Ammonium and carbon filters with regards to the nitrogen cycle

[Michael]

Hi All,

I request your feedback and comments on the following nitrogen cycle
questions. I will be starting my first tank soon and want to do this
correctly.

1) As I understand my chemistry, activated charcoal will absorb
ammonia. Since Ammonia triggers the tank's initial cycling how will
I get sufficient quantities while using the tank filters (Which
contain the charcoal)? Should I not use filtration during the first
stage and only start filtration once the nitrite stage has been
reached?
2) If I understood the various information I have been studying
alkaline water will cause ammonium instead of ammonia. Will the tank
be able to start the nitrogen cycle with ammonium?
3) What effect will hard water have on the Nitrogen cycle? I
have heard that I can add Potassium Chloride to soften the water.
The type of fish I want to eventually have will not tolerate regular
salt. I would like to have softer water before adding the initial
fish but I don't want to interfere with the initial cycle.

In case these variables matter here is the data for my proposed tank:
Freshwater 55 Gal. Glass Tank
2 Power Filters (One of the cheap ones included with the starter kit
and an additional higher quality filter)
1 12 inch air (Bubble ?) bar
Dark gravel
Artificial plants
Artificial driftwood
Initial fish: 6 Danio Rerio Zebra fish (To Cycle the tank)
Eventual additional population: 10 White Clouds, 20 Neon Tetras, 5
Ghost Shrimp, 1 Male Beta and 2 alga eaters (I am still studying the
alga eaters at this time)


Thanks for your feedback and assistance.

Michael

[Elaine T]

Michael wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I request your feedback and comments on the following nitrogen cycle
> questions. I will be starting my first tank soon and want to do this
> correctly.
>
> 1) As I understand my chemistry, activated charcoal will absorb
> ammonia. Since Ammonia triggers the tank's initial cycling how will
> I get sufficient quantities while using the tank filters (Which
> contain the charcoal)? Should I not use filtration during the first
> stage and only start filtration once the nitrite stage has been
> reached?

Nope. Zeolite, or "white carbon" absorbs ammonia. Ammonia is too polar
to adsorb effectively onto activated carbon.

> 2) If I understood the various information I have been studying
> alkaline water will cause ammonium instead of ammonia. Will the tank
> be able to start the nitrogen cycle with ammonium?

You've been reading some odd chemistry. There is always an equilibrium
between ammonia and ammonium.
NH4+ <--> NH3 + H+
However, your sources have the equilibrium backwards. There is more
ammonia at alkaline pH and more ammonium ion at acidic pH. However,
bacteria, plants, and other organisms that need ammonia to live simply
pick off the NH3 as it forms. As they use NH3, more forms no matter
what the pH.

So, your tank will cycle as long as it's above pH 6.0 or so. 6.5 is
preferable because it's more stable. Below pH 6.0, the bacteria have
trouble growing at all.

> 3) What effect will hard water have on the Nitrogen cycle? I
> have heard that I can add Potassium Chloride to soften the water.
> The type of fish I want to eventually have will not tolerate regular
> salt. I would like to have softer water before adding the initial
> fish but I don't want to interfere with the initial cycle.

Wrong again. KCl adds salt, but it does not change the water hardness.
Perhaps you have confused it with household water softening units
where sodium is exchanged for calcium and magnesium using resins.
Again, nitrifying bacteria live fine in both hard and soft water.

Set up the tank, and cycle it exactly how you intend to run it. With
carbon, without salt, with softer water from a DI or RO unit, and so
forth. You will establish a colony of bacteria that is suited to the
water conditions you want to use.

> In case these variables matter here is the data for my proposed tank:
> Freshwater 55 Gal. Glass Tank
> 2 Power Filters (One of the cheap ones included with the starter kit
> and an additional higher quality filter)
> 1 12 inch air (Bubble ?) bar
> Dark gravel

I'm a fan of natural looking, dark gravel.

> Artificial plants

If you can grow some live low-light plants like Anacharis, watersprite,
java fern, Anubias, or java moss, they will improve the water quality
markedly.

> Artificial driftwood

Get some real driftwood because I'm recommending a small pleco, which
requires wood. Bogwood or Mopani is best because it sinks and doesn't
rot. Soak it for a few weeks before adding to the tank because it will
leach tannins and stain the water at first. The tannins themselves
soften the water and can lower pH a bit.

> Initial fish: 6 Danio Rerio Zebra fish (To Cycle the tank)
> Eventual additional population: 10 White Clouds, 20 Neon Tetras, 5
> Ghost Shrimp, 1 Male Beta and 2 alga eaters (I am still studying the
> alga eaters at this time)
>

Let's see. 6 zebra danios is a bit light for cycling a 55 gallon tank to
me. You'll be waiting forever for the ammonia to appear. I'd cycle a
55 gal with about 10 small fish like zebras. Also, I don't see a need
to cycle with throw-away fish. A properly managed cycle shouldn't kill
most normal community fish. It will kill sensitive ones like rams,
cardinals, angels, and so forth, so cycle fishless for those.

Bettas are also not always a good choice for community tanks. A betta
could get nipped by the neons, have trouble swimming in the current from
2 filters, threaten other fish, or eat your ghost shrimp. You might go
with a dwarf gourami instead.

You're also missing catfish to get the food that will fall past the
neons and zebras. You could pick most loaches or corydoras catfish for
your large tank. I'd drop the white clouds and add catfish. White
clouds are really more active and better colored at subtropical
temperatures.

My version of your (in order of fish addition) tank would look more like...

10 long-finned zebra danios to cycle (Or whatever other small tropical
you want)
5 Corydoras catfish or 2-3 loaches
1 dwarf gourami
20 neon tetras (don't add all at once unless they're small)
1 Ancistrus spp. added when green algae actually appears
Other good algae eaters are true siamese algae eaters (SAE) and
otocinclus, but I think one Ancistrus will do it.

This leaves a bit of room for other fish that you might see and decide
you really want.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[NetMax]

"Michael" > wrote in message
news:alaBe.170923$nG6.141006@attbi_s22...
> Hi All,
>
> I request your feedback and comments on the following nitrogen cycle
> questions. I will be starting my first tank soon and want to do this
> correctly.

I'll skip the questions Elaine has already answered...

> 1) As I understand my chemistry, activated charcoal will absorb
> ammonia. Since Ammonia triggers the tank's initial cycling how will
> I get sufficient quantities while using the tank filters (Which
> contain the charcoal)? Should I not use filtration during the first
> stage and only start filtration once the nitrite stage has been
> reached?

Definitely use the filters are the bacteria will colonize areas with good
water movement (filter medias).

> 2) If I understood the various information I have been studying
> alkaline water will cause ammonium instead of ammonia. Will the tank
> be able to start the nitrogen cycle with ammonium?

I'm not certain if bacteria consume both NH3 and NH4 (I think so), but if
the water is so acidic that the bacteria cannot survive, then the ammonium
ions shouldn't bother the fish either (though there must be limits as to how
far this can be taken).

> 3) What effect will hard water have on the Nitrogen cycle? I
> have heard that I can add Potassium Chloride to soften the water.
> The type of fish I want to eventually have will not tolerate regular
> salt. I would like to have softer water before adding the initial
> fish but I don't want to interfere with the initial cycle.

Generally speaking the bacteria which cultures is the species (or
sub-species) which matches your water conditions, so ideally, you want to
have stable water parameters before during and after cycling. Also *very*
generally speaking, the more alkaline the water, the greater the dependance
on bacteria, to complete the nitrogen cycle.

> In case these variables matter here is the data for my proposed tank:
> Freshwater 55 Gal. Glass Tank
> 2 Power Filters (One of the cheap ones included with the starter kit
> and an additional higher quality filter)
> 1 12 inch air (Bubble ?) bar
> Dark gravel
> Artificial plants
> Artificial driftwood
> Initial fish: 6 Danio Rerio Zebra fish (To Cycle the tank)
> Eventual additional population: 10 White Clouds, 20 Neon Tetras, 5
> Ghost Shrimp, 1 Male Beta and 2 alga eaters (I am still studying the
> alga eaters at this time)

Well, there might be a few observations to be made there. Six zebras might
take a while to cycle a 55g. A Betta might be a little too attracted to
shiny Neon tetras. Some Bettas are not good tank-mates for invertebrates
(snails, shrimps, worms etc), ymmv. All your fish are very plant friendly,
so I'd consider adding a few real plants. The worst that can happen is that
they eventually die and you throw them out. Prosperous plant life helps
reduce algae growth too (they compete for the same nutrients). hth
--
www.NetMax.tk

> Thanks for your feedback and assistance.
>
> Michael
>
>

[Frank]

SAve yourself a *lot* of time and work - do a fishless cycle. There are
a lot of sites telling how a fishless cycle is done - some that have
only did a fishless cycle one or two times! What you don't want is a
"never ending fishless cycle". Put pure ammonia, 6 drops per gal.
(5ppm) _one time_ - adding, or "feeding" more ammonia as the tank is
cycling is not needed, and can cause a "never ending cycle".... Go with
a few live plants - low light plants will do fine. Live plants will not
only speed up the cycle, but help with the water quality as the tank
ages. Activated carbon isn't needed in the filter full time - it's used
to remove dyes, odors and medications. The small amount within the
pre-packed filter cartridges only last a week or so anyway before it
reaches it's exhausted sorption rate. ie; Two US cups (480cc) per 55
gals. (280L) only last about 6 weeks - and that's if it's a *good* high
quality activated carbon! ... As already pointed out, ammonia doesn't
convert to ammonium untill the pH drops below 6.5 - the bacteria
colonies growth will start to slow down at a pH of 6.0. If your tap
water is to soft with a low pH, add a stick of blackboard chulk to your
filters media. If your waters really hard, using a 5 gal. plastic
bucket, add a drop or two of Hydrochloric acid (muriatic acid) per gal.
of water. Let it sit for 24 hours to stabilize, the pH will be 5.4 -
mixed with your tap water will lower the tanks pH. Depending on how
hard the tap water is, more or less than 5 gals. of the bucket of
crashed pH water may be needed. ..... As for filtering, get something
with a couple of bio-wheels. Of the three forms of pollution we deal
with in aquariums, wet/dry filters are the only ones that remove DOCs
(dissolved organic compounds)......... Frank