Tap water copper and fish stress?

[Elaine T]

I don't know if anyone remembers, but I asked about darting otocinclus
after water changes a while ago. I've now lost all of my otos in the
tap water tanks but none in in the 1/2 RO tank. I suppose it could be
pH and hardness, but I doubt it since the darting was always after water
changes and the pH and hardness stayed stable.

So, I talked to one of the reef geeks at LFS and he said the reason I
might be seeing stress after water changes is the copper, selenium, and
phosphate in local tap water. He said the entire store (mostly marine)
is on buffered RO water because they were losing too much livestock.

The water company just came out with the 2004 reports and says there's
<5 ppb selenium, but 10 ppb copper. I'm not sure I believe the selenium
number - California is notorious for selenium in the water - but I have
no way to test at my tap. I can't measure any phosphate at all on my
Salifert kit.

Could copper or tiny amounts of selenium in my tap water be causing otos
to stress and die? Anyone in a similar situation? What other tap water
contaminants do I look for on my water company report that could do this?

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[NetMax]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
. com...
<snip>
> Could copper or tiny amounts of selenium in my tap water be causing otos
> to stress and die? Anyone in a similar situation? What other tap water
> contaminants do I look for on my water company report that could do this?

I can't comment on the absolute numbers, but an agitated condition after a
water change is associated with 'sharp' water parameters, some of which are
the type which dissipate (why aged water was always so desirable), and
others are chemicals which make their way into the system (sometimes
deliberately added). This is where carbon pre-filters are an asset, or
buffering RO as you described. I've heard of this from breeders along the
coast in California. Their local clubs might be the best source of
fish-pertinent information. Sorry I couldn't be more help.
--
www.NetMax.tk

> --
> Elaine T __
> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Derek Benson]

On Wed, 06 Jul 2005 03:35:25 GMT, Elaine T >
wrote:

>I don't know if anyone remembers, but I asked about darting otocinclus
>after water changes a while ago. I've now lost all of my otos in the
>tap water tanks but none in in the 1/2 RO tank. I suppose it could be
>pH and hardness, but I doubt it since the darting was always after water
>changes and the pH and hardness stayed stable.
>
>So, I talked to one of the reef geeks at LFS and he said the reason I
>might be seeing stress after water changes is the copper, selenium, and
>phosphate in local tap water. He said the entire store (mostly marine)
>is on buffered RO water because they were losing too much livestock.
>
>The water company just came out with the 2004 reports and says there's
><5 ppb selenium, but 10 ppb copper. I'm not sure I believe the selenium
>number - California is notorious for selenium in the water - but I have
>no way to test at my tap. I can't measure any phosphate at all on my
>Salifert kit.
>
>Could copper or tiny amounts of selenium in my tap water be causing otos
>to stress and die? Anyone in a similar situation? What other tap water
>contaminants do I look for on my water company report that could do this?

Using laterite in this tank, are you?

-Derek

[Elaine T]

Derek Benson wrote:
> On Wed, 06 Jul 2005 03:35:25 GMT, Elaine T >
> wrote:
>
>
>>I don't know if anyone remembers, but I asked about darting otocinclus
>>after water changes a while ago. I've now lost all of my otos in the
>>tap water tanks but none in in the 1/2 RO tank. I suppose it could be
>>pH and hardness, but I doubt it since the darting was always after water
>>changes and the pH and hardness stayed stable.
>>
>>So, I talked to one of the reef geeks at LFS and he said the reason I
>>might be seeing stress after water changes is the copper, selenium, and
>>phosphate in local tap water. He said the entire store (mostly marine)
>>is on buffered RO water because they were losing too much livestock.
>>
>>The water company just came out with the 2004 reports and says there's
>><5 ppb selenium, but 10 ppb copper. I'm not sure I believe the selenium
>>number - California is notorious for selenium in the water - but I have
>>no way to test at my tap. I can't measure any phosphate at all on my
>>Salifert kit.
>>
>>Could copper or tiny amounts of selenium in my tap water be causing otos
>>to stress and die? Anyone in a similar situation? What other tap water
>>contaminants do I look for on my water company report that could do this?
>
>
> Using laterite in this tank, are you?
>
> -Derek

A mix of Flourite and Eco Complete in all of my tanks. But I also had
problems with goldfish jumping out of my pond when I first filled it and
it has no substrate. Chemi-pure solved the problem. I've also used
powdered laterite in gravel when I lived on the East coast and didn't
have problms like this.

Why do you ask about laterite?

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Derek Benson]

On Wed, 06 Jul 2005 03:35:25 GMT, Elaine T >
wrote:

>I don't know if anyone remembers, but I asked about darting otocinclus
>after water changes a while ago. I've now lost all of my otos in the
>tap water tanks but none in in the 1/2 RO tank. I suppose it could be
>pH and hardness, but I doubt it since the darting was always after water
>changes and the pH and hardness stayed stable.
>
>So, I talked to one of the reef geeks at LFS and he said the reason I
>might be seeing stress after water changes is the copper, selenium, and
>phosphate in local tap water. He said the entire store (mostly marine)
>is on buffered RO water because they were losing too much livestock.
>
>The water company just came out with the 2004 reports and says there's
><5 ppb selenium, but 10 ppb copper. I'm not sure I believe the selenium
>number - California is notorious for selenium in the water - but I have
>no way to test at my tap. I can't measure any phosphate at all on my
>Salifert kit.
>
>Could copper or tiny amounts of selenium in my tap water be causing otos
>to stress and die? Anyone in a similar situation? What other tap water
>contaminants do I look for on my water company report that could do this?

Peter Hunnam, in his book The Living Aquarium (originally published in
Sweden) writes the following concerning metal poisoning:

"Heavy metal poisoning of fishes will cause severe damage, notably to
gill tissue. ... Early symptoms are an increased ventilation rate,
inflamed gills, and gasping at the surface, with a danger of death by
suffocation." Metals he mentions as examples are copper, zinc and
lead.

He writes this about Chlorine poisoning:

"Fishes and inverts are irritated by chlorine, especially on the gills
and skin ... Symptoms in fishes are restless movement and a loss of
equilibrium."

He writes this about ammonia:

"The symptoms of ammonia poisoning include an increase in mucus
production, swollen and fused gill filaments and hemorrhaging spots."

What I get from reading his descriptions, and your otos darting
around, is that the otos are irritated, like their skin is itching;
this sounds more like the chlorine poisoning. Or do you think they
dart around simply as a stress reaction? Like otos react that way when
they're stressed or distubed or scared while a lot of other fish will
often go hide in a corner of the tank or in the plants.

But you use a chlorine remover with new water, so there at least in
theory shouldn't be any chlorine. Do you always use a water
conditioner that binds heavy metals, like Tetra Aqua Safe or whatever?
These remove copper, don't they? I don't know if they do or not but
I've always thought that copper is one of the metals removed.

Oh, you wrote above 10 ppb copper in the water report. Is this 10
parts per billion? So this is 0.01 pp million? If this is the case I
think it must be an incredibly small amount of copper. Copper sulfate
(or whatever) based meds must put a lot more copper into the water
than this, I think.

Is there a lot of stuff listed in the water report? if it's not 52 or
88 different elements, but 10 or 12 or 20 different things listed, can
you post the list of stuff here?

-Derek

[Lisa]

Hi, Elaine -

I live in Central Coast, CA, and use RO water reclaimed with RO Right
from Kent. I have managed to keep 4 otos out of 5. I lost one, I
think, in the 50-G community tank, but I never saw a body. The other 4
(2 in the 50-G community tank, and 2 in a 10-gallon divided) are all
growing and healthy. I do a 20-30% change in all tanks, each week.

Actually, I plan to move one or both of the two divided Otos in the
beta tank to the community tank. I am concerned that there isn't
enough algae in the divided tank as compared to the community tank.
However, all Otos are fat and happy, so far, so I have not been very
motivated to move the ones in the split tank! I like the Otos, but I
wish they were easier to see. They always hide all the time when I try
to look. Waaah!

- Lisa in CA

[Elaine T]

Derek Benson wrote:

<snip>

> Oh, you wrote above 10 ppb copper in the water report. Is this 10
> parts per billion? So this is 0.01 pp million? If this is the case I
> think it must be an incredibly small amount of copper. Copper sulfate
> (or whatever) based meds must put a lot more copper into the water
> than this, I think.

Yes, this is 0.01 pp million. It does seem low to cause such trouble.
I think 1-10 ppm is more typical for copper meds.
>
> Is there a lot of stuff listed in the water report? if it's not 52 or
> 88 different elements, but 10 or 12 or 20 different things listed, can
> you post the list of stuff here?
>
> -Derek

The chlorine info is very interesting. Thanks for looking it up.

I do see increased ventilation after water changes in the more tolerant
fish - my guppies, rasboras, and SAE show it. I use AmQuel for water
changes since I have chloramines. I tried Tetra Aqua Safe and still saw
the darting behavior. Plus the water surface gets gross and bubbly from
the slimecoat compounds. (Ew!)

I don't get much help from carbon in the filter, which doesn't support
the chlorine/chloramine idea. Chemi-Pure (ion exchange resin plus
carbon) in the filter will reduce the darting and/or jumping out of the
tank behaviors after water changes.

Here's my water - good for my guppies and koi, not so good for Amazon
fish. Unless I give a range, these are averages measured at the
effluent of my local treatment plant. There's a huge list of
non-detected contaminants that I didn't bother to add. The water
typically reeks of chlorine and sometimes tastes metallic.

I realized as I was putting this together that there is detergent
residue in the water. I wonder if it could be causing some if not all
of the trouble. I would expect detergent to adsorb onto carbon very
easily but maybe I'm wrong.

Chloramines 2.5 mg/l (range 1.32-2.94)
Total organic carbon 2.5 mg/l
Total trihalomethanes 61.5 ug/l highest running average
Haloacetic acids 25.375 ug/l
pH - laboratory 8.1
Specific Conductance 907 uS/cm
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) 515 mg/L
Color 3
Corrosivity 0.519 (non-corrosive)
Turbidity 0.1 NTU
Foaming Agents (Detergents) 0.14 mg/l
Hardness - Total as CaCo3 231 mg/L
Hardness - Total in Grains/Gal 13.4 gr/Gal
Calcium 67.2 mg/L
Magnesium 14.9 mg/L
Sodium 76.6 mg/L
Potassium 4.08 mg/L
Alkalinity - Total as CaCO3 107 mg/L
Carbonate (CO3) 0 mg/L
Bicarbonate (HCO3) 129 mg/L
Sulfate 172 mg/L
Chloride 87.2 mg/L
Nitrate < 2 mg/L (my test kit agrees with this)
Fluoride 0.25 mg/L
Aluminum min < 10, max 20 ug/l
Antimony <1 ug/l
Arsenic <2 ug/l
Barium 82 ug/l
Beryllium <1 ug/l
Cadmium <1 ug/l
Chromium <1 ug/l
Copper 6-15 ug/l (avg 9.5)
Iron <50 - 131 ug/l
Lead <4 ug/l
Manganese <2 - 3.1 ug/l
Mercury <1 ug/l
Nickel 2.4 ug/l
Selenium <5 ug/l
Silver <1 ug/l
Vanadium <3 ug/l
Zinc <8 ug/L
Langelier Index 0.52
Aggressiveness Index 12.3
Silica 8.8 mg/l
Ortho Phosphate < 0.5 mg/l (I tested this and got zero)
Boron 112 ug/L
Nitrite as Nitrogen < 0.01 mg/l
Cyanide < 0.015 mg/L (good thing, that. ;-) )
Bromide < 0.1 mg/L
Perchlorate < 4 ug/L

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Elaine T]

Lisa wrote:
> Hi, Elaine -
>
> I live in Central Coast, CA, and use RO water reclaimed with RO Right
> from Kent. I have managed to keep 4 otos out of 5. I lost one, I
> think, in the 50-G community tank, but I never saw a body. The other 4
> (2 in the 50-G community tank, and 2 in a 10-gallon divided) are all
> growing and healthy. I do a 20-30% change in all tanks, each week.
>
> Actually, I plan to move one or both of the two divided Otos in the
> beta tank to the community tank. I am concerned that there isn't
> enough algae in the divided tank as compared to the community tank.
> However, all Otos are fat and happy, so far, so I have not been very
> motivated to move the ones in the split tank! I like the Otos, but I
> wish they were easier to see. They always hide all the time when I try
> to look. Waaah!
>
> - Lisa in CA
>
I wish I could afford an RO unit. I'm adding Chemi-pure to all the
tanks in the hopes that it will help.

My two O. vittata (or some similar species) in the one tank where
they're happy are often suckered right onto the glass or sitting on
hygrophila leaves. No problems seeing those guys at all. I have one O.
flexilis who's shyer and I only see him once or twice a week. I was
hoping he'd shoal with the O. vittata but I think he'd prefer some more
flexilis buddies. I'll get more flexilis if I ever see them again
because they're handsome fish.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Derek Benson]

On Fri, 08 Jul 2005 21:20:44 GMT, Elaine T >
wrote:

>Langelier Index 0.52
>Aggressiveness Index 12.3
>Silica 8.8 mg/l
>Ortho Phosphate < 0.5 mg/l (I tested this and got zero)
>Boron 112 ug/L
>Nitrite as Nitrogen < 0.01 mg/l
>Cyanide < 0.015 mg/L (good thing, that. ;-) )
>Bromide < 0.1 mg/L
>Perchlorate < 4 ug/L

Perchlorate is supposedly pretty wicked stuff, I have this from
someone at work because we use some of it, although in my specific job
I've never handled it.

The California Health Services Department has a notification level of
6 ug/L (this is the same as 6 ppb, right?) on Perchlorate, so they
recommend to water companies that customers be notified if the level
should be that high.

Apparently it takes huge amounts of the stuff dissolved in water to be
lethal to fish. A test has been done with the fathead minnow,
Pimephales promelas, which gave a level of 614 mg/L to be lethal. The
LOEC, Lowest Observed Effect Level, was 280 mg/L. This test can be
found at the following link if you want to download it:

http://cluin.org/contaminantfocus/default.focus/sec/perchlorate/cat/Toxicology/

Scroll down the page to where it says Ecological Impacts, the first
link there is the test, a PDF document.

The Environmental Protection Agency has for Cyanide a level of 0.2
mg/L as the max allowable in drinking water, so you're well under that
amount.

-Derek

[Steve]

Derek Benson wrote:
> On Fri, 08 Jul 2005 21:20:44 GMT, Elaine T >
> wrote:
>
>
>>Langelier Index 0.52
>>Aggressiveness Index 12.3
>>Silica 8.8 mg/l
>>Ortho Phosphate < 0.5 mg/l (I tested this and got zero)
>>Boron 112 ug/L
>>Nitrite as Nitrogen < 0.01 mg/l
>>Cyanide < 0.015 mg/L (good thing, that. ;-) )
>>Bromide < 0.1 mg/L
>>Perchlorate < 4 ug/L
>
>
> Perchlorate is supposedly pretty wicked stuff, I have this from
> someone at work because we use some of it, although in my specific job
> I've never handled it.
>
> The California Health Services Department has a notification level of
> 6 ug/L (this is the same as 6 ppb, right?) on Perchlorate, so they
> recommend to water companies that customers be notified if the level
> should be that high.
>
> Apparently it takes huge amounts of the stuff dissolved in water to be
> lethal to fish. A test has been done with the fathead minnow,
> Pimephales promelas, which gave a level of 614 mg/L to be lethal. The
> LOEC, Lowest Observed Effect Level, was 280 mg/L. This test can be
> found at the following link if you want to download it:
>
> http://cluin.org/contaminantfocus/default.focus/sec/perchlorate/cat/Toxicology/
>
> Scroll down the page to where it says Ecological Impacts, the first
> link there is the test, a PDF document.
>
> The Environmental Protection Agency has for Cyanide a level of 0.2
> mg/L as the max allowable in drinking water, so you're well under that
> amount.
>
> -Derek

Perchlorate < 4 ug/L may just reflect a lower detection limit (?). If
so, it's no cause for concern.
Steve

[Elaine T]

Steve wrote:
> Derek Benson wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 08 Jul 2005 21:20:44 GMT, Elaine T >
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Langelier Index 0.52
>>> Aggressiveness Index 12.3
>>> Silica 8.8 mg/l
>>> Ortho Phosphate < 0.5 mg/l (I tested this and got zero)
>>> Boron 112 ug/L
>>> Nitrite as Nitrogen < 0.01 mg/l
>>> Cyanide < 0.015 mg/L (good thing, that. ;-) )
>>> Bromide < 0.1 mg/L
>>> Perchlorate < 4 ug/L
>>
>>
>>
>> Perchlorate is supposedly pretty wicked stuff, I have this from
>> someone at work because we use some of it, although in my specific job
>> I've never handled it.
>>
>> The California Health Services Department has a notification level of
>> 6 ug/L (this is the same as 6 ppb, right?) on Perchlorate, so they
>> recommend to water companies that customers be notified if the level
>> should be that high.
>>
>> Apparently it takes huge amounts of the stuff dissolved in water to be
>> lethal to fish. A test has been done with the fathead minnow,
>> Pimephales promelas, which gave a level of 614 mg/L to be lethal. The
>> LOEC, Lowest Observed Effect Level, was 280 mg/L. This test can be
>> found at the following link if you want to download it:
>>
>> http://cluin.org/contaminantfocus/default.focus/sec/perchlorate/cat/Toxicology/
>>
>>
>> Scroll down the page to where it says Ecological Impacts, the first
>> link there is the test, a PDF document.
>>
>> The Environmental Protection Agency has for Cyanide a level of 0.2
>> mg/L as the max allowable in drinking water, so you're well under that
>> amount.
>>
>> -Derek
>
>
> Perchlorate < 4 ug/L may just reflect a lower detection limit (?). If
> so, it's no cause for concern.
> Steve

I think it is a lower detection limit, particularly if the notification
level is 6 ppb. And yes, ppb is the same as ug/ml where ug represents
micrograms (no mu in standard ascii, of course). I'm still wondering
about the detergent residue. That seems more likely to irritate fish
than anything else in that list.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com