Why is my neighbors pond so perfectly clear.

[DD DDD]

I have a 300 gallon preform. My neighbor has a 200 gallon preform. I do
have bio.mech filter and all she has is a simple pump with a canister
and one fine sponge in it. No bio balls, no course filter or medium,
just one fine filter that is tiny. She said she puts no chemicals in.
She has 7 6 inch fish which seems over kill. She said her secret is a
automatic fill and drain system. A valve opens and puts in tap water
everyday (15%) And the overflow tube waters her garden. She uses no
declor. Is it possible to do this? She has done this for 3 years and
never lost one fish. She has chorine in her tap water but says 15% daily
water change has not harmed her fish and her water is crystal clear. She
cleans the small canister filter and puts in a new sponge once a month.
Takes her 5 minutes. She does no other maintenence at all. Can A pond
function with no bio? Cause it seems great to me. I have never seen a
pond clearer than heres. And she feeds her fish 2 times a day and I
think to much but it works for her. What does everyone think about this
setup? Thank you

[RustyKoi]

"DD DDD" > wrote in message
...
> I have a 300 gallon preform. My neighbor has a 200 gallon preform. I do
> have bio.mech filter and all she has is a simple pump with a canister
> and one fine sponge in it. No bio balls, no course filter or medium,
> just one fine filter that is tiny. She said she puts no chemicals in.
> She has 7 6 inch fish which seems over kill. She said her secret is a
> automatic fill and drain system. A valve opens and puts in tap water
> everyday (15%) And the overflow tube waters her garden.

# I wish I could afford something like that.

She uses no
> declor. Is it possible to do this?

# Yes, since it's only 15% of the water.

She has done this for 3 years and
> never lost one fish. She has chorine in her tap water but says 15% daily
> water change has not harmed her fish and her water is crystal clear. She
> cleans the small canister filter and puts in a new sponge once a month.

# Most sponges are reusable.

> Takes her 5 minutes. She does no other maintenence at all. Can A pond
> function with no bio? Cause it seems great to me. I have never seen a
> pond clearer than heres. And she feeds her fish 2 times a day and I
> think to much but it works for her. What does everyone think about this
> setup? Thank you

# I think it's great and the fish sure would love the fresh water. It's
crystal clear because nothing is building up in it to feed algae.
--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
EVERYONE: "Please check people's headers for forgeries
before flushing." NAMES ARE BEING FORGED.
Do not feed the trolls.
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[~ janj JJsPond.us]

>On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 23:34:33 -0500, (DD DDD) wrote:

>I have a 300 gallon preform. My neighbor has a 200 gallon preform. I do
>have bio.mech filter and all she has is a simple pump with a canister
>and one fine sponge in it. No bio balls, no course filter or medium,
>just one fine filter that is tiny. She said she puts no chemicals in.
>She has 7 6 inch fish which seems over kill. She said her secret is a
>automatic fill and drain system. A valve opens and puts in tap water
>everyday (15%) And the overflow tube waters her garden. She uses no
>declor. Is it possible to do this? She has done this for 3 years

Is it possible? Sounds obvious to me. Assuming she has goldfish, with good
filtration/water changes she could have 10. Giving each 20 gallons a piece.

>never lost one fish. She has chorine in her tap water but says 15% daily
>water change has not harmed her fish and her water is crystal clear. She
>cleans the small canister filter and puts in a new sponge once a month.
>Takes her 5 minutes. She does no other maintenence at all. Can A pond
>function with no bio?

There's bio going on there, the sides of the pond, plants and all surface
areas thereof.

I would consider 15% daily changes excessive, but if it's working for her,
who am I to tell her that fish won't swim? ;o) Only question I have, are
the 7 fish 3 years old? ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

[Snooze]

"DD DDD" > wrote in message
...
>I have a 300 gallon preform. My neighbor has a 200 gallon preform. I do
> have bio.mech filter and all she has is a simple pump with a canister
> and one fine sponge in it. No bio balls, no course filter or medium,
> just one fine filter that is tiny. She said she puts no chemicals in.
> She has 7 6 inch fish which seems over kill. She said her secret is a
> automatic fill and drain system. A valve opens and puts in tap water
> everyday (15%) And the overflow tube waters her garden. She uses no
> declor. Is it possible to do this? She has done this for 3 years and
> never lost one fish. She has chorine in her tap water but says 15% daily
> water change has not harmed her fish and her water is crystal clear. She
> cleans the small canister filter and puts in a new sponge once a month.
> Takes her 5 minutes. She does no other maintenence at all. Can A pond
> function with no bio? Cause it seems great to me. I have never seen a
> pond clearer than heres. And she feeds her fish 2 times a day and I
> think to much but it works for her. What does everyone think about this
> setup? Thank you
>

It would appear that she has the "lazy man's approach" to ponding.
The fairly low chlorine levels in the pond after she water cycles probably
doesn't harm the fish, but the dilute chlorine levels combined with the
diluted fish waste obviously helps maintain the water clarity.

200 gal with a daily 15% water change is 30 gal per day, about 900 gal per
month. Shower heads sold in this area are rated at 2.5gpm. So that's an
additional 12 minutes of shower time, daily. I can't think of any place in
the world where that kind of consistent waste of water would be considered
responsible behavior. You point out that she drains the water into the
garden, fortunately there aren't many plants that need a daily watering
(potted plants being the obvious exception)

[~Roy~]

I dunno about her claim,, but if she feels confident thats whats doing
her job for her, then fine, but often times adding fresh water
excessively or on a regular basis can ad to algae blooms...........

I do not use declor of any type in my holding tanks and QT when doing
water changes of 15% or less. I just use straight tap water..Over 25%
sometimes I do and sometimes I don;t........use dechlor. I do however
think daily water changes are excessive though, but hey its her time,
money and water and if its working for her great.

She may also have hit the right combination of plants, filtration rate
and fish load..........

A lot of folks IMHO create their own problems of turbid water by the
types of food they deed, and the amounts of food they feed, so take
your feeding practice into consideration as well.
Yes ponds can function without a BIO but a BIO can also help keep
things in check better as long as its functioning properly........one
that is not, can be a source of headaches.

I think if she is happy with however her fish. water / plants are then
its what she likes, and perhaps it may work for you or maybe not......

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 23:34:33 -0500, (DD DDD) wrote:

>===<>I have a 300 gallon preform. My neighbor has a 200 gallon preform. I do
>===<>have bio.mech filter and all she has is a simple pump with a canister
>===<>and one fine sponge in it. No bio balls, no course filter or medium,
>===<>just one fine filter that is tiny. She said she puts no chemicals in.
>===<>She has 7 6 inch fish which seems over kill. She said her secret is a
>===<>automatic fill and drain system. A valve opens and puts in tap water
>===<>everyday (15%) And the overflow tube waters her garden. She uses no
>===<>declor. Is it possible to do this? She has done this for 3 years and
>===<>never lost one fish. She has chorine in her tap water but says 15% daily
>===<>water change has not harmed her fish and her water is crystal clear. She
>===<>cleans the small canister filter and puts in a new sponge once a month.
>===<>Takes her 5 minutes. She does no other maintenence at all. Can A pond
>===<>function with no bio? Cause it seems great to me. I have never seen a
>===<>pond clearer than heres. And she feeds her fish 2 times a day and I
>===<>think to much but it works for her. What does everyone think about this
>===<>setup? Thank you


==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!
"The original frugal ponder"
~~~~ }<((((o> ~~~~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~~~~~ }<(((((o>

[Derek Broughton]

Snooze wrote:

> "DD DDD" > wrote in message
> ...
....
>> all she has is a simple pump with a canister
>> and one fine sponge in it.
....
>> She said her secret is a
>> automatic fill and drain system. A valve opens and puts in tap water
>> everyday (15%) And the overflow tube waters her garden. She uses no
>> declor. Is it possible to do this?
>
> It would appear that she has the "lazy man's approach" to ponding.
> The fairly low chlorine levels in the pond after she water cycles probably
> doesn't harm the fish, but the dilute chlorine levels combined with the
> diluted fish waste obviously helps maintain the water clarity.

Chlorine levels wouldn't do anything for clarity. It might kill stuff, but
then you'd have floating particulate dead stuff instead of floating
particulate live stuff.

> 200 gal with a daily 15% water change is 30 gal per day, about 900 gal per
> month. Shower heads sold in this area are rated at 2.5gpm. So that's an
> additional 12 minutes of shower time, daily. I can't think of any place in
> the world where that kind of consistent waste of water would be considered
> responsible behavior.

How about North America? That sort of consistent waste of water wouldn't
even be _noticed_ in a society that thinks it's alright to spray water over
lawns!

Still, I think it's serious overkill. There's no good reason why you would
need more than 5% if you're going to do changes daily.

My new pond is going to be watered from the eavestroughs, and won't have a
pump at all. It'll be interesting to see how well it works.
--
derek

[kathy]

And your neighbor doesn't have turtles
in her pond. You do. Turtles contribute a huge
amt of work for the bio filter.

kathy :-)

[Reel McKoi]

"Snooze" > wrote in message
m...
> 200 gal with a daily 15% water change is 30 gal per day, about 900 gal per
> month. Shower heads sold in this area are rated at 2.5gpm. So that's an
> additional 12 minutes of shower time, daily. I can't think of any place in
> the world where that kind of consistent waste of water would be considered
> responsible behavior. You point out that she drains the water into the
> garden, fortunately there aren't many plants that need a daily watering
> (potted plants being the obvious exception)
============================
She may have her own well. Just a thought. I personally would feel I'm
wasting water doing 15% every day unless I did have my own well. But then I
don't water my huge lawn either. I use recycled pond water on my flowers
and veggies.
--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
EVERYONE: "Please check people's headers for forgeries
before flushing." NAMES ARE BEING FORGED.
Do not feed the trolls.
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Snooze]

"Reel McKoi" > wrote in message
...
> She may have her own well. Just a thought. I personally would feel I'm
> wasting water doing 15% every day unless I did have my own well. But then
> I
> don't water my huge lawn either. I use recycled pond water on my flowers
> and veggies.

What makes you think that having your own well gives you the right to treat
water like it's gasoline. It's not like there is an limitless supply of
ground water for everyone to freely use. Decades of using the ground water
in the Salinas valley by the farmers as if it's a free resource has caused
salt water from the oceans to get drawn into the ground water supply.

Mexico city has dropped a few feet over the years because of ground water
depletion. Other cities aren't doing so well either. Rural areas are
partially isolated from the realities of drinkable water shortages by virtue
of the fact that many have their own well. In the south west water is used
to mask the fact they live in a desert, everyone has a nice lawn, and pool.

[Reel McKoi]

"Snooze" > wrote in message
m...
>
> "Reel McKoi" > wrote in message
> ...
> > She may have her own well. Just a thought. I personally would feel
I'm
> > wasting water doing 15% every day unless I did have my own well. But
then
> > I
> > don't water my huge lawn either. I use recycled pond water on my
flowers
> > and veggies.
>
> What makes you think that having your own well gives you the right to
treat
> water like it's gasoline.

## I had a well in NY. Why not use the water as it was there and
replenished with each rainfall and snowfall. If no one used it, it just
ended up in the river and then on down to the ocean.

It's not like there is an limitless supply of
> ground water for everyone to freely use.

## That depends on where you live. I live in the mid-south. No water
shortages here.

Decades of using the ground water
> in the Salinas valley by the farmers as if it's a free resource has caused
> salt water from the oceans to get drawn into the ground water supply.

## I'm aware of that.

> Mexico city has dropped a few feet over the years because of ground water
> depletion. Other cities aren't doing so well either. Rural areas are
> partially isolated from the realities of drinkable water shortages by
virtue
> of the fact that many have their own well.

## Our water here in TN comes from a small town Utility's deep well. The
surrounding towns get it from the river or a huge nearby lake. Again, it
depends on where you live.

In the south west water is used
> to mask the fact they live in a desert, everyone has a nice lawn, and
pool.

## It's hard to relate as I never lived there,... although I took a trip out
west in the 1970s.
--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
EVERYONE: "Please check people's headers for forgeries
before flushing." NAMES ARE BEING FORGED.
Do not feed the trolls.
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[~ janj JJsPond.us]

>On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 07:51:27 -0700, Courageous > wrote:

>Yes, but this much of a water infusion daily, in a region that happens
>to use chloramines, might be a bit dangerous. Because water districts
>can change to chloramines on a whim, or even temporarily, it can happen
>to the water gardener at any time.
>
>A smaller percentage, though, should be safe in any case. To do math,
>where it takes chlorine a day or so to evap, chloramine is closer to
>a week. 15% daily infusion of chloramine purified water, would invite
>a noticeable level in the pond.

True, but you're changing the equation now. ;o) ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

[Greg Cooper]

My book on Koi care written by Doc Johnson says that there is not safe
level for Chlorine exposure. Only amounts that are not immediately
lethal. Chlorine does cumulative damage to fish gills.

Cheers.

DD DDD wrote:
> She has 7 6 inch fish which seems over kill. She said her secret is a
> automatic fill and drain system. A valve opens and puts in tap water
> everyday (15%) And the overflow tube waters her garden. She uses no
> declor. Is it possible to do this? She has done this for 3 years and
> never lost one fish. She has chorine in her tap water but says 15% daily
> water change has not harmed her fish and her water is crystal clear.

[Derek Broughton]

Snooze wrote:

>
> "Reel McKoi" > wrote in message
> ...
>> She may have her own well. Just a thought. I personally would feel I'm
>> wasting water doing 15% every day unless I did have my own well. But
>> then I
>> don't water my huge lawn either. I use recycled pond water on my flowers
>> and veggies.
>
> What makes you think that having your own well gives you the right to
> treat water like it's gasoline. It's not like there is an limitless supply
> of ground water for everyone to freely use. Decades of using the ground
> water in the Salinas valley by the farmers as if it's a free resource has
> caused salt water from the oceans to get drawn into the ground water
> supply.

Hmmm. I don't think that's the way it works (ie, I think the salt water is
already in the ground, not being drawn in from the ocean), but the largest
aquifer in North America (the Ogallalla acquifer, covering much of the area
between the Rockies and the Mississippi), has been drastically depleted.
You can't just keep taking water out of a well and expecting it to last
forever.

And Carol, please stop adding "= name" to the end of subject lines. Half
the time you seem to be getting the attributions wrong, and for those
benighted folks who have lousy news readers, that don't properly thread
messages, it breaks the threading.
--
derek

[Derek Broughton]

Reel McKoi wrote:

>
> "Snooze" > wrote:
>
> ## I had a well in NY. Why not use the water as it was there and
> replenished with each rainfall and snowfall. If no one used it, it just
> ended up in the river and then on down to the ocean.

That's _only_ true for a dug well (ie, a well that is only a few feet deep).
Deep water acquifers take decades to centuries to recharge.
>
> It's not like there is an limitless supply of
>> ground water for everyone to freely use.
>
> ## That depends on where you live. I live in the mid-south. No water
> shortages here.

That's the kind of attitude that is going to turn the Ogallalla region into
a desert (that is, that part of it that isn't already one).
>
> Decades of using the ground water
>> in the Salinas valley by the farmers as if it's a free resource has
>> caused salt water from the oceans to get drawn into the ground water
>> supply.
>
> ## I'm aware of that.

Yet you encourage the same thing to happen in your area?
>
> ## Our water here in TN comes from a small town Utility's deep well. The
> surrounding towns get it from the river or a huge nearby lake. Again, it
> depends on where you live.

Note: "deep well". That's the problem...
--
derek

[Derek Broughton]

Greg Cooper wrote:

> My book on Koi care written by Doc Johnson says that there is not safe
> level for Chlorine exposure. Only amounts that are not immediately
> lethal. Chlorine does cumulative damage to fish gills.
>
That's true, but...

Chlorine is extremely reactive - that's why it's used in the first place.
It will get bound to all sorts of things in a pond (creating carcinogens in
the process...) and I really doubt it has much chance to get to fish gills
if you use small waterchanges. I also wonder how long the chloramine bond
can hold up in a pond loaded with organics.
--
derek

[Courageous]

>>automatic fill and drain system. A valve opens and puts in tap water
>>everyday (15%) And the overflow tube waters her garden. She uses no
>>declor. Is it possible to do this? She has done this for 3 years
>
>Is it possible? Sounds obvious to me.

Yes, but this much of a water infusion daily, in a region that happens
to use chloramines, might be a bit dangerous. Because water districts
can change to chloramines on a whim, or even temporarily, it can happen
to the water gardener at any time.

A smaller percentage, though, should be safe in any case. To do math,
where it takes chlorine a day or so to evap, chloramine is closer to
a week. 15% daily infusion of chloramine purified water, would invite
a noticeable level in the pond.

5% perhaps?

C//

[Reel McKoi]

"Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
...
> Reel McKoi wrote:
>
> >
> > "Snooze" > wrote:
> >
> > ## I had a well in NY. Why not use the water as it was there and
> > replenished with each rainfall and snowfall. If no one used it, it just
> > ended up in the river and then on down to the ocean.
>
> That's _only_ true for a dug well (ie, a well that is only a few feet
deep).
> Deep water acquifers take decades to centuries to recharge.

$$ Yes, our well was hand-dug and no deeper than about 8 to 10'.

> > It's not like there is an limitless supply of
> >> ground water for everyone to freely use.
> >
> > ## That depends on where you live. I live in the mid-south. No water
> > shortages here.

> That's the kind of attitude that is going to turn the Ogallalla region
into
> a desert (that is, that part of it that isn't already one).

$$ I saw something about that on TV awhile back. I don't know why they
allow farmers to use this ground water (Ogllalla region) when there are
areas of the our country that doesn't need such watering to grow crops. As
for watering lawns and golf courses there - it should be outlawed. Just my
opinion.....

> > Decades of using the ground water
> >> in the Salinas valley by the farmers as if it's a free resource has
> >> caused salt water from the oceans to get drawn into the ground water
> >> supply.
> >
> > ## I'm aware of that.
>
> Yet you encourage the same thing to happen in your area?
> >
> > ## Our water here in TN comes from a small town Utility's deep well.
The
> > surrounding towns get it from the river or a huge nearby lake. Again,
it
> > depends on where you live.
>
> Note: "deep well". That's the problem...

$$ Again, the people and the Gov. allow this Derek. Our new water co. is
not near any lakes or rivers to draw from. Then why allow them to open a
water Co. there? They also claim the deep well water is cleaner than
surface water. Cheaper to treat I suppose. We were getting utility water
from Murfreesboro before this new Co came along. It was river water and
tasted a lot better in my opinion. It was also 1/2 the price of what we're
paying for water now. I believe until we're in a serious situation people
will continue to waste water on lawns, car washings, two showers a day,
swimming pools and other non essential things. That's just the way most
people are. They have the attitude, "Let someone else conserve. I'm
SPECIAL."
--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
EVERYONE: "Please check people's headers for forgeries
before flushing." NAMES ARE BEING FORGED.
Do not feed the trolls.
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Reel McKoi]

"Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
...
> And Carol, please stop adding "= name" to the end of subject lines. Half
> the time you seem to be getting the attributions wrong, and for those
> benighted folks who have lousy news readers, that don't properly thread
> messages, it breaks the threading.
=========================
OK Derek, no problem. ;-)
--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
EVERYONE: "Please check people's headers for forgeries
before flushing." NAMES ARE BEING FORGED.
Do not feed the trolls.
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Courageous]

>My book on Koi care written by Doc Johnson says that there is not safe
>level for Chlorine exposure.

Chloramine is worse, and can be added by your local water district,
at any time, and without notice. It can also be spurious. They may
dose with it for a while, and then stop. The chemistry from local
water districts isn't constant, because they have to treat water in
response to contaminants. Any automated water system for ornamental
fish should be structured to assume the worst.

C//

[Robin]

"Snooze" > wrote in message
m...
>
> "Reel McKoi" > wrote in message
> ...
>> She may have her own well. Just a thought. I
>> personally would feel I'm
>> wasting water doing 15% every day unless I did have my
>> own well. But then I
>> don't water my huge lawn either. I use recycled pond
>> water on my flowers
>> and veggies.
>
> What makes you think that having your own well gives you
> the right to treat water like it's gasoline. It's not like
> there is an limitless supply of ground water for everyone
> to freely use. Decades of using the ground water in the
> Salinas valley by the farmers as if it's a free resource
> has caused salt water from the oceans to get drawn into
> the ground water supply.
>

For some, the only environmental concern about using well
water is the electricity expenditure. I live in an area
where a good sized river enters a fresh water bay. I live
less than one mile from the bay, and less than 1.5 miles
from the river. I only use natural products in my yard. My
water table is so high, that in periods of heavy rain, water
percolates up through small holes in the lawn. The problems
occur in areas where well water usage occurs faster than
nature can replace the source, such as the large aquifers in
the west, or when the water is used by large farms, or some
other source that contaminates it. There is as much water
on the earth today as there was at the dawn of time. The
only difference is how much of it is still usable.

Robin
http://community.webshots.com/user/robinandtami