phosphate woes

[Scott Far Thunder]

Hau kolas..

I've been battling black beard and hair algae in a 29 gallon planted tank for some time now..and basically losing. I've tried to find fish to control it.. a. splendens, pl*co, CAE all basically ignored it; I've recently added some SAE that at least nibble on it. I've removed affected leaves and plants. I've been unable to find a phosphate test locally, got one through mail-order the other day and the readings from it are off the chart. the test goes from 0 -10 ppm. so, I'm thinking the aquarium must be out of balance to have accumulated such a high level of phosphate and thus the algae. A couple questions..what is the best way to minimize/eliminate/manage the high level of phosphates now; i.e. add more plants (are there certain types which utilize phosphate more readily than others?), chemical media (I'm looking at phosban, any feedback?), something else, or a combination? And hand-in-hand with that, the "best" way to manage for phosphate over the long run? Is there some other nutrient that should be added to enhance phosphate uptake? No CO2, seachem flourish excel instead; trace elements once a week. kH 6 gh 9 pH 7.0 0 ammonia 0 nitrite 5-10ppm nitrates (tap water reads 5 ppm) 65-watt CF lighting 10 hours/day. Tank currently has approx. 20" of fish-load, and an infestation of MTS (I've pulled about 500 out of there over the last 8-9 weeks). Live plants are mixture of root and stem plants medium density. tap water reads approx 0.5ppm phosphate; feeding tetramin pro tropical crisps (analysis chart says 1.1% minimum phosphorous - is this high?) twice daily, fish consume immediately. any suggestions as to what I can do/should do and/or where I've gone wrong greatly appreciated. TIA

lila pilamaya
--
**FREE LEONARD PELTIER NOW**

[Cheryl Rogers]

Are you adding any chemicals to lower pH? What is the phospate reading
on your tap water?

Cheryl



Scott Far Thunder wrote:
> Hau kolas..
>
> I've been battling black beard and hair algae in a 29 gallon planted
> tank for some time now..and basically losing. I've tried to find fish to
> control it.. a. splendens, pl*co, CAE all basically ignored it; I've
> recently added some SAE that at least nibble on it. I've removed
> affected leaves and plants. I've been unable to find a phosphate test
> locally, got one through mail-order the other day and the readings from
> it are off the chart. the test goes from 0 -10 ppm. so, I'm thinking the
> aquarium must be out of balance to have accumulated such a high level of
> phosphate and thus the algae. A couple questions..what is the best way
> to minimize/eliminate/manage the high level of phosphates now; i.e. add
> more plants (are there certain types which utilize phosphate more
> readily than others?), chemical media (I'm looking at phosban, any
> feedback?), something else, or a combination? And hand-in-hand with
> that, the "best" way to manage for phosphate over the long run? Is there
> some other nutrient that should be added to enhance phosphate uptake? No
> CO2, seachem flourish excel instead; trace elements once a week. kH 6 gh
> 9 pH 7.0 0 ammonia 0 nitrite 5-10ppm nitrates (tap water reads 5 ppm)
> 65-watt CF lighting 10 hours/day. Tank currently has approx. 20" of
> fish-load, and an infestation of MTS (I've pulled about 500 out of there
> over the last 8-9 weeks). Live plants are mixture of root and stem
> plants medium density. tap water reads approx 0.5ppm phosphate; feeding
> tetramin pro tropical crisps (analysis chart says 1.1% minimum
> phosphorous - is this high?) twice daily, fish consume immediately. any
> suggestions as to what I can do/should do and/or where I've gone wrong
> greatly appreciated. TIA
>
> lila pilamaya
> --
> **FREE LEONARD PELTIER NOW**

[Scott Far Thunder]

"Cheryl Rogers" > wrote in message
...
> Are you adding any chemicals to lower pH? What is the phospate reading on
> your tap water?
>
> Cheryl
>

No, actually using non-phosphate alkaline buffer to keep at 7.0; water tends
to be acidic at about 6.4-6.5 . Forgot to mention that earlier, was actually
coming back to add that info. The phosphate reading out of tap is 0.5ppm.
TIA

[George Pontis]

In article >, says...
>
> "Cheryl Rogers" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Are you adding any chemicals to lower pH? What is the phospate reading on
> > your tap water?
> >
> > Cheryl
> >
>
> No, actually using non-phosphate alkaline buffer to keep at 7.0; water tends
> to be acidic at about 6.4-6.5 . Forgot to mention that earlier, was actually
> coming back to add that info. The phosphate reading out of tap is 0.5ppm.
> TIA

There are many non-phosphate chemicals to raise pH, such as baking soda. But I
have not seen a pH 7.0 buffer for an aquarium that is _not_ phosphate based. I
suggest that you test some of your buffered fill water with the phosphate test kit
to rule that out.

[Scott Far Thunder]

"George Pontis" > wrote in message
t...
> In article >, says...
>> > Are you adding any chemicals to lower pH? What is the phospate reading
>> > on
>> > your tap water?
>> >
>> > Cheryl
>> No, actually using non-phosphate alkaline buffer to keep at 7.0; water
>> tends
>> to be acidic at about 6.4-6.5 . Forgot to mention that earlier, was
>> actually
>> coming back to add that info. The phosphate reading out of tap is
>> 0.5ppm.
>> TIA
>
> There are many non-phosphate chemicals to raise pH, such as baking soda.
> But I
> have not seen a pH 7.0 buffer for an aquarium that is _not_ phosphate
> based. I
> suggest that you test some of your buffered fill water with the phosphate
> test kit
> to rule that out.

Hmmm perhaps a clarification..I'm not using a commercial "pH 7.0" buffer;
the buffer in question is seachem alkaline buffer; it states it will
preferentially buffer at 7.8. This is greater than my needs. You can either
add the quantity directed (1 tsp/10 gallons) to get there, or add directed
dosage and then counteract with acid buffer at directed dosage to get your
desired ph. I've found that a dosage smaller than recommended also allows
you to "customize" your pH w/o putting acid back into the system. The
reason for me to use this is my tap water has basically zero buffering; it
reads kH 1 and my pH was a roller coaster. Hence, the benefit to me is not
directly the pH but rather the ability to maintain it at a level which
allows some diversity with what I do with the tank, fish and plant-wise.
I've found that a stable but buffered 7-7.2 serves better than an unstable
but "natural" 6.4-6.6 (has/will crash to abut 6.0 once the buffer is
consumed).

However, I did consider the point of is the buffer REALLY phosphate-"free"?
Tap water reads 0.5ppm; I used 2 gallons and added 1/4 tsp buffer (roughly
the same ratio as what I'm really using going into the tank) and got results
of 1.0 ppm phosphate. I guess I don't know what tolerance is allowed for
something to claim to be "non-phosphate", but it seems the buffer DOES add
phosphate, which if it accumulated, weekly water changes could lead to my
current situation of phosphate of 10+ ppm.

So, you may have found my culprit. I'll change buffers to baking soda (any
'additives' to avoid??) and see what effect this has on this tank.I'll also
see if I can find some phosphate-adsorbing media to try and lower the
existing phosphate along with aggressive water changes. Anything else I can
do to increase existing uptake by plants of the phosphate currently in the
water? TIA

lila pilamaya

[[email protected]]

Scott,

Just do a couple of large water changes, that will remove the PO4
buffer.

Now........the algae etc, these are CO2 issues.
If you want a specific pH, use CO2 to do that, otherwise, do not add
any buffer other than baking soda to get the KH to about 3 or so, most
all brands are fine.
If the tap is 3 degrees or higher, you don't need to add any baking
soda.

PO4 of 1-2ppm is ideal for CO2 enriched plant tanks.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[George Pontis]

In article >, says...

>
> However, I did consider the point of is the buffer REALLY phosphate-"free"?
> Tap water reads 0.5ppm; I used 2 gallons and added 1/4 tsp buffer (roughly
> the same ratio as what I'm really using going into the tank) and got results
> of 1.0 ppm phosphate. I guess I don't know what tolerance is allowed for
> something to claim to be "non-phosphate", but it seems the buffer DOES add
> phosphate, which if it accumulated, weekly water changes could lead to my
> current situation of phosphate of 10+ ppm.
>
> So, you may have found my culprit. I'll change buffers to baking soda (any
> 'additives' to avoid??) and see what effect this has on this tank.I'll also
> see if I can find some phosphate-adsorbing media to try and lower the
> existing phosphate along with aggressive water changes. Anything else I can
> do to increase existing uptake by plants of the phosphate currently in the
> water? TIA
>
> lila pilamaya

Lila, you have an authoritative response on adjusting pH and KH from the master of
planted aquaria, Tom Barr, and there's nothing more I could add in the way of
advice. In terms of the chemistry, if your buffer was in any way based on
phosphates you would have been off the scale, not just 1.0 ppm. If your
measurement was without error you would have determined that the buffer added 0.5
ppm phosphate. That's reasonable for a chemical additive of this grade. I don't
see how it could accumulate and lead to the 10 ppm reading, so the culprit remains
to be determined.

George

[Xinxin Shao]

I am trying to remove phosphate too. Currently, I am using phos-x. After 1 week, I still got 1ppm phosphate.:( Are there anyone that can recommend a good phosphate remover without damage the plant and fish? BTW, you can buy phosphate test kit to test phosphate. It should be much cheaper than mail order test.
"Scott Far Thunder" > wrote in message ...
Hau kolas..

I've been battling black beard and hair algae in a 29 gallon planted tank for some time now..and basically losing. I've tried to find fish to control it.. a. splendens, pl*co, CAE all basically ignored it; I've recently added some SAE that at least nibble on it. I've removed affected leaves and plants. I've been unable to find a phosphate test locally, got one through mail-order the other day and the readings from it are off the chart. the test goes from 0 -10 ppm. so, I'm thinking the aquarium must be out of balance to have accumulated such a high level of phosphate and thus the algae. A couple questions..what is the best way to minimize/eliminate/manage the high level of phosphates now; i.e. add more plants (are there certain types which utilize phosphate more readily than others?), chemical media (I'm looking at phosban, any feedback?), something else, or a combination? And hand-in-hand with that, the "best" way to manage for phosphate over the long run? Is there some other nutrient that should be added to enhance phosphate uptake? No CO2, seachem flourish excel instead; trace elements once a week. kH 6 gh 9 pH 7.0 0 ammonia 0 nitrite 5-10ppm nitrates (tap water reads 5 ppm) 65-watt CF lighting 10 hours/day. Tank currently has approx. 20" of fish-load, and an infestation of MTS (I've pulled about 500 out of there over the last 8-9 weeks). Live plants are mixture of root and stem plants medium density. tap water reads approx 0.5ppm phosphate; feeding tetramin pro tropical crisps (analysis chart says 1.1% minimum phosphorous - is this high?) twice daily, fish consume immediately. any suggestions as to what I can do/should do and/or where I've gone wrong greatly appreciated. TIA

lila pilamaya
--
**FREE LEONARD PELTIER NOW**

[NCG]

Scott Far Thunder Wrote:
> "George Pontis" wrote in message
> t...-
> In article ,
> says...--
> Are you adding any chemicals to lower pH? What is the phospate
> reading
> on
> your tap water?
>
> Cheryl-
> No, actually using non-phosphate alkaline buffer to keep at 7.0;
> water
> tends
> to be acidic at about 6.4-6.5 . Forgot to mention that earlier, was
> actually
> coming back to add that info. The phosphate reading out of tap is
> 0.5ppm.
> TIA-
>
> There are many non-phosphate chemicals to raise pH, such as baking
> soda.
> But I
> have not seen a pH 7.0 buffer for an aquarium that is _not_ phosphate
> based. I
> suggest that you test some of your buffered fill water with the
> phosphate
> test kit
> to rule that out.-
>
> Hmmm perhaps a clarification..I'm not using a commercial "pH 7.0"
> buffer;
> the buffer in question is seachem alkaline buffer; it states it will
> preferentially buffer at 7.8. This is greater than my needs. You can
> either
> add the quantity directed (1 tsp/10 gallons) to get there, or add
> directed
> dosage and then counteract with acid buffer at directed dosage to get
> your
> desired ph. I've found that a dosage smaller than recommended also
> allows
> you to "customize" your pH w/o putting acid back into the system. The
> reason for me to use this is my tap water has basically zero buffering;
> it
> reads kH 1 and my pH was a roller coaster. Hence, the benefit to me is
> not
> directly the pH but rather the ability to maintain it at a level which
> allows some diversity with what I do with the tank, fish and
> plant-wise.
> I've found that a stable but buffered 7-7.2 serves better than an
> unstable
> but "natural" 6.4-6.6 (has/will crash to abut 6.0 once the buffer is
> consumed).
>
> However, I did consider the point of is the buffer REALLY
> phosphate-"free"?
> Tap water reads 0.5ppm; I used 2 gallons and added 1/4 tsp buffer
> (roughly
> the same ratio as what I'm really using going into the tank) and got
> results
> of 1.0 ppm phosphate. I guess I don't know what tolerance is allowed
> for
> something to claim to be "non-phosphate", but it seems the buffer DOES
> add
> phosphate, which if it accumulated, weekly water changes could lead to
> my
> current situation of phosphate of 10+ ppm.
>
> So, you may have found my culprit. I'll change buffers to baking soda
> (any
> 'additives' to avoid??) and see what effect this has on this tank.I'll
> also
> see if I can find some phosphate-adsorbing media to try and lower the
> existing phosphate along with aggressive water changes. Anything else I
> can
> do to increase existing uptake by plants of the phosphate currently in
> the
> water? TIA
>
> lila pilamaya

Seachem's Alkline Buffer is phosphate free, although baking soda is
much cheaper. In any case, your problem is not the phosphate. You
will have to look elsewhere for answers.


--
NCG

[Rocco Moretti]

Xinxin Shao wrote:
>
> I am trying to remove phosphate too. Currently, I am using phos-x. After
> 1 week, I still got 1ppm phosphate.:( Are there anyone that can
> recommend a good phosphate remover without damage the plant and fish?

Plants themselves need phosphate. In this same thread Tom Barr
recommends 1-2 ppm phosphate. The trick is to have balance in the
nutrient levels. Read Tom's stuff or also read about the Redfield ratio:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~buddendo/aquarium/redfield_eng.htm

Fast growing floating plants should suck up phophate and help keep the
level low.

[Neil Woodman]

Scott Far Thunder wrote:
> Hau kolas..
>
> I've been battling black beard and hair algae in a 29 gallon planted
> tank for some time now..and basically losing. I've tried to find fish to
> control it.. a. splendens, pl*co, CAE all basically ignored it; I've
> recently added some SAE that at least nibble on it. I've removed
> affected leaves and plants. I've been unable to find a phosphate test
> locally, got one through mail-order the other day and the readings from
> it are off the chart. the test goes from 0 -10 ppm. so, I'm thinking the
> aquarium must be out of balance to have accumulated such a high level of
> phosphate and thus the algae. A couple questions..what is the best way
> to minimize/eliminate/manage the high level of phosphates now; i.e. add
> more plants (are there certain types which utilize phosphate more
> readily than others?), chemical media (I'm looking at phosban, any
> feedback?), something else, or a combination? And hand-in-hand with
> that, the "best" way to manage for phosphate over the long run? Is there
> some other nutrient that should be added to enhance phosphate uptake? No
> CO2, seachem flourish excel instead; trace elements once a week. kH 6 gh
> 9 pH 7.0 0 ammonia 0 nitrite 5-10ppm nitrates (tap water reads 5 ppm)
> 65-watt CF lighting 10 hours/day. Tank currently has approx. 20" of
> fish-load, and an infestation of MTS (I've pulled about 500 out of there
> over the last 8-9 weeks). Live plants are mixture of root and stem
> plants medium density. tap water reads approx 0.5ppm phosphate; feeding
> tetramin pro tropical crisps (analysis chart says 1.1% minimum
> phosphorous - is this high?) twice daily, fish consume immediately. any
> suggestions as to what I can do/should do and/or where I've gone wrong
> greatly appreciated. TIA
>
> lila pilamaya
> --
> **FREE LEONARD PELTIER NOW**
you do have a reply from Mr Barr there, so not much I can add but a
great phosphate remover is Rowaphos. Just keep it in the filter.

I would check the level of phosphate in your tapwater too. You can bring
it down using RO'd water, I tend to use a phosphate remover but because
the PO4 in my tapwater is so high it seems to keep a adequate level of
PO4 in the tank so again its about balance.

[kimccolling]

There are many non-phosphorus chemicals, increased pH values, such as baking soda. I not seen aquarium pH 7.0 buffer is not _ _ phosphate base. I
Some recommend that you test your phosphate buffer full of water test kit exclude this.