Help from Goldfish Enthusiasts

[blove]

There is this thing that the local mall is doing for kids, they are going to
give out 100 goldfish each with a 1 gallon (give or take- medium critter
keeper ) container. This is animal cruelty. Comet goldfish need 20 gallons
per fish. Its like keeping a dog in the cabinet under the kitchen sink or a
child in a closet. What i plan on doing is making fliers on proper goldfish
care and posting them on bulletin boards in the town hall, and grocery
stores and whereever else i can and i want to present a bunch of printouts
to the lady who is running this thing. According to my manager he has told
her that goldfish need bigger before and she refuses to listen but i guess
he told me that the last event they used quart size bowls for the goldfish
they gave out to kids.

What i need help is is that im bad with words, i need help formin the letter
and fliers in To the point wording and it has to sound reasonably polite.
When i get angry (wich i am) i tend to babble and i get mean and stuff. If
ya want to call i can give the mall office number and the chick's name is
Jill. Thanks for any encouragement and help. email me


--
yahoo- lady_crotalus
aim- ReptilianChic
http://photos.yahoo.com/miss_scaryness
http://members.petfinder.org/~NJ309/pitvideo.swf

[Ionizer]

"blove" > wrote in message
...
> There is this thing that the local mall is doing for kids, they are
> going to give out 100 goldfish each with a 1 gallon (give or take-
> medium critter keeper ) container. This is animal cruelty. Comet
> goldfish need 20 gallons per fish. Its like keeping a dog in the
> cabinet under the kitchen sink or a child in a closet. What i plan on
> doing is making fliers on proper goldfish care and posting them on
> bulletin boards in the town hall, and grocery stores and whereever
> else i can and i want to present a bunch of printouts to the lady who
> is running this thing. According to my manager he has told her that
> goldfish need bigger before and she refuses to listen but i guess he
> told me that the last event they used quart size bowls for the
> goldfish they gave out to kids.
>
> What i need help is is that im bad with words, i need help formin the
> letter and fliers in To the point wording and it has to sound
> reasonably polite. When i get angry (wich i am) i tend to babble and i
> get mean and stuff. If ya want to call i can give the mall office
> number and the chick's name is Jill. Thanks for any encouragement and
> help. email me

It might be a better idea to get someone with more authority to contact
the people running this promotion and perhaps intercept and prevent it.
A search for Humane Law Enforcement Agencies around the Oneida area
generated 11 results here:
http://www.aspca.org/site/FrameSet?style=Animal

This event sounds like the aquatic equivalent of Arthur Carlson's WKRP
Thanksgiving promotion, where he threw live turkeys from a helicopter.
"As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly."

Please participate in the newsgroup thread you have started rather than
waiting for people to email you.

Good luck,
Ian.

[blove]

I check this newsgroup everyday and ill chime in when i can but lately ive
been busy but i always check my email so sometimes its easier for me to
check my email. There is no humane law enforcement here. Im in Massena new
york and there isnt anyone who will do anything like they would in new york
city or any of the other major cities. Cops will only do anything when like
someone leaves a dog in the car or something like that, not for kids getting
goldfish in things equivalent to bowls wich will be dead in couple days.

"Ionizer" > wrote in message
...
> "blove" > wrote in message
> ...
>> There is this thing that the local mall is doing for kids, they are going
>> to give out 100 goldfish each with a 1 gallon (give or take- medium
>> critter keeper ) container. This is animal cruelty. Comet goldfish need
>> 20 gallons per fish. Its like keeping a dog in the cabinet under the
>> kitchen sink or a child in a closet. What i plan on doing is making
>> fliers on proper goldfish care and posting them on bulletin boards in the
>> town hall, and grocery stores and whereever else i can and i want to
>> present a bunch of printouts to the lady who is running this thing.
>> According to my manager he has told her that goldfish need bigger before
>> and she refuses to listen but i guess he told me that the last event they
>> used quart size bowls for the goldfish they gave out to kids.
>>
>> What i need help is is that im bad with words, i need help formin the
>> letter and fliers in To the point wording and it has to sound reasonably
>> polite. When i get angry (wich i am) i tend to babble and i get mean and
>> stuff. If ya want to call i can give the mall office number and the
>> chick's name is Jill. Thanks for any encouragement and help. email me
>>
>
> It might be a better idea to get someone with more authority to contact
> the people running this promotion and perhaps intercept and prevent it. A
> search for Humane Law Enforcement Agencies around the Oneida area
> generated 11 results here: http://www.aspca.org/site/FrameSet?style=Animal
>
> This event sounds like the aquatic equivalent of Arthur Carlson's WKRP
> Thanksgiving promotion, where he threw live turkeys from a helicopter. "As
> God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly."
>
> Please participate in the newsgroup thread you have started rather than
> waiting for people to email you.
>
> Good luck,
> Ian.
>

[Elaine T]

blove wrote:
> I check this newsgroup everyday and ill chime in when i can but lately ive
> been busy but i always check my email so sometimes its easier for me to
> check my email. There is no humane law enforcement here. Im in Massena new
> york and there isnt anyone who will do anything like they would in new york
> city or any of the other major cities. Cops will only do anything when like
> someone leaves a dog in the car or something like that, not for kids getting
> goldfish in things equivalent to bowls wich will be dead in couple days.
>
I kept a goldfish and some anacharis for THREE years in a bowl as a
child. Not bad for a kid with a fishbowl and a county fair fish. My
fish was a cherished pet and had a far better life than most feeders.
Why, exactly, are you assuming that a child is incapable of humanely
keeping a goldfish in a gallon bowl?

I am aware goldfish fans say 10 or even 20 gallons to a fish and so
forth, but that's for a fully grown 8"-10" comet. A gallon of water for
a typical 1" feeder is perfectly reasonable starter housing - much
better than a quart. I quarantined a 2" shubunkin in a medium critter
keeper for a month before it went into my pond and the fish did just
fine. To continue your puppy and kitten analogy, a puppy can sleep
comfortably in a much smaller crate than a full-grown dog.

If you want to do something constructive to improve the lives of those
goldfish, do two things. First, donate some anacharis to the project so
that every kid gets a plant to go into the critter keeper. 100 sprigs
of anacharis will cost you maybe $20 at the most. The anacharis will
make a huge difference in the water quality and keep the fish from
suffering. It absorbs ammonia, oxygenates the water, and provides
surface area for bacteria to grow. If you're lucky, there will even be
fish in the tank where you buy the anacharis and it will be colonized
with nitrifying bacteria.

Second, make up 100 flyers up on goldfish care, (big water changes,
light feeding, sponge filters, plants, etc.) and on how to tell when the
goldfish has outgrown its bowl with nitrate tests. Get a local pet
store to donate 10% off coupons so the kids can buy inexpensive
air-driven filters for their fish. Make sure they know that a typical
10 gallon leader runs only $10.

That way, the kids have a chance to keep their fish alive and you've
started educating a new generation of aquarists. :-)

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[bettasngoldfish]

"Why, exactly, are you assuming that a child is incapable of humanely
keeping a goldfish in a gallon bowl?"

Because it is inhumane to keep a goldfish in a fish bowl, sorry if you
don't agree. BTW, three years for a common/feeder goldfish is not even
half of the average ten year life span.

Maria

[lgb]

In article . com>,
says...
> Because it is inhumane to keep a goldfish in a fish bowl, sorry if you
> don't agree. BTW, three years for a common/feeder goldfish is not even
> half of the average ten year life span.
>
OK, as a child I kept 2 for about 10 years in a 5 gallon tank. No
filter, just lots of water changes. They would have lived longer but my
little sister decided to feed them - with an entire box of food.

Elaine's response seemed to fit the situation excellently.

--
BNSF = Build Now, Seep Forever

[bettasngoldfish]

Common goldfish are better suited to a pond. That is if you want them
to grow to their potential and live a good long life. Why force a fish
who could grow to 12 inches and live 10-20 years in a bowl? Surely
common sense will tell you that the fish is being stunted and not being
housed properly in a bowl. The fish are the ones who lose out in the
end. I am sorry but I don't agree with giving away goldfish in a
critter keeper. Maybe they should think about using bettas as they are
much more suited to live in a bowl than a goldfish. Just my two cents!

[Rocco Moretti]

bettasngoldfish wrote:
> "Why, exactly, are you assuming that a child is incapable of humanely
> keeping a goldfish in a gallon bowl?"
>
> Because it is inhumane to keep a goldfish in a fish bowl, sorry if you
> don't agree. BTW, three years for a common/feeder goldfish is not even
> half of the average ten year life span.

One thing I like about Elaine's suggestion that's missing from other
people's take on this is constructiveness.

Imagine for a moment that you're an average, non-fish inclined parent.
You don't see anything wrong with keeping a goldfish in a completely
empty fish bowl (well, maybe we need a castle in it). Everyone on T.V.
does! (Heck, look at Elmo.) You probably did it as a kid. Besides,
you're on kid time, not goldfish time. The little sprouts likely to be
bored with it in six months. You don't know, and frankly don't care,
that it's not going to live for ten years.

Now imagine two scenarios - Vehement fish lover comes up to you telling
you you're cruel & inhumane for even thinking about putting a goldfish
in a bowl - how can you think of such a thing! - you need to install a
pond in your backyard to keep them! - Can't you see you're killing the fish!

Now, you're not an average person, but the *average* person is going to
have one thought: NUTJOB! It's a FISH. They will think about it for a
moment, have brief pangs of doubt, conclude that you're overblowing the
whole thing, possibly think you're with ALF and PETA in banning all pet
ownership, and promptly dismiss everything you have to say.

Contrast that with what Elaine is proposing. You don't rail on them for
being cruel, but instead inform them how to take better care of their
new pet. And look! It's not that expensive! 90% of the goldfish are
going to die from being overfed/neglect/being dumped on the carpet
before they reach mature size. (It's kids. These things happen. Heck,
they happen with adults too.) If you arrange with the local pet stores
to take back those that get too big and/or organize the local fish
fanciers with a goldfish rescue group for the big ones, the issue of
final size is mitigated.

It is unlikely that any jurisdiction is going to have (enforced) laws
against keeping goldfish in small bowls. So you can't employ legal
pressure to stop them. Making a big stink is only going to alienate
them. The best option is going to inform them in being a responsible pet
owner.

[bettasngoldfish]

The best option is going to inform them in being a responsible pet
owner.

Very good point : ) A hand out given with the fish and container
explaining the proper care and hopefully some of the fish have a
chance. I am just concerned that when people see a fish in a small
container they think it can remain in it for the rest of its life and
that it's okay. As for people saying it's just a fish, well sad to say
but people also do that with dogs, cats, horses, the list goes
on.....education of the public is one of the most important tools for
helping animals/fish. I guess the best place is to start with the
children : ) My parents would never let me have fish as a child so I
missed out on all this fish bowl stuff ; )

[Elaine T]

bettasngoldfish wrote:
> The best option is going to inform them in being a responsible pet
> owner.
>
> Very good point : ) A hand out given with the fish and container
> explaining the proper care and hopefully some of the fish have a
> chance. I am just concerned that when people see a fish in a small
> container they think it can remain in it for the rest of its life and
> that it's okay. As for people saying it's just a fish, well sad to say
> but people also do that with dogs, cats, horses, the list goes
> on.....education of the public is one of the most important tools for
> helping animals/fish. I guess the best place is to start with the
> children : ) My parents would never let me have fish as a child so I
> missed out on all this fish bowl stuff ; )
>
The fish bowl was fun - my parents were horrified when I came home with
three goldfish in bags from the fair. They recovered quickly and dug a
fairly large old drum fishbowl out from the depths of a cabinet. Dad
had used it to hatch killifish eggs before I took over all his free
time. :-) Dad learned to keep fish in the days of 10 gallon, metal
framed, slate bottomed tanks, and most tropicals were kept in tight
quarters too. Goldfish bowls were not at all unreasonable to him.

Two of my fair goldfish died in the first week. No surprises there. On
the weekend, Dad got me some anacharis for the bowl and put it in
indirect sun and I'm quite sure the plant is what kept the water
conditions decent for the fish. Every single weekend according to Dad's
instructions, I netted the fish out into a glass of his water, scrubbed
all the algae out of the bowl, and refilled it with fresh, dechlorinated
water. So I did a 100% water change weekly.

The fish (I've forgotten his name) grew some, but then stopped growing
as goldfish sometimes do in small housing. As I said earlier, I'm
pretty sure he lived about three years. One morning I found him dead,
and that was the end of my fishkeeping until many years later.

Nowadays, with cheap siliconed tanks, I agree that it's very reasonable
to expect people to move a growing goldfish to a 10-20 gallon tank if
they possibly can. We just have to figure out how to tell them in a
kind way so that they listen.

Oh - and you mentioned giving out bettas instead of goldies earlier. I
agree that they are better suited for still, unfiltered tanks, but what
about heat? Again, you're looking at the fish needing more for long
term health than a critter keeper. I think for a few months, a critter
keeper with some oxygenating plants suits the needs of a small goldfish
a bit better than a betta.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Elaine T]

blove wrote:
> I check this newsgroup everyday and ill chime in when i can but lately ive
> been busy but i always check my email so sometimes its easier for me to
> check my email. There is no humane law enforcement here. Im in Massena new
> york and there isnt anyone who will do anything like they would in new york
> city or any of the other major cities. Cops will only do anything when like
> someone leaves a dog in the car or something like that, not for kids getting
> goldfish in things equivalent to bowls wich will be dead in couple days.
>
> "Ionizer" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>"blove" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>>There is this thing that the local mall is doing for kids, they are going
>>>to give out 100 goldfish each with a 1 gallon (give or take- medium
>>>critter keeper ) container. This is animal cruelty. Comet goldfish need
>>>20 gallons per fish. Its like keeping a dog in the cabinet under the
>>>kitchen sink or a child in a closet. What i plan on doing is making
>>>fliers on proper goldfish care and posting them on bulletin boards in the
>>>town hall, and grocery stores and whereever else i can and i want to
>>>present a bunch of printouts to the lady who is running this thing.
>>>According to my manager he has told her that goldfish need bigger before
>>>and she refuses to listen but i guess he told me that the last event they
>>>used quart size bowls for the goldfish they gave out to kids.
>>>
>>>What i need help is is that im bad with words, i need help formin the
>>>letter and fliers in To the point wording and it has to sound reasonably
>>>polite. When i get angry (wich i am) i tend to babble and i get mean and
>>>stuff. If ya want to call i can give the mall office number and the
>>>chick's name is Jill. Thanks for any encouragement and help. email me

>>
>>It might be a better idea to get someone with more authority to contact
>>the people running this promotion and perhaps intercept and prevent it. A
>>search for Humane Law Enforcement Agencies around the Oneida area
>>generated 11 results here: http://www.aspca.org/site/FrameSet?style=Animal
>>
>>This event sounds like the aquatic equivalent of Arthur Carlson's WKRP
>>Thanksgiving promotion, where he threw live turkeys from a helicopter. "As
>>God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly."
>>
>>Please participate in the newsgroup thread you have started rather than
>>waiting for people to email you.
>>
>>Good luck,
>>Ian.
>>
>
>
>
Another thought. What if you could talk her into handing out three
white cloud minnows instead of goldfish? They'll be fine in a critter
keeper.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Gill Passman]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
...
> bettasngoldfish wrote:
> > The best option is going to inform them in being a responsible pet
> > owner.
> >
> > Very good point : ) A hand out given with the fish and container
> > explaining the proper care and hopefully some of the fish have a
> > chance. I am just concerned that when people see a fish in a small
> > container they think it can remain in it for the rest of its life and
> > that it's okay. As for people saying it's just a fish, well sad to say
> > but people also do that with dogs, cats, horses, the list goes
> > on.....education of the public is one of the most important tools for
> > helping animals/fish. I guess the best place is to start with the
> > children : ) My parents would never let me have fish as a child so I
> > missed out on all this fish bowl stuff ; )
> >
> The fish bowl was fun - my parents were horrified when I came home with
> three goldfish in bags from the fair. They recovered quickly and dug a
> fairly large old drum fishbowl out from the depths of a cabinet. Dad
> had used it to hatch killifish eggs before I took over all his free
> time. :-) Dad learned to keep fish in the days of 10 gallon, metal
> framed, slate bottomed tanks, and most tropicals were kept in tight
> quarters too. Goldfish bowls were not at all unreasonable to him.
>
> Two of my fair goldfish died in the first week. No surprises there. On
> the weekend, Dad got me some anacharis for the bowl and put it in
> indirect sun and I'm quite sure the plant is what kept the water
> conditions decent for the fish. Every single weekend according to Dad's
> instructions, I netted the fish out into a glass of his water, scrubbed
> all the algae out of the bowl, and refilled it with fresh, dechlorinated
> water. So I did a 100% water change weekly.
>
> The fish (I've forgotten his name) grew some, but then stopped growing
> as goldfish sometimes do in small housing. As I said earlier, I'm
> pretty sure he lived about three years. One morning I found him dead,
> and that was the end of my fishkeeping until many years later.
>
> Nowadays, with cheap siliconed tanks, I agree that it's very reasonable
> to expect people to move a growing goldfish to a 10-20 gallon tank if
> they possibly can. We just have to figure out how to tell them in a
> kind way so that they listen.
>
> Oh - and you mentioned giving out bettas instead of goldies earlier. I
> agree that they are better suited for still, unfiltered tanks, but what
> about heat? Again, you're looking at the fish needing more for long
> term health than a critter keeper. I think for a few months, a critter
> keeper with some oxygenating plants suits the needs of a small goldfish
> a bit better than a betta.
>
> --
> Elaine T __
> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

I am totally with Elaine here. I used to bring home bags and bags of
goldfish from the local fair (something that is now illegal over here).
Originally we kept them in bowls but somehow, I can't remember how (but I
know now), but a proper tank appeared - by this I mean a 10gall, which would
probably be frowned on now but it was one big deal better than those little
glass bowls. I found out a few weeks ago....20-30% water changes used to
happen during the day when I was at school....my mother had gone out and
researched the best care for our goldfish. Unfortunately, I kept "winning
fish" and we ended up introducing infections....but it was a lesson well
learnt.

As I grew up this early fascination coming from the original goldfish
continued. About 17 years ago I decided to try again. I'd got given a 10gall
tank and put some goldfish in (this was prior to the days of filtration
being really understood)...all went well for a year or so until I went on
holiday for two weeks and decided to try an automatic feeder (early days for
them as well) - came back to a lot of dead goldfish :-( Waited a good 8
years before my next attempt - this time a 15gall with a "proper
pump"....bought as a "christmas present" for the kids - we went through a
move and a leaking tank (if I knew what I know now it would never have gone
to the dump) but eventually lost the fish after 4 years. During this time I
decided to try a pond - but again lack of education made this go wrong - the
pond was wrongly sited with no filtration - fish lasted 2 years.

Despondent I decided to give up fish keeping, until Matthew nagged and
nagged for 2 years for a tropical tank....we gave way last summer
(unfortunately this is the one we just lost the fish from). But we now have
5 tanks up and running and healthy and plans to rebuild the lost one....

The fish that I "won" at the fair gave me the taste and a passion I've kept
revisiting....time has given me the determination and patience to learn. If
people are better educated at the start, with what is now common knowledge
but unheard of then "it was just put it in the bowl with a bit of pond
weed", then some of these fish will do well....even those that do not will
maybe instill the passion that I gained, Matt gained, and from the sound of
it Elaine gained....

And yes, in the UK this is now illegal to give fish away like this for the
reasons that you cite....giving care advice is the best thing that you can
do...

Gill