Starting all over :-(

[Connie]

As some of you may remember from previous posts, about 4 months ago, I
decided to set up my fish tank. After previous success with a fishless
cycle, I did it again. Once my ammonia dropped, I added my fish. A black
ghost, 4 tiger barbs, 2 mollies, a cory and a pleco (I have a 29 gal tank).
Well, even thought the cycle had completed, I began cycling all over again.
I guess I did not have enough bacteria.

Because I was not getting anywhere, I had purchased a new filter, and twice
went to my LFS and got some seeded filter media. Still, I never produced any
nitrites or ates in 4 weeks. I became very discouraged. My ghost gave a
valiant fight. He lasted though all the other fish died. He finally gave in
last week :-(

When he died, my ghost was covered with a white film... as was everything in
my tank. Any ideas?

Any how, reluctantly, I am giving it one more try. I bought a new compact
lighting, hooked up my CO2, bought 30 plants, and added water to my tank.
Already it is reading 3 ppms of ammonia, and I haven't added any fish????

This time I am giving a fish cycle a try. I will buy a couple of danios, and
hope for the best. I have no idea what went wrong. I know it didn't grow
enough bacteria the first time, but after 4 weeks with a new filter, and
seeded media why did I not see any bacteria then. UGH, I had no problems
with my first tank..

Oh well.... here goes nothing...

[Connie]

"Connie" > wrote in message
...
> As some of you may remember from previous posts, about 4 months ago, I
> decided to set up my fish tank. After previous success with a fishless
> cycle, I did it again. Once my ammonia dropped, I added my fish.


I wanted to comment, I did wait until after I developed nitrates, and my
nitrites and ammonia were 0.

> A black ghost, 4 tiger barbs, 2 mollies, a cory and a pleco (I have a 29
> gal tank). Well, even thought the cycle had completed, I began cycling all
> over again. I guess I did not have enough bacteria.
>
> Because I was not getting anywhere, I had purchased a new filter, and
> twice went to my LFS and got some seeded filter media. Still, I never
> produced any nitrites or ates in 4 weeks. I became very discouraged. My
> ghost gave a valiant fight. He lasted though all the other fish died. He
> finally gave in last week :-(
>
> When he died, my ghost was covered with a white film... as was everything
> in my tank. Any ideas?
>
> Any how, reluctantly, I am giving it one more try. I bought a new compact
> lighting, hooked up my CO2, bought 30 plants, and added water to my tank.
> Already it is reading 3 ppms of ammonia, and I haven't added any fish????
>
> This time I am giving a fish cycle a try. I will buy a couple of danios,
> and hope for the best. I have no idea what went wrong. I know it didn't
> grow enough bacteria the first time, but after 4 weeks with a new filter,
> and seeded media why did I not see any bacteria then. UGH, I had no
> problems with my first tank..
>
> Oh well.... here goes nothing...
>

[NetMax]

"Connie" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Connie" > wrote in message
> ...
>> As some of you may remember from previous posts, about 4 months ago, I
>> decided to set up my fish tank. After previous success with a fishless
>> cycle, I did it again. Once my ammonia dropped, I added my fish.
>
>
> I wanted to comment, I did wait until after I developed nitrates, and
> my nitrites and ammonia were 0.
>
>> A black ghost, 4 tiger barbs, 2 mollies, a cory and a pleco (I have a
>> 29 gal tank). Well, even thought the cycle had completed, I began
>> cycling all over again. I guess I did not have enough bacteria.
>>
>> Because I was not getting anywhere, I had purchased a new filter, and
>> twice went to my LFS and got some seeded filter media. Still, I never
>> produced any nitrites or ates in 4 weeks. I became very discouraged.
>> My ghost gave a valiant fight. He lasted though all the other fish
>> died. He finally gave in last week :-(
>>
>> When he died, my ghost was covered with a white film... as was
>> everything in my tank. Any ideas?
>>
>> Any how, reluctantly, I am giving it one more try. I bought a new
>> compact lighting, hooked up my CO2, bought 30 plants, and added water
>> to my tank. Already it is reading 3 ppms of ammonia, and I haven't
>> added any fish????
>>
>> This time I am giving a fish cycle a try. I will buy a couple of
>> danios, and hope for the best. I have no idea what went wrong. I know
>> it didn't grow enough bacteria the first time, but after 4 weeks with
>> a new filter, and seeded media why did I not see any bacteria then.
>> UGH, I had no problems with my first tank..
>>
>> Oh well.... here goes nothing...


I can't explain what you are seeing, especially the ammonia after adding
plants (unless you took away the filter and have a lot of organic matter
rotting?).

Occasionally (rarely) I hear about a tank not starting properly. Perhaps
there were some conditions which made it harder to seed with bacteria.
Using lots of carbon filtration might change your situation (or perhaps
it was a water condition which doesn't exist anymore, such as when
municipalities triple-dose chlorine during changes to water system). In
any case, a high plant to fish ratio will help address anything funky in
the water.

Is it possible that some contagion caused your false start?

I hope this one goes flawlessly.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Connie]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
> "Connie" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Connie" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> As some of you may remember from previous posts, about 4 months ago, I
>>> decided to set up my fish tank. After previous success with a fishless
>>> cycle, I did it again. Once my ammonia dropped, I added my fish.
>>
>>
>> I wanted to comment, I did wait until after I developed nitrates, and my
>> nitrites and ammonia were 0.
>>
>>> A black ghost, 4 tiger barbs, 2 mollies, a cory and a pleco (I have a 29
>>> gal tank). Well, even thought the cycle had completed, I began cycling
>>> all over again. I guess I did not have enough bacteria.
>>>
>>> Because I was not getting anywhere, I had purchased a new filter, and
>>> twice went to my LFS and got some seeded filter media. Still, I never
>>> produced any nitrites or ates in 4 weeks. I became very discouraged. My
>>> ghost gave a valiant fight. He lasted though all the other fish died. He
>>> finally gave in last week :-(
>>>
>>> When he died, my ghost was covered with a white film... as was
>>> everything in my tank. Any ideas?
>>>
>>> Any how, reluctantly, I am giving it one more try. I bought a new
>>> compact lighting, hooked up my CO2, bought 30 plants, and added water to
>>> my tank. Already it is reading 3 ppms of ammonia, and I haven't added
>>> any fish????
>>>
>>> This time I am giving a fish cycle a try. I will buy a couple of danios,
>>> and hope for the best. I have no idea what went wrong. I know it didn't
>>> grow enough bacteria the first time, but after 4 weeks with a new
>>> filter, and seeded media why did I not see any bacteria then. UGH, I had
>>> no problems with my first tank..
>>>
>>> Oh well.... here goes nothing...
>

Hi, thanks for replying.
>
> I can't explain what you are seeing, especially the ammonia after adding
> plants (unless you took away the filter and have a lot of organic matter
> rotting?).

My husband cleaned out the tank completely about 3 days ago. We then added
water today, and added the plants. It was reading about a 1-2 ppm right
after we added the water, and then rose to about 4 ppm. I assume there was
still residual fish food and stuff rotting, and producing the ammonia in the
gravel, and adding the water distributed it??

>
> Occasionally (rarely) I hear about a tank not starting properly. Perhaps
> there were some conditions which made it harder to seed with bacteria.
> Using lots of carbon filtration might change your situation (or perhaps it
> was a water condition which doesn't exist anymore, such as when
> municipalities triple-dose chlorine during changes to water system). In
> any case, a high plant to fish ratio will help address anything funky in
> the water.
>
> Is it possible that some contagion caused your false start?

I don't this so. It took it about 5 weeks to cycle, I added enough ammonia
to raise it to about 8 ppm. Then left it cycle. The nitrates only rose to
about 5 ppm total though. After adding the fish and getting a mini cycle
(which actually, after about 5 days, the nitrates disappeared altogether), I
did everything to save the fish, ammo-lock (which I was instructed to stop
doing cause it would slow the cycle process), many water changes (sometimes
multiple in a day to reduce the ammonia. It just didn't seem to want to
cycle. I even got seeded filter media. The nitrates rose to .25, but then
disappeared...? So, I figured it was my filter... I went out and bought a
better filter, and ran it for about 3-4 weeks, and never got any nitrites. I
even added seeded media to it from my LFS, and still did not get nitrites
and nitrates, which completely boggles my mind... Finally, my poor pleco
and black ghost both died. They went through allot, including ammonia spikes
to 8 ppm (I don't know why they say ghosts are fragile... he outlasted all
of them).
>
> I hope this one goes flawlessly.

Thank you so much. I loved my first tank... I really enjoyed this hobby. But
I am becoming so discouraged now. It is hard to lose the fish. I feel really
terrible. I just don't understand what is going on...
> --
> www.NetMax.tk
>

[NetMax]

"Connie" > wrote in message
...
>
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Connie" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> "Connie" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> As some of you may remember from previous posts, about 4 months ago,
>>>> I decided to set up my fish tank. After previous success with a
>>>> fishless cycle, I did it again. Once my ammonia dropped, I added my
>>>> fish.
>>>
>>>
>>> I wanted to comment, I did wait until after I developed nitrates, and
>>> my nitrites and ammonia were 0.
>>>
>>>> A black ghost, 4 tiger barbs, 2 mollies, a cory and a pleco (I have
>>>> a 29 gal tank). Well, even thought the cycle had completed, I began
>>>> cycling all over again. I guess I did not have enough bacteria.
>>>>
>>>> Because I was not getting anywhere, I had purchased a new filter,
>>>> and twice went to my LFS and got some seeded filter media. Still, I
>>>> never produced any nitrites or ates in 4 weeks. I became very
>>>> discouraged. My ghost gave a valiant fight. He lasted though all the
>>>> other fish died. He finally gave in last week :-(
>>>>
>>>> When he died, my ghost was covered with a white film... as was
>>>> everything in my tank. Any ideas?
>>>>
>>>> Any how, reluctantly, I am giving it one more try. I bought a new
>>>> compact lighting, hooked up my CO2, bought 30 plants, and added
>>>> water to my tank. Already it is reading 3 ppms of ammonia, and I
>>>> haven't added any fish????
>>>>
>>>> This time I am giving a fish cycle a try. I will buy a couple of
>>>> danios, and hope for the best. I have no idea what went wrong. I
>>>> know it didn't grow enough bacteria the first time, but after 4
>>>> weeks with a new filter, and seeded media why did I not see any
>>>> bacteria then. UGH, I had no problems with my first tank..
>>>>
>>>> Oh well.... here goes nothing...
>>
>
> Hi, thanks for replying.
>>
>> I can't explain what you are seeing, especially the ammonia after
>> adding plants (unless you took away the filter and have a lot of
>> organic matter rotting?).
>
> My husband cleaned out the tank completely about 3 days ago. We then
> added water today, and added the plants. It was reading about a 1-2 ppm
> right after we added the water, and then rose to about 4 ppm. I assume
> there was still residual fish food and stuff rotting, and producing the
> ammonia in the gravel, and adding the water distributed it??
>
>>
>> Occasionally (rarely) I hear about a tank not starting properly.
>> Perhaps there were some conditions which made it harder to seed with
>> bacteria. Using lots of carbon filtration might change your situation
>> (or perhaps it was a water condition which doesn't exist anymore, such
>> as when municipalities triple-dose chlorine during changes to water
>> system). In any case, a high plant to fish ratio will help address
>> anything funky in the water.
>>
>> Is it possible that some contagion caused your false start?
>
> I don't this so. It took it about 5 weeks to cycle, I added enough
> ammonia to raise it to about 8 ppm. Then left it cycle. The nitrates
> only rose to about 5 ppm total though. After adding the fish and
> getting a mini cycle (which actually, after about 5 days, the nitrates
> disappeared altogether), I did everything to save the fish, ammo-lock
> (which I was instructed to stop doing cause it would slow the cycle
> process), many water changes (sometimes multiple in a day to reduce the
> ammonia. It just didn't seem to want to cycle. I even got seeded filter
> media. The nitrates rose to .25, but then disappeared...? So, I figured
> it was my filter... I went out and bought a better filter, and ran it
> for about 3-4 weeks, and never got any nitrites. I even added seeded
> media to it from my LFS, and still did not get nitrites and nitrates,
> which completely boggles my mind... Finally, my poor pleco and black
> ghost both died. They went through allot, including ammonia spikes to 8
> ppm (I don't know why they say ghosts are fragile... he outlasted all
> of them).
>>
>> I hope this one goes flawlessly.
>
> Thank you so much. I loved my first tank... I really enjoyed this
> hobby. But I am becoming so discouraged now. It is hard to lose the
> fish. I feel really terrible. I just don't understand what is going
> on...
>> --
>> www.NetMax.tk


Just a thought, but is your pH low? At very low pH, ammonia (NH3) turns
into ammonium ions (NH4) which are generally harmless and are consumed by
plants, and you don't get the same aerobic nitrifying bacterial action
(the bacteria don't survive acidic water well) so you might not get any
significant nitrites or nitrates? Also, CO2 injection adds carbonic acid
which acidifies your water (low pH = acidic water). Might be a
possibility.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Connie]

> Just a thought, but is your pH low? At very low pH, ammonia (NH3) turns
> into ammonium ions (NH4) which are generally harmless and are consumed by
> plants, and you don't get the same aerobic nitrifying bacterial action
> (the bacteria don't survive acidic water well) so you might not get any
> significant nitrites or nitrates? Also, CO2 injection adds carbonic acid
> which acidifies your water (low pH = acidic water). Might be a
> possibility.
> --
> www.NetMax.tk


My Ph is 7.8, so nope, not low... My ammonia is up to 8 ppm, and I don't
have ANY FISH in there... I just have no idea what is going on. Any other
ideas? Right now I am trying to decide whether to totally empty out my tank
and wash/bleach everything to rid the ammonia, and totally start over, or
whether just to let the tank try and cycle again.

Do you know if Laterite adds or retain ammonia? I added some for my plants.

Thanks.

[Steve]

Connie wrote:
> My ammonia is up to 8 ppm, and I don't
> have ANY FISH in there... I just have no idea what is going on. Any other
> ideas? Right now I am trying to decide whether to totally empty out my tank
> and wash/bleach everything to rid the ammonia, and totally start over, or
> whether just to let the tank try and cycle again.
>
> Do you know if Laterite adds or retain ammonia? I added some for my plants.
>
> Thanks.
>
>
A few possibilities occur to me:
1. There may be something wrong with your test kit. Get another one,of a
different brand.
2. Somehow your system may be contaminated with cleaning supplies (ammonia)?
3. Chloramine in tap water is supposed to release ammonia when chlorine
remover (thiosulphate?) is used. Your biological filter should take care
of it pretty quickly, and I'm speaking theoretically because there's no
chloramine in my tap water, just good old chlorine.

If tap water and dechlorinated tap water have no ammonia, but the
aquarium does, I'd conclude some type of contamination from cleaning
solvents, or else buried corpses in the gravel :) . If the tapwater's
fine but the aquarium has the problem, that would call for a complete
breakdown of the aquarium and washing everything with tap water. I
wouldn't use bleach or anything like that, and hope that some of your
"good" bacteria will survive the process.

Good luck!
Steve

[NetMax]

"Steve" > wrote in message
...
> Connie wrote:
>> My ammonia is up to 8 ppm, and I don't have ANY FISH in there... I
>> just have no idea what is going on. Any other ideas? Right now I am
>> trying to decide whether to totally empty out my tank and wash/bleach
>> everything to rid the ammonia, and totally start over, or whether just
>> to let the tank try and cycle again.
>>
>> Do you know if Laterite adds or retain ammonia? I added some for my
>> plants.
>>
>> Thanks.
> A few possibilities occur to me:
> 1. There may be something wrong with your test kit. Get another one,of
> a different brand.
> 2. Somehow your system may be contaminated with cleaning supplies
> (ammonia)?
> 3. Chloramine in tap water is supposed to release ammonia when chlorine
> remover (thiosulphate?) is used. Your biological filter should take
> care of it pretty quickly, and I'm speaking theoretically because
> there's no chloramine in my tap water, just good old chlorine.
>
> If tap water and dechlorinated tap water have no ammonia, but the
> aquarium does, I'd conclude some type of contamination from cleaning
> solvents, or else buried corpses in the gravel :) . If the tapwater's
> fine but the aquarium has the problem, that would call for a complete
> breakdown of the aquarium and washing everything with tap water. I
> wouldn't use bleach or anything like that, and hope that some of your
> "good" bacteria will survive the process.
>
> Good luck!
> Steve

I'm with Steve (relatively baffled). To get 8ppm from chloramined water,
wouldn't your chloramine level need to be at least 8ppm? (which is quite
high). Another possibility is that you have a lot of mulm in the filter
decaying. I don't use laterite anymore. My limited experience with it
was that it causes cloudy water (bacterial blooms) too easily. I'm sure
others have had success with it...... now that you mention it though,
laterite (cat litter) absorbs ammonia, so you might have just hit on the
combination which causes it to release its ammonia. Yep, if the filter
is clear and the test kit is good, I'd dump the laterite (but then I've
never liked the stuff... old technology).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Connie]

>> A few possibilities occur to me:
>> 1. There may be something wrong with your test kit. Get another one,of a
>> different brand.

Did that, test kit checks out good...


>> 2. Somehow your system may be contaminated with cleaning supplies
>> (ammonia)?

No possibility... I did use ammonia to do my fishless cycle last time, but
it is kept far from my tank. Water comes from my tap, into a bucket, into my
tank... no contamination possible...

>> 3. Chloramine in tap water is supposed to release ammonia when chlorine
>> remover (thiosulphate?) is used. Your biological filter should take care
>> of it pretty quickly, and I'm speaking theoretically because there's no
>> chloramine in my tap water, just good old chlorine.

I am not sure what is in my tap water. I don't have a test kit for either of
those. However, I do not see thiosulphate listed on my ingredients list...


>>
>> If tap water and dechlorinated tap water have no ammonia, but the
>> aquarium does, I'd conclude some type of contamination from cleaning
>> solvents, or else buried corpses in the gravel :) . If the tapwater's
>> fine but the aquarium has the problem, that would call for a complete
>> breakdown of the aquarium and washing everything with tap water. I
>> wouldn't use bleach or anything like that, and hope that some of your
>> "good" bacteria will survive the process.

Sounds like a winner. That is probably what I will be doing. UGH... It is
getting so difficult... I just want to keep a pretty fishtank :-( I knew it
takes alot of work, but this is getting rediculous...


>>
>> Good luck!
>> Steve

Thanks Steve :-)

>
> I'm with Steve (relatively baffled).

LOL, I am VERY baffled!!

> To get 8ppm from chloramined water, wouldn't your chloramine level need to
> be at least 8ppm? (which is quite high).

???

>Another possibility is that you have a lot of mulm in the filter decaying.

Well, I was thinking there may be alot left in the gravel. DH says he
cleaned out the filter pretty good...

> I don't use laterite anymore. My limited experience with it was that it
> causes cloudy water (bacterial blooms) too easily.

I have had cloudy water since I set the tank up, it is horrible. Now I know
what is causing it :-)

> I'm sure others have had success with it...... now that you mention it
> though, laterite (cat litter) absorbs ammonia, so you might have just hit
> on the combination which causes it to release its ammonia. Yep, if the
> filter is clear and the test kit is good, I'd dump the laterite (but then
> I've never liked the stuff... old technology).

Ah HA, that has GOT to be it, by Goodness... There is something WAY off...
and besides being in another state, that is the only difference I have done
between the old (successful) tank, and this new (broke down) tank. DH had it
right I hope (It was his idea :-)


Thanks for all your help, Net max. I am going to break down the tank and set
it back up. I hope all my plants make it, cause I put alot of money into
them... I'll keep you all posted. If you have any more ideas... PLEASE let
me know.

Thanks again :-)

[Steve]

Connie wrote:

>>>3. Chloramine in tap water is supposed to release ammonia when chlorine
>>>remover (thiosulphate?) is used. Your biological filter should take care
>>>of it pretty quickly, and I'm speaking theoretically because there's no
>>>chloramine in my tap water, just good old chlorine.
>
>
> I am not sure what is in my tap water. I don't have a test kit for either of
> those. However, I do not see thiosulphate listed on my ingredients list...
>
>

Connie,
Sorry, I shouldn't have mentioned "thiosulphate", which IS just chlorine
remover.

If you're curious, simply do an ammonia test on your tapwater, and also
on a bucket of dechlorinated tapwater. It seems that, if your tap water
has chloramine added by the municipality, then adding dechlorinator
causes ammonia to form from breakdown of the chloramine. Even if you do
have chloramine, I don't think it would give such high levels of ammonia
as 8 ppm, but I don't really know.

Once you've got the tank, substrate and filter all cleaned and put back
together again, perhaps just be careful about how much you feed? About
the only inputs to the aquarium, from which ammonia can form, are the
fish food and any plant fertilizer. It would also be good to start with
a few inexpensive, hardy fish like the zebra danios you mentioned.

Better luck with your aquarium keeping!
Steve

[Derek Benson]

On Sun, 3 Jul 2005 21:44:58 -0400, "NetMax"
> wrote:

>I'm with Steve (relatively baffled). To get 8ppm from chloramined water,
>wouldn't your chloramine level need to be at least 8ppm? (which is quite
>high). Another possibility is that you have a lot of mulm in the filter
>decaying. I don't use laterite anymore. My limited experience with it
>was that it causes cloudy water (bacterial blooms) too easily. I'm sure
>others have had success with it...... now that you mention it though,
>laterite (cat litter) absorbs ammonia, so you might have just hit on the
>combination which causes it to release its ammonia. Yep, if the filter
>is clear and the test kit is good, I'd dump the laterite (but then I've
>never liked the stuff... old technology).

This laterite stuff that people use in aquariums is CAT LITTER?!?!?!
I am not a chemist and don't know this chemistry/tech stuff all that
well, but it is obvious to me (who has owned cats for many years) that
cat litter absorbs ammonia, but only so much. When it has absorbed a
specific amount it won't take any more, so this ammonia will stay
there as ammonia. Cat litter is also dusty as the dickens, and this
white film covering the tank and Black Ghost is probably the cat
litter dissolving in the water; as it's doing this dissolving act it's
releasing ammonia back out into the water.

I'm curious as to whether it's been scientifically proven, in a
laboratory, that bacteria will grow on cat litter which is used in an
established aquarium? Because if the ammonia-eating bacteria which we
want aren't there eating the ammonia, this ammonia won't be broken
down to nitrite, and poof! the whole cycling process is smithereened.

-Derek

[Steve]

Derek Benson wrote:

> This laterite stuff that people use in aquariums is CAT LITTER?!?!?!

Derek,

We don't let the cats use the litter before adding it to the aquarium.
Too lumpy :) .

Seriously, laterite is a clay-rich soil found in tropical regions,
formed by deep weathering. It's use was popularized by the Dupla company
and their book "The Optimum Aquarium".

Later, an american named Dan Quackenbush published some articles on
using cat litter (also clay) instead of expensive laterite. Quackenbush
had a web site, but he unfortunately has passed away.

Steve
(keeping aquariums for far too long)

[Elaine T]

Connie wrote:
>>Just a thought, but is your pH low? At very low pH, ammonia (NH3) turns
>>into ammonium ions (NH4) which are generally harmless and are consumed by
>>plants, and you don't get the same aerobic nitrifying bacterial action
>>(the bacteria don't survive acidic water well) so you might not get any
>>significant nitrites or nitrates? Also, CO2 injection adds carbonic acid
>>which acidifies your water (low pH = acidic water). Might be a
>>possibility.
>>--
>>www.NetMax.tk
>
>
>
> My Ph is 7.8, so nope, not low... My ammonia is up to 8 ppm, and I don't
> have ANY FISH in there... I just have no idea what is going on. Any other
> ideas? Right now I am trying to decide whether to totally empty out my tank
> and wash/bleach everything to rid the ammonia, and totally start over, or
> whether just to let the tank try and cycle again.
>
> Do you know if Laterite adds or retain ammonia? I added some for my plants.
>
> Thanks.
>
>
There is a bacterial product called Right Now! which is supposed to
fully cycle a tank. It may be something you could use to jump-start
your tank and get a normal cycle going.

I've ordered some and am going to try it on my hospital tank when I'm
done treating a few fish with Maracyn, a notorious filter-killer. I'm
also going to test the denitrification on my guppy tank. The mix of
bacteria was developed for wastewater sludge treatment and the inventor
claims that they are hardier than the typical bacterial populations
found in fishtank filters. The company that makes the bacteria is Hiatt
Distributors Limited, http://www.hdltd.com, and you can order them
online from memory-doctor.com.

I have no affiliation with this company. I've been planning some
experiments on planted tank lighting with an expert recently and he
recommended these bacteria. He's been using them along with the Tri
Base Carbon in his tanks and getting both denitrification and adequate
CO2 production for plants. I looked up the patent and was impressed
enough to buy some.

Good luck!

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Elaine T]

Derek Benson wrote:
> On Sun, 3 Jul 2005 21:44:58 -0400, "NetMax"
> > wrote:
>
>
>>I'm with Steve (relatively baffled). To get 8ppm from chloramined water,
>>wouldn't your chloramine level need to be at least 8ppm? (which is quite
>>high). Another possibility is that you have a lot of mulm in the filter
>>decaying. I don't use laterite anymore. My limited experience with it
>>was that it causes cloudy water (bacterial blooms) too easily. I'm sure
>>others have had success with it...... now that you mention it though,
>>laterite (cat litter) absorbs ammonia, so you might have just hit on the
>>combination which causes it to release its ammonia. Yep, if the filter
>>is clear and the test kit is good, I'd dump the laterite (but then I've
>>never liked the stuff... old technology).
>
>
> This laterite stuff that people use in aquariums is CAT LITTER?!?!?!
> I am not a chemist and don't know this chemistry/tech stuff all that
> well, but it is obvious to me (who has owned cats for many years) that
> cat litter absorbs ammonia, but only so much. When it has absorbed a
> specific amount it won't take any more, so this ammonia will stay
> there as ammonia. Cat litter is also dusty as the dickens, and this
> white film covering the tank and Black Ghost is probably the cat
> litter dissolving in the water; as it's doing this dissolving act it's
> releasing ammonia back out into the water.
>
> I'm curious as to whether it's been scientifically proven, in a
> laboratory, that bacteria will grow on cat litter which is used in an
> established aquarium? Because if the ammonia-eating bacteria which we
> want aren't there eating the ammonia, this ammonia won't be broken
> down to nitrite, and poof! the whole cycling process is smithereened.
>
> -Derek

No. First, cat litter is sodium or calcium bentonite clay (or the very
similar montmorillonite). Laterite clay is a different mineral. It is
mined from tropical regions and is richer in iron, giving it its reddish
color. The reason laterite became popular is because it is the bottom
material in many tropical streams where plants grow very well.

All clays ion exchange and so can adsorb anything with a charge,
including NH4+. Once the charged sites are full, the clay will stop
absorbing. The ion exchanging also means that they tend to be rich in
useful minerals. Plant roots have the ability to remove ions from clays
in soils, and will scavenge anything they find useful off of the clay.
That's why clays are so valuable as aquatic soils. If NH4+, iron,
phosphate, potash, or anything else useful ends up adsorbed to clay in
the root zone of a plant, the plant will use it.

You can use a pure clay kitty litter to grow plants - people with ponds
do it all the time because laterite is so expensive. It does not make
any more of a mess than Flourite or laterite if you rinse it first. The
plants just require more iron in the water column than they do with
laterite.

As for any clay in an aquarium stopping the cycle, whether or not
bateria can grow on clay is immaterial (although I don't see why they
wouldn't). Clays have a finite number of ion exchange sites, much like
zeolite. The clay will absorb as much ammonia as it can, and then the
ammonia will build up in the water again, allowing the tank to cycle.
I've NEVER had a problem cycling a tank with Flourite, laterite, or
bentonite in the substrate.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Connie]

> There is a bacterial product called Right Now! which is supposed to fully
> cycle a tank. It may be something you could use to jump-start your tank
> and get a normal cycle going.
>
> I've ordered some and am going to try it on my hospital tank when I'm done
> treating a few fish with Maracyn, a notorious filter-killer. I'm also
> going to test the denitrification on my guppy tank. The mix of bacteria
> was developed for wastewater sludge treatment and the inventor claims that
> they are hardier than the typical bacterial populations found in fishtank
> filters. The company that makes the bacteria is Hiatt Distributors
> Limited, http://www.hdltd.com, and you can order them online from
> memory-doctor.com.
>
> I have no affiliation with this company. I've been planning some
> experiments on planted tank lighting with an expert recently and he
> recommended these bacteria. He's been using them along with the Tri Base
> Carbon in his tanks and getting both denitrification and adequate CO2
> production for plants. I looked up the patent and was impressed enough to
> buy some.
>
> Good luck!
>
> --
> Elaine T __
> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

This sounds pretty good. And it is alot cheaper than the Bio start stuff I
was looking at.

[NetMax]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
.. .
> Derek Benson wrote:
>> On Sun, 3 Jul 2005 21:44:58 -0400, "NetMax"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I'm with Steve (relatively baffled). To get 8ppm from chloramined
>>>water, wouldn't your chloramine level need to be at least 8ppm? (which
>>>is quite high). Another possibility is that you have a lot of mulm in
>>>the filter decaying. I don't use laterite anymore. My limited
>>>experience with it was that it causes cloudy water (bacterial blooms)
>>>too easily. I'm sure others have had success with it...... now that
>>>you mention it though, laterite (cat litter) absorbs ammonia, so you
>>>might have just hit on the combination which causes it to release its
>>>ammonia. Yep, if the filter is clear and the test kit is good, I'd
>>>dump the laterite (but then I've never liked the stuff... old
>>>technology).
>>
>>
>> This laterite stuff that people use in aquariums is CAT LITTER?!?!?! I
>> am not a chemist and don't know this chemistry/tech stuff all that
>> well, but it is obvious to me (who has owned cats for many years) that
>> cat litter absorbs ammonia, but only so much. When it has absorbed a
>> specific amount it won't take any more, so this ammonia will stay
>> there as ammonia. Cat litter is also dusty as the dickens, and this
>> white film covering the tank and Black Ghost is probably the cat
>> litter dissolving in the water; as it's doing this dissolving act it's
>> releasing ammonia back out into the water.
>>
>> I'm curious as to whether it's been scientifically proven, in a
>> laboratory, that bacteria will grow on cat litter which is used in an
>> established aquarium? Because if the ammonia-eating bacteria which we
>> want aren't there eating the ammonia, this ammonia won't be broken
>> down to nitrite, and poof! the whole cycling process is smithereened.
>>
>> -Derek
>
> No. First, cat litter is sodium or calcium bentonite clay (or the very
> similar montmorillonite). Laterite clay is a different mineral. It is
> mined from tropical regions and is richer in iron, giving it its
> reddish color. The reason laterite became popular is because it is the
> bottom material in many tropical streams where plants grow very well.
>
> All clays ion exchange and so can adsorb anything with a charge,
> including NH4+. Once the charged sites are full, the clay will stop
> absorbing. The ion exchanging also means that they tend to be rich in
> useful minerals. Plant roots have the ability to remove ions from
> clays in soils, and will scavenge anything they find useful off of the
> clay. That's why clays are so valuable as aquatic soils. If NH4+,
> iron, phosphate, potash, or anything else useful ends up adsorbed to
> clay in the root zone of a plant, the plant will use it.
>
> You can use a pure clay kitty litter to grow plants - people with ponds
> do it all the time because laterite is so expensive. It does not make
> any more of a mess than Flourite or laterite if you rinse it first.
> The plants just require more iron in the water column than they do with
> laterite.
>
> As for any clay in an aquarium stopping the cycle, whether or not
> bateria can grow on clay is immaterial (although I don't see why they
> wouldn't). Clays have a finite number of ion exchange sites, much like
> zeolite. The clay will absorb as much ammonia as it can, and then the
> ammonia will build up in the water again, allowing the tank to cycle.
> I've NEVER had a problem cycling a tank with Flourite, laterite, or
> bentonite in the substrate.
>
> --
> Elaine T __
> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

Thanks for that level of detail Elaine. I was speculating on the NH
adsorptive potential of the clay in regards to Connie's situation, which
I think you substantiated.... sort of ;~).

So Connie poured ammonia into a tank and the laterite adsorbed it.
She adds fish and has an ammonia spike due to the under developed
bacterial culture.
She messes with the tank, upsets all the laterite, and it releases some
of the ammonia back into the tank.

I've had flourite and laterite tanks, but I couldn't say if their cycling
was in anyway affected, as I was not expecting or looking for anything
unusual. Also the usage of these substrates is usually accompanied by
lots of live plants (or what would be the point?), so how could you see
your cycling negatively affected? ;~)
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Elaine T]

NetMax wrote:
> "Elaine T" > wrote in message
> .. .
>
>>Derek Benson wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 3 Jul 2005 21:44:58 -0400, "NetMax"
> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>I'm with Steve (relatively baffled). To get 8ppm from chloramined
>>>>water, wouldn't your chloramine level need to be at least 8ppm? (which
>>>>is quite high). Another possibility is that you have a lot of mulm in
>>>>the filter decaying. I don't use laterite anymore. My limited
>>>>experience with it was that it causes cloudy water (bacterial blooms)
>>>>too easily. I'm sure others have had success with it...... now that
>>>>you mention it though, laterite (cat litter) absorbs ammonia, so you
>>>>might have just hit on the combination which causes it to release its
>>>>ammonia. Yep, if the filter is clear and the test kit is good, I'd
>>>>dump the laterite (but then I've never liked the stuff... old
>>>>technology).
>>>
>>>
>>>This laterite stuff that people use in aquariums is CAT LITTER?!?!?! I
>>>am not a chemist and don't know this chemistry/tech stuff all that
>>>well, but it is obvious to me (who has owned cats for many years) that
>>>cat litter absorbs ammonia, but only so much. When it has absorbed a
>>>specific amount it won't take any more, so this ammonia will stay
>>>there as ammonia. Cat litter is also dusty as the dickens, and this
>>>white film covering the tank and Black Ghost is probably the cat
>>>litter dissolving in the water; as it's doing this dissolving act it's
>>>releasing ammonia back out into the water.
>>>
>>>I'm curious as to whether it's been scientifically proven, in a
>>>laboratory, that bacteria will grow on cat litter which is used in an
>>>established aquarium? Because if the ammonia-eating bacteria which we
>>>want aren't there eating the ammonia, this ammonia won't be broken
>>>down to nitrite, and poof! the whole cycling process is smithereened.
>>>
>>>-Derek
>>
>>No. First, cat litter is sodium or calcium bentonite clay (or the very
>>similar montmorillonite). Laterite clay is a different mineral. It is
>>mined from tropical regions and is richer in iron, giving it its
>>reddish color. The reason laterite became popular is because it is the
>>bottom material in many tropical streams where plants grow very well.
>>
>>All clays ion exchange and so can adsorb anything with a charge,
>>including NH4+. Once the charged sites are full, the clay will stop
>>absorbing. The ion exchanging also means that they tend to be rich in
>>useful minerals. Plant roots have the ability to remove ions from
>>clays in soils, and will scavenge anything they find useful off of the
>>clay. That's why clays are so valuable as aquatic soils. If NH4+,
>>iron, phosphate, potash, or anything else useful ends up adsorbed to
>>clay in the root zone of a plant, the plant will use it.
>>
>>You can use a pure clay kitty litter to grow plants - people with ponds
>>do it all the time because laterite is so expensive. It does not make
>>any more of a mess than Flourite or laterite if you rinse it first.
>>The plants just require more iron in the water column than they do with
>>laterite.
>>
>>As for any clay in an aquarium stopping the cycle, whether or not
>>bateria can grow on clay is immaterial (although I don't see why they
>>wouldn't). Clays have a finite number of ion exchange sites, much like
>>zeolite. The clay will absorb as much ammonia as it can, and then the
>>ammonia will build up in the water again, allowing the tank to cycle.
>>I've NEVER had a problem cycling a tank with Flourite, laterite, or
>>bentonite in the substrate.
>>
>>--
>>Elaine T __
>>http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
>>rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com
>
>
> Thanks for that level of detail Elaine. I was speculating on the NH
> adsorptive potential of the clay in regards to Connie's situation, which
> I think you substantiated.... sort of ;~).
>
> So Connie poured ammonia into a tank and the laterite adsorbed it.
> She adds fish and has an ammonia spike due to the under developed
> bacterial culture.
> She messes with the tank, upsets all the laterite, and it releases some
> of the ammonia back into the tank.
>
> I've had flourite and laterite tanks, but I couldn't say if their cycling
> was in anyway affected, as I was not expecting or looking for anything
> unusual. Also the usage of these substrates is usually accompanied by
> lots of live plants (or what would be the point?), so how could you see
> your cycling negatively affected? ;~)

Good point! I rarely see ammonia or nitrite spikes during the first six
weeks in my laterite substrate, planted tanks. I do get filter bacteria
that I can use to seed other tanks and have never had a "stuck cycle"
with no nitrate production. I think the plants use up the ammonia and
nitrite until the filter is colonized at which point they switch over to
nitrate.

What I can't figure out is why the clay would have dumped the ammonia
back out in Connie's tank. Physical stirring rarely disrupts ion
exchange interactions. Maybe a pH drop?

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[NetMax]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
. ..
> NetMax wrote:
>> "Elaine T" > wrote in message
>> .. .
>>
>>>Derek Benson wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sun, 3 Jul 2005 21:44:58 -0400, "NetMax"
> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I'm with Steve (relatively baffled). To get 8ppm from chloramined
>>>>>water, wouldn't your chloramine level need to be at least 8ppm?
>>>>>(which is quite high). Another possibility is that you have a lot
>>>>>of mulm in the filter decaying. I don't use laterite anymore. My
>>>>>limited experience with it was that it causes cloudy water
>>>>>(bacterial blooms) too easily. I'm sure others have had success
>>>>>with it...... now that you mention it though, laterite (cat litter)
>>>>>absorbs ammonia, so you might have just hit on the combination which
>>>>>causes it to release its ammonia. Yep, if the filter is clear and
>>>>>the test kit is good, I'd dump the laterite (but then I've never
>>>>>liked the stuff... old technology).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>This laterite stuff that people use in aquariums is CAT LITTER?!?!?!
>>>>I am not a chemist and don't know this chemistry/tech stuff all that
>>>>well, but it is obvious to me (who has owned cats for many years)
>>>>that
>>>>cat litter absorbs ammonia, but only so much. When it has absorbed a
>>>>specific amount it won't take any more, so this ammonia will stay
>>>>there as ammonia. Cat litter is also dusty as the dickens, and this
>>>>white film covering the tank and Black Ghost is probably the cat
>>>>litter dissolving in the water; as it's doing this dissolving act
>>>>it's
>>>>releasing ammonia back out into the water.
>>>>
>>>>I'm curious as to whether it's been scientifically proven, in a
>>>>laboratory, that bacteria will grow on cat litter which is used in an
>>>>established aquarium? Because if the ammonia-eating bacteria which we
>>>>want aren't there eating the ammonia, this ammonia won't be broken
>>>>down to nitrite, and poof! the whole cycling process is smithereened.
>>>>
>>>>-Derek
>>>
>>>No. First, cat litter is sodium or calcium bentonite clay (or the very
>>>similar montmorillonite). Laterite clay is a different mineral. It
>>>is mined from tropical regions and is richer in iron, giving it its
>>>reddish color. The reason laterite became popular is because it is
>>>the bottom material in many tropical streams where plants grow very
>>>well.
>>>
>>>All clays ion exchange and so can adsorb anything with a charge,
>>>including NH4+. Once the charged sites are full, the clay will stop
>>>absorbing. The ion exchanging also means that they tend to be rich in
>>>useful minerals. Plant roots have the ability to remove ions from
>>>clays in soils, and will scavenge anything they find useful off of the
>>>clay. That's why clays are so valuable as aquatic soils. If NH4+,
>>>iron, phosphate, potash, or anything else useful ends up adsorbed to
>>>clay in the root zone of a plant, the plant will use it.
>>>
>>>You can use a pure clay kitty litter to grow plants - people with
>>>ponds do it all the time because laterite is so expensive. It does
>>>not make any more of a mess than Flourite or laterite if you rinse it
>>>first. The plants just require more iron in the water column than they
>>>do with laterite.
>>>
>>>As for any clay in an aquarium stopping the cycle, whether or not
>>>bateria can grow on clay is immaterial (although I don't see why they
>>>wouldn't). Clays have a finite number of ion exchange sites, much
>>>like zeolite. The clay will absorb as much ammonia as it can, and
>>>then the ammonia will build up in the water again, allowing the tank
>>>to cycle. I've NEVER had a problem cycling a tank with Flourite,
>>>laterite, or bentonite in the substrate.
>>>
>>>--
>>>Elaine T __
>>>http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
>>>rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com
>>
>>
>> Thanks for that level of detail Elaine. I was speculating on the NH
>> adsorptive potential of the clay in regards to Connie's situation,
>> which I think you substantiated.... sort of ;~).
>>
>> So Connie poured ammonia into a tank and the laterite adsorbed it.
>> She adds fish and has an ammonia spike due to the under developed
>> bacterial culture.
>> She messes with the tank, upsets all the laterite, and it releases
>> some of the ammonia back into the tank.
>>
>> I've had flourite and laterite tanks, but I couldn't say if their
>> cycling was in anyway affected, as I was not expecting or looking for
>> anything unusual. Also the usage of these substrates is usually
>> accompanied by lots of live plants (or what would be the point?), so
>> how could you see your cycling negatively affected? ;~)
>
> Good point! I rarely see ammonia or nitrite spikes during the first
> six weeks in my laterite substrate, planted tanks. I do get filter
> bacteria that I can use to seed other tanks and have never had a "stuck
> cycle" with no nitrate production. I think the plants use up the
> ammonia and nitrite until the filter is colonized at which point they
> switch over to nitrate.
>
> What I can't figure out is why the clay would have dumped the ammonia
> back out in Connie's tank. Physical stirring rarely disrupts ion
> exchange interactions. Maybe a pH drop?
>
> --
> Elaine T __
> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

Exactly, what *was* the trigger mechanism? I have no chemical academia
to rely on, but carbon goes through a similar action. Perhaps
dehydration, temperature or pH as you mentioned.

Also note that the levels seen (8ppm) might not really be a dump, as we
don't know what levels the laterite adsorbed. This might actually be a
relatively small release, especially if Connie used the method of adding
ammonia periodically during the fishless cycle.

Also worth investigating is the pH angle, as Connie was using CO2 but
with alkaline water. As a fellow who would look out from behind a potted
fern would occasionally say "verrrrry interesting" (from Rowan & Martin's
laugh in?)
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Connie]

> Exactly, what *was* the trigger mechanism? I have no chemical academia to
> rely on, but carbon goes through a similar action. Perhaps dehydration,
> temperature or pH as you mentioned.

Actually, I do recall for some reason, my PH dropped from 7.8 to about 7.2.
I am not sure why, as I had already stopped the CO2 (because I thought maybe
that was contributing to my ails with this tank).

>
> Also note that the levels seen (8ppm) might not really be a dump, as we
> don't know what levels the laterite adsorbed. This might actually be a
> relatively small release, especially if Connie used the method of adding
> ammonia periodically during the fishless cycle.

Nope, I added enought ammonia to spike it to 8 ppm, and then did not add
anymore.

>
> Also worth investigating is the pH angle, as Connie was using CO2 but with
> alkaline water. As a fellow who would look out from behind a potted fern
> would occasionally say "verrrrry interesting" (from Rowan & Martin's laugh
> in?)
> --
> www.NetMax.tk

I am so glad I have others stumped, as I am clueless. I do hope this has
just been one big failure, and with the cleaning of the tank, I can start
off in good terms and get my tank to WORK :-)~

[NetMax]

"Connie" > wrote in message
...
<snip>
>
> I am so glad I have others stumped, as I am clueless. I do hope this
> has just been one big failure, and with the cleaning of the tank, I can
> start off in good terms and get my tank to WORK :-)~

Personally, I don't think it's a good idea to cycle (fishless or with
fish) while doing any of the following:
injecting CO2
adding iron or any fertilizers
using excessive carbon, zeolite, clay etc
medicating a tank
altering water parameters in the tank (peat, calcium carbonates, buffers
etc)

Water temperature, pH etc all affect the bacterium species established
and reproduction rates. I'm a little old fashioned in that I like my
variables, one at a time ;~).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[LÄ?Ê»ie Techie]

On Sat, 02 Jul 2005 15:45:34 -0500, Connie wrote:

> My ghost gave a valiant fight. He lasted though all the other fish died.
> He finally gave in last week :-(

Ghosts like a place where they feel safe. They are blind and use some
sort of sensor to "see" their surroundings. My LFS was having trouble
keeping their ghosts alive long enough to sell them. Eventually a
hobbyist suggested placing a gerbil tunnel in the tank. The ghost hangs
out there when feeling stressed. By the time the ghost outgrows the tube,
it will be more sure of itself (ghosts grow up to 20 inches).

HTH,
Laie Techie