Koi Clay

[Priscilla McCullough]

Does anyone know what exactly Koi Clay is?
Priss

[Roy]

Is calcium bentonite clay finely ground and sold at excessively high
prices...........to ponders as a miricle cure all for ponds and fish.
I am not argueing it may have benefits, but the price certainly is not
even close in line with what you can buy a 50 or 100 pound bag of
calcium bentonite clay for, from a foundry supply, or feed mill
for......The jopker on Ebay is probably doing just that, and only
needs to sell one bag of the stuff and his 100 pound sack is paid for
in full.....Even with shipping, the cost of a 50# bag is still cheaper
10 times over than buying packaged koi clay and paying the price
gouging prices.

On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 13:13:33 -0400, "Priscilla McCullough"
> wrote:

>===<>Does anyone know what exactly Koi Clay is?
>===<>Priss
>===<>


==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!
"The original frugal ponder"
~~~~ }<((((o> ~~~~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~~~~~ }<(((((o>

[George]

"Roy" > wrote in message
...
> Is calcium bentonite clay finely ground and sold at excessively high
> prices...........to ponders as a miricle cure all for ponds and fish.
> I am not argueing it may have benefits, but the price certainly is not
> even close in line with what you can buy a 50 or 100 pound bag of
> calcium bentonite clay for, from a foundry supply, or feed mill
> for......The jopker on Ebay is probably doing just that, and only
> needs to sell one bag of the stuff and his 100 pound sack is paid for
> in full.....Even with shipping, the cost of a 50# bag is still cheaper
> 10 times over than buying packaged koi clay and paying the price
> gouging prices.

You can get a 100lbs bag of bentonite at an industrial pump or drilling
supply company for about $6-10/bag. Do a search on whitepages.com for one
or both of these businesses in your area, then call them and check on
availability. They also make it in pellets, which is much easier to use,
but a bit more expensive. The other advantage of pellets is that they come
in 5-gallon buckets that are resealable.

[Priscilla McCullough]

I was curious. I have had my pond up since March. 15x15 and 4 ft deep. 3½ x9
4 ft settlement chamber/filter filled with media. 3 bottom drains.
About 8 medium Koi in it. Coast of Ga. MY water won't clear. It stays green
looking. I don't know if its because its so hot here and I have a lot of
trees.
Fish seem happy. Friend got this koi clay and said hers cleared up. Was
wondering if it would do any good or just leave my pond alone and hope it
clears.
Just have water lettuce and a couple hyantchs. <ms>
Got a couple water lilies but since I can't see the bottom am afraid to get
in. I did catch 2 big snapping turtles and relocated them.
Got a frog sanctuary out there. Toads and Frog haven.
Priss


" George" > wrote in message
news:0ReBe.151088$_o.60911@attbi_s71...
>
> "Roy" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Is calcium bentonite clay finely ground and sold at excessively high
>> prices...........to ponders as a miricle cure all for ponds and fish.
>> I am not argueing it may have benefits, but the price certainly is not
>> even close in line with what you can buy a 50 or 100 pound bag of
>> calcium bentonite clay for, from a foundry supply, or feed mill
>> for......The jopker on Ebay is probably doing just that, and only
>> needs to sell one bag of the stuff and his 100 pound sack is paid for
>> in full.....Even with shipping, the cost of a 50# bag is still cheaper
>> 10 times over than buying packaged koi clay and paying the price
>> gouging prices.
>
> You can get a 100lbs bag of bentonite at an industrial pump or drilling
> supply company for about $6-10/bag. Do a search on whitepages.com for one
> or both of these businesses in your area, then call them and check on
> availability. They also make it in pellets, which is much easier to use,
> but a bit more expensive. The other advantage of pellets is that they
> come in 5-gallon buckets that are resealable.
>

[~ janj JJsPond.us]

>I was curious. I have had my pond up since March. 15x15 and 4 ft deep. 3½ x9
>4 ft settlement chamber/filter filled with media. 3 bottom drains.
>About 8 medium Koi in it. Coast of Ga. MY water won't clear. It stays green
>looking. I don't know if its because its so hot here and I have a lot of
>trees.
>Fish seem happy. Friend got this koi clay and said hers cleared up. Was
>wondering if it would do any good or just leave my pond alone and hope it
>clears.
>Just have water lettuce and a couple hyantchs. <ms>

There's the problem, more plants needed most likely. What are your water
parameters? Numbers preferred from all tests you have on hand. ~ jan

>Got a couple water lilies but since I can't see the bottom am afraid to get
>in. I did catch 2 big snapping turtles and relocated them.
>Got a frog sanctuary out there. Toads and Frog haven.
>Priss

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

[Roy]

I believe your in need of more plants to suck up nutrients instead of
the algae getting the nutrients to grow on. Its hard to say with
ca;coium bentonite, some swear by it others say its so so, andyet
others swear at it.........but whatever you do, as I am sure one clown
here will chime in and suggest, and that is DO NOT USE kitty litter in
place of koi clay or calcium bentonite.......

On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 17:54:16 -0400, "Priscilla McCullough"
> wrote:

>===<>I was curious. I have had my pond up since March. 15x15 and 4 ft deep. 3½ x9
>===<>4 ft settlement chamber/filter filled with media. 3 bottom drains.
>===<>About 8 medium Koi in it. Coast of Ga. MY water won't clear. It stays green
>===<>looking. I don't know if its because its so hot here and I have a lot of
>===<>trees.
>===<>Fish seem happy. Friend got this koi clay and said hers cleared up. Was
>===<>wondering if it would do any good or just leave my pond alone and hope it
>===<>clears.
>===<>Just have water lettuce and a couple hyantchs. <ms>
>===<>Got a couple water lilies but since I can't see the bottom am afraid to get
>===<>in. I did catch 2 big snapping turtles and relocated them.
>===<>Got a frog sanctuary out there. Toads and Frog haven.
>===<>Priss
>===<>
>===<>
>===<>" George" > wrote in message
>===<>news:0ReBe.151088$_o.60911@attbi_s71...
>===<>>
>===<>> "Roy" > wrote in message
>===<>> ...
>===<>>> Is calcium bentonite clay finely ground and sold at excessively high
>===<>>> prices...........to ponders as a miricle cure all for ponds and fish.
>===<>>> I am not argueing it may have benefits, but the price certainly is not
>===<>>> even close in line with what you can buy a 50 or 100 pound bag of
>===<>>> calcium bentonite clay for, from a foundry supply, or feed mill
>===<>>> for......The jopker on Ebay is probably doing just that, and only
>===<>>> needs to sell one bag of the stuff and his 100 pound sack is paid for
>===<>>> in full.....Even with shipping, the cost of a 50# bag is still cheaper
>===<>>> 10 times over than buying packaged koi clay and paying the price
>===<>>> gouging prices.
>===<>>
>===<>> You can get a 100lbs bag of bentonite at an industrial pump or drilling
>===<>> supply company for about $6-10/bag. Do a search on whitepages.com for one
>===<>> or both of these businesses in your area, then call them and check on
>===<>> availability. They also make it in pellets, which is much easier to use,
>===<>> but a bit more expensive. The other advantage of pellets is that they
>===<>> come in 5-gallon buckets that are resealable.
>===<>>
>===<>


==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!
"The original frugal ponder"
~~~~ }<((((o> ~~~~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~~~~~ }<(((((o>

[Roy]

Just make sure if buying from a well drilling outfit that it is
calcium or southern bentonite, and not sodium or western bentonite.
Well drillers normally use western (sodium ) bentonite and yes that
too is available in 5 gal pails in granulated, and pelleted
forms.........CALCIUM or SOUTHERN is what you want not WESTERN or
SODIUM.......

On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 20:29:48 GMT, " George"
> wrote:

>===<>
>===<>"Roy" > wrote in message
...
>===<>> Is calcium bentonite clay finely ground and sold at excessively high
>===<>> prices...........to ponders as a miricle cure all for ponds and fish.
>===<>> I am not argueing it may have benefits, but the price certainly is not
>===<>> even close in line with what you can buy a 50 or 100 pound bag of
>===<>> calcium bentonite clay for, from a foundry supply, or feed mill
>===<>> for......The jopker on Ebay is probably doing just that, and only
>===<>> needs to sell one bag of the stuff and his 100 pound sack is paid for
>===<>> in full.....Even with shipping, the cost of a 50# bag is still cheaper
>===<>> 10 times over than buying packaged koi clay and paying the price
>===<>> gouging prices.
>===<>
>===<>You can get a 100lbs bag of bentonite at an industrial pump or drilling
>===<>supply company for about $6-10/bag. Do a search on whitepages.com for one
>===<>or both of these businesses in your area, then call them and check on
>===<>availability. They also make it in pellets, which is much easier to use,
>===<>but a bit more expensive. The other advantage of pellets is that they come
>===<>in 5-gallon buckets that are resealable.
>===<>


==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!
"The original frugal ponder"
~~~~ }<((((o> ~~~~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~~~~~ }<(((((o>

[George]

"Priscilla McCullough" > wrote in message
...
>I was curious. I have had my pond up since March. 15x15 and 4 ft deep. 3½
>x9 4 ft settlement chamber/filter filled with media. 3 bottom drains.
> About 8 medium Koi in it. Coast of Ga. MY water won't clear. It stays
> green looking. I don't know if its because its so hot here and I have a
> lot of trees.
> Fish seem happy. Friend got this koi clay and said hers cleared up. Was
> wondering if it would do any good or just leave my pond alone and hope it
> clears.
> Just have water lettuce and a couple hyantchs. <ms>
> Got a couple water lilies but since I can't see the bottom am afraid to
> get in. I did catch 2 big snapping turtles and relocated them.
> Got a frog sanctuary out there. Toads and Frog haven.
> Priss
>

Try using some aquazyme on a regular basis and see if that helps. How much
water flow do you have? Also, you should regularly clean out your
settlement filter if it is building up a lot of detritis. And if you have
room, add some more aquatic plants, like lillies and miniature cattails.

> " George" > wrote in message
> news:0ReBe.151088$_o.60911@attbi_s71...
>>
>> "Roy" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Is calcium bentonite clay finely ground and sold at excessively high
>>> prices...........to ponders as a miricle cure all for ponds and fish.
>>> I am not argueing it may have benefits, but the price certainly is not
>>> even close in line with what you can buy a 50 or 100 pound bag of
>>> calcium bentonite clay for, from a foundry supply, or feed mill
>>> for......The jopker on Ebay is probably doing just that, and only
>>> needs to sell one bag of the stuff and his 100 pound sack is paid for
>>> in full.....Even with shipping, the cost of a 50# bag is still cheaper
>>> 10 times over than buying packaged koi clay and paying the price
>>> gouging prices.
>>
>> You can get a 100lbs bag of bentonite at an industrial pump or drilling
>> supply company for about $6-10/bag. Do a search on whitepages.com for
>> one or both of these businesses in your area, then call them and check
>> on availability. They also make it in pellets, which is much easier to
>> use, but a bit more expensive. The other advantage of pellets is that
>> they come in 5-gallon buckets that are resealable.
>>
>
>

[George]

"Roy" > wrote in message
...
> Just make sure if buying from a well drilling outfit that it is
> calcium or southern bentonite, and not sodium or western bentonite.
> Well drillers normally use western (sodium ) bentonite and yes that
> too is available in 5 gal pails in granulated, and pelleted
> forms.........CALCIUM or SOUTHERN is what you want not WESTERN or
> SODIUM.......

Why is that?

[Roy]

The propertys of the two clays are entirely different.......One will
do the job (supposedly) and the other is used by those that don't know
any different simply because its bentonite and they considfer
bentonite all one and the same, which it is not. i'm not gonna get
into a blow by blow difference in clays, as there is a heap of info on
the various bentonite clays, with a google search....

On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 02:20:55 GMT, " George"
> wrote:

>===<>
>===<>"Roy" > wrote in message
...
>===<>> Just make sure if buying from a well drilling outfit that it is
>===<>> calcium or southern bentonite, and not sodium or western bentonite.
>===<>> Well drillers normally use western (sodium ) bentonite and yes that
>===<>> too is available in 5 gal pails in granulated, and pelleted
>===<>> forms.........CALCIUM or SOUTHERN is what you want not WESTERN or
>===<>> SODIUM.......
>===<>
>===<>Why is that?
>===<>


==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!
"The original frugal ponder"
~~~~ }<((((o> ~~~~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~~~~~ }<(((((o>

[George]

"Roy" > wrote in message
...
>
> The propertys of the two clays are entirely different.......One will
> do the job (supposedly) and the other is used by those that don't know
> any different simply because its bentonite and they considfer
> bentonite all one and the same, which it is not. i'm not gonna get
> into a blow by blow difference in clays, as there is a heap of info on
> the various bentonite clays, with a google search....

Roy. I'm a geologist, and have used both types of bentonites extensively in
my work. The question still stands. Why do you say that one is preferred
over the other for use in garden ponds? The are both highly adsorptive,
and highly hydrophilic, so what difference does it make? Although they're
chemistry is slightly different, their physical properties are nearly
identical.

[Roy]

The western type (sodium ) swells more, than the calcium type does.
The western type leaves a slimey residue inside pipes and filter
boxes, which usually winds up attrating more junk that adheres in the
pipes etc.

The western type being more absorptive leads to clumping in some some
systems as it is moved through the filter boxes and such, where ther
calcium type does not have this problem.

You hear folks say the fish can utilize the properties of calcium
better than that of sodium, which I can not say if they do nor not,
but there is all kinds of claims to this being the case........All
koi clays I have seen or read about are all calcium based.....While I
do not use koi clay to treat my pond, my pond has a heap of bentonite
of both types in it, both from ignorance in use and for sealing
seeps.....The western bentonite is good at sealing up seeps and leaks
where the calcium is not.......They mine southern bentonite a few
miles from where I live, and I can get tons of it for free as long as
I care to shovel it up out of the warehouse where its bagged and
processed.......

I use both types in my foundry with calcium being the most used, but
thats neither here or there in regards to ponds.

I have heard some real horror stories of folks that used western type
with clogged filters, pump inpellers getting coated up and pump
efficiency reduced, and it seems to be more pronounced if they used
pelleted or granular form as compared to milled mesh sizes of 400 or
finer.......I can only assume the western would clump up too quick
once it hits the water, whereas the calcium would not....all due to
the differences in the two types. I know when I broadcast sodium over
a seep, it will float, and when its particles touch each other, they
knit together, eventually making a floating mat, until they absorb
sufficient water and eventually sink. The calcium floats as well, but
does not form into larger ever growing globs of clay. The granular
and pelleted type sinks rather rapidly, but just swells up and
continues to gather more and more bentonite and other debri in the
process, whereas the calcium seems to dissapate throughout the water
column.

So like I stated, I have no actual experieince with it used for making
water clearer etc, as I never used it for such......but my natural
pond which contains both has very good looking water....BARAClear P-80
uses calcium bentonite as a binder and buffer, to aide in clearing
water of algae and reduce turbidity. Baraclear is made by one of
Bentonite Corp numerous smaller concerns, and since Bentonite Corp,
is the worlds largest producer of bentonite products, and handle both
calcium and sodium based clays, there has to be a reason they are
using the calcium clay for reducing turbidity and algae in the
water....I have and continue to use Baraclear, mainly for ther
aluminum sulphate properties in locking up phosphorous content of my
ponds water, so if the calcium has benefitted my koi or not I can't
say......

I can find lots of sodium bentonite here and there in clumps in my
pond if I look close, but it seems the calcium just mixes in and sort
of dissapears. I also found that when I apply sodium when I had a
leak, even my pumps prestrainer and also leaf basket / primer pot got
a pretty heavy buildup of film. It does not get this whenever I added
calcium. I do not filter my pond as its too large and only use
strainers to keep junk out of the pump that I use for aeraton and
powering water features. I have to belive like others have experienced
that using it in a pond with filter media would lead to media that
gets loaded up with kitty litter or western bentonite film and clumps.
Thats one reason well drillers use sodium as it mnakes a heavier
denser clumping slurry than calcium does.....as its geared at sealing
more than disperseing and migrataing freely than calcium is capable
of.


So thats my experiences with bentonites of both types.......
I have to belive that addition of bentonite in a pond with a filter
system is akin to using a floculant in a hot tub, so it can collect
smaller particles into larger masses for filter removal. But you sure
do not want huge globs of accumulated junk migrating through the
system either, which is what you have a good chance of having with
sodium bent.


On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 12:41:43 GMT, " George"
> wrote:

>===<>
>===<>"Roy" > wrote in message
...
>===<>>
>===<>> The propertys of the two clays are entirely different.......One will
>===<>> do the job (supposedly) and the other is used by those that don't know
>===<>> any different simply because its bentonite and they considfer
>===<>> bentonite all one and the same, which it is not. i'm not gonna get
>===<>> into a blow by blow difference in clays, as there is a heap of info on
>===<>> the various bentonite clays, with a google search....
>===<>
>===<>Roy. I'm a geologist, and have used both types of bentonites extensively in
>===<>my work. The question still stands. Why do you say that one is preferred
>===<>over the other for use in garden ponds? The are both highly adsorptive,
>===<>and highly hydrophilic, so what difference does it make? Although they're
>===<>chemistry is slightly different, their physical properties are nearly
>===<>identical.
>===<>


==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!
"The original frugal ponder"
~~~~ }<((((o> ~~~~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~~~~~ }<(((((o>

[Wilmdale]

George wrote:

>"Roy" > wrote in message
...
>
>
>>The propertys of the two clays are entirely different.......One will
>>do the job (supposedly) and the other is used by those that don't know
>>any different simply because its bentonite and they considfer
>>bentonite all one and the same, which it is not. i'm not gonna get
>>into a blow by blow difference in clays, as there is a heap of info on
>>the various bentonite clays, with a google search....
>>
>>
>
>Roy. I'm a geologist, and have used both types of bentonites extensively in
>my work. The question still stands. Why do you say that one is preferred
>over the other for use in garden ponds? The are both highly adsorptive,
>and highly hydrophilic, so what difference does it make? Although they're
>chemistry is slightly different, their physical properties are nearly
>identical.
>
>
>
>
Geeeesh! I just called a supplier here and the guy that answered the
phone says "what's southern bentonite or calcium bentonite?" "I just
have straight bentonite". Then he says, "who calls it that"?
Interesting...
W. Dale

[Roy]

On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 14:06:16 -0600, Wilmdale
> wrote:

snip
>===<>>
>===<>>
>===<>Geeeesh! I just called a supplier here and the guy that answered the
>===<>phone says "what's southern bentonite or calcium bentonite?" "I just
>===<>have straight bentonite". Then he says, "who calls it that"?
>===<>Interesting...
>===<>W. Dale


Somehow that just does not surprise me one bit. I deal with foundry on
a pretty large scale but only as a hobby or small side line business,
and patronize quite a few forums related to foundry stuff. One or
two forums will always find those wanting to use kitty litter because
its cheaper and they only want 5 pounds not 50 or 100.......but they
do not know what kind of kitty litter it is to begin with........They
all assume its one and the same, be it deorderized or plain jane
"western", and insist on usiing it for refractory mix, as well as
greensand molds.........Most of these folks only ever play with
aluminum or lead, and most will still run out and buy kitty litter and
then come back latter complaiining that their refratory or greensand
does not work right and what can they do, but still will not buy the
proper type bentonite to use...........but usually some eventually see
the light and go and buy a bag for about double what a small bag of
generic kitty litter costs and wind up with about 100 times more in
the amount........and then say wow, what a difference......The older
well versed indivuduals that used to run parts and customer counters
are getting few and far between anymore......and most clerks or
counter tpye associates in business do not have a clue what does what
or what the item is they are actually looking up that your wanting to
buy........

==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!
"The original frugal ponder"
~~~~ }<((((o> ~~~~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~~~~~ }<(((((o>

[Priscilla McCullough]

Thanks everyone for the info!!
Priss
"Roy" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 14:06:16 -0600, Wilmdale
> > wrote:
>
> snip
>>===<>>
>>===<>>
>>===<>Geeeesh! I just called a supplier here and the guy that answered the
>>===<>phone says "what's southern bentonite or calcium bentonite?" "I just
>>===<>have straight bentonite". Then he says, "who calls it that"?
>>===<>Interesting...
>>===<>W. Dale
>
>
> Somehow that just does not surprise me one bit. I deal with foundry on
> a pretty large scale but only as a hobby or small side line business,
> and patronize quite a few forums related to foundry stuff. One or
> two forums will always find those wanting to use kitty litter because
> its cheaper and they only want 5 pounds not 50 or 100.......but they
> do not know what kind of kitty litter it is to begin with........They
> all assume its one and the same, be it deorderized or plain jane
> "western", and insist on usiing it for refractory mix, as well as
> greensand molds.........Most of these folks only ever play with
> aluminum or lead, and most will still run out and buy kitty litter and
> then come back latter complaiining that their refratory or greensand
> does not work right and what can they do, but still will not buy the
> proper type bentonite to use...........but usually some eventually see
> the light and go and buy a bag for about double what a small bag of
> generic kitty litter costs and wind up with about 100 times more in
> the amount........and then say wow, what a difference......The older
> well versed indivuduals that used to run parts and customer counters
> are getting few and far between anymore......and most clerks or
> counter tpye associates in business do not have a clue what does what
> or what the item is they are actually looking up that your wanting to
> buy........
>
> ==============================================
> Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!
> "The original frugal ponder"
> ~~~~ }<((((o> ~~~~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~~~~~ }<(((((o>

[Priscilla McCullough]

Jan I will give you readings as soon as we stop having afternoon storms. The
last 2 days we have had bad afternoon thunderstorms.
Priss
"~ janj JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
...
> >I was curious. I have had my pond up since March. 15x15 and 4 ft deep. 3½
> >x9
>>4 ft settlement chamber/filter filled with media. 3 bottom drains.
>>About 8 medium Koi in it. Coast of Ga. MY water won't clear. It stays
>>green
>>looking. I don't know if its because its so hot here and I have a lot of
>>trees.
>>Fish seem happy. Friend got this koi clay and said hers cleared up. Was
>>wondering if it would do any good or just leave my pond alone and hope it
>>clears.
>>Just have water lettuce and a couple hyantchs. <ms>
>
> There's the problem, more plants needed most likely. What are your water
> parameters? Numbers preferred from all tests you have on hand. ~ jan
>
>>Got a couple water lilies but since I can't see the bottom am afraid to
>>get
>>in. I did catch 2 big snapping turtles and relocated them.
>>Got a frog sanctuary out there. Toads and Frog haven.
>>Priss
>
> ~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

[~ janj JJsPond.us]

>Jan I will give you readings as soon as we stop having afternoon storms. The
>last 2 days we have had bad afternoon thunderstorms.
>Priss

"So what's wrong with morning?" she asked quizzically, right eyebrow
raised. :o) ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

[George]

"Wilmdale" > wrote in message
...
> George wrote:
>
>>"Roy" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>
>>>The propertys of the two clays are entirely different.......One will
>>>do the job (supposedly) and the other is used by those that don't know
>>>any different simply because its bentonite and they considfer
>>>bentonite all one and the same, which it is not. i'm not gonna get
>>>into a blow by blow difference in clays, as there is a heap of info on
>>>the various bentonite clays, with a google search....
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Roy. I'm a geologist, and have used both types of bentonites extensively
>>in
>>my work. The question still stands. Why do you say that one is
>>preferred
>>over the other for use in garden ponds? The are both highly adsorptive,
>>and highly hydrophilic, so what difference does it make? Although they're
>>chemistry is slightly different, their physical properties are nearly
>>identical.
>>
>>
>>
>>
> Geeeesh! I just called a supplier here and the guy that answered the
> phone says "what's southern bentonite or calcium bentonite?" "I just
> have straight bentonite". Then he says, "who calls it that"?
> Interesting...
> W. Dale

If he looked on the package, it will say what kind it is.

[Charles]

On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 12:41:43 GMT, " George"
> wrote:

>
>"Roy" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> The propertys of the two clays are entirely different.......One will
>> do the job (supposedly) and the other is used by those that don't know
>> any different simply because its bentonite and they considfer
>> bentonite all one and the same, which it is not. i'm not gonna get
>> into a blow by blow difference in clays, as there is a heap of info on
>> the various bentonite clays, with a google search....
>
>Roy. I'm a geologist, and have used both types of bentonites extensively in
>my work. The question still stands. Why do you say that one is preferred
>over the other for use in garden ponds? The are both highly adsorptive,
>and highly hydrophilic, so what difference does it make? Although they're
>chemistry is slightly different, their physical properties are nearly
>identical.
>


I believe it's supposed to be the extra calcium that gets into the
fish's diet, leads to better color, health, that sort of thing. The
sodium bentonite doesn't effect the calcium level.

I got some of the expensive kind, can't see that it did much for the
fish, but I have very little string algae this year and am growing
great water hyacinths.

We have so much calcium in our water already it seems odd that more
would do anything, but the ads were tempting.


--
Charles

Does not play well with others.

[Roy]

On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 05:33:16 GMT, Charles >
wrote:

snip
>===<>
>===<>I believe it's supposed to be the extra calcium that gets into the
>===<>fish's diet, leads to better color, health, that sort of thing. The
>===<>sodium bentonite doesn't effect the calcium level.

Thats possible...but I have a hard time believing that the koi can
take in and utilize the usual small amoaunt of calcium that would be
in a typical pond dose to do them any good.... However, folks use it
in various ways......mix it in with paste food, coat pelleted feeds
with it, broadcast it on the water etc....
>===<>
>===<>I got some of the expensive kind, can't see that it did much for the
>===<>fish, but I have very little string algae this year and am growing
>===<>great water hyacinths.

"Expensive kind" hmmmmmmmits all expensive from what I seen.....and I
can believe it does lock up a certain percentage of nutrients (mostly
phosphates) which would hinder most simple celled plants like algae
growth....
>===<>
>===<>We have so much calcium in our water already it seems odd that more
>===<>would do anything, but the ads were tempting.

I also have to think this marketing ploy in regards to doing so many
marvelous things for a pond and fish is mostly hype, but it does have
some fringe benefits.......The so called needed minerals etc should
already be available if your feeding a quality balanced feed, and
water quality, well a proper filtraton systemn in a balance pond with
sufficient plants and not over loaded should also give the same
results of water quality without the addition of clay......

It seems that since most if not all champion koi come from Japans so
called Mud ponds, and the composition of these ponds are made up of
montmorillite (sp?) clay, (bentonite falls into this catagory) ponders
hope to establish the same chemical makeup of their pristine liner or
concrete ponds by usuing this clay......by making weekly
dosages.....Does it "really" work or is it all in ones own minds eye?
I know of folks that go to the pond pulls at harvest time in Japan and
also smuggle back the ponds mud in the hopes of seeding their home
ponds with the mud..........The only real benefit I can possibly see
is the collodial property of bentonite and its ability to act like a
floculent should theroetically bind up DOC and help with
turbidity....


==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!
"The original frugal ponder"
~~~~ }<((((o> ~~~~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~~~~~ }<(((((o>

[Priscilla McCullough]

I figured it wouldn't read right if it just rained. no?
Priss
"~ janj JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
...
> >Jan I will give you readings as soon as we stop having afternoon storms.
> >The
>>last 2 days we have had bad afternoon thunderstorms.
>>Priss
>
> "So what's wrong with morning?" she asked quizzically, right eyebrow
> raised. :o) ~ jan
>
> ~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

[George]

"Charles" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 12:41:43 GMT, " George"
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>"Roy" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>> The propertys of the two clays are entirely different.......One will
>>> do the job (supposedly) and the other is used by those that don't know
>>> any different simply because its bentonite and they considfer
>>> bentonite all one and the same, which it is not. i'm not gonna get
>>> into a blow by blow difference in clays, as there is a heap of info on
>>> the various bentonite clays, with a google search....
>>
>>Roy. I'm a geologist, and have used both types of bentonites extensively
>>in
>>my work. The question still stands. Why do you say that one is
>>preferred
>>over the other for use in garden ponds? The are both highly adsorptive,
>>and highly hydrophilic, so what difference does it make? Although they're
>>chemistry is slightly different, their physical properties are nearly
>>identical.
>>
>
>
> I believe it's supposed to be the extra calcium that gets into the
> fish's diet, leads to better color, health, that sort of thing. The
> sodium bentonite doesn't effect the calcium level.
>
> I got some of the expensive kind, can't see that it did much for the
> fish, but I have very little string algae this year and am growing
> great water hyacinths.
>
> We have so much calcium in our water already it seems odd that more
> would do anything, but the ads were tempting.
>
>
> --
> Charles
>
> Does not play well with others.

If calcium is the only reason to use one over the other, you can always use
limestone in your waterworks (like waterfalls and such), and still use the
sodium bentonite, if it is more readily available, which I believe is the
case.

[George]

"Roy" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 05:33:16 GMT, Charles >
> wrote:
>
> snip
>>===<>
>>===<>I believe it's supposed to be the extra calcium that gets into the
>>===<>fish's diet, leads to better color, health, that sort of thing. The
>>===<>sodium bentonite doesn't effect the calcium level.
>
> Thats possible...but I have a hard time believing that the koi can
> take in and utilize the usual small amoaunt of calcium that would be
> in a typical pond dose to do them any good.... However, folks use it
> in various ways......mix it in with paste food, coat pelleted feeds
> with it, broadcast it on the water etc....
>>===<>
>>===<>I got some of the expensive kind, can't see that it did much for the
>>===<>fish, but I have very little string algae this year and am growing
>>===<>great water hyacinths.
>
> "Expensive kind" hmmmmmmmits all expensive from what I seen.....and I
> can believe it does lock up a certain percentage of nutrients (mostly
> phosphates) which would hinder most simple celled plants like algae
> growth....
>>===<>
>>===<>We have so much calcium in our water already it seems odd that more
>>===<>would do anything, but the ads were tempting.
>
> I also have to think this marketing ploy in regards to doing so many
> marvelous things for a pond and fish is mostly hype, but it does have
> some fringe benefits.......The so called needed minerals etc should
> already be available if your feeding a quality balanced feed, and
> water quality, well a proper filtraton systemn in a balance pond with
> sufficient plants and not over loaded should also give the same
> results of water quality without the addition of clay......
>
> It seems that since most if not all champion koi come from Japans so
> called Mud ponds, and the composition of these ponds are made up of
> montmorillite (sp?) clay, (bentonite falls into this catagory) ponders
> hope to establish the same chemical makeup of their pristine liner or
> concrete ponds by usuing this clay......by making weekly
> dosages.....Does it "really" work or is it all in ones own minds eye?
> I know of folks that go to the pond pulls at harvest time in Japan and
> also smuggle back the ponds mud in the hopes of seeding their home
> ponds with the mud..........The only real benefit I can possibly see
> is the collodial property of bentonite and its ability to act like a
> floculent should theroetically bind up DOC and help with
> turbidity....
>

In that case, it wouldn't matter whether one uses sodium or calcium
bentonite.

[Charles]

On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 13:55:43 GMT, " George"
> wrote:

(snip)
>
>If calcium is the only reason to use one over the other, you can always use
>limestone in your waterworks (like waterfalls and such), and still use the
>sodium bentonite, if it is more readily available, which I believe is the
>case.
>

I don't think limestone would work in my water, it would probably
grow. Our city water is hard, it runs from 600 to over 1000 ppm tds.

I'm not promoting the koi clay, I just read a couple articles in
magazines and thought I'd give it a try. An uncontrolled experiment,
any results are meaningless, but it was something to do.

Snake oil maybe, but if your snake squeaks...

<:-)


--
Charles

Does not play well with others.

[~ janj JJsPond.us]

>I figured it wouldn't read right if it just rained. no?
>Priss

You're still going to get a reading that might be affecting the fish/pond.
Course now I've forgotten the original problem. :o( ~ jan

>> "So what's wrong with morning?" she asked quizzically, right eyebrow
>> raised. :o) ~ jan
>>
>>
>

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

[George]

"Charles" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 13:55:43 GMT, " George"
> > wrote:
>
> (snip)
>>
>>If calcium is the only reason to use one over the other, you can always
>>use
>>limestone in your waterworks (like waterfalls and such), and still use
>>the
>>sodium bentonite, if it is more readily available, which I believe is the
>>case.
>>
>
> I don't think limestone would work in my water, it would probably
> grow. Our city water is hard, it runs from 600 to over 1000 ppm tds.
>
> I'm not promoting the koi clay, I just read a couple articles in
> magazines and thought I'd give it a try. An uncontrolled experiment,
> any results are meaningless, but it was something to do.
>
> Snake oil maybe, but if your snake squeaks...
>
> <:-)
>
>
> --
> Charles
>
> Does not play well with others.

If your city drinking water has TDS of 600-1,000 ppm, it outside of EPA's
National Secondary Drinking Water Regulations, which set the recommended
maximum contaminant levels (mcl)for TDS in drinking water at 500 ppm.
These are non-enforceable guidelines at the Federal level. However, many
states have adopted them as part of their own drinking water standards.
You should check with your state to see what the allowable mcl for TDS is:

http://www.epa.gov/safewater/mcl.html#mcls

See the chart at the bottom of the page.

[Charles]

On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 21:36:04 GMT, " George"
> wrote:

>
>"Charles" > wrote in message
...
>> On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 13:55:43 GMT, " George"
>> > wrote:
>>
>> (snip)
>>>
>>>If calcium is the only reason to use one over the other, you can always
>>>use
>>>limestone in your waterworks (like waterfalls and such), and still use
>>>the
>>>sodium bentonite, if it is more readily available, which I believe is the
>>>case.
>>>
>>
>> I don't think limestone would work in my water, it would probably
>> grow. Our city water is hard, it runs from 600 to over 1000 ppm tds.
>>
>> I'm not promoting the koi clay, I just read a couple articles in
>> magazines and thought I'd give it a try. An uncontrolled experiment,
>> any results are meaningless, but it was something to do.
>>
>> Snake oil maybe, but if your snake squeaks...
>>
>> <:-)
>>
>>
>> --
>> Charles
>>
>> Does not play well with others.
>
>If your city drinking water has TDS of 600-1,000 ppm, it outside of EPA's
>National Secondary Drinking Water Regulations, which set the recommended
>maximum contaminant levels (mcl)for TDS in drinking water at 500 ppm.
>These are non-enforceable guidelines at the Federal level. However, many
>states have adopted them as part of their own drinking water standards.
>You should check with your state to see what the allowable mcl for TDS is:
>
>http://www.epa.gov/safewater/mcl.html#mcls
>
>See the chart at the bottom of the page.
>


The statement that the city sends out each year says they can go to
1000. They got their wrist slapped a couple years ago for not
reporting the 1040ppm that they sent out, got fined or something.

It's a good thing it's not enforceable, they'd have to turn off our
water.
--
Charles

Does not play well with others.

[George]

"Charles" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 21:36:04 GMT, " George"
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>"Charles" > wrote in message
...
>>> On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 13:55:43 GMT, " George"
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>> (snip)
>>>>
>>>>If calcium is the only reason to use one over the other, you can always
>>>>use
>>>>limestone in your waterworks (like waterfalls and such), and still use
>>>>the
>>>>sodium bentonite, if it is more readily available, which I believe is
>>>>the
>>>>case.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I don't think limestone would work in my water, it would probably
>>> grow. Our city water is hard, it runs from 600 to over 1000 ppm tds.
>>>
>>> I'm not promoting the koi clay, I just read a couple articles in
>>> magazines and thought I'd give it a try. An uncontrolled experiment,
>>> any results are meaningless, but it was something to do.
>>>
>>> Snake oil maybe, but if your snake squeaks...
>>>
>>> <:-)
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Charles
>>>
>>> Does not play well with others.
>>
>>If your city drinking water has TDS of 600-1,000 ppm, it outside of EPA's
>>National Secondary Drinking Water Regulations, which set the recommended
>>maximum contaminant levels (mcl)for TDS in drinking water at 500 ppm.
>>These are non-enforceable guidelines at the Federal level. However, many
>>states have adopted them as part of their own drinking water standards.
>>You should check with your state to see what the allowable mcl for TDS
>>is:
>>
>>http://www.epa.gov/safewater/mcl.html#mcls
>>
>>See the chart at the bottom of the page.
>>
>
>
> The statement that the city sends out each year says they can go to
> 1000. They got their wrist slapped a couple years ago for not
> reporting the 1040ppm that they sent out, got fined or something.
>
> It's a good thing it's not enforceable, they'd have to turn off our
> water.
> --
> Charles
>
> Does not play well with others.

Like I said, the Federal EPA's secondary drinking water standards are not
enforceable on the federal level. There are recommended levels. However,
many states use and enforce those standards. Perhaps yours doesn't.
Thankfully, mine does, because I have a marine aquarium and have a RO
filter that I use to make the water. I certainly wouldn't want to have to
change my sedimentation filter and carbon filter as often as it would take
with such high TDS. Our TDS concentration here is about 100 ppm. That has
a lot of benefits because it allows one to more easily control what is in
the pond water. It is much easier to add things than it is to try to remove
them.

[Derek Broughton]

Roy wrote:
>>
>> Somehow that just does not surprise me one bit. I deal with foundry on
>> a pretty large scale but only as a hobby or small side line business,
>> and patronize quite a few forums related to foundry stuff. One or
>> two forums will always find those wanting to use kitty litter because
>> its cheaper and they only want 5 pounds not 50 or 100.......but they
>> do not know what kind of kitty litter it is to begin with........They
>> all assume its one and the same, be it deorderized or plain jane
>> "western", and insist on usiing it for refractory mix, as well as
>> greensand molds.........Most of these folks only ever play with
>> aluminum or lead, and most will still run out and buy kitty litter and
>> then come back latter complaiining that their refratory or greensand
....

Roy, that's way different from using it in a pond. I'm sure the chemical
properties differ, but you were told the "physical properties are nearly
identical". In a pond, for planting purposes, or for sealing a natural
bottom, it makes little to no difference.
--
derek

[Roy]

Really.your spinning your wheels if your gong to stop seeps and leaks
with calcium bentonite clay due to the fact the swelling rate is about
20x less.........and it takes a heap of the stuff.......Sodium is
whats recomended for leaks and seeps, in a natural pond, not be me,
but by Bentonite corp......and its not a gimick as both sodium or
calcium carry the same price....so there has to be a
difference.........Who evcer would want to thorow sodium into a liner
type pond with filters and plumbing is gong to bite the bullet one day
when the stuff all swells up and gets accumulated nthe filter pads and
plumbing lines internallay get a thick gooey film that catches
everything in it and flow is reduced........Calcium bentonite is for
small doses for so called pond and koi benefits, sodium is for natural
ponds and sealing up leaks and seeps.......

I can just about guarantee it would take 20x more calcium bentonite to
seal a pond made out of sand as compared to one made out of sand
sealed with sodium bentonite......Using calcium bentonite to seal a
pond is just not a recomended way......PERIOD.


On Mon, 18 Jul 2005 14:06:43 -0300, Derek Broughton
> wrote:

>===<>
>===<>Roy wrote:
>===<>>>
>===<>>> Somehow that just does not surprise me one bit. I deal with foundry on
>===<>>> a pretty large scale but only as a hobby or small side line business,
>===<>>> and patronize quite a few forums related to foundry stuff. One or
>===<>>> two forums will always find those wanting to use kitty litter because
>===<>>> its cheaper and they only want 5 pounds not 50 or 100.......but they
>===<>>> do not know what kind of kitty litter it is to begin with........They
>===<>>> all assume its one and the same, be it deorderized or plain jane
>===<>>> "western", and insist on usiing it for refractory mix, as well as
>===<>>> greensand molds.........Most of these folks only ever play with
>===<>>> aluminum or lead, and most will still run out and buy kitty litter and
>===<>>> then come back latter complaiining that their refratory or greensand
>===<>...
>===<>
>===<>Roy, that's way different from using it in a pond. I'm sure the chemical
>===<>properties differ, but you were told the "physical properties are nearly
>===<>identical". In a pond, for planting purposes, or for sealing a natural
>===<>bottom, it makes little to no difference.


==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!
"The original frugal ponder"
~~~~ }<((((o> ~~~~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~~~~~ }<(((((o>