sick fish -- I need advice

[coolchinchilla]

About a week ago I had a lab who wasn't looking good, so I stressed
everyone in the tank and put him in a hospital bucket. I put him in
the main tank yesterday night. He looks like he's doing just fine. :-)

Yesterday for roll call, one of my blue fish was missing. When I
did see him later in the day he looked really pale and he was
listing both to the side and aft down. He couldn't keep himself
upright. So that's when the lab had to go back in the tank and blue
guy had to come out. He couldn't even run and hide from the net
like everyone else did. I have more than one bucket but only one
extra set of filter, heater, thermometer. So I set up the second
hospital bucket.

He can't even keep himself upright in any way. Now he is totally
upside down. -- belly up in the hospital bucket and he can't seem
to do anything about it. His side fins can direct his movements very
crudely. I don't think he can move his tail fin. I put in some
melafix yesterday and today. I put in a little bit of aquarium salt
and he regained some color from that. I put in some fresh water.

I bought some frozen brine shrimp for blue guy. I'm thinking that
if he won't eat that, then maybe I need to euthanize him. :-( :-(
I put the brine shrimp in and I can't tell if he ate any but I'm
almost sure he tried to swim towards it.

Poor guy. He's such a sweetie. I feel so bad for him. I don't
know what to do for him. I want to do right by him.

Any suggestions?

Thanks.
coolchinchilla

[Elaine T]

coolchinchilla wrote:
> About a week ago I had a lab who wasn't looking good, so I stressed
> everyone in the tank and put him in a hospital bucket. I put him in the
> main tank yesterday night. He looks like he's doing just fine. :-)
>
> Yesterday for roll call, one of my blue fish was missing. When I did
> see him later in the day he looked really pale and he was listing both
> to the side and aft down. He couldn't keep himself upright. So that's
> when the lab had to go back in the tank and blue guy had to come out.
> He couldn't even run and hide from the net like everyone else did. I
> have more than one bucket but only one extra set of filter, heater,
> thermometer. So I set up the second hospital bucket.
>
> He can't even keep himself upright in any way. Now he is totally upside
> down. -- belly up in the hospital bucket and he can't seem to do
> anything about it. His side fins can direct his movements very crudely.
> I don't think he can move his tail fin. I put in some melafix yesterday
> and today. I put in a little bit of aquarium salt and he regained some
> color from that. I put in some fresh water.
>
> I bought some frozen brine shrimp for blue guy. I'm thinking that if he
> won't eat that, then maybe I need to euthanize him. :-( :-( I put the
> brine shrimp in and I can't tell if he ate any but I'm almost sure he
> tried to swim towards it.
>
> Poor guy. He's such a sweetie. I feel so bad for him. I don't know
> what to do for him. I want to do right by him.
>
> Any suggestions?
>
> Thanks.
> coolchinchilla

Oh, man. If he eats, or even tries there's hope. A fish with an
appetite is in much better shape than one without. Give an antibiotic
flake if he can get it from the surface - Jungle makes one. Otherwise
add a good broad-spectrum antibiotic like oxytetracycline dissolved in
oil to whatever he will/can eat.

If he doesn't eat, then you have to look closely and see if he's got
signs of infection or injury. I take it from the lab that he lives in
an African cichlid tank? Missing scales or fin damage mean he may have
simply been clobbered by his tankmates. You could have upset a
territorial balance by removing the lab. He'll probably heal if you can
keep the water good and clean. OTOH, if there are ulcers, red fin bases
or reddening at the vent, cloudy eyes, swelling, or other external signs
of infection, you can try antibiotics in the water but I wouldn't be too
optimistic.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[coolchinchilla]

Elaine T wrote:
> coolchinchilla wrote:
>
>> He can't even keep himself upright in any way. Now he is totally
>> upside down. -- belly up in the hospital bucket and he can't seem to
>> do anything about it. His side fins can direct his movements very
>> crudely. I don't think he can move his tail fin. I put in some
>> melafix yesterday and today. I put in a little bit of aquarium salt
>> and he regained some color from that. I put in some fresh water.
>>
>> I bought some frozen brine shrimp for blue guy. I'm thinking that if
>> he won't eat that, then maybe I need to euthanize him. :-( :-( I
>> put the brine shrimp in and I can't tell if he ate any but I'm almost
>> sure he tried to swim towards it.
>>
>> Poor guy. He's such a sweetie. I feel so bad for him. I don't know
>> what to do for him. I want to do right by him.
>>
>> Any suggestions?
>>
>> Thanks.
>> coolchinchilla
>
>
> Oh, man. If he eats, or even tries there's hope. A fish with an
> appetite is in much better shape than one without.

I'm glad to hear this!

Otherwise
> add a good broad-spectrum antibiotic like oxytetracycline dissolved in
> oil to whatever he will/can eat.

Huh? Do you mean dissolve a capsule in oil and then soak food in
it? What kind of oil is ok for a fish? I think all I have is olive
oil.
>
> If he doesn't eat, then you have to look closely and see if he's got
> signs of infection or injury. I take it from the lab that he lives in
> an African cichlid tank?

Yeah. Lake Malawi Mbunas

Missing scales or fin damage mean he may have
> simply been clobbered by his tankmates. You could have upset a
> territorial balance by removing the lab.

Didn't know these fish were so persnickety and have such an intense
pecking order. I probably did disrupt the order of things
unnecessarily. The guy I got them from said that they were hearty
fish and that's all I knew. I went home and immediately read as
much as I could before I brought the tank home the next day. It's
been a month and I'm still in the learning curve stage. <sigh>

Thanks so much for your suggestions!

coolchinchilla

[Dick]

On Tue, 05 Jul 2005 21:34:21 -0500, coolchinchilla
> wrote:

>About a week ago I had a lab who wasn't looking good, so I stressed
>everyone in the tank and put him in a hospital bucket. I put him in
>the main tank yesterday night. He looks like he's doing just fine. :-)
>
>Yesterday for roll call, one of my blue fish was missing. When I
>did see him later in the day he looked really pale and he was
>listing both to the side and aft down. He couldn't keep himself
>upright. So that's when the lab had to go back in the tank and blue
>guy had to come out. He couldn't even run and hide from the net
>like everyone else did. I have more than one bucket but only one
>extra set of filter, heater, thermometer. So I set up the second
>hospital bucket.
>
>He can't even keep himself upright in any way. Now he is totally
>upside down. -- belly up in the hospital bucket and he can't seem
>to do anything about it. His side fins can direct his movements very
>crudely. I don't think he can move his tail fin. I put in some
>melafix yesterday and today. I put in a little bit of aquarium salt
>and he regained some color from that. I put in some fresh water.
>
>I bought some frozen brine shrimp for blue guy. I'm thinking that
>if he won't eat that, then maybe I need to euthanize him. :-( :-(
> I put the brine shrimp in and I can't tell if he ate any but I'm
>almost sure he tried to swim towards it.
>
>Poor guy. He's such a sweetie. I feel so bad for him. I don't
>know what to do for him. I want to do right by him.
>
>Any suggestions?
>
>Thanks.
>coolchinchilla

Sounds like swim bladder infection. I have never had a fish recover
from this. Good news, I have never seen the infection spread, that is
another fish get sick in the same tank.

Just a thought about your efforts to feed your fish well, sometimes
fish don't eat. I had a large angelfish that was special to me. It
quit eating (so far as I could tell) for about a month, then suddenly
started eating again. I worry that special foods might contaminate a
tank. I know people like to feed fish special treats, some to bring
out color or to encourage breeding, but too much nutrient in the water
brings risks. You are such a "mother hen." Have you considered
chicken soup? <g>

dick

dick

[Elaine T]

coolchinchilla wrote:

> Elaine T wrote:
>
>> coolchinchilla wrote:
>>
>>> He can't even keep himself upright in any way. Now he is totally
>>> upside down. -- belly up in the hospital bucket and he can't seem
>>> to do anything about it. His side fins can direct his movements very
>>> crudely. I don't think he can move his tail fin. I put in some
>>> melafix yesterday and today. I put in a little bit of aquarium salt
>>> and he regained some color from that. I put in some fresh water.
>>>
>>> I bought some frozen brine shrimp for blue guy. I'm thinking that
>>> if he won't eat that, then maybe I need to euthanize him. :-( :-(
>>> I put the brine shrimp in and I can't tell if he ate any but I'm
>>> almost sure he tried to swim towards it.
>>>
>>> Poor guy. He's such a sweetie. I feel so bad for him. I don't
>>> know what to do for him. I want to do right by him.
>>>
>>> Any suggestions?
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>> coolchinchilla
>>
>>
>>
>> Oh, man. If he eats, or even tries there's hope. A fish with an
>> appetite is in much better shape than one without.
>
>
> I'm glad to hear this!
>
> Otherwise
>
>> add a good broad-spectrum antibiotic like oxytetracycline dissolved
>> in oil to whatever he will/can eat.
>
>
> Huh? Do you mean dissolve a capsule in oil and then soak food in it?
> What kind of oil is ok for a fish? I think all I have is olive oil.
>
>>
>> If he doesn't eat, then you have to look closely and see if he's got
>> signs of infection or injury. I take it from the lab that he lives
>> in an African cichlid tank?
>
>
> Yeah. Lake Malawi Mbunas
>
> Missing scales or fin damage mean he may have
>
>> simply been clobbered by his tankmates. You could have upset a
>> territorial balance by removing the lab.
>
>
> Didn't know these fish were so persnickety and have such an intense
> pecking order. I probably did disrupt the order of things
> unnecessarily. The guy I got them from said that they were hearty
> fish and that's all I knew. I went home and immediately read as much
> as I could before I brought the tank home the next day. It's been a
> month and I'm still in the learning curve stage. <sigh>
>
> Thanks so much for your suggestions!
>
> coolchinchilla

Right. If you can't find a pre-made antibiotic food and want to feed
antibiotics, make a slurry of a capsule of medicine in cooking oil and
soak a good spirulina-based cichlid staple food in it. Olive oil is
fine. Pre-made food is better, though, because the dosage is more
controlled. I think you can find the Jungle food at PetSmart if you're
in the US.

However, since he's an mbuna and you recently changed the tank, I think
physical damage is the problem and I don't know that antibiotics in the
food will do much. Dab some Neosporin on any open wounds every other
day until they heal. The most important things for him are excellent
water and a good spirulina-based food. Got any algae covered rocks for
him to pick at? Consider keeping him a breeding net in the main tank if
you start to get even a trace of ammonia in the hospital.

If he recovers, the really hard thing will be reintroducing him to the
tank. Post again here and in a.a.fw.cichlids when he's well and the
many mbuna experts will tell you what to do.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[coolchinchilla]

coolchinchilla wrote:
>
> He can't even keep himself upright in any way. Now he is totally upside
> down. -- belly up in the hospital bucket and he can't seem to do
> anything about it. His side fins can direct his movements very crudely.
> I don't think he can move his tail fin. I put in some melafix yesterday
> and today. I put in a little bit of aquarium salt and he regained some
> color from that. I put in some fresh water.
> <snip>
> Poor guy. He's such a sweetie. I feel so bad for him. I don't know
> what to do for him. I want to do right by him.

Good news!!! Today blue guy was *upright* in the hospital bucket!!
He still looks awful as far as his "complexion" goes -- very pale
and some splotches where he looks injured. He can still only move
crudely with his side fins, but he was upright and he was at the
bottom of the bucket under the rock. Yahooooooo!

coolchinchilla

[coolchinchilla]

Dick wrote:
>
> Just a thought about your efforts to feed your fish well, sometimes
> fish don't eat. I had a large angelfish that was special to me. It
> quit eating (so far as I could tell) for about a month, then suddenly
> started eating again.
> I worry that special foods might contaminate a
> tank. I know people like to feed fish special treats, some to bring
> out color or to encourage breeding, but too much nutrient in the water
> brings risks.

Huh. glad to know. Part of my pet experience is with bunnies. If
a bunny doesn't eat for more than 12 hours it is bad news and you
need to start interventions immediately (force water consumption,
favorite treats, massage the abdomen). If it is 24 hours, then you
need to get the bun to a vet immediately for gut motility drugs and
subcutaneous fluids. Food consumption is a major indicator of rabbit
health. I've given my bun some infant Gas-X as a preventative when
I wasn't sure if she was alright. Some people keep drugs and sub-Q
fluids plus a stethoscope to listen to bunny's gut in a bunny
first-aid kit.

So I guess I respond to my fish the same way I'd respond to my
bunny. :-) Of course they are VERY different creatures. Now that
I know better, I'll do better.

> You are such a "mother hen." Have you considered chicken soup? <g>

:-) If I could figure out how to give some chicken soup to my sick
fish, I'd do it! (He'd love the salt in the soup for sure!)

Thanks for the help.
coolchinchilla

[coolchinchilla]

Elaine T wrote:
> coolchinchilla wrote:
> <snip>
>>> Oh, man. If he eats, or even tries there's hope. A fish with an
>>> appetite is in much better shape than one without.
>>
>><snip>

> Right. If you can't find a pre-made antibiotic food and want to feed
> antibiotics, make a slurry of a capsule of medicine in cooking oil and
> soak a good spirulina-based cichlid staple food in it. Olive oil is
> fine. Pre-made food is better, though, because the dosage is more
> controlled. I think you can find the Jungle food at PetSmart if you're
> in the US.

Question about the delivery of the antibiotics: At the store the
fish meds seem to be designed to disolve in the tank water. The
label doesn't say anything about internal ingestion? Is the
water-delivery method a poor way to do it? Would the water delivery
be of any use to the external physical damage?

> However, since he's an mbuna and you recently changed the tank, I think
> physical damage is the problem

:-( Poor guy. Didn't know I was upsetting the balance so much.

and I don't know that antibiotics in the
> food will do much. Dab some Neosporin on any open wounds every other
> day until they heal.

ok.
The most important things for him are excellent
> water and a good spirulina-based food. Got any algae covered rocks for
> him to pick at?

Good idea.

Consider keeping him a breeding net in the main tank if
> you start to get even a trace of ammonia in the hospital.

I tested today and ammonia = 0, nitrite = 0 and nitrate = 20. So
far so good.


> If he recovers, the really hard thing will be reintroducing him to the
> tank. Post again here and in a.a.fw.cichlids when he's well and the
> many mbuna experts will tell you what to do.

Ok. Thanks for your help!

Coolchinchilla

[Dick]

On Wed, 06 Jul 2005 20:28:08 -0500, coolchinchilla
> wrote:

>Dick wrote:
>>
>> Just a thought about your efforts to feed your fish well, sometimes
>> fish don't eat. I had a large angelfish that was special to me. It
>> quit eating (so far as I could tell) for about a month, then suddenly
>> started eating again.
>> I worry that special foods might contaminate a
>> tank. I know people like to feed fish special treats, some to bring
>> out color or to encourage breeding, but too much nutrient in the water
>> brings risks.
>
>Huh. glad to know. Part of my pet experience is with bunnies. If
>a bunny doesn't eat for more than 12 hours it is bad news and you
>need to start interventions immediately (force water consumption,
>favorite treats, massage the abdomen). If it is 24 hours, then you
>need to get the bun to a vet immediately for gut motility drugs and
>subcutaneous fluids. Food consumption is a major indicator of rabbit
>health. I've given my bun some infant Gas-X as a preventative when
>I wasn't sure if she was alright. Some people keep drugs and sub-Q
>fluids plus a stethoscope to listen to bunny's gut in a bunny
>first-aid kit.
>
>So I guess I respond to my fish the same way I'd respond to my
>bunny. :-) Of course they are VERY different creatures. Now that
>I know better, I'll do better.
>
>> You are such a "mother hen." Have you considered chicken soup? <g>
>
>:-) If I could figure out how to give some chicken soup to my sick
>fish, I'd do it! (He'd love the salt in the soup for sure!)
>
>Thanks for the help.
>coolchinchilla

I hope you are in a "caring" profession. You sure do have the
motivation and emphathy. On the other hand it might be too hurtfull
to watch others in pain. In any case you are a standard for others in
your caring! :-)

dick

[Elaine T]

coolchinchilla wrote:

> Elaine T wrote:
>
>> coolchinchilla wrote:
>> <snip>
>>
>>>> Oh, man. If he eats, or even tries there's hope. A fish with an
>>>> appetite is in much better shape than one without.
>>>
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>
>
>> Right. If you can't find a pre-made antibiotic food and want to feed
>> antibiotics, make a slurry of a capsule of medicine in cooking oil
>> and soak a good spirulina-based cichlid staple food in it. Olive oil
>> is fine. Pre-made food is better, though, because the dosage is more
>> controlled. I think you can find the Jungle food at PetSmart if
>> you're in the US.
>
>
> Question about the delivery of the antibiotics: At the store the fish
> meds seem to be designed to disolve in the tank water. The label
> doesn't say anything about internal ingestion? Is the water-delivery
> method a poor way to do it? Would the water delivery be of any use to
> the external physical damage?

Veterinarians treating large fish like koi always inject or treat with
antibiotics in the food. Much as with you and I, the fishes circulation
will deliver the antibiotic where needed. Fish can also absorb some
antibiotics through the skin and gill membranes, so for small fish that
refuse food, it's worth trying adding antibiotic to the water.
Nitrofurazone and kanamycin are two I can think of off the top of my
head that are absorbed - there are others. However, fish do not recieve
as strong a dose, a lot of the antibiotic breaks down in the water and
is lost, and you often damage your biofiltration which causes other
problems.

The other BIG problem with adding antibiotics to the water is that you
tend to raise antibiotic resistant bacteria in your fishtank. This is
particularly true of aquarists who use antibiotics frequently and switch
medicines after a few days when one doesn't work. There is at least one
very well-documented case of an aquarist becoming infected with
antibiotic resistant Mycobacterium marinum.

For visible external physical damage, preventing infection by dabbing
the injury with either an antibiotic cream/ointment like neosporin or a
bacteriostatic like mercurichrome is ideal. Again, you want to
concentrate the medicine at the wound. Dabbing malachite green onto a
wound that has fungused works exremely well. Diffuse external
infections like flexibacter often respond to bacteriostatics like
potassium permanganate or acriflavine which don't lead to drug resistance.

<soapbox>
So, why are all these antibiotics for tank water on the market? First,
they do sometimes work. But mostly, the pet fish industry is not
regulated at all, so caveat emptor applies. As long as a fish store
employee will recommend a packet of capsules for a sich fish and someone
buys them, they will stay be on the shelves. That attitude has also led
to the popularity of inadequately tested "natural" remedies like pimafix
and melafix, products that cause algae problems like pH down,
ineffective nitrifying bacterial products, and "kitchen-sink" water
treatments rather than simple dechlorinator.

I try very hard to stick to recommending antibiotics in food for fish
that are still eating or spot-treatments for wounds. I think it's far
more effective and safer for the aquarist.
</spoapbox> ;-)

BTW, keep us posted on how your fish is doing. I'm rooting for him!

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Elaine T]

coolchinchilla wrote:
> coolchinchilla wrote:
>
>>
>> He can't even keep himself upright in any way. Now he is totally
>> upside down. -- belly up in the hospital bucket and he can't seem to
>> do anything about it. His side fins can direct his movements very
>> crudely. I don't think he can move his tail fin. I put in some
>> melafix yesterday and today. I put in a little bit of aquarium salt
>> and he regained some color from that. I put in some fresh water.
>> <snip>
>> Poor guy. He's such a sweetie. I feel so bad for him. I don't know
>> what to do for him. I want to do right by him.
>
>
> Good news!!! Today blue guy was *upright* in the hospital bucket!! He
> still looks awful as far as his "complexion" goes -- very pale and some
> splotches where he looks injured. He can still only move crudely with
> his side fins, but he was upright and he was at the bottom of the bucket
> under the rock. Yahooooooo!
>
> coolchinchilla

That's great news! I hope he makes it from here - he probably will.
Just keep his water very clean and watch for fungus on his injuries.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[coolchinchilla]

Elaine T wrote:
>
> That's great news! I hope he makes it from here - he probably will.
> Just keep his water very clean and watch for fungus on his injuries.
>

I checked out my sick fish this afternoon and he is still getting
better! :D

He doesn't have any dark blotches on his sides for injury now. He
is still pale but even that looks a little better. He is upright.
He is still a little stiff and clumsy at swimming. He hangs at the
bottom of the hospital bucket under a rock So slowly but surely...
he's coming along.

coolchinchilla :) :D

[coolchinchilla]

My sick blue fish is doing better. I gave him 5 days of
antibiotics. The wounds (?) on his sides are gone. When I netted
him he tried to get away and vigorously squirmed in the net. :-)
He's gaining his swimming capacity and he's got some spunk back in
him. :-)

He still looks dreadfully pale. Instead of blue, he looks a very
pale gray. The other day I put him in a salt bath for 5-6 minutes
and then put him in the hospital bucket filled with new aquarium
water plus some fresh water. He stays under the rock. He doesn't
come out for anything. I try to feed him but I can't tell if he
eats. I put some rocks with algae in the bucket for him to nibble on.

He's a plucky guy. Hope he keeps getting better. I figure I'll let
him stay in the hospital bucket with no more treatments (other than
water changes) for a few days. Then I'll decide what to do next.
Should I add a little salt to the water?

Thanks people for your advice.
coolchinchilla

[Gill Passman]

"coolchinchilla" > wrote in message
...
> My sick blue fish is doing better. I gave him 5 days of
> antibiotics. The wounds (?) on his sides are gone. When I netted
> him he tried to get away and vigorously squirmed in the net. :-)
> He's gaining his swimming capacity and he's got some spunk back in
> him. :-)
>
> He still looks dreadfully pale. Instead of blue, he looks a very
> pale gray. The other day I put him in a salt bath for 5-6 minutes
> and then put him in the hospital bucket filled with new aquarium
> water plus some fresh water. He stays under the rock. He doesn't
> come out for anything. I try to feed him but I can't tell if he
> eats. I put some rocks with algae in the bucket for him to nibble on.
>
> He's a plucky guy. Hope he keeps getting better. I figure I'll let
> him stay in the hospital bucket with no more treatments (other than
> water changes) for a few days. Then I'll decide what to do next.
> Should I add a little salt to the water?
>
> Thanks people for your advice.
> coolchinchilla

Do you know what type of fish he is? I have 3 Melanochromis Cyaneorhabdos.
Generally they are the deep blue that I would expect, however two of them do
go a very pale blue - usually if there is any spawning going on. One in
particular gets beaten on and goes into hiding until she recovers - normally
accompanied by some additions to the tank. Now, I'm not saying that yours
are spawning but Mbunas can lose colour if they are not the dominant fish in
the tank.

As he appears to be getting better I would leave him in the hospital bucket
with no further treatment for a few days and observe him.

Gill

[Elaine T]

Gill Passman wrote:
> "coolchinchilla" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>My sick blue fish is doing better. I gave him 5 days of
>>antibiotics. The wounds (?) on his sides are gone. When I netted
>>him he tried to get away and vigorously squirmed in the net. :-)
>>He's gaining his swimming capacity and he's got some spunk back in
>>him. :-)
>>
>>He still looks dreadfully pale. Instead of blue, he looks a very
>>pale gray. The other day I put him in a salt bath for 5-6 minutes
>>and then put him in the hospital bucket filled with new aquarium
>>water plus some fresh water. He stays under the rock. He doesn't
>>come out for anything. I try to feed him but I can't tell if he
>>eats. I put some rocks with algae in the bucket for him to nibble on.
>>
>>He's a plucky guy. Hope he keeps getting better. I figure I'll let
>>him stay in the hospital bucket with no more treatments (other than
>>water changes) for a few days. Then I'll decide what to do next.
>>Should I add a little salt to the water?
>>
>>Thanks people for your advice.
>>coolchinchilla
>
>
> Do you know what type of fish he is? I have 3 Melanochromis Cyaneorhabdos.
> Generally they are the deep blue that I would expect, however two of them do
> go a very pale blue - usually if there is any spawning going on. One in
> particular gets beaten on and goes into hiding until she recovers - normally
> accompanied by some additions to the tank. Now, I'm not saying that yours
> are spawning but Mbunas can lose colour if they are not the dominant fish in
> the tank.
>
> As he appears to be getting better I would leave him in the hospital bucket
> with no further treatment for a few days and observe him.
>
> Gill
>
>
I'm with Gill. Leave him be - I agree that he's still healing. The
rocks with algae are great. He's hanging out in his cave because that's
what insecure mbuna do. I'm sure he's grateful for the cover.

He's probably pale because he's stressed. Interventions like salt dips
are good medicine if you're treating something specific, but remember
his problem is most likely injury. Try to make his life a bit more
stable with no stressors but the ever-important water changes and see if
he doesn't color up better in a few more days.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[coolchinchilla]

Gill Passman wrote:
>
> Do you know what type of fish he is?

Studying pics of mbunas, my best guess is that he is an electric
blue Hap (Sciaenochromis fryeri) I know he's a he because I remember
the previous owner pointing him out with his gray-colored mate.

> Mbunas can lose colour if they are not the dominant fish in
> the tank.

Good to know.

> As he appears to be getting better I would leave him in the hospital bucket
> with no further treatment for a few days and observe him.


Will do. :-)

coolchinchilla

[coolchinchilla]

Elaine T wrote:
> I'm with Gill. Leave him be - I agree that he's still healing. The
> rocks with algae are great. He's hanging out in his cave because that's
> what insecure mbuna do. I'm sure he's grateful for the cover.
>
> He's probably pale because he's stressed. Interventions like salt dips
> are good medicine if you're treating something specific, but remember
> his problem is most likely injury. Try to make his life a bit more
> stable with no stressors but the ever-important water changes and see if
> he doesn't color up better in a few more days.


Funny you should mention stressors....

I took out the cave in the hospital bucket so I could see how my
blue guy was doing. I must have scared him to pieces because he
zoomed around the bucket, lept 2 feet in the air and landed on the
floor. Sure startled me. I put him back in the bucket and put the
rock back in. Then he jumped 2 feet straight up and landed back in
the bucket. I've never seen a fish jump like that. <drop jaw>
Amazing! Scared me. Anyway, I sure made it VERY stressful for him
today. Didn't mean to. Poor guy.

I have some frozen brine shrimp. I put a little in after he landed
on the floor. He didn't touch it but that could be because of so
much trauma. I put some fresh stones that had a lot of algae on it
near his hiding place. He does seem to eat the algae -- or at least
the algae is gone within two days. I took out some water, put some
aquarium water and fresh water in his bucket along with a little
stress coat and stress zyme. I put 2-3 cichlid pellets in for him as
well. I covered the bucket this time.

Thanks for the help!
coolchinchilla

[Elaine T]

coolchinchilla wrote:
> Elaine T wrote:
>
>> I'm with Gill. Leave him be - I agree that he's still healing. The
>> rocks with algae are great. He's hanging out in his cave because
>> that's what insecure mbuna do. I'm sure he's grateful for the cover.
>>
>> He's probably pale because he's stressed. Interventions like salt
>> dips are good medicine if you're treating something specific, but
>> remember his problem is most likely injury. Try to make his life a
>> bit more stable with no stressors but the ever-important water changes
>> and see if he doesn't color up better in a few more days.
>
>
>
> Funny you should mention stressors....
>
> I took out the cave in the hospital bucket so I could see how my blue
> guy was doing. I must have scared him to pieces because he zoomed around
> the bucket, lept 2 feet in the air and landed on the floor. Sure
> startled me. I put him back in the bucket and put the rock back in. Then
> he jumped 2 feet straight up and landed back in the bucket. I've never
> seen a fish jump like that. <drop jaw> Amazing! Scared me. Anyway, I
> sure made it VERY stressful for him today. Didn't mean to. Poor guy.
>
> I have some frozen brine shrimp. I put a little in after he landed on
> the floor. He didn't touch it but that could be because of so much
> trauma. I put some fresh stones that had a lot of algae on it near his
> hiding place. He does seem to eat the algae -- or at least the algae is
> gone within two days. I took out some water, put some aquarium water and
> fresh water in his bucket along with a little stress coat and stress
> zyme. I put 2-3 cichlid pellets in for him as well. I covered the bucket
> this time.
>
> Thanks for the help!
> coolchinchilla

Wow! I've never seen a fish jump quite that high either. Shows you how
important his little cave is. Covering the bucket is a good plan. I
assume you've used something clear or are letting enough light in so he
can see to eat.

It's hard to not worry about a sick fish, but you've really done all the
right things. Now, you just have to give him some time to rest and
recuperate.

You mentioned in your other post that he's an S. freyeri. I used to
keep and breed S. freyeri. When you said mbuna, I was thinking of fish
from lake Malawi which scrape algae from rocks - there are plenty of
blue ones. S. freyeri is Tanganyikan and not an algae eater, but rather
a predator. Frozen brine shrimp are definately a good food to try. You
could also try frozen bloodworms, glassworms, live brine shrimp, or
freeze-dried krill. Mine were particlarly fond of bloodworms.

If you have another male S. freyeri, that may be the source of the
trouble. I wouldn't try to keep more than one male S. freyeri in a 30
gallon tank. You could keep a male and a few females as a breeding
colony but it would be hard on their tankmates. Thinking about it, I
really wouldn't keep more than one male of any African cichlid species
in a 30 gallon tank.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Gill Passman]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
...
> coolchinchilla wrote:
> > Elaine T wrote:
> >
> >> I'm with Gill. Leave him be - I agree that he's still healing. The
> >> rocks with algae are great. He's hanging out in his cave because
> >> that's what insecure mbuna do. I'm sure he's grateful for the cover.
> >>
> >> He's probably pale because he's stressed. Interventions like salt
> >> dips are good medicine if you're treating something specific, but
> >> remember his problem is most likely injury. Try to make his life a
> >> bit more stable with no stressors but the ever-important water changes
> >> and see if he doesn't color up better in a few more days.
> >
> >
> >
> > Funny you should mention stressors....
> >
> > I took out the cave in the hospital bucket so I could see how my blue
> > guy was doing. I must have scared him to pieces because he zoomed around
> > the bucket, lept 2 feet in the air and landed on the floor. Sure
> > startled me. I put him back in the bucket and put the rock back in. Then
> > he jumped 2 feet straight up and landed back in the bucket. I've never
> > seen a fish jump like that. <drop jaw> Amazing! Scared me. Anyway, I
> > sure made it VERY stressful for him today. Didn't mean to. Poor guy.
> >
> > I have some frozen brine shrimp. I put a little in after he landed on
> > the floor. He didn't touch it but that could be because of so much
> > trauma. I put some fresh stones that had a lot of algae on it near his
> > hiding place. He does seem to eat the algae -- or at least the algae is
> > gone within two days. I took out some water, put some aquarium water and
> > fresh water in his bucket along with a little stress coat and stress
> > zyme. I put 2-3 cichlid pellets in for him as well. I covered the bucket
> > this time.
> >
> > Thanks for the help!
> > coolchinchilla
>
> Wow! I've never seen a fish jump quite that high either. Shows you how
> important his little cave is. Covering the bucket is a good plan. I
> assume you've used something clear or are letting enough light in so he
> can see to eat.
>
> It's hard to not worry about a sick fish, but you've really done all the
> right things. Now, you just have to give him some time to rest and
> recuperate.
>
> You mentioned in your other post that he's an S. freyeri. I used to
> keep and breed S. freyeri. When you said mbuna, I was thinking of fish
> from lake Malawi which scrape algae from rocks - there are plenty of
> blue ones. S. freyeri is Tanganyikan and not an algae eater, but rather
> a predator. Frozen brine shrimp are definately a good food to try. You
> could also try frozen bloodworms, glassworms, live brine shrimp, or
> freeze-dried krill. Mine were particlarly fond of bloodworms.
>
> If you have another male S. freyeri, that may be the source of the
> trouble. I wouldn't try to keep more than one male S. freyeri in a 30
> gallon tank. You could keep a male and a few females as a breeding
> colony but it would be hard on their tankmates. Thinking about it, I
> really wouldn't keep more than one male of any African cichlid species
> in a 30 gallon tank.
>
> --
> Elaine T __
> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

I was suprised when you described him as a Hap - don't know for sure but I
thought it was the Mbuna's that would eat the algae being mainly vegetarian
rather than the Haps - I have only ever seen my Mbunas graze and the fry
generally do nothing other than graze on the algae and are growing apace -
in fact I am now having to supplement the Pl*cos diet because of the
competition - might have to move him to a tank were algae is in more
plentiful supply if I can ever catch him without tearing down the tank.

My Mbunas quite frequently jump out of the water but fortunately the tank is
covered so I've never had one jump right out. But it can be quite weird
sitting at the computer to suddenly hear very loud splashes. Feeding time I
quite often get soaked (as does the floor) as in their enthuisasm to get the
food they do jump clean out of the water.

When it comes to feeding, mine being Mbunas plus two Peacocks, live on a
diet of Spirulina Cichlid sticks and frozen Brine Shrimp. If you have Mbunas
in the tank feeding Blood Worm or any very rich in protein food is not a
good idea as it will lead, I understand, to Malawi Bloat. Brine shrimp seems
to me to be a good compromise - I understand that Krill could also be an
option but haven't tried it yet.

Gill

[coolchinchilla]

Elaine T wrote:

> Wow! I've never seen a fish jump quite that high either. Shows you how
> important his little cave is. Covering the bucket is a good plan. I
> assume you've used something clear or are letting enough light in so he
> can see to eat.
>
> It's hard to not worry about a sick fish, but you've really done all the
> right things. Now, you just have to give him some time to rest and
> recuperate.

Thanks. I'll wait and let him be. Today I gave him some pellets
and I changed his water. Didn't want to threaten him so he'd jump
again.

> You mentioned in your other post that he's an S. freyeri. I used to
> keep and breed S. freyeri.

Maybe I'm mistaken. I'm new in this hobby so all the blue cichlids
kind of look the same to me. :-| I was in the fish store today and
a cichlid called blue ahli (sp?) looked like my guy. Is that the
same as an S. freyeri? It seems that each cichlid has about 3
common names and 3 scientific names.

Here's a link that looks like my guy. http://tinyurl.com/88nba One
pic of the blue ahli is almost solid blue colored and the other has
dark vertical stripes. My blue guy has the stripes.

> When you said mbuna, I was thinking of fish
> from lake Malawi which scrape algae from rocks - there are plenty of
> blue ones.

The guy I got the fish from said they were Malawi Mbunas, so that's
what I understood.

> If you have another male S. freyeri, that may be the source of the
> trouble.

No. I'm sure there's only one male with his mate. But I don't know
the genders of the rest of the folks in the tank.

I'm sure I have 2 yellow labs & 1 blue johanni. Then I think I have
4 red zebras (Pseudotropheus estherae) one of which is the tank
bully. There's one little lemon yellow cutie and I have no idea
what kind he is. He always hides in a cave and barely sticks his
little nose out.

coolchinchilla