Taking a balanced aquarium one step farther *update* [OT]

[dfreas]

Hopefully some of you will remember my slightly off topic post from
back in April, if not here's the link:
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc/browse_thread/thread/e2e2e5de5358683b/10e8e330d34f56a4?q=balanced+aquarium&rnum=1&hl=en#10e8e330d34f56a4

The idea was that many of us have succesfully produced balanced aquaria
that are extremely low maintenance. I used the example of five guppies
in a heavily planted ten gallon tank. In such a situation, if
conditions are ideal, the tank has no need of a filter or water changes
or in fact any maintenance at all aside from feedings. I then went on
to suggest that this phenomenon need not be limited to aquatic
creatures only - what if I were to put together a ten gallon tank of
land plants and small land creatures (about the equivalent of five
guppies worth of land animals) would it be possible to create a
maintenance free non aquatic environment? Today, after nearly three
months of trial and error I have an answer to that question.

Yes, it is possible!

In fact it seems to be even easier than balancing an aquatic
environment if you know what you are doing. In the beginning I didn't,
and I had some huge failures in that first month but as I've gained
experience I've realised that this is an easy and cheap way to keep a
variety of interesting pets with little to no maintenance at all.
Before I go any further I'll describe what my setup looks like now.
Also if you haven't figured it out already this is going to be a long
post - if you aren't interested in the subject you may want to stop
reading now ;-)

I currently have a 10g tank with two 10 watt 6500K screw in flourescent
bulbs. Substrate was made up of about an inch of standard size white
aquarium gravel which was then covered with a layer of marine sand, on
top of that went a peat moss mixture sold at home depot labeled for
african violets and then about an inch or two of standard potting soil.
After watering the soil and letting it settle it is about four inches
deep. I have five medium sized (8 to 10 inch) plants in the tank and
just planted grass across the floor of the tank five days ago so it is
about 1.5" high now and growing rapidly.

Animals include a green anole, a green tree frog, two north american
millipedes, and a eastern forest snail. There is also a stable
population of earthworms living in the dirt.

The snail eats the live plants, but at a much slower rate than they
grow, while the millipedes stick to the dead plant matter. The anole
and tree frog both enjoy crickets which I currently have to add to the
tank about every other week. I leave "cricket total bites" scattered
around the inside of the tank for the crickets to eat and throw
anywhere between one and two dozen crickets in the tank at a time. If I
purchase the large size crickets they usually start laying eggs
immediately and about two weeks later baby crickets start hatching.
However the baby crickets seem to be prefered over adults by the frog
so they don't often last long. I think when the grass finishes growing
and they have a better chance of hiding this may change a bit and I may
eventually get a stable population of crickets at which point I could
stop feeding completely. However the combination of the frog and the
anole may just be too much of a predator load on the system so I may
never achieve a stable food source.

So what about maintenance? Well I've been amazed actually. This high
humidity environment with a high plant density seems to be able to
decompose virtually anything in under a week - sometimes in only a day!
During the first month I had a large number of plants fail because of
the unique condition of the tank (more on that later) and I watched in
amazement as plants larger then my hand went from dead to dirt in about
three to four days - completely absolutely decomposed without a trace!
Full grown dead crickets last about a day and a half. The waste
produced by the anole rarely lasts an entire day and I've never seen
any waste produced by the frog in the tank at all. When I first started
I was feeding the crickets with bran flake cereal (a dismal failure for
a variety of reasons) and I would throw an entire handfull in only to
watch it decompose into nothingness in about a day and a half - some of
that due to eating, but a large part simply turned into dirt. With the
correct setup I can virtually guarantee you will never have to clean
this sort of aquarium. However I will point out that I do spray the
aquarium with a mister two to three times a day - this isn't to clean
it but rather because the anole won't drink out of a bowl so he has to
have a steady supply of water droplets. That is the only maintenance I
have though and even that could be automated without much trouble (a
simple automated mister for this project would run about $100).

So to keep this post from getting unbarably long I'll finish up with
some pointers for other people who want to try it:

1. Stick to frogs for your main attraction. Lizards bring a host of
annoying requirements along with them, and while my anole is both
succesfull and amusing his unique requirements made the intial startup
of this project much more difficult than it needed to be. And anoles
are about the most accomadating lizard you'll find for a project like
this.

2. Plan your substrate well! You're going to be adding a fairly large
amount of water on a regular basis so that bottom layer of rocks and
sand is important to keep the ground from getting saturated.

3. Add worms, but don't go overboard. My local pet store sells worms in
packs of 25 and I made the mistake of just dumping them all in. For the
first two weeks I had worms continuously climbing up the aquarium glass
looking for a less crowded place to live - after pulling out about half
of them one by one as they attempted to escape the worm population got
down to the right spot and they stopped trying to get out.

4. Do not try to add a pool of water to the tank. I had plans to have a
small "pond" about four inches across and four inches deep made by
burying a plastic container in the substrate and filling it with water.
I intended to buy one of those ultrasonic foggers to put in the bottom
of the pool to increase humidity. I left it in for about a week before
I gave up. Over the course of that week I had crickets and worms
commiting suicide left and right and dirt and other stuff would fall in
the water and begin to rot until it smelled and looked awful. It was
the pool of death. For some stupid reason crickets love to jump into
water but lack the ability to swim. Just don't do it - you'll regret
it.

5. Pick your plants carefully! This is a high humidity environment -
most plants will rot within a week or two. Stick to ivys and other
similar plants that like lots of water.

All that said I have to say this was a lot of fun and a great success.
I absolutely recommend it as an excellent challenge to those of you
that have mastered the art of balancing a freshwater aquarium and want
something new to try out for a while.

I've learned so much doing this project that I'm sure I've left out
tons of information, if anyone has any questions I'd be very happy to
answer them. If you don't have a question then just let me know what
you think about my project - I've had a lot of fun doing this and I'd
love to talk about it, and the people over at rec.pets.herp don't care
as much about creating balanced systems as the people here seem to.

-Daniel

[Gill Passman]

"dfreas" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Hopefully some of you will remember my slightly off topic post from
> back in April, if not here's the link:
>
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc/browse_thread/thread/e2e2e5de5358683b/10e8e330d34f56a4?q=balanced+aquarium&rnum=1&hl=en#10e8e330d34f56a4
>
> The idea was that many of us have succesfully produced balanced aquaria
> that are extremely low maintenance. I used the example of five guppies
> in a heavily planted ten gallon tank. In such a situation, if
> conditions are ideal, the tank has no need of a filter or water changes
> or in fact any maintenance at all aside from feedings. I then went on
> to suggest that this phenomenon need not be limited to aquatic
> creatures only - what if I were to put together a ten gallon tank of
> land plants and small land creatures (about the equivalent of five
> guppies worth of land animals) would it be possible to create a
> maintenance free non aquatic environment? Today, after nearly three
> months of trial and error I have an answer to that question.
>
> Yes, it is possible!
>
> In fact it seems to be even easier than balancing an aquatic
> environment if you know what you are doing. In the beginning I didn't,
> and I had some huge failures in that first month but as I've gained
> experience I've realised that this is an easy and cheap way to keep a
> variety of interesting pets with little to no maintenance at all.
> Before I go any further I'll describe what my setup looks like now.
> Also if you haven't figured it out already this is going to be a long
> post - if you aren't interested in the subject you may want to stop
> reading now ;-)
>
> I currently have a 10g tank with two 10 watt 6500K screw in flourescent
> bulbs. Substrate was made up of about an inch of standard size white
> aquarium gravel which was then covered with a layer of marine sand, on
> top of that went a peat moss mixture sold at home depot labeled for
> african violets and then about an inch or two of standard potting soil.
> After watering the soil and letting it settle it is about four inches
> deep. I have five medium sized (8 to 10 inch) plants in the tank and
> just planted grass across the floor of the tank five days ago so it is
> about 1.5" high now and growing rapidly.
>
> Animals include a green anole, a green tree frog, two north american
> millipedes, and a eastern forest snail. There is also a stable
> population of earthworms living in the dirt.
>
> The snail eats the live plants, but at a much slower rate than they
> grow, while the millipedes stick to the dead plant matter. The anole
> and tree frog both enjoy crickets which I currently have to add to the
> tank about every other week. I leave "cricket total bites" scattered
> around the inside of the tank for the crickets to eat and throw
> anywhere between one and two dozen crickets in the tank at a time. If I
> purchase the large size crickets they usually start laying eggs
> immediately and about two weeks later baby crickets start hatching.
> However the baby crickets seem to be prefered over adults by the frog
> so they don't often last long. I think when the grass finishes growing
> and they have a better chance of hiding this may change a bit and I may
> eventually get a stable population of crickets at which point I could
> stop feeding completely. However the combination of the frog and the
> anole may just be too much of a predator load on the system so I may
> never achieve a stable food source.
>
> So what about maintenance? Well I've been amazed actually. This high
> humidity environment with a high plant density seems to be able to
> decompose virtually anything in under a week - sometimes in only a day!
> During the first month I had a large number of plants fail because of
> the unique condition of the tank (more on that later) and I watched in
> amazement as plants larger then my hand went from dead to dirt in about
> three to four days - completely absolutely decomposed without a trace!
> Full grown dead crickets last about a day and a half. The waste
> produced by the anole rarely lasts an entire day and I've never seen
> any waste produced by the frog in the tank at all. When I first started
> I was feeding the crickets with bran flake cereal (a dismal failure for
> a variety of reasons) and I would throw an entire handfull in only to
> watch it decompose into nothingness in about a day and a half - some of
> that due to eating, but a large part simply turned into dirt. With the
> correct setup I can virtually guarantee you will never have to clean
> this sort of aquarium. However I will point out that I do spray the
> aquarium with a mister two to three times a day - this isn't to clean
> it but rather because the anole won't drink out of a bowl so he has to
> have a steady supply of water droplets. That is the only maintenance I
> have though and even that could be automated without much trouble (a
> simple automated mister for this project would run about $100).
>
> So to keep this post from getting unbarably long I'll finish up with
> some pointers for other people who want to try it:
>
> 1. Stick to frogs for your main attraction. Lizards bring a host of
> annoying requirements along with them, and while my anole is both
> succesfull and amusing his unique requirements made the intial startup
> of this project much more difficult than it needed to be. And anoles
> are about the most accomadating lizard you'll find for a project like
> this.
>
> 2. Plan your substrate well! You're going to be adding a fairly large
> amount of water on a regular basis so that bottom layer of rocks and
> sand is important to keep the ground from getting saturated.
>
> 3. Add worms, but don't go overboard. My local pet store sells worms in
> packs of 25 and I made the mistake of just dumping them all in. For the
> first two weeks I had worms continuously climbing up the aquarium glass
> looking for a less crowded place to live - after pulling out about half
> of them one by one as they attempted to escape the worm population got
> down to the right spot and they stopped trying to get out.
>
> 4. Do not try to add a pool of water to the tank. I had plans to have a
> small "pond" about four inches across and four inches deep made by
> burying a plastic container in the substrate and filling it with water.
> I intended to buy one of those ultrasonic foggers to put in the bottom
> of the pool to increase humidity. I left it in for about a week before
> I gave up. Over the course of that week I had crickets and worms
> commiting suicide left and right and dirt and other stuff would fall in
> the water and begin to rot until it smelled and looked awful. It was
> the pool of death. For some stupid reason crickets love to jump into
> water but lack the ability to swim. Just don't do it - you'll regret
> it.
>
> 5. Pick your plants carefully! This is a high humidity environment -
> most plants will rot within a week or two. Stick to ivys and other
> similar plants that like lots of water.
>
> All that said I have to say this was a lot of fun and a great success.
> I absolutely recommend it as an excellent challenge to those of you
> that have mastered the art of balancing a freshwater aquarium and want
> something new to try out for a while.
>
> I've learned so much doing this project that I'm sure I've left out
> tons of information, if anyone has any questions I'd be very happy to
> answer them. If you don't have a question then just let me know what
> you think about my project - I've had a lot of fun doing this and I'd
> love to talk about it, and the people over at rec.pets.herp don't care
> as much about creating balanced systems as the people here seem to.
>
> -Daniel
>
Fascinating read :-)

Any pics????

Gill

[Gail Futoran]

"dfreas" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Hopefully some of you will remember my slightly off topic post from
> back in April, if not here's the link:
> http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc/browse_thread/thread/e2e2e5de5358683b/10e8e330d34f56a4?q=balanced+aquarium&rnum=1&hl=en#10e8e330d34f56a4
>
> The idea was that many of us have succesfully produced balanced aquaria
> that are extremely low maintenance. I used the example of five guppies
> in a heavily planted ten gallon tank. In such a situation, if
> conditions are ideal, the tank has no need of a filter or water changes
> or in fact any maintenance at all aside from feedings. I then went on
> to suggest that this phenomenon need not be limited to aquatic
> creatures only - what if I were to put together a ten gallon tank of
> land plants and small land creatures (about the equivalent of five
> guppies worth of land animals) would it be possible to create a
> maintenance free non aquatic environment? Today, after nearly three
> months of trial and error I have an answer to that question.
>
> Yes, it is possible!
[snip]
You know, it's hot here, and humid, and I'm stuck
indoors a lot and you've given me YET ANOTHER
WILDLIFE PROJECT to contemplate! Thanks! :-)
Seriously, that's a great description. I have printed
it out to keep for later, just in case.

Gail
Southcentral TEXAS

[Philip Lewis]

Perhaps taboo to suggest, but there is a pretty good yahoogroup,
though a little slow of late:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/homemadebiospheres


--
be safe.
flip
Ich habe keine Ahnung was das bedeutet, oder vielleicht doch?
Remove origin of the word spam from address to reply (leave "+")

[Daniel Morrow]

"dfreas" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Hopefully some of you will remember my slightly off topic post from
> back in April, if not here's the link:
>
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc/browse_threa
d/thread/e2e2e5de5358683b/10e8e330d34f56a4?q=balanced+aquarium&rnum=1&hl=en#
10e8e330d34f56a4
>
> The idea was that many of us have succesfully produced balanced aquaria
> that are extremely low maintenance. I used the example of five guppies
> in a heavily planted ten gallon tank. In such a situation, if
> conditions are ideal, the tank has no need of a filter or water changes
> or in fact any maintenance at all aside from feedings. I then went on
> to suggest that this phenomenon need not be limited to aquatic
> creatures only - what if I were to put together a ten gallon tank of
> land plants and small land creatures (about the equivalent of five
> guppies worth of land animals) would it be possible to create a
> maintenance free non aquatic environment? Today, after nearly three
> months of trial and error I have an answer to that question.
>
> Yes, it is possible!
>
> In fact it seems to be even easier than balancing an aquatic
> environment if you know what you are doing. In the beginning I didn't,
> and I had some huge failures in that first month but as I've gained
> experience I've realised that this is an easy and cheap way to keep a
> variety of interesting pets with little to no maintenance at all.
> Before I go any further I'll describe what my setup looks like now.
> Also if you haven't figured it out already this is going to be a long
> post - if you aren't interested in the subject you may want to stop
> reading now ;-)
>
> I currently have a 10g tank with two 10 watt 6500K screw in flourescent
> bulbs. Substrate was made up of about an inch of standard size white
> aquarium gravel which was then covered with a layer of marine sand, on
> top of that went a peat moss mixture sold at home depot labeled for
> african violets and then about an inch or two of standard potting soil.
> After watering the soil and letting it settle it is about four inches
> deep. I have five medium sized (8 to 10 inch) plants in the tank and
> just planted grass across the floor of the tank five days ago so it is
> about 1.5" high now and growing rapidly.
>
> Animals include a green anole, a green tree frog, two north american
> millipedes, and a eastern forest snail. There is also a stable
> population of earthworms living in the dirt.
>
> The snail eats the live plants, but at a much slower rate than they
> grow, while the millipedes stick to the dead plant matter. The anole
> and tree frog both enjoy crickets which I currently have to add to the
> tank about every other week. I leave "cricket total bites" scattered
> around the inside of the tank for the crickets to eat and throw
> anywhere between one and two dozen crickets in the tank at a time. If I
> purchase the large size crickets they usually start laying eggs
> immediately and about two weeks later baby crickets start hatching.
> However the baby crickets seem to be prefered over adults by the frog
> so they don't often last long. I think when the grass finishes growing
> and they have a better chance of hiding this may change a bit and I may
> eventually get a stable population of crickets at which point I could
> stop feeding completely. However the combination of the frog and the
> anole may just be too much of a predator load on the system so I may
> never achieve a stable food source.
>
> So what about maintenance? Well I've been amazed actually. This high
> humidity environment with a high plant density seems to be able to
> decompose virtually anything in under a week - sometimes in only a day!
> During the first month I had a large number of plants fail because of
> the unique condition of the tank (more on that later) and I watched in
> amazement as plants larger then my hand went from dead to dirt in about
> three to four days - completely absolutely decomposed without a trace!
> Full grown dead crickets last about a day and a half. The waste
> produced by the anole rarely lasts an entire day and I've never seen
> any waste produced by the frog in the tank at all. When I first started
> I was feeding the crickets with bran flake cereal (a dismal failure for
> a variety of reasons) and I would throw an entire handfull in only to
> watch it decompose into nothingness in about a day and a half - some of
> that due to eating, but a large part simply turned into dirt. With the
> correct setup I can virtually guarantee you will never have to clean
> this sort of aquarium. However I will point out that I do spray the
> aquarium with a mister two to three times a day - this isn't to clean
> it but rather because the anole won't drink out of a bowl so he has to
> have a steady supply of water droplets. That is the only maintenance I
> have though and even that could be automated without much trouble (a
> simple automated mister for this project would run about $100).
>
> So to keep this post from getting unbarably long I'll finish up with
> some pointers for other people who want to try it:
>
> 1. Stick to frogs for your main attraction. Lizards bring a host of
> annoying requirements along with them, and while my anole is both
> succesfull and amusing his unique requirements made the intial startup
> of this project much more difficult than it needed to be. And anoles
> are about the most accomadating lizard you'll find for a project like
> this.
>
> 2. Plan your substrate well! You're going to be adding a fairly large
> amount of water on a regular basis so that bottom layer of rocks and
> sand is important to keep the ground from getting saturated.
>
> 3. Add worms, but don't go overboard. My local pet store sells worms in
> packs of 25 and I made the mistake of just dumping them all in. For the
> first two weeks I had worms continuously climbing up the aquarium glass
> looking for a less crowded place to live - after pulling out about half
> of them one by one as they attempted to escape the worm population got
> down to the right spot and they stopped trying to get out.
>
> 4. Do not try to add a pool of water to the tank. I had plans to have a
> small "pond" about four inches across and four inches deep made by
> burying a plastic container in the substrate and filling it with water.
> I intended to buy one of those ultrasonic foggers to put in the bottom
> of the pool to increase humidity. I left it in for about a week before
> I gave up. Over the course of that week I had crickets and worms
> commiting suicide left and right and dirt and other stuff would fall in
> the water and begin to rot until it smelled and looked awful. It was
> the pool of death. For some stupid reason crickets love to jump into
> water but lack the ability to swim. Just don't do it - you'll regret
> it.
>
> 5. Pick your plants carefully! This is a high humidity environment -
> most plants will rot within a week or two. Stick to ivys and other
> similar plants that like lots of water.
>
> All that said I have to say this was a lot of fun and a great success.
> I absolutely recommend it as an excellent challenge to those of you
> that have mastered the art of balancing a freshwater aquarium and want
> something new to try out for a while.
>
> I've learned so much doing this project that I'm sure I've left out
> tons of information, if anyone has any questions I'd be very happy to
> answer them. If you don't have a question then just let me know what
> you think about my project - I've had a lot of fun doing this and I'd
> love to talk about it, and the people over at rec.pets.herp

I've read that major trolling in rec.pets.herp drove off a lot of good
people from that newsgroup and all that's left from the abuse are abused
people that are just plain angry all of the time. I hope that never happens
here or in any good groups ever. By the way - excellent work with your
balanced system, thanks, a wonderful read. Later!

don't care
> as much about creating balanced systems as the people here seem to.
>
> -Daniel
>

[Alpha]

>Fascinating read :-)
>
> Any pics????
>
> Gill
>
>

There is NOTHING more inconsiderate that two lines at the end of hundreds.

[Alpha]

Learn to edit the original text!

[dfreas]

Well no pics yet - I was intending to go and take some after I read
your post but then I realized my SO has gone out of state to go try on
wedding dresses with her mother and has taken the camera with her. So
pictures may not happen for a while.

-Daniel

[NetMax]

"Alpha" > wrote in message
...
>
>>Fascinating read :-)
>>
>> Any pics????
>>
>> Gill
>>
>>
>
> There is NOTHING more inconsiderate that two lines at the end of
> hundreds.


Actually I think you just proved yourself wrong.


Gill, for the general purpose of reducing upload times and storage
requirements, you can <snip> the particulars of the post you are
responding to, and delete the rest.

cheers :o)
--
www.NetMax.tk

[lgb]

In article >,
says...
> > There is NOTHING more inconsiderate that two lines at the end of
> > hundreds.
>
> Actually I think you just proved yourself wrong.
>
I think I'd have to go with Alpha on this one.

Back on the subject, I have trouble envisioning a "balanced" population,
especially of earthworms. Don't they breed?

--
BNSF = Build Now, Seep Forever

[NetMax]

"lgb" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> says...
>> > There is NOTHING more inconsiderate that two lines at the end of
>> > hundreds.
>>
>> Actually I think you just proved yourself wrong.
>>
> I think I'd have to go with Alpha on this one.
>
> Back on the subject, I have trouble envisioning a "balanced"
> population,
> especially of earthworms. Don't they breed?
>
> --
> BNSF = Build Now, Seep Forever

Perhaps the word 'annoying' would be more appropriate, as 'inconsiderate'
implies someone *purposely* doing something to annoy others.

imo, the newsgroup is a better environment when we are less judgemental,
give others the benefit of the doubt, and share our knowledge through
suggestions (whether aquaria or netiquette related). That's what I've
found works for me, ymmv.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Alpha]

That is why I top posted the response to the thread you refer to.

[Gill Passman]

"Alpha" > wrote in message
...
> That is why I top posted the response to the thread you refer to.
>
>
>

[Gill Passman]

"Alpha" > wrote in message
...
> That is why I top posted the response to the thread you refer to.
>
>
>
I followed this post and contributed early on....I see no problem whatsoever
in making the post that I did - I am full of amazement for everything that
Daniel has done and achieved with this. I have no follow up questions, this
is not something I intend doing myself....

FME in this newsgroup there has never been a problem with appreciating
somebody elses achievements and I hope that Daniel was not offended by my
post...

[NetMax]

"dfreas" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Well that's the point actually - they do breed. But just as in the wild
> they breed until the population outstrips the available resources and
> then they either stop breeding or begin to die so the total population
> of earthworms stays at a fairly continuous level despite the fact that
> they are continuously being born and dying. The same thing will happen
> in a tank full of guppies - they breed until they are completely
> consuming the available resources and then they begin to die off and
> eventually the population will stablize. In my experience that point is
> somewhere between one and two dozen guppies in a ten gallon tank with
> no other predators. I'm not sure what it is for worms since they are
> all underground and I only see them when they happen to dig their way
> to the edge of the tank where the glass is.
>
> -Daniel


I've never encountered this 'equilibrium' where the population pressure
or environment causes the birthrate to decrease or stabilize. Generally
(with fish), the operating margins (available O2, nitrogen levels etc)
decrease as the population increases, and then at some point there is a
crash (pH, or O2 on a hot day, or ammonia when the filter is serviced
etc). The crash then triggers a stress condition which weakens most of
the fish, and if there are any contagions (ie: Ich), then there is a
epidemic in the close quarters. This has just been my limited
experience, as I seem to often be intercepting the crash scenario from
over-breeding. The only tanks which control their populations are where
predation is the control factor (ie: mixed species mbuna tanks). I
currently have a 40g which is exploding with Julies, and they show no
sign of slowing down. However I am not reducing their food supply, as I
normally increase the food & filtration according to demand. I've also
seen large Guppy tanks exploding with fish in cases where the owner kept
up with demands. I've never tried reducing the food supply as a control
method as I'll admit that I don't feed very much to start with, so I
would be afraid to injure them.

I imagine that earthworm cultures are not comparable to fish though ;~).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[dfreas]

Well that's the point actually - they do breed. But just as in the wild
they breed until the population outstrips the available resources and
then they either stop breeding or begin to die so the total population
of earthworms stays at a fairly continuous level despite the fact that
they are continuously being born and dying. The same thing will happen
in a tank full of guppies - they breed until they are completely
consuming the available resources and then they begin to die off and
eventually the population will stablize. In my experience that point is
somewhere between one and two dozen guppies in a ten gallon tank with
no other predators. I'm not sure what it is for worms since they are
all underground and I only see them when they happen to dig their way
to the edge of the tank where the glass is.

-Daniel

[lgb]

In article . com>,
says...
> Well that's the point actually - they do breed. But just as in the wild
> they breed until the population outstrips the available resources and
> then they either stop breeding or begin to die
>

I was more concerned that one species would compete with another until
the victor had all the resources and the loser died out. Guess you'll
have to wait a while to see if that happens.

--
BNSF = Build Now, Seep Forever

[pausto]

Alpha wrote:
>
> Learn to edit the original text!

You need another tank :) ...or three.

[dfreas]

That would be why I researched the creatures before I added them to the
tank. The worms don't compete with any other species - the only other
species that has any overlap in resource consumption is the millipede
which eats dead leaves - but the rate of growth and death of the plants
is greatly accelerated in this environment so there is plenty to go
around. For the worms space is a limiting factor much more so than food
and they do not compete for space with any other species but
themselves.

Regarding the other creatures there is virtually no overlap in resource
consumption except in the case of the frog and lizard which both
consume crickets - however I am manually adding the crickets anyway so
that will never be a serious problem. There is far more than enough
space to go around for all of the inhabitants, and plenty of light and
water as well so resources are in no way a limiting factor. The only
real limit on the frog/lizard/snail populations is the fact that I have
only one of each - they don't breed! (land snails aren't nearly as
prolific as their freshwater counterparts - one snail does not an
infestation make.)

So no, one species won't out compete another. Just like we don't add
schools of zebra danios to fancy goldfish tanks the same care shouild
be taken when choosing the inhabitants of a land based aquarium. Don't
put competitors in the same tank unless there is plenty of food and
space to go around. For instance every time I have gone to the pet
store I have admired how beautiful a few of their smaller snakes that
would fit in my 10g are, however I would be willing to bet that my tree
frog would not agree with that assessment - so the snake stays at the
petstore.

-Daniel

[dfreas]

Well I would guess it has a lot to do with how you have your tank set
up. For one thing O2, pH, and ammonia *cannot* be the population
controls else as you suggest there will simply be a population crash at
the breaking point and everything will die. So if you want to observe
this then you have to have a heavily planted aquarium to begin with. A
heavily planted system will consume all of the ammonia and produce
plenty of O2. pH crashes shouldn't be a problem as long as you aren't
pumping in CO2 - which I absolutely don't suggest if you are trying to
produce a stable population of anything.

With guppies in a well planted aquarium you should see an initial
population spike and then when the population hits around 25 or so
guppies you'll notice that they eat almost all of the baby guppies.
Things will go on like this for several months until slowly adult
guppies start dying off from aggressive mating chases, fights, and
whatever else. Eventually when the population gets down to around half
a dozen guppies (which could take as long as a year) you'll notice that
the adult guppies are no longer able to eat the babies faster than the
babies grow. At this point maybe one or two babies per batch will reach
adulthood until the population comes back up to between one and two
dozen again. Lather, rinse, repeat.

I have not experimented a lot with other fish but I'm fairly confident
that with a little effort just about anyone who can sucessfully grow a
planted aquarium can establish a stable guppy population with this
method. Of course you have to ask yourself if it's worth the trouble -
they're just guppies. After a while I got tired of it and threw in a
tiger barb that was the last of a school of tiger barbs I had tried to
add to a cichlid tank (whoops!) - he quickly dispatched all but the
largest guppies and was able to eat all of the babies pretty much the
day they were born. Thus ended my guppy hobby.

-Daniel

[lgb]

In article . com>,
says...
> he only
> real limit on the frog/lizard/snail populations is the fact that I have
> only one of each - they don't breed! (land snails aren't nearly as
> prolific as their freshwater counterparts - one snail does not an
> infestation make.)
>
I thought that, at least in most species, one snail could breed?

--
BNSF = Build Now, Seep Forever

[bassett]

Try "Aus Legal" they have to see blood, before they let you post.
bassett

"teri" > wrote in message
...
>
>>imo, the newsgroup is a better environment when we are less judgemental,
>>give others the benefit of the doubt, and share our knowledge through
>>suggestions (whether aquaria or netiquette related). That's what I've
>>found works for me, ymmv.
> Ever been over in the cat newsgroup?? Man, blood is drawn on a
> routine basis there. Ugly I tell you, UuuUgly.
> teri