Help Required

[Cyril The Squirrel]

I have noticed a problem with a Goldfish for a while now. I noticed
that he had black marks on his gill covers and down both sides, just in
certain areas, not all over. This was noticed over a year ago when my
fish returned from my brothers pond, I'd moved house and had to wait to
build my pond. These marks did not get any worse and possibly reduced
slightly until 2 to 3 weeks ago.

The fish started coming to the surface and going straight back down,
bubbles would then come to the surface.

I thought the black marks were possibly signs of a previous problem with
Ammonia although I have never found any trace of Ammonia in the pond
since it was built almost 2 years ago. I thought that the fish coming
to the surface was possibly a sign of gill flukes so used Malachite and
Formalin on two occasions as directed by the labels on the treatments to
try to get rid of anything in the pond that may cause problems.

Today I noticed that the Goldfish has also got black lips and black tips
on his tail and fins. I can't see anything else wrong with any fish in
my pond. I've got Goldfish, Orfe, Tench, Koi and Shubunkin in the pond,
they all seem happy apart from this one fish.

I've checked PH, Ammonia, Nitrate and Nitrite and can't find anything
wrong. Everything is reading 0 except for the PH which is 7.5, it has
been 7.5 since the pond was built, my pond is 17' x 9' x3'.

The pond was well stocked with plants but I've reduced a lot of the
planting to reduce clogging of my filter. The reduction has only taken
place this week and has had no effect on any readings with the test
kits. My filter is rated at 6 times my pond capacity so filtering
shouldn't be a problem. I have not tested the oxygen because my filter
is returning water which oxygenates the pond and I've also got a second
pump running as a fountain, again adding plenty of oxygen. Just to go a
bit further over the top I've got a air pump adding more oxygen.

To cut a long story short and get to the point. Has anybody any idea
what these black marks, lips and fin/tail tips could be?

Thanks in advance.

[~ janj JJsPond.us]

You might try this website:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/duncan.griffiths/Dtree.htm or
http://www.mu.edu/~buxtoni/puregold/home.html and let's know what you come
up with. ~ jan

>On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 16:59:44 GMT, Cyril The Squirrel wrote:

>I have noticed a problem with a Goldfish for a while now. I noticed
>that he had black marks on his gill covers and down both sides, just in
>certain areas, not all over. This was noticed over a year ago when my
>fish returned from my brothers pond, I'd moved house and had to wait to
>build my pond. These marks did not get any worse and possibly reduced
>slightly until 2 to 3 weeks ago.
>
>The fish started coming to the surface and going straight back down,
>bubbles would then come to the surface.
>
>I thought the black marks were possibly signs of a previous problem with
>Ammonia although I have never found any trace of Ammonia in the pond
>since it was built almost 2 years ago. I thought that the fish coming
>to the surface was possibly a sign of gill flukes so used Malachite and
>Formalin on two occasions as directed by the labels on the treatments to
>try to get rid of anything in the pond that may cause problems.
>
>Today I noticed that the Goldfish has also got black lips and black tips
>on his tail and fins. I can't see anything else wrong with any fish in
>my pond. I've got Goldfish, Orfe, Tench, Koi and Shubunkin in the pond,
>they all seem happy apart from this one fish.
>
>I've checked PH, Ammonia, Nitrate and Nitrite and can't find anything
>wrong. Everything is reading 0 except for the PH which is 7.5, it has
>been 7.5 since the pond was built, my pond is 17' x 9' x3'.
>
>The pond was well stocked with plants but I've reduced a lot of the
>planting to reduce clogging of my filter. The reduction has only taken
>place this week and has had no effect on any readings with the test
>kits. My filter is rated at 6 times my pond capacity so filtering
>shouldn't be a problem. I have not tested the oxygen because my filter
>is returning water which oxygenates the pond and I've also got a second
>pump running as a fountain, again adding plenty of oxygen. Just to go a
>bit further over the top I've got a air pump adding more oxygen.
>
>To cut a long story short and get to the point. Has anybody any idea
>what these black marks, lips and fin/tail tips could be?
>
>Thanks in advance.

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

[Reel McKoi]

"Cyril The Squirrel" > wrote in message
.. .
> I have noticed a problem with a Goldfish for a while now. I noticed
> that he had black marks on his gill covers and down both sides, just in
> certain areas, not all over...........
================
You can check www.koivet.com, a site run by a Lic. veterinarian who treats
and keeps pond fish.
--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
EVERYONE: "Please check people's headers for forgeries
before flushing." NAMES ARE BEING FORGED.
Do not feed the trolls.
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Cyril The Squirrel]

In article >,
says...
>
> "Cyril The Squirrel" > wrote in message
> .. .
> > I have noticed a problem with a Goldfish for a while now. I noticed
> > that he had black marks on his gill covers and down both sides, just in
> > certain areas, not all over...........
> ================
> You can check www.koivet.com, a site run by a Lic. veterinarian who treats
> and keeps pond fish.
>
Thanks for that, it looks like things are pointing the way I expected
apart from the black around the mouth. That's the bit that has thrown
me more than anything else, I can't find an explination for that one,
it's head scratching time.

I've got quite a good book which came highly reccomended, Handbook of
Fish Diseases by Dieter Untergasser so I'll take another look through it
to see if I've missed something.

[Cyril The Squirrel]

In article >, JJsPond@noe-
mail.com says...
> You might try this website:
> http://homepage.ntlworld.com/duncan.griffiths/Dtree.htm or
> http://www.mu.edu/~buxtoni/puregold/home.html and let's know what you come
> up with. ~ jan
>
> snip

Thanks Jan, will do.

[Reel McKoi]

"Cyril The Squirrel" > wrote in message
.. .
> To cut a long story short and get to the point. Has anybody any idea
> what these black marks, lips and fin/tail tips could be?
===================
I was thinking,... if these are shubunkins they do sometimes develop color
in places they didn't have it before. Could that be a possibility? They
can go through some real color changes.
--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
EVERYONE: "Please check people's headers for forgeries
before flushing." NAMES ARE BEING FORGED.
Do not feed the trolls.
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Gale Pearce]

I have had some of my goldfish change colors just like what you described,
including the lips, fins, sides and anywhere else on their body as they go
from black to gold or whatever other color - if all your tests come up
good, you probably don't have a problem, IMHO
Gale :~)
> I have noticed a problem with a Goldfish for a while now. I noticed
> that he had black marks on his gill covers and down both sides, just in
> certain areas, not all over. This was noticed over a year ago when my
> fish returned from my brothers pond, I'd moved house and had to wait to
> build my pond. These marks did not get any worse and possibly reduced
> slightly until 2 to 3 weeks ago.
>
> The fish started coming to the surface and going straight back down,
> bubbles would then come to the surface.
>
> I thought the black marks were possibly signs of a previous problem with
> Ammonia although I have never found any trace of Ammonia in the pond
> since it was built almost 2 years ago. I thought that the fish coming
> to the surface was possibly a sign of gill flukes so used Malachite and
> Formalin on two occasions as directed by the labels on the treatments to
> try to get rid of anything in the pond that may cause problems.
>
> Today I noticed that the Goldfish has also got black lips and black tips
> on his tail and fins. I can't see anything else wrong with any fish in
> my pond. I've got Goldfish, Orfe, Tench, Koi and Shubunkin in the pond,
> they all seem happy apart from this one fish.
>
> I've checked PH, Ammonia, Nitrate and Nitrite and can't find anything
> wrong. Everything is reading 0 except for the PH which is 7.5, it has
> been 7.5 since the pond was built, my pond is 17' x 9' x3'.
>
> The pond was well stocked with plants but I've reduced a lot of the
> planting to reduce clogging of my filter. The reduction has only taken
> place this week and has had no effect on any readings with the test
> kits. My filter is rated at 6 times my pond capacity so filtering
> shouldn't be a problem. I have not tested the oxygen because my filter
> is returning water which oxygenates the pond and I've also got a second
> pump running as a fountain, again adding plenty of oxygen. Just to go a
> bit further over the top I've got a air pump adding more oxygen.
>
> To cut a long story short and get to the point. Has anybody any idea
> what these black marks, lips and fin/tail tips could be?
>
> Thanks in advance.

[Cyril The Squirrel]

In article >,
says...
>
> "Cyril The Squirrel" > wrote in message
> .. .
> > To cut a long story short and get to the point. Has anybody any idea
> > what these black marks, lips and fin/tail tips could be?
> ===================
> I was thinking,... if these are shubunkins they do sometimes develop color
> in places they didn't have it before. Could that be a possibility? They
> can go through some real color changes.
>
The fish is actually a Goldfish, I do have one Shubunkin and it's
perfectly OK. This one Goldfish is the only fish that looks anything
other than perfectly healthy. It was never a problem until I moved
house and put it in my brothers pond. When it was returned I first
noticed black marks on the gill covers and was convinced that adding my
fish to his pond had caused an ammonia spike. However, I'm now not sure
because the same fish has black on other parts of it's body. I know
this can be taken as an after effect of a problem and a signal of the
healing process, the lips going black has really thrown me. The same
fish developed a behaviour change a couple of weeks ago before I noticed
the coloration around the mouth. It was coming out of the water in a
similar manner to what you see Dolphins doing when they swim next to a
boat. I haven't seen the fish come out of the water at all for probably
4 to 5 days so it could be getting back to normal.

It's a puzzle.

[Cyril The Squirrel]

In article >,
says...
> I have had some of my goldfish change colors just like what you described,
> including the lips, fins, sides and anywhere else on their body as they go
> from black to gold or whatever other color - if all your tests come up
> good, you probably don't have a problem, IMHO
> Gale :~)
> snip

Thanks Gale,

I wouldn't have worried if it was going from black to gold as that's
normal for young fish. This one has gone the opposite way, gold to
black and it's probably 10" to 12 " long.

[Gale Pearce]

Wow - that's a new one to me
Gale :~)
"Cyril The Squirrel" > wrote in message
. ..
> In article >,
> says...
> > I have had some of my goldfish change colors just like what you
described,
> > including the lips, fins, sides and anywhere else on their body as they
go
> > from black to gold or whatever other color - if all your tests come up
> > good, you probably don't have a problem, IMHO
> > Gale :~)
> > snip
>
> Thanks Gale,
>
> I wouldn't have worried if it was going from black to gold as that's
> normal for young fish. This one has gone the opposite way, gold to
> black and it's probably 10" to 12 " long.

[Reel Mckoi]

"Cyril The Squirrel" > wrote in message
. ..
It was coming out of the water in a
> similar manner to what you see Dolphins doing when they swim next to a
> boat. I haven't seen the fish come out of the water at all for probably
> 4 to 5 days so it could be getting back to normal.
====================
Very interesting. Please keep us updated on what happens with this fish.
--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
EVERYONE: "Please check people's headers for forgeries
before flushing." NAMES ARE BEING FORGED.
Do not feed the trolls.
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Cyril The Squirrel]

In article >,
says...
> snip
> Very interesting. Please keep us updated on what happens with this fish.
>
I will do that, I'm off work tomorrow so should have more time to see
what is happening over a longer period, weather permitting.

I might get the fish out of the pond and do a scrape and check it under
a scope although I don't really want to stress the fish too much. It's
one of those where you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.

I did this a couple of years ago when I had a sick fish and couldn't
stop scratching my skin when looking at the slide and seeing everything
crawling about, it's not for the faint hearted, I'm scratching now just
thinking about it.

Is it possible that the fish has had mouth rot? I've never had a fish
with this problem so not sure how a recovering fish would look.

Has anybody had a fish that has recovered from mouth rot and how did it
look and act while recovering?

[Cyril The Squirrel]

In article >,
says...
> Wow - that's a new one to me
> Gale :~)
> snip

It's new to me, my fish are normally perfectly healthy, I've had two
fish that have had one problem each in the last four years. I suppose
I'm lucky in that way, I'd rather not become an expert on fish
problems/diseases, at least not through practical experience.

[Reel Mckoi]

"Cyril The Squirrel" > wrote in message
. ..
> In article >,
> says...
> > snip
> > Very interesting. Please keep us updated on what happens with this
fish.
> >
> I will do that, I'm off work tomorrow so should have more time to see
> what is happening over a longer period, weather permitting.
>
> I might get the fish out of the pond and do a scrape and check it under
> a scope although I don't really want to stress the fish too much. It's
> one of those where you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.

$$ I know what you mean. I hate to stress them unless it's absolutely
necessary in this heat. I checked the water temp' a few hours ago and it
was 88 F. :-( I had to move some fry because two small frogs managed to
squeeze into their pool. So far they look ok. I added another air-stone.

> I did this a couple of years ago when I had a sick fish and couldn't
> stop scratching my skin when looking at the slide and seeing everything
> crawling about, it's not for the faint hearted, I'm scratching now just
> thinking about it.

$$ LOL!!!! :-D You see amazing things under the 'scope.

> Is it possible that the fish has had mouth rot? I've never had a fish
> with this problem so not sure how a recovering fish would look.

$$ I don't know. I do recall a platy or swordtail some years ago with
mouth rot (a bacterial infection) but it died. Why don't you wait and see
what happens..... You said the others looked ok.

> Has anybody had a fish that has recovered from mouth rot and how did it
> look and act while recovering?
--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
EVERYONE: "Please check people's headers for forgeries
before flushing." NAMES ARE BEING FORGED.
Do not feed the trolls.
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[~Roy~]

How do you know what stresses a fish more, the problem it has and
letting it go so no further stresses are implied and hope for the best
or shotgun treat and cross your fingers or the process of netting it,
scoping it and getting the right treatment for it Even the most
proficient and dedicated koi keepers will net the mopst sick or
stressed out fish and see that it is scoped and gets the proper
treatment.....Not saying its not stressfull, but if that fish died
from the added stress of netting and scoping it was destined to die
anyhow........Same basic thing when you use PP in a pond for parasites
or other problems. If a fish dies and a proper dose and steps were
taken with PP that fish wa going to die no matter what you may have
done.........Go net the fish and scope it, your already ahead of the
game if you know how to scope and scrape.......and both you and the
fish will gain.

==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!
"The original frugal ponder"
~~~~ }<((((o> ~~~~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~~~~~ }<(((((o>

[Cyril The Squirrel]

In article >,
says...
>
> How do you know what stresses a fish more, the problem it has and
> letting it go so no further stresses are implied and hope for the best
> or shotgun treat and cross your fingers or the process of netting it,
> scoping it and getting the right treatment for it Even the most
> proficient and dedicated koi keepers will net the mopst sick or
> stressed out fish and see that it is scoped and gets the proper
> treatment.....Not saying its not stressfull, but if that fish died
> from the added stress of netting and scoping it was destined to die
> anyhow........Same basic thing when you use PP in a pond for parasites
> or other problems. If a fish dies and a proper dose and steps were
> taken with PP that fish wa going to die no matter what you may have
> done.........Go net the fish and scope it, your already ahead of the
> game if you know how to scope and scrape.......and both you and the
> fish will gain.
>

I wouldn't argue with that.

[Cyril The Squirrel]

In article >,
says...
> I have noticed a problem with a Goldfish for a while now. I noticed
> that he had black marks on his gill covers and down both sides, just in
> certain areas, not all over. This was noticed over a year ago when my
> fish returned from my brothers pond, I'd moved house and had to wait to
> build my pond. These marks did not get any worse and possibly reduced
> slightly until 2 to 3 weeks ago.
>
> The fish started coming to the surface and going straight back down,
> bubbles would then come to the surface.
> snip

I said I would update when anything changed so here goes:

I've done a scrape and checked it and didn't find too much wrong which I
found hard to beleive.

I've taken some photo's of the fish and uploaded them to
http://www.sendmefile.com/0012213
the file is 2.51mb in size and contains 8 photographs of the fish
showing it's scale colouration, lip colouration and now swelling.

I still have no idea what the problem is but would appreciate any
advice.

The file is a .rar file.

[Roy]

On dial up and not about to fooll with rar, but each and evey time any
of my comets got black on them it was form water paramters being out.
I bought some nice red and white feeders and a lot of them had some
unique black markings, one in particular had its dorsal fine striped
with every other spine and area between red, then white then
black,,,,and some looked like checker boards.........The black all
went away from all those fish within 3 weeks once I got them in good
water. I had been overly busy later on, and my water wa fair but not
good, and low and behold their black color was once again coming back
on them.......got my water to proper parameter and black once again
went away......The last batch of feeders I bought about 10 days ago
also had lolts of them with black marks, which most have dissapeared
now since they are being kept in decent conditions...

Then again some say its common coloration in some GF.....

On Sat, 02 Jul 2005 17:19:12 GMT, Cyril The Squirrel
> wrote:

>===<>In article >,
says...
>===<>> I have noticed a problem with a Goldfish for a while now. I noticed
>===<>> that he had black marks on his gill covers and down both sides, just in
>===<>> certain areas, not all over. This was noticed over a year ago when my
>===<>> fish returned from my brothers pond, I'd moved house and had to wait to
>===<>> build my pond. These marks did not get any worse and possibly reduced
>===<>> slightly until 2 to 3 weeks ago.
>===<>>
>===<>> The fish started coming to the surface and going straight back down,
>===<>> bubbles would then come to the surface.
>===<>> snip
>===<>
>===<>I said I would update when anything changed so here goes:
>===<>
>===<>I've done a scrape and checked it and didn't find too much wrong which I
>===<>found hard to beleive.
>===<>
>===<>I've taken some photo's of the fish and uploaded them to
>===<>http://www.sendmefile.com/0012213
>===<>the file is 2.51mb in size and contains 8 photographs of the fish
>===<>showing it's scale colouration, lip colouration and now swelling.
>===<>
>===<>I still have no idea what the problem is but would appreciate any
>===<>advice.
>===<>
>===<>The file is a .rar file.


==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!
"The original frugal ponder"
~~~~ }<((((o> ~~~~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~~~~~ }<(((((o>

[Cyril The Squirrel]

In article >,
says...
> On dial up and not about to fooll with rar, but each and evey time any
> of my comets got black on them it was form water paramters being out.
> I bought some nice red and white feeders and a lot of them had some
> unique black markings, one in particular had its dorsal fine striped
> with every other spine and area between red, then white then
> black,,,,and some looked like checker boards.........The black all
> went away from all those fish within 3 weeks once I got them in good
> water. I had been overly busy later on, and my water wa fair but not
> good, and low and behold their black color was once again coming back
> on them.......got my water to proper parameter and black once again
> went away......The last batch of feeders I bought about 10 days ago
> also had lolts of them with black marks, which most have dissapeared
> now since they are being kept in decent conditions...
>
> Then again some say its common coloration in some GF.....
> snip

I know some people are a bit worried about compressed files and it's
sensible, that's why I mentioned the file type. Size is also important
for people with really slow dial up's.

I've uploaded the photo's but they are between 317kb and 334kb.

http://www.imagehosting.us/?id=576663&type=viewpic

http://www.imagehosting.us/?id=576668&type=viewpic

http://www.imagehosting.us/?id=576670&type=viewpic

http://www.imagehosting.us/?id=576671&type=viewpic

http://www.imagehosting.us/?id=576676&type=viewpic

http://www.imagehosting.us/?id=576678&type=viewpic

http://www.imagehosting.us/?id=576680&type=viewpic

http://www.imagehosting.us/?id=576682&type=viewpic

[Reel Mckoi]

"Cyril The Squirrel" > wrote in message
. ..
> I've uploaded the photo's but they are between 317kb and 334kb.
>
> http://www.imagehosting.us/?id=576663&type=viewpic

This is what I get:

Warning: mysql_connect(): Can't connect to local MySQL server through socket
'/var/tmp/mysql.sock' (111) in
/home/imagehos/public_html/bapi/db/mysql_impl.php on line 21

Fatal error: 10001
Can't connect to local MySQL server through socket '/var/tmp/mysql.sock'
(111)
--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
EVERYONE: "Please check people's headers for forgeries
before flushing." NAMES ARE BEING FORGED.
My Pond Page http://tinyurl.com/cuq5b
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Cyril The Squirrel]

In article >,
says...
> snip
> >
> > http://www.imagehosting.us/?id=576663&type=viewpic
>
> This is what I get:
>
> Warning: mysql_connect(): Can't connect to local MySQL server through socket
> '/var/tmp/mysql.sock' (111) in
> /home/imagehos/public_html/bapi/db/mysql_impl.php on line 21
>
> Fatal error: 10001
> Can't connect to local MySQL server through socket '/var/tmp/mysql.sock'
> (111)
>
It's just worked for me but the service is free and not 100% reliable,
thanks.

[~ janj JJsPond.us]

>I've uploaded the photo's but they are between 317kb and 334kb.
>
>http://www.imagehosting.us/?id=576663&type=viewpic
>
>http://www.imagehosting.us/?id=576668&type=viewpic
>
>http://www.imagehosting.us/?id=576670&type=viewpic
>
>http://www.imagehosting.us/?id=576671&type=viewpic
>
>http://www.imagehosting.us/?id=576676&type=viewpic
>
>http://www.imagehosting.us/?id=576678&type=viewpic
>
>http://www.imagehosting.us/?id=576680&type=viewpic
>
>http://www.imagehosting.us/?id=576682&type=viewpic

That is one BIG goldfish! Did you report your water parameters?

If there isn't a problem with those, perhaps like koi, black can come and
go. I know pH alone can cause black freckles in koi, or make a black &
white Bekko go all white or become all black. (Not personal experience just
what I've heard.) Otherwise, the black, to me, looks like coloring, not a
skin problem. ~ jan


See my ponds and filter design:
www.jjspond.us

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

[Cyril The Squirrel]

In article >, JJsPond@noe-
mail.com says...
> snip
>
> That is one BIG goldfish! Did you report your water parameters?

I didn't report the parameters, I think I said they were OK. Ammonia,
Nitrate and Nitrite were 0 and the pH was 7.5 which it always has been.
The pHhas never moved in the pond for the 2 years in which I've had it.
The pond water is kept really clean, it looks like drinking water.

I might get a back up test kit just to make sure once in a while. The
test kit's I have are made by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals and I have found
them to be good in the past. I've used them for years although I'm not
sure how long I've had these ones or how long they last.

> If there isn't a problem with those, perhaps like koi, black can come and
> go. I know pH alone can cause black freckles in koi, or make a black &
> white Bekko go all white or become all black. (Not personal experience just
> what I've heard.) Otherwise, the black, to me, looks like coloring, not a
> skin problem. ~ jan
>
>
> See my ponds and filter design:
> www.jjspond.us
>
> ~Keep 'em Wet!~
> Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
> To e-mail see website
>

[~ janj JJsPond.us]

>> That is one BIG goldfish! Did you report your water parameters?
>
>I didn't report the parameters, I think I said they were OK. Ammonia,
>Nitrate and Nitrite were 0 and the pH was 7.5 which it always has been.
>The pHhas never moved in the pond for the 2 years in which I've had it.
>The pond water is kept really clean, it looks like drinking water.

Do you happen to have a test for KH?

>I might get a back up test kit just to make sure once in a while. The
>test kit's I have are made by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals and I have found
>them to be good in the past. I've used them for years although I'm not
>sure how long I've had these ones or how long they last.

That's the brand I use, they have a manufacturing date on the bottle's
front label called a Lot No. They are "supposedly" good for 2 years past
that date. Example: I have an old test kit sitting on my desk here to refer
to. It says its Lot No. is 86A0802, so its manufacturing date was 08/2002
thus expired 08/2004. ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

[Cyril The Squirrel]

In article >, JJsPond@noe-
mail.com says...
> snip
>
> Do you happen to have a test for KH?

I do have a test for KH but have not done the test as I don't know where
it is.

> snip
>
> That's the brand I use, they have a manufacturing date on the bottle's
> front label called a Lot No. They are "supposedly" good for 2 years past
> that date. Example: I have an old test kit sitting on my desk here to refer
> to. It says its Lot No. is 86A0802, so its manufacturing date was 08/2002
> thus expired 08/2004. ~ jan
>
> ~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~
>
Very interesting Jan, I've just checked my Ammonia kit and it is out of
date (86A1101). A long time out of date and it probably was when I
bought it so without checking the others I'd say they were all out of
date. I bought the kit over the internet so wouldn't have been able to
check the info' even if I knew where to check at the time. Have you
tested the out of date kit against a new kit? If so were the results
different?

I'll renew all kits from a shop where I can check the labels before
handing over any money.

By the way, the fish eventually died, my kids were devastated as
something personal was associated with the fish. I did find out that
the problem was a stone stopping the fish from passing waste. It had
partly swallowed the stone, it almost managed to pass it, I doubt I
could have done much for the fish. I'll spend some time trying to
locate a local vet for future reference although I doubt I'll find one
that normally works with fish. We have a local large aquarium so they
might be able to point me in the right direction.

I really hate losing pets as I feel really responsible for them and will
spend a fortune to keep them in good health. The most I've spent trying
to help one fish was in the region of 600 uk pounds. The fish was ill
and I didn't know what was wrong with it so I bought a huge tank with
all of the kit so that I could bring the fish indoors to keep an eye on
it. Then I bought a good quality microscope so that I could identify
the problem so that I could treat it. Then came books, videos,
chemicals, test kits, the list goes on and on and on.

[~ janj JJsPond.us]

On Sat, 09 Jul 2005 09:08:28 GMT, Cyril The Squirrel wrote:

>Very interesting Jan, I've just checked my Ammonia kit and it is out of
>date (86A1101). A long time out of date and it probably was when I
>bought it so without checking the others I'd say they were all out of
>date. I bought the kit over the internet

I've had better luck over the net than locally. I usually write the company
a note in the comments area (if they have one) regarding the lot no. and
not to send me any old test kits. If they don't have a comments area I
write them an E prior to ordering. Nutrafin produced by Hagen out of
Canada.... now those kits don't try to hide their dates in a Lot No. They
have the expiration date right on the box and claim they last longer than 2
years. Last summer I purchased their pH kit with an expiration date of
7/2008 on it. In my case, I go thru pH faster than anything else, using
most to all of it in a season as I compare pH in pond & tanks when moving
fish in or out.

As far as using them after the date. When we had the KHA class, the older
ones were less accurate when using a standard to test them against. Strips
being the worst, since they're so sensitive to being left in the sun, heat,
cold and they just die after the expiration date (had that happen to me, so
I don't waste the money on them any more).

> By the way, the fish eventually died

Sorry to hear about the fish, but nice to know there was a reason that you
couldn't have prevented. ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

[Cyril The Squirrel]

In article >, JJsPond@noe-
mail.com says...
> snip
>
> I've had better luck over the net than locally. I usually write the company
> a note in the comments area (if they have one) regarding the lot no. and
> not to send me any old test kits. If they don't have a comments area I
> write them an E prior to ordering. Nutrafin produced by Hagen out of
> Canada.... now those kits don't try to hide their dates in a Lot No. They
> have the expiration date right on the box and claim they last longer than 2
> years. Last summer I purchased their pH kit with an expiration date of
> 7/2008 on it. In my case, I go thru pH faster than anything else, using
> most to all of it in a season as I compare pH in pond & tanks when moving
> fish in or out.

I once lived in an area where the water was very soft and went through
pH kits as it they were going out of fashion. Keeping a stable pH
wasn't impossible but it was a big problem. The biggest problem I had
was after heavy rain and it wasn't due to run off. The pH could change
by .5 to 1.0 within a few hours, this happened twice, I never allowed it
to happen again, it meant large water changes. The water changes were a
pain in summer as I had to regulate the temperature by adding hot and
cold water at the same time. I'd put both through the same hose and
adjust until I could get the same temperature as the pond.

I only got fish originally because I thought you just had to drop them
in water and that was it. I suppose they must me one of the hardest
pets to keep and that's probably what makes keeping them more
interesting.

> As far as using them after the date. When we had the KHA class, the older
> ones were less accurate when using a standard to test them against. Strips
> being the worst, since they're so sensitive to being left in the sun, heat,
> cold and they just die after the expiration date (had that happen to me, so
> I don't waste the money on them any more).
>
> > By the way, the fish eventually died
>
> Sorry to hear about the fish, but nice to know there was a reason that you
> couldn't have prevented. ~ jan
>
The black on the fish didn't help, I was looking for a different
problem.

[~ janj JJsPond.us]

>I only got fish originally because I thought you just had to drop them
>in water and that was it. I suppose they must me one of the hardest
>pets to keep and that's probably what makes keeping them more
>interesting. Cyril

Yes, ditto on dropping them in. I once overheard my husband talking to a
relative, while they were gazing at the pond, what a fish keeper I was, to
not only keep them alive and healthy, but the water clear. :o) ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

[Courageous]

>>I only got fish originally because I thought you just had to drop them
>>in water and that was it. I suppose they must me one of the hardest
>>pets to keep and that's probably what makes keeping them more
>>interesting. Cyril

Koi are easy smeeshy compared to a marine aquarium.

That's so difficult, putting one in the hands of an unread amateur is
basically a death sentence for the entire tank.

C//

[Roy]

And I assume your a professional on SW..............geeeeeeeeee
whizzzzzzzzzzzz I have always thought SW to be much easier than FW
once it was set up and cycled.........sounds like your the amateur
now.


On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 16:57:28 -0700, Courageous
> wrote:

>===<>
>===<>>>I only got fish originally because I thought you just had to drop them
>===<>>>in water and that was it. I suppose they must me one of the hardest
>===<>>>pets to keep and that's probably what makes keeping them more
>===<>>>interesting. Cyril
>===<>
>===<>Koi are easy smeeshy compared to a marine aquarium.
>===<>
>===<>That's so difficult, putting one in the hands of an unread amateur is
>===<>basically a death sentence for the entire tank.
>===<>
>===<>C//


==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!
"The original frugal ponder"
~~~~ }<((((o> ~~~~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~~~~~ }<(((((o>

[Courageous]

>And I assume your a professional on SW..............geeeeeeeeee
>whizzzzzzzzzzzz I have always thought SW to be much easier than FW
>once it was set up and cycled.........sounds like your the amateur
>now.

Your narcissism is raising its ugly head again.

C//

[Roy]

And your ingnorance and peresistence in stirring a pot is very evident
so keep on ......your replies are only adding to the clutter and
traffic you complain about. You decided to put your dog in the scrap,
its up to you when you take it out.. .Same as a few others that
elected to throw their dog in the scrap, they need take em out as
well. Now take a hike!


On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 07:49:04 -0700, Courageous
> wrote:

>===<>
>===<>>And I assume your a professional on SW..............geeeeeeeeee
>===<>>whizzzzzzzzzzzz I have always thought SW to be much easier than FW
>===<>>once it was set up and cycled.........sounds like your the amateur
>===<>>now.
>===<>
>===<>Your narcissism is raising its ugly head again.
>===<>
>===<>C//


==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!
"The original frugal ponder"
~~~~ }<((((o> ~~~~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~~~~~ }<(((((o>

[Courageous]

>And your ingnorance and peresistence in stirring a pot is very evident
>so keep on .....

Says the person who had a chance to leave it alone, but instead
initiated an attack in this thread and then hit <SEND>.

C//

[Roy]

Your grasping at straws now spineless....how you ever come up with
courageous is beyond me........So with your insietence to keep poking
I assume you like to keep the noise level high, so be it....but don;t
forget,. you were warned..........so now that you want to throw a dog
into this crap, I consider you fair game as well..........you had your
choice asshole!

On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 17:38:55 -0700, Courageous
> wrote:

>===<>
>===<>>And your ingnorance and peresistence in stirring a pot is very evident
>===<>>so keep on .....
>===<>
>===<>Says the person who had a chance to leave it alone, but instead
>===<>initiated an attack in this thread and then hit <SEND>.
>===<>
>===<>C//


==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!
"The original frugal ponder"
~~~~ }<((((o> ~~~~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~~~~~ }<(((((o>

[Courageous]

>Your grasping at straws now spineless....how you ever come up with
>courageous is beyond me........So with your insietence to keep poking
>I assume you like to keep the noise level high, so be it....but don;t
>forget,. you were warned..........so now that you want to throw a dog
>into this crap, I consider you fair game as well..........you had your
>choice asshole!

Prior point about messages revealing more about the poster than the
target... fully made.

C//

[Roy]

Hey dweeb, when you get a dog that can stay in the game let me know, I
may have lots of time n my hands but I do not have time to play with
amatuers such as you ........

On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 08:08:30 -0700, Courageous
> wrote:

>===<>
>===<>>Your grasping at straws now spineless....how you ever come up with
>===<>>courageous is beyond me........So with your insietence to keep poking
>===<>>I assume you like to keep the noise level high, so be it....but don;t
>===<>>forget,. you were warned..........so now that you want to throw a dog
>===<>>into this crap, I consider you fair game as well..........you had your
>===<>>choice asshole!
>===<>
>===<>Prior point about messages revealing more about the poster than the
>===<>target... fully made.
>===<>
>===<>C//


==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!
"The original frugal ponder"
~~~~ }<((((o> ~~~~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~~~~~ }<(((((o>