DSB versus SSB

[miskairal]

Can some kind soul please direct me to an article about the differences
(the fors and againsts) using Deep sand beds OR Shallow sand beds.

OR give me your own experiences and opinions.

I seem to be overwhelmed with info. The only aquarium near here that
stocks marine fish and equipment is 2 1/2 hours drive away. The owner
prefers the shallow bed b/c he said he's never seen a DSB last very long
without problems. His tanks are gorgeous and fish are always healthy,
even the tropicals. However most of the forums etc I have read only
discuss DSB.

Thanks

[PDS]

I prefer deep....... I start with playsand which you can get at somewhere
like a home depot or toys r us..... a couple inches makes a good base for
live rock and corals or whatever you might wants to dig into the base.. some
crushed coral on top of it all and ya got substrait that I have found
trouble free for years with normal vacuuming
"miskairal" > wrote in message
...
> Can some kind soul please direct me to an article about the differences
> (the fors and againsts) using Deep sand beds OR Shallow sand beds.
>
> OR give me your own experiences and opinions.
>
> I seem to be overwhelmed with info. The only aquarium near here that
> stocks marine fish and equipment is 2 1/2 hours drive away. The owner
> prefers the shallow bed b/c he said he's never seen a DSB last very long
> without problems. His tanks are gorgeous and fish are always healthy,
> even the tropicals. However most of the forums etc I have read only
> discuss DSB.
>
> Thanks

[lg]

"miskairal" > wrote in message
...
> Can some kind soul please direct me to an article about the differences
> (the fors and againsts) using Deep sand beds OR Shallow sand beds.
>
> OR give me your own experiences and opinions.
>
> I seem to be overwhelmed with info. The only aquarium near here that
> stocks marine fish and equipment is 2 1/2 hours drive away. The owner
> prefers the shallow bed b/c he said he's never seen a DSB last very long
> without problems. His tanks are gorgeous and fish are always healthy,
> even the tropicals. However most of the forums etc I have read only
> discuss DSB.
>
> Thanks

Find someone wih a nice healthy tank and follow there advice word for word
and don't listen to anyone else,

lg

[Pszemol]

"PDS" > wrote in message
...
> I prefer deep....... I start with playsand which you can get at somewhere
> like a home depot or toys r us..... a couple inches makes a good base for
> live rock and corals or whatever you might wants to dig into the base..
> some
> crushed coral on top of it all and ya got substrait that I have found
> trouble free for years with normal vacuuming

Vacuuming deep sand bed ??? You suck out all benefitial animals this way.

[Nappy]

miskairal wrote:
> Can some kind soul please direct me to an article about the differences
> (the fors and againsts) using Deep sand beds OR Shallow sand beds.
>
> OR give me your own experiences and opinions.
>
> I seem to be overwhelmed with info. The only aquarium near here that
> stocks marine fish and equipment is 2 1/2 hours drive away. The owner
> prefers the shallow bed b/c he said he's never seen a DSB last very long
> without problems. His tanks are gorgeous and fish are always healthy,
> even the tropicals. However most of the forums etc I have read only
> discuss DSB.
>
> Thanks

Happy Reading

http://gutfeeling.mine.nu/my/dsb.html

Kevin

[miskairal]

Nappy wrote:
> miskairal wrote:
>
>> Can some kind soul please direct me to an article about the
>> differences (the fors and againsts) using Deep sand beds OR Shallow
>> sand beds.
>>
>> OR give me your own experiences and opinions.
>>
>> I seem to be overwhelmed with info. The only aquarium near here that
>> stocks marine fish and equipment is 2 1/2 hours drive away. The owner
>> prefers the shallow bed b/c he said he's never seen a DSB last very
>> long without problems. His tanks are gorgeous and fish are always
>> healthy, even the tropicals. However most of the forums etc I have
>> read only discuss DSB.
>>
>> Thanks
>
>
> Happy Reading
>
> http://gutfeeling.mine.nu/my/dsb.html
>
> Kevin

Thanks for all your replies. I'm off to read.
I pretty much understand how the DSB works, I need more info on the SSB
though.

Cheers
miskairal

[Mislav]

Here http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2005/6/aafeature read this.
It explains DSB, SSB with or without plenum in experimental way. Seems to me
that there's no need for DSB or plenum after reading the article. SSB
wirhout plenum is enough.

Mislav



"miskairal" > wrote in message
...
> Nappy wrote:
>> miskairal wrote:
>>
>>> Can some kind soul please direct me to an article about the differences
>>> (the fors and againsts) using Deep sand beds OR Shallow sand beds.
>>>
>>> OR give me your own experiences and opinions.
>>>
>>> I seem to be overwhelmed with info. The only aquarium near here that
>>> stocks marine fish and equipment is 2 1/2 hours drive away. The owner
>>> prefers the shallow bed b/c he said he's never seen a DSB last very long
>>> without problems. His tanks are gorgeous and fish are always healthy,
>>> even the tropicals. However most of the forums etc I have read only
>>> discuss DSB.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>
>>
>> Happy Reading
>>
>> http://gutfeeling.mine.nu/my/dsb.html
>>
>> Kevin
>
> Thanks for all your replies. I'm off to read.
> I pretty much understand how the DSB works, I need more info on the SSB
> though.
>
> Cheers
> miskairal

[Tidepool Geek]

"Mislav" > wrote in message ...
> Here http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2005/6/aafeature read this.
> It explains DSB, SSB with or without plenum in experimental way. Seems to
> me that there's no need for DSB or plenum after reading the article. SSB
> wirhout plenum is enough.
>
Hi Mislav,

Don't base your decision on this article alone. The article you linked is
just part one and describes a very simplified and sanitized experiment.
Toonen & Wee will presumably publish part two in the July issue of Advanced
Aquarist Online and I'll be very surprised if the results don't show a
significant difference.

Part one deals with the ability of the various sand beds to process ammonia
only. That's an important and necessary step in the scientific process but,
by itself, it has no relevance to the real world. Part two of the experiment
will introduce some real animals to the equation. That will require the
system to process, not only ammonia, but feces, uneaten food, sloughed
slime/mucous, and even body parts (scales, sheds, etc.). I find it hard to
imagine that the extra biological richness of a Deep Sand Bed won't be
better at handling the more complex demands of an actual aquarium.

Even if the next part of the test shows no difference in the denitrification
abilities of these various beds, I would still find Ron Shimek's arguments
about the other benefits of a deep bed to be compelling. You can find a
number of Shimek's online articles here:
http://www.rshimek.com/reef/OnlineArticles.htm


Deeply yours,

TPG

[Rocco Moretti]

Tidepool Geek wrote:

> Part one deals with the ability of the various sand beds to process ammonia
> only. That's an important and necessary step in the scientific process but,
> by itself, it has no relevance to the real world. Part two of the experiment
> will introduce some real animals to the equation. That will require the
> system to process, not only ammonia, but feces, uneaten food, sloughed
> slime/mucous, and even body parts (scales, sheds, etc.). I find it hard to
> imagine that the extra biological richness of a Deep Sand Bed won't be
> better at handling the more complex demands of an actual aquarium.

Also note that they are using sterilized substrate repopulated by
bacteria in filtered natural sea water/liquefied squid. You'd possibly
see a different (and more complex) set of bacteria & animals if you use
Genuine Live Sand (R) and Genuine Live Rock(R), and such critters might
show differences with depth/ grain size/ plenum.

It's great someone is doing real research instead of just trusting
anecdotes, but the system is very complex, and one experiment (even one
that appears to be as well designed as this one) is never a be-all end-all.

[Mislav]

>> Part one deals with the ability of the various sand beds to process
>> ammonia
>> only. That's an important and necessary step in the scientific process
>> but, by itself, it has no relevance to the real world. Part two of the
>> experiment will introduce some real animals to the equation. That will
>> require the system to process, not only ammonia, but feces, uneaten food,
>> sloughed slime/mucous, and even body parts (scales, sheds, etc.). I find
>> it hard to imagine that the extra biological richness of a Deep Sand Bed
>> won't be better at handling the more complex demands of an actual
>> aquarium.

I'm pretty convinced that the results won't have significant differencies in
the new test.

> Also note that they are using sterilized substrate repopulated by bacteria
> in filtered natural sea water/liquefied squid. You'd possibly see a
> different (and more complex) set of bacteria & animals if you use Genuine
> Live Sand (R) and Genuine Live Rock(R), and such critters might show
> differences with depth/ grain size/ plenum.

I agree with that, but that doesn't mean that theese critters would do
something realy helpfoul. Bacteria are very fast in nutrient processing. If
given right conditions they multiply rapidly and use every resource
available.
One of the reasons Shimek introduced DSB is his statement that in deeper
layers of sand bed denitrification takes place. Article that I linked
clearly shows that there's no need for DSB as there were not any significant
concentrations in nitrate observed in any tank.

> It's great someone is doing real research instead of just trusting
> anecdotes, but the system is very complex, and one experiment (even one
> that appears to be as well designed as this one) is never a be-all
> end-all.

This is the first time someone reallly made scientific experiment to test
sand beds with or without plenum and different particle sizes. We shouldn't
just close our eyes and trust anectodes instead of this.
I'm very interested in folowing article.


Mislav

[miskairal]

Thankyou for your comments.
It never ceases to amaze me how much you have to learn to keep fish. I
am looking ofrward to Part 2 of that article and may well wait for it
before making my final decision.

Cheers
miskairal


Mislav wrote:
>>>Part one deals with the ability of the various sand beds to process
>>>ammonia
>>>only. That's an important and necessary step in the scientific process
>>>but, by itself, it has no relevance to the real world. Part two of the
>>>experiment will introduce some real animals to the equation. That will
>>>require the system to process, not only ammonia, but feces, uneaten food,
>>>sloughed slime/mucous, and even body parts (scales, sheds, etc.). I find
>>>it hard to imagine that the extra biological richness of a Deep Sand Bed
>>>won't be better at handling the more complex demands of an actual
>>>aquarium.
>
>
> I'm pretty convinced that the results won't have significant differencies in
> the new test.
>
>
>>Also note that they are using sterilized substrate repopulated by bacteria
>>in filtered natural sea water/liquefied squid. You'd possibly see a
>>different (and more complex) set of bacteria & animals if you use Genuine
>>Live Sand (R) and Genuine Live Rock(R), and such critters might show
>>differences with depth/ grain size/ plenum.
>
>
> I agree with that, but that doesn't mean that theese critters would do
> something realy helpfoul. Bacteria are very fast in nutrient processing. If
> given right conditions they multiply rapidly and use every resource
> available.
> One of the reasons Shimek introduced DSB is his statement that in deeper
> layers of sand bed denitrification takes place. Article that I linked
> clearly shows that there's no need for DSB as there were not any significant
> concentrations in nitrate observed in any tank.
>
>
>>It's great someone is doing real research instead of just trusting
>>anecdotes, but the system is very complex, and one experiment (even one
>>that appears to be as well designed as this one) is never a be-all
>>end-all.
>
>
> This is the first time someone reallly made scientific experiment to test
> sand beds with or without plenum and different particle sizes. We shouldn't
> just close our eyes and trust anectodes instead of this.
> I'm very interested in folowing article.
>
>
> Mislav
>
>

[Rocco Moretti]

Mislav wrote:

> One of the reasons Shimek introduced DSB is his statement that in deeper
> layers of sand bed denitrification takes place. Article that I linked
> clearly shows that there's no need for DSB as there were not any significant
> concentrations in nitrate observed in any tank.

A rationale for this might come from the Freshwater side of things. I
recently read Diana Walstad's "Ecology of the Planted Aquarium", and one
of the things she discusses is anaerobic zones in the substrate. When
bacteria are present, they form biofilms on the substrate particles. The
bottom layers of these biofilms are effectively anaerobic, even though
well oxygenated water is sitting less than a millimeter away. Similar
things could be happening here, where there is effectively anaerobic
zones even in the top cm or so of the substrate.


>>It's great someone is doing real research instead of just trusting
>>anecdotes, but the system is very complex, and one experiment (even one
>>that appears to be as well designed as this one) is never a be-all
>>end-all.
>
> This is the first time someone reallly made scientific experiment to test
> sand beds with or without plenum and different particle sizes. We shouldn't
> just close our eyes and trust anectodes instead of this.
> I'm very interested in folowing article.

Oh, most definitely. I don't think this research should be ignored. I
also don't think people should rip out their existing DSB, or completely
throw out the prevailing consensus on the topic, either. More research
and experimentation is needed to determine what works best. I definitely
think the more adventurous hobbyists should consider experimenting with
a SSB, and tracking nitrate levels in those systems.

[Mislav]

>> One of the reasons Shimek introduced DSB is his statement that in deeper
>> layers of sand bed denitrification takes place. Article that I linked
>> clearly shows that there's no need for DSB as there were not any
>> significant concentrations in nitrate observed in any tank.
>
> A rationale for this might come from the Freshwater side of things. I
> recently read Diana Walstad's "Ecology of the Planted Aquarium", and one
> of the things she discusses is anaerobic zones in the substrate. When
> bacteria are present, they form biofilms on the substrate particles. The
> bottom layers of these biofilms are effectively anaerobic, even though
> well oxygenated water is sitting less than a millimeter away. Similar
> things could be happening here, where there is effectively anaerobic zones
> even in the top cm or so of the substrate.


I didn't read it but it sounds plausible to me in the sal****er too. In the
top layer of biofilm live aerobic bacteria that use oxygen. Under that top
layer live anaerobic bacteria.
IIRC Eric Borneman wrote in one of his articles that denitrification happens
on every surface available, even on coral tissues.


>>>It's great someone is doing real research instead of just trusting
>>>anecdotes, but the system is very complex, and one experiment (even one
>>>that appears to be as well designed as this one) is never a be-all
>>>end-all.
>> This is the first time someone reallly made scientific experiment to
>> test sand beds with or without plenum and different particle sizes. We
>> shouldn't just close our eyes and trust anectodes instead of this.
>> I'm very interested in folowing article.
>
> Oh, most definitely. I don't think this research should be ignored. I also
> don't think people should rip out their existing DSB, or completely throw
> out the prevailing consensus on the topic, either. More research and
> experimentation is needed to determine what works best. I definitely think
> the more adventurous hobbyists should consider experimenting with a SSB,
> and tracking nitrate levels in those systems.

Everyone that is happy with DSB should leave it. Don't tuch things that
work. But those who are setting up the new tank should consider SSB instead
of DSB.