Angelfish lost balance

[Nikki Casali]

I just found my 3 year old angelfish doing somersaults with the lights
turned off. I have noticed recently him doing strange stuff, like the
odd somersault, but now he's constantly rotating round trying to gain
balance. He looks completely healthy otherwise. Anyone have any ideas if
there's anything I can do to help him?

Nikki

[Nikki Casali]

Nikki Casali wrote:

> I just found my 3 year old angelfish doing somersaults with the lights
> turned off. I have noticed recently him doing strange stuff, like the
> odd somersault, but now he's constantly rotating round trying to gain
> balance. He looks completely healthy otherwise. Anyone have any ideas if
> there's anything I can do to help him?

Some sort of neurological problem? I have noticed on many occasions that
he has an issue turning left, so he somersaults and does a right, like a
swimmer at the end of a length. I have had the light back on temporarily
and he has gained control somewhat. Angelfish seem to go to sleep when
the lights are off and switch off their visual system. To some extent
they need to feel around, even when the lights are back on, and "wake
up" gradually over 15 minutes or so.

I've put in some activated carbon, switched on the UV lamp, turned up
the temperature, and a left a small light on, just in case. Now that I
know he loses complete control at night, I'll have to look into a
possible cause and a cure if possible.

Nikki

[NetMax]

"Nikki Casali" > wrote in message
...
> Nikki Casali wrote:
>
>> I just found my 3 year old angelfish doing somersaults with the lights
>> turned off. I have noticed recently him doing strange stuff, like the
>> odd somersault, but now he's constantly rotating round trying to gain
>> balance. He looks completely healthy otherwise. Anyone have any ideas
>> if there's anything I can do to help him?
>
> Some sort of neurological problem? I have noticed on many occasions
> that he has an issue turning left, so he somersaults and does a right,
> like a swimmer at the end of a length. I have had the light back on
> temporarily and he has gained control somewhat. Angelfish seem to go to
> sleep when the lights are off and switch off their visual system. To
> some extent they need to feel around, even when the lights are back on,
> and "wake up" gradually over 15 minutes or so.
>
> I've put in some activated carbon, switched on the UV lamp, turned up
> the temperature, and a left a small light on, just in case. Now that I
> know he loses complete control at night, I'll have to look into a
> possible cause and a cure if possible.
>
> Nikki


Just a thought, modify your filtration system so that there is less
turbulence. I wonder if the fish's equilibrium would be influenced if
the filters were turned off temporarily (just as a test sometime, when
the lights are off). This allows navigation by feel, which is normally
masked by filter noise & turbulence. This won't solve your problem,
just gather information.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Dick]

On Fri, 08 Jul 2005 22:12:28 +0100, Nikki Casali
> wrote:

>I just found my 3 year old angelfish doing somersaults with the lights
>turned off. I have noticed recently him doing strange stuff, like the
>odd somersault, but now he's constantly rotating round trying to gain
>balance. He looks completely healthy otherwise. Anyone have any ideas if
>there's anything I can do to help him?
>
>Nikki

I moved 2 angelfish to a separate tank and over the coming month both
lost their orientation skills and died. I have assumed it was a swim
bladder infection.

dick

[bassett]

He doesn't, say , what the filters consist of "net max" My Angles hate
strong current, by way of a power head, but normal canister filter inlet //
output , like UGF's don't seem to bother them.
Do you think that perhaps his Angle might have miss judged the end of the
tank and hit the glass. ?? If the fish has trouble maintaining his
equilibrium, it could be somesort of balance problem.
Increasing the temperature, will allow the fish to increase it's heart beat
and increase the blood flow, [ or is it the other way round.] allowing more
blood to the brain, which might have some effect on his balance.
But the reality is , it will ether get better or die, I'm afraid.
bassett


"NetMax" > wrote in message
.. .

> Just a thought, modify your filtration system so that there is less
> turbulence. I wonder if the fish's equilibrium would be influenced if the
> filters were turned off temporarily (just as a test sometime, when the
> lights are off). This allows navigation by feel, which is normally masked
> by filter noise & turbulence. This won't solve your problem, just gather
> information.
> --
> www.NetMax.tk


> "Nikki Casali" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Nikki Casali wrote:
>>
>>> I just found my 3 year old angelfish doing somersaults with the lights
>>> turned off. I have noticed recently him doing strange stuff, like the
>>> odd somersault, but now he's constantly rotating round trying to gain
>>> balance. He looks completely healthy otherwise. Anyone have any ideas if
>>> there's anything I can do to help him?
>>
>> Some sort of neurological problem? I have noticed on many occasions that
>> he has an issue turning left, so he somersaults and does a right, like a
>> swimmer at the end of a length. I have had the light back on temporarily
>> and he has gained control somewhat. Angelfish seem to go to sleep when
>> the lights are off and switch off their visual system. To some extent
>> they need to feel around, even when the lights are back on, and "wake up"
>> gradually over 15 minutes or so.
>>
>> I've put in some activated carbon, switched on the UV lamp, turned up the
>> temperature, and a left a small light on, just in case. Now that I know
>> he loses complete control at night, I'll have to look into a possible
>> cause and a cure if possible.
>>
>> Nikki
>
>>
>

[Nikki Casali]

NetMax wrote:

> "Nikki Casali" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Nikki Casali wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I just found my 3 year old angelfish doing somersaults with the lights
>>>turned off. I have noticed recently him doing strange stuff, like the
>>>odd somersault, but now he's constantly rotating round trying to gain
>>>balance. He looks completely healthy otherwise. Anyone have any ideas
>>>if there's anything I can do to help him?
>>
>>Some sort of neurological problem? I have noticed on many occasions
>>that he has an issue turning left, so he somersaults and does a right,
>>like a swimmer at the end of a length. I have had the light back on
>>temporarily and he has gained control somewhat. Angelfish seem to go to
>>sleep when the lights are off and switch off their visual system. To
>>some extent they need to feel around, even when the lights are back on,
>>and "wake up" gradually over 15 minutes or so.
>>
>>I've put in some activated carbon, switched on the UV lamp, turned up
>>the temperature, and a left a small light on, just in case. Now that I
>>know he loses complete control at night, I'll have to look into a
>>possible cause and a cure if possible.
>>
>>Nikki
>
>
>
> Just a thought, modify your filtration system so that there is less
> turbulence. I wonder if the fish's equilibrium would be influenced if
> the filters were turned off temporarily (just as a test sometime, when
> the lights are off). This allows navigation by feel, which is normally
> masked by filter noise & turbulence. This won't solve your problem,
> just gather information.

I'll check that out. The fish appears to have a very slight paralysis.
Could be anything. Even a fish version of MS. I could imagine him too
being depressed over the recent loss of his breeding partner which I had
to euthanize because of a tumour or egg impaction. Do fish show signs of
loss? He's all alone now!

Nikki

[NetMax]

"Nikki Casali" > wrote in message
...
> NetMax wrote:
>
>> "Nikki Casali" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>Nikki Casali wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>I just found my 3 year old angelfish doing somersaults with the
>>>>lights turned off. I have noticed recently him doing strange stuff,
>>>>like the odd somersault, but now he's constantly rotating round
>>>>trying to gain balance. He looks completely healthy otherwise. Anyone
>>>>have any ideas if there's anything I can do to help him?
>>>
>>>Some sort of neurological problem? I have noticed on many occasions
>>>that he has an issue turning left, so he somersaults and does a right,
>>>like a swimmer at the end of a length. I have had the light back on
>>>temporarily and he has gained control somewhat. Angelfish seem to go
>>>to sleep when the lights are off and switch off their visual system.
>>>To some extent they need to feel around, even when the lights are back
>>>on, and "wake up" gradually over 15 minutes or so.
>>>
>>>I've put in some activated carbon, switched on the UV lamp, turned up
>>>the temperature, and a left a small light on, just in case. Now that I
>>>know he loses complete control at night, I'll have to look into a
>>>possible cause and a cure if possible.
>>>
>>>Nikki
>>
>>
>>
>> Just a thought, modify your filtration system so that there is less
>> turbulence. I wonder if the fish's equilibrium would be influenced if
>> the filters were turned off temporarily (just as a test sometime, when
>> the lights are off). This allows navigation by feel, which is
>> normally masked by filter noise & turbulence. This won't solve your
>> problem, just gather information.
>
> I'll check that out. The fish appears to have a very slight paralysis.
> Could be anything. Even a fish version of MS. I could imagine him too
> being depressed over the recent loss of his breeding partner which I
> had to euthanize because of a tumour or egg impaction. Do fish show
> signs of loss? He's all alone now!
>
> Nikki


Most cichlids which form breeding pairs will display reactions to the
loss of a partner. Ask any Oscar owner if their fish is temperamental.
However I don't think it would explain what you are seeing.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[NetMax]

I agree with your assessment. Whether it's due to a swim bladder problem
or something neurological, it's interesting that it occurs in twilight
only. This suggests that the problem is marginal, and the loss of visual
information is enough to throw the equilibrium off (just the speculation
of a hobbyist).

Restoring some information, such as vibrations through the lateral line
should help (by decreasing the turbulence in the water), but with the
limited vision in one eye, I suspect a bacterial disease in the brain or
around the cortex, and that's not likely to get better.
--
www.NetMax.tk

"bassett" > wrote in message
...
> He doesn't, say , what the filters consist of "net max" My Angles hate
> strong current, by way of a power head, but normal canister filter
> inlet // output , like UGF's don't seem to bother them.
> Do you think that perhaps his Angle might have miss judged the end of
> the tank and hit the glass. ?? If the fish has trouble maintaining his
> equilibrium, it could be somesort of balance problem.
> Increasing the temperature, will allow the fish to increase it's heart
> beat and increase the blood flow, [ or is it the other way round.]
> allowing more blood to the brain, which might have some effect on his
> balance.
> But the reality is , it will ether get better or die, I'm afraid.
>
> bassett
>
>
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> .. .
>
>> Just a thought, modify your filtration system so that there is less
>> turbulence. I wonder if the fish's equilibrium would be influenced if
>> the filters were turned off temporarily (just as a test sometime, when
>> the lights are off). This allows navigation by feel, which is
>> normally masked by filter noise & turbulence. This won't solve your
>> problem, just gather information.
>> --
>> www.NetMax.tk
>
>
>> "Nikki Casali" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Nikki Casali wrote:
>>>
>>>> I just found my 3 year old angelfish doing somersaults with the
>>>> lights turned off. I have noticed recently him doing strange stuff,
>>>> like the odd somersault, but now he's constantly rotating round
>>>> trying to gain balance. He looks completely healthy otherwise.
>>>> Anyone have any ideas if there's anything I can do to help him?
>>>
>>> Some sort of neurological problem? I have noticed on many occasions
>>> that he has an issue turning left, so he somersaults and does a
>>> right, like a swimmer at the end of a length. I have had the light
>>> back on temporarily and he has gained control somewhat. Angelfish
>>> seem to go to sleep when the lights are off and switch off their
>>> visual system. To some extent they need to feel around, even when the
>>> lights are back on, and "wake up" gradually over 15 minutes or so.
>>>
>>> I've put in some activated carbon, switched on the UV lamp, turned up
>>> the temperature, and a left a small light on, just in case. Now that
>>> I know he loses complete control at night, I'll have to look into a
>>> possible cause and a cure if possible.
>>>
>>> Nikki
>>
>>>
>>
>
>

[Nikki Casali]

No, she doesn't say. The tank is a 330L tank. I have one small powerhead
placed very low in the tank to prevent detritus matter building up
between the plants, to circulate CO2 and O2 and to prevent
stratification of temperature. I have the external filter outlet at the
same end. These are all weak currents. They don't have much effect
beyond 1 foot. But that it will get better or die, is ever a true
statement ;-).

Nikki

bassett wrote:

> He doesn't, say , what the filters consist of "net max" My Angles hate
> strong current, by way of a power head, but normal canister filter inlet //
> output , like UGF's don't seem to bother them.
> Do you think that perhaps his Angle might have miss judged the end of the
> tank and hit the glass. ?? If the fish has trouble maintaining his
> equilibrium, it could be somesort of balance problem.
> Increasing the temperature, will allow the fish to increase it's heart beat
> and increase the blood flow, [ or is it the other way round.] allowing more
> blood to the brain, which might have some effect on his balance.
> But the reality is , it will ether get better or die, I'm afraid.
> bassett
>
>
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> .. .
>
>
>>Just a thought, modify your filtration system so that there is less
>>turbulence. I wonder if the fish's equilibrium would be influenced if the
>>filters were turned off temporarily (just as a test sometime, when the
>>lights are off). This allows navigation by feel, which is normally masked
>>by filter noise & turbulence. This won't solve your problem, just gather
>>information.
>>--
>>www.NetMax.tk
>
>
>
>>"Nikki Casali" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>>Nikki Casali wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>I just found my 3 year old angelfish doing somersaults with the lights
>>>>turned off. I have noticed recently him doing strange stuff, like the
>>>>odd somersault, but now he's constantly rotating round trying to gain
>>>>balance. He looks completely healthy otherwise. Anyone have any ideas if
>>>>there's anything I can do to help him?
>>>
>>>Some sort of neurological problem? I have noticed on many occasions that
>>>he has an issue turning left, so he somersaults and does a right, like a
>>>swimmer at the end of a length. I have had the light back on temporarily
>>>and he has gained control somewhat. Angelfish seem to go to sleep when
>>>the lights are off and switch off their visual system. To some extent
>>>they need to feel around, even when the lights are back on, and "wake up"
>>>gradually over 15 minutes or so.
>>>
>>>I've put in some activated carbon, switched on the UV lamp, turned up the
>>>temperature, and a left a small light on, just in case. Now that I know
>>>he loses complete control at night, I'll have to look into a possible
>>>cause and a cure if possible.
>>>
>>>Nikki
>>
>
>

[Nikki Casali]

NetMax wrote:

> I agree with your assessment. Whether it's due to a swim bladder problem
> or something neurological, it's interesting that it occurs in twilight
> only. This suggests that the problem is marginal, and the loss of visual
> information is enough to throw the equilibrium off (just the speculation
> of a hobbyist).
>
> Restoring some information, such as vibrations through the lateral line
> should help (by decreasing the turbulence in the water), but with the
> limited vision in one eye, I suspect a bacterial disease in the brain or
> around the cortex, and that's not likely to get better.

Yes, it seems the problem is exacerbated by dim light. Today, the
angelfish barely showed any problem with control. Last night, every so
often, it looked as if it got a rudder stuck full on and span out of
control, slowly and "majestically", if that's possible. There wasn't
much sign of panic. Suddenly, the rudder would became unstuck and normal
control would resume. Interesting. I also find that this angelfish
orients itself so that it points towards ambient light when the
fluorescents go out. This means you can find it listing at least 45
degrees. This has always been its "normal" behaviour, regardless of
recent events. It has no problem locating the food I put in the tank, so
I'm not sure if its vision is affected at all.

Nikki

[NetMax]

"Nikki Casali" > wrote in message
...
> NetMax wrote:
>
>> I agree with your assessment. Whether it's due to a swim bladder
>> problem or something neurological, it's interesting that it occurs in
>> twilight only. This suggests that the problem is marginal, and the
>> loss of visual information is enough to throw the equilibrium off
>> (just the speculation of a hobbyist).
>>
>> Restoring some information, such as vibrations through the lateral
>> line should help (by decreasing the turbulence in the water), but with
>> the limited vision in one eye, I suspect a bacterial disease in the
>> brain or around the cortex, and that's not likely to get better.
>
> Yes, it seems the problem is exacerbated by dim light. Today, the
> angelfish barely showed any problem with control. Last night, every so
> often, it looked as if it got a rudder stuck full on and span out of
> control, slowly and "majestically", if that's possible. There wasn't
> much sign of panic. Suddenly, the rudder would became unstuck and
> normal control would resume. Interesting. I also find that this
> angelfish orients itself so that it points towards ambient light when
> the fluorescents go out. This means you can find it listing at least 45
> degrees. This has always been its "normal" behaviour, regardless of
> recent events. It has no problem locating the food I put in the tank,
> so I'm not sure if its vision is affected at all.
>
> Nikki


Well, at least the listing is normal. Fish orient themselves according
to the source of the light. It's most noticeable with tall slow fish
like Angels.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Tynk]

bassett Jul 9, 8:18 am show options

Newsgroups: rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc
From: "bassett" > - Find messages by this
author
Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 22:18:18 +1000
Local: Sat,Jul 9 2005 8:18 am
Subject: Re: Angelfish lost balance
Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show
original | Report Abuse

He doesn't, say , what the filters consist of "net max" My Angles hate

strong current, by way of a power head, but normal canister filter
inlet //
output , like UGF's don't seem to bother them.

I agree.
I tried a power head once. It was horrible for them no matter where I
aimed it.
The Magnum350 canister filter doesn't bother them a bit.
They swim through the current streams no prob. They simply learned
quickly to turn their body to one side so the current hits them just so
and they cut right through it.
All my Angels do this.

[Tynk]

I wanted to add $.02 to my reply.
Some of my Angels seem to "ride the stream" on purpose.
However, I have a large, female marble veil that avoids all together.
I watch swim right up under it..looking at it and then she'll adjust
her pattern to avoid the jets.
Although when I'm at the tank she doesn't care about them and gets
herself blown over. Kind of funny because she's a fully grown veil
(longer fins than regular "standerd" Angels).
She'll be...oh there's Mom!...whoaaaah and it's all head over fins
until she rights herself.

[Nikki Casali]

Tynk wrote:

> I wanted to add $.02 to my reply.
> Some of my Angels seem to "ride the stream" on purpose.
> However, I have a large, female marble veil that avoids all together.
> I watch swim right up under it..looking at it and then she'll adjust
> her pattern to avoid the jets.
> Although when I'm at the tank she doesn't care about them and gets
> herself blown over. Kind of funny because she's a fully grown veil
> (longer fins than regular "standerd" Angels).
> She'll be...oh there's Mom!...whoaaaah and it's all head over fins
> until she rights herself.
>

Interesting. My angelfish that had the tumour and died, loved forcing
herself into the current from the powerhead. She seemed to gain some
relief from the physical exertion. Also, I think she found it easier to
keep upright in the stream, like an arrow flying through the air.

Nikki

[Elaine T]

Tynk wrote:
> I wanted to add $.02 to my reply.
> Some of my Angels seem to "ride the stream" on purpose.
> However, I have a large, female marble veil that avoids all together.
> I watch swim right up under it..looking at it and then she'll adjust
> her pattern to avoid the jets.
> Although when I'm at the tank she doesn't care about them and gets
> herself blown over. Kind of funny because she's a fully grown veil
> (longer fins than regular "standerd" Angels).
> She'll be...oh there's Mom!...whoaaaah and it's all head over fins
> until she rights herself.
>
ROFL! "Head over fins" creates a great mental image. Flower (the
discus) mostly avoids the currents in the tank. He just can't keep from
getting blown around in the Aquaclear outflow since his whole body is a
sail no matter how he turns.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[bassett]

I still think your Angel has bumped into something, But if it's still alive
and feeding. All good, and over time it will recover,
Your imbalance problem, could well be unrelated to this current problem, if
he has always been a bit lob sided.
bassett

"Tynk" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> bassett Jul 9, 8:18 am show options
>
> Newsgroups: rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc
> From: "bassett" > - Find messages by this
> author
> Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 22:18:18 +1000
> Local: Sat,Jul 9 2005 8:18 am
> Subject: Re: Angelfish lost balance
> Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show
> original | Report Abuse
>
> He doesn't, say , what the filters consist of "net max" My Angles hate
>
> strong current, by way of a power head, but normal canister filter
> inlet //
> output , like UGF's don't seem to bother them.
>
> I agree.
> I tried a power head once. It was horrible for them no matter where I
> aimed it.
> The Magnum350 canister filter doesn't bother them a bit.
> They swim through the current streams no prob. They simply learned
> quickly to turn their body to one side so the current hits them just so
> and they cut right through it.
> All my Angels do this.
>

[Nikki Casali]

The currents are directed low along the gravel, like how my Ancistrus
like them. It's a 24" high tank. Can a bump damage the brain? I know one
of my Bala Sharks constantly banged its head against the glass without
any detri"mental" effect. You could always hear the thud. Owch!

His condition does seem stable, neither getting better or worse. Eating
is not a problem. Maybe it's a very slow degenerative disease? I've just
purchased two adult angelfish which I've placed in quarantine. I do hope
he gets to meet them as he was looking despondent a few weeks ago.

I've just calculated that he must be 4 years old. I wonder how long
angelfish live?

Nikki

bassett wrote:

> I still think your Angel has bumped into something, But if it's still alive
> and feeding. All good, and over time it will recover,
> Your imbalance problem, could well be unrelated to this current problem, if
> he has always been a bit lob sided.
> bassett
>
> "Tynk" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>
>>bassett Jul 9, 8:18 am show options
>>
>>Newsgroups: rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc
>>From: "bassett" > - Find messages by this
>>author
>>Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 22:18:18 +1000
>>Local: Sat,Jul 9 2005 8:18 am
>>Subject: Re: Angelfish lost balance
>>Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show
>>original | Report Abuse
>>
>>He doesn't, say , what the filters consist of "net max" My Angles hate
>>
>>strong current, by way of a power head, but normal canister filter
>>inlet //
>>output , like UGF's don't seem to bother them.
>>
>>I agree.
>>I tried a power head once. It was horrible for them no matter where I
>>aimed it.
>>The Magnum350 canister filter doesn't bother them a bit.
>>They swim through the current streams no prob. They simply learned
>>quickly to turn their body to one side so the current hits them just so
>>and they cut right through it.
>>All my Angels do this.
>>
>
>
>

[Tynk]

Elaine T>>

ROFL! "Head over fins" creates a great mental image.

LOL>..yeah...it looks just like what's in your head! = )~

[Tynk]

I've just calculated that he must be 4 years old. I wonder how long
angelfish live?


Nikki

Generally, and in good health, good water maintenance, 8 yrs on
average.