever worked with concrete.

You don't have to have, but you'll have to read up on it. If you went the
underlayment-under-the-cement route, you won't have to do a single pour.
You can hand pack

>Eventually it will crack and bits will start to disintegrate under the
>water. Water will get behind/between the concrete and liner since sealing
>concrete 100% waterproof is almost impossible. I would have to see one done
>this way a few years (where it freezes in winter) before, to give me some
>confidence in putting concrete over rubber.

A good reason for worry. Here in San Diego -- no freezing.

>** To get rid of the alkalinity from the concrete.

No I meant the expense. But I see you're on a fairly strict budget.
Okee dokey.

>** That's true but the liner wont *GROW* to fit a bigger hole unless the
>concrete was on the OUTSIDE. Remember now, I'm retired and my husband is
>semi-retired so our funds are not unlimited anymore. We would have to hire
>someone to do this concrete work and quite honestly I don't think we could
>afford it.

No, I'm doing a big pond, and I won't afford that either. For one thing,
you should never hire a concrete guy for this stuff, but rather a pond
guy, and they often charge about treble for the same job. Artisans --
they always want more. Go figger. :)

Anyway, how about "plan B".

Consider the cheapest pre form blocks around: cinder block.

Stair step them, and fill the holes with earth for weight.

Put the liner over the stairs.

Put big rocks on the stairs above the liner, padding between the rocks
and the liner to prevent punctures.

Go check your local land scape supply / rock yard (not home depot, they
overcharge for stuff like this by as much as 100%) for prices on the
cinderblock. Might be less than you think $$.

Another alternative would be to get a truck and hand collect stones
of a size that you and your husband can handle, possibly with the
assistance of some day labor -- if your region has such stuff in
legally collectible areas of course.

C//

[ReelMcKoi]

What an attempt by Carol to get somebody to respond to her. tsk tsk tsk.

[Stephen Henning]

"Reel Mckoi" > wrote:

> OK, mine start to yellow when they run out of nutrients. A heaping Tbs.
> Potash per 1000 gallons always greens them up nicely. We get hail here but
> it doesn't yellow them, just tears up the leaves. They do best in water
> with 10-10-10 fertilizer but then the water greens up as well. I don't use
> 10-10-10 in my ponds but do in the propagation tanks.

My propagation tanks just had the water hyacinths and well water.
Nothing else. There were yellow all winter until the water got hot. In
the winter it can get down to 40F and the water hyacinths just sit there
and look sick. My propagation tanks are in a greenhouse so the water
gets up to about 80F in the spring. When this happens the water
hyacinth start growing and get very green. They stay green in the pond
which isn't fertilized either. It is spring fed and has golden shinner
minnows. However, I have lots of marginal plants and oxygenators to
keep the nutrients in check. No fertilizer.
--
Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to
18,000 gallon (17'x 47'x 2-4') lily pond garden in Zone 6
Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA

[Reel Mckoi]

"Stephen Henning" > wrote in message
...
> "Reel Mckoi" > wrote:
>
> > OK, mine start to yellow when they run out of nutrients. A heaping Tbs.
> > Potash per 1000 gallons always greens them up nicely. We get hail here
but
> > it doesn't yellow them, just tears up the leaves. They do best in water
> > with 10-10-10 fertilizer but then the water greens up as well. I don't
use
> > 10-10-10 in my ponds but do in the propagation tanks.
>
> My propagation tanks just had the water hyacinths and well water.
> Nothing else. There were yellow all winter until the water got hot. In
> the winter it can get down to 40F and the water hyacinths just sit there
> and look sick.
My propagation tanks are in a greenhouse so the water
> gets up to about 80F in the spring. When this happens the water
> hyacinth start growing and get very green. They stay green in the pond
> which isn't fertilized either. It is spring fed and has golden shinner
> minnows. However, I have lots of marginal plants and oxygenators to
> keep the nutrients in check. No fertilizer.
=============================
They're getting their "fertilizer" from somewhere, either from the shiners
or from the well water.
--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
EVERYONE: "Please check people's headers for forgeries
before flushing." NAMES ARE BEING FORGED.
My Pond Page http://tinyurl.com/crtso
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Courageous]

>## I don't know of any "landscape supply" places here.

Check your phone book. These are the "rock yard" style places that
have big ten foot wide bins of stuff. Usually contractors go there,
but all these places are open to the public.

Don't know what to tell you on the labor. I can't think of any
permanent solutions that don't involve some hefty lifting, and
probably digging.

C//

[Courageous]

>Probably I shouldn;t have done it and may be very sorry, but----
>This morning I went out and bought six water hyacinth. They will add some
>shade and reduce the oxygen and maybe, just maybe, I will be free of all
>that algae.

During the day, the water hyacinth will add, not reduce, oxygen to your
pond. At night, they may use it up, particularly if your pond is over
populated with it. One way to ameliorate this would be to make sure that
the water is properly circulated at night. Bottom to top, destratified
somehow, perhaps run through a waterfall if that's not too noisy.

If your pond is small, you won't have a problem with the WH, as long as
you cull them once in when. Actually, this is good, because the WH will
concentrate wastes in a form you can easily access. Toss it in your
compost heap.

If your pond is a large natural one, you may be very, very sorry.

Here's what can happen:

http://tncweeds.ucdavis.edu/photos/eiccr04.jpg

C//

[Courageous]

>Check your phone book. These are the "rock yard" style places that
>have big ten foot wide bins of stuff. Usually contractors go there,
>but all these places are open to the public.

One other thing:

Plastic. Cement. Is. Not. Concrete.

It cures differently, doesn't crack nearly so easily, can be manipulated
casually, and so forth. It's often sold as a sealant (e.g., Thoroseal).
And generally can be found in very low PH formulas.

C//

[Courageous]

>starting to get a bit yellowish in color. Maybe due to the hail we have
>been getting.

IIRC, they're only really invasive in states that don't freeze much.

C//

[Courageous]

>OK, mine start to yellow when they run out of nutrients. A heaping Tbs.
>Potash per 1000 gallons always greens them up nicely.

Good advice, I think. Another alternative would be any nitrate free
phosphate free "pond fertilizer". Probably more expensive, though.
/which/ potash, by the way?

C//