RE:Tank temp dropped

[C]

Power outage dropped tank temp to 62 in 24 hours. Im amazed at what is
coming back. Slow warm up back to 78 Might still lose our Hippo and
mybe our yellow But all corals are starting to look better. Will Post
more info over the next few days.
Any Advice would be great.


Just a follow up All is well
could not believe how fast things came back.
Both Tangs where laying on the bottom motionless but shallow beathing
After the water reached about 76 both got up and swam into the rock.
Figured Id be moving rock to get them out by morning.
Next morning WOW feeding time and they were starved LOL
All the corals are great as well. Ended up not loosing 1 thing
I have now invested in a Battery backup.

[rtk]

C wrote:

> Power outage dropped tank temp to 62 in 24 hours. Im amazed at what is
> coming back. ....................Ended up not loosing 1 thing
> I have now invested in a Battery backup.

I would like to know more about your battery backup. We have outages
quite regularly in the winter, but not of sufficient duration to warrant
grappling with a generator. A battery for just 1000 watts that could
last several hours would be a very good thing.

Ruth Kazez

[~Vicki ~]

I would like to know more about your battery backup. We have outages
quite regularly in the winter, but not of sufficient duration to warrant
grappling with a generator. A battery for just 1000 watts that could
last several hours would be a very good thing.
Ruth Kazez

This is a subject I learned a great deal about during our 6 day Isabel
power outage. Sports Authority or any good sporting supply store has
battery operated "BAIT" bubblers of different sizes and strengths in the
fishing department. K-Mart also carries them with a bait bucket (which
is were I got mine) and they should last 100 hours with two "D" sized
batteries. Even tho I did loose one fish before I located them, they
did save the rest of my stock. Best $40 I ever spent. Now I will be
ready the next time we loose power.

Vicki

Visit me on line at http://shamrock4u.250free.com

[Marc Levenson]

You can buy a UPS from CompUSA for $199. 1500w in the shape of a thin comptuer
tower. Should last a good long time, to keep your circulation up.

Marc


rtk wrote:

> C wrote:
>
> > Power outage dropped tank temp to 62 in 24 hours. Im amazed at what is
> > coming back. ....................Ended up not loosing 1 thing
> > I have now invested in a Battery backup.
>
> I would like to know more about your battery backup. We have outages
> quite regularly in the winter, but not of sufficient duration to warrant
> grappling with a generator. A battery for just 1000 watts that could
> last several hours would be a very good thing.
>
> Ruth Kazez

--
Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com

[Marc Levenson]

Both Ruth and I scored today on a new APC 1500 UPS from CompUSA. Just thought
I'd give y'all the heads up, incase you've been thinking about this for a while.

The UPS is normally $199, but on their website they are offering it for $149,
because of an "Instant Internet Rebate" of $50. I was about to buy it for that
price, but shipping was going to be $21 (ground rate), so I called the local
CompUSA and asked if I could pick it up at their store instead. They matched
their internet site's price, and my UPS is plugged in and protecting my 55g as
you read this now. (yay!)

This unit is designed for a max of 865w, which would only last 4 minutes.
However, 50w of power (like a couple of powerheads) would last 2 hours, if not
more. There is an addon to increase this time to 6 hours, but I didn't check on
that yet.

This is a great front line of defense in case power goes out and you aren't
home. And if you are and know the power will be out longer, you have the option
to buy a generator or a power inverter to get you by.

Marc


rtk wrote:

> C wrote:
>
> > Power outage dropped tank temp to 62 in 24 hours. Im amazed at what is
> > coming back. ....................Ended up not loosing 1 thing
> > I have now invested in a Battery backup.
>
> I would like to know more about your battery backup. We have outages
> quite regularly in the winter, but not of sufficient duration to warrant
> grappling with a generator. A battery for just 1000 watts that could
> last several hours would be a very good thing.
>
> Ruth Kazez

--
Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com

[CapFusion]

Marc, I heard sometime ago in this NG that the UPS will cause damage to the
motor or the magnet of the powerhead and in-turn shorten the life. Something
about frequency or something.

Temperary use - OK but not for permanent use.

CapFusion,...


"Marc Levenson" > wrote in message
...
> Both Ruth and I scored today on a new APC 1500 UPS from CompUSA. Just
thought
> I'd give y'all the heads up, incase you've been thinking about this for a
while.
>
> The UPS is normally $199, but on their website they are offering it for
$149,
> because of an "Instant Internet Rebate" of $50. I was about to buy it for
that
> price, but shipping was going to be $21 (ground rate), so I called the
local
> CompUSA and asked if I could pick it up at their store instead. They
matched
> their internet site's price, and my UPS is plugged in and protecting my
55g as
> you read this now. (yay!)
>
> This unit is designed for a max of 865w, which would only last 4 minutes.
> However, 50w of power (like a couple of powerheads) would last 2 hours, if
not
> more. There is an addon to increase this time to 6 hours, but I didn't
check on
> that yet.
>
> This is a great front line of defense in case power goes out and you
aren't
> home. And if you are and know the power will be out longer, you have the
option
> to buy a generator or a power inverter to get you by.
>
> Marc
>

[Richard Reynolds]

> Marc, I heard sometime ago in this NG that the UPS will cause damage to the
> motor or the magnet of the powerhead and in-turn shorten the life. Something
> about frequency or something.
>
> Temperary use - OK but not for permanent use.

luckly its only when in the backup mode

so permanent use is kinda skewed, the motor wont be as efficient, but itll work just the
same.

--
Richard Reynolds

[CapFusion]

I would still prefer a generator that will kick in when there a outage. You
never know how long the outage will last.

CapFusion,...


"Richard Reynolds" > wrote in message
news:Ghkhb.50319$gv5.48764@fed1read05...
> > Marc, I heard sometime ago in this NG that the UPS will cause damage to
the
> > motor or the magnet of the powerhead and in-turn shorten the life.
Something
> > about frequency or something.
> >
> > Temperary use - OK but not for permanent use.
>
> luckly its only when in the backup mode
>
> so permanent use is kinda skewed, the motor wont be as efficient, but itll
work just the
> same.
>
> --
> Richard Reynolds
>
>
>
>
>

[Brian]

A way I did it in the past was to get a normally open switch, some kind
of relay type thing. When it was plugged in to 120 volts the switch
would be open. When the power went out the switch would close and make
the contact for the 12 volt battery on one side and a 12 volt air pump
or bilge pump on the other side. This way it was automatic and I didn't
have to be there. If anybody wants more info let me know. I think it is
an Allen Bradley relay that came from granger supply. They are not cheap
but I helped the electrician at my old job with his pond and he "set me
up" with one really cheap :)

Richard Reynolds wrote:
>>Marc, I heard sometime ago in this NG that the UPS will cause damage to the
>>motor or the magnet of the powerhead and in-turn shorten the life. Something
>>about frequency or something.
>>
>>Temperary use - OK but not for permanent use.
>
>
> luckly its only when in the backup mode
>
> so permanent use is kinda skewed, the motor wont be as efficient, but itll work just the
> same.
>
> --
> Richard Reynolds
>
>
>
>
>

[Richard Reynolds]

> A way I did it in the past was to get a normally open switch, some kind
> of relay type thing. When it was plugged in to 120 volts the switch
> would be open. When the power went out the switch would close and make
> the contact for the 12 volt battery on one side and a 12 volt air pump
> or bilge pump on the other side. This way it was automatic and I didn't
> have to be there. If anybody wants more info let me know. I think it is
> an Allen Bradley relay that came from granger supply. They are not cheap
> but I helped the electrician at my old job with his pond and he "set me
> up" with one really cheap :)
>

you can do the same thing with a 12v battery with a float charger a air pump and a DPDT
relay the relay will set you back about $7 or 2 DPST relays total cost bout $4 at
digikey.com

air & water pumps & heaters can be had at aquaticeco.com or a fishing store, for a tad
more for SW safe.

the advantage of using a UPS is you can wire up a few more things
and even log the event you also often get a buzzer free of charge :)

--
Richard Reynolds

[Rick Wagner]

Isn't there an issue with some pumps and the clean signal/conditioned
signal a USP outputs?

-Rick

On Thu, 9 Oct 2003, Marc Levenson
wrote:

> Both Ruth and I scored today on a new APC 1500 UPS from CompUSA. Just thought
> I'd give y'all the heads up, incase you've been thinking about this for a while.
>
> The UPS is normally $199, but on their website they are offering it for $149,
> because of an "Instant Internet Rebate" of $50. I was about to buy it for that
> price, but shipping was going to be $21 (ground rate), so I called the local
> CompUSA and asked if I could pick it up at their store instead. They matched
> their internet site's price, and my UPS is plugged in and protecting my 55g as
> you read this now. (yay!)
>
> This unit is designed for a max of 865w, which would only last 4 minutes.
> However, 50w of power (like a couple of powerheads) would last 2 hours, if not
> more. There is an addon to increase this time to 6 hours, but I didn't check on
> that yet.
>
> This is a great front line of defense in case power goes out and you aren't
> home. And if you are and know the power will be out longer, you have the option
> to buy a generator or a power inverter to get you by.
>
> Marc
>
>
> rtk wrote:
>
> > C wrote:
> >
> > > Power outage dropped tank temp to 62 in 24 hours. Im amazed at what is
> > > coming back. ....................Ended up not loosing 1 thing
> > > I have now invested in a Battery backup.
> >
> > I would like to know more about your battery backup. We have outages
> > quite regularly in the winter, but not of sufficient duration to warrant
> > grappling with a generator. A battery for just 1000 watts that could
> > last several hours would be a very good thing.
> >
> > Ruth Kazez
>
> --
> Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
> Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
> Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com
>
>
>

--
-----------
"It is amazing when two strangers become
the best of friends, but it is sad when
best friends become two strangers"

[CapFusion]

"Rick Wagner" > wrote in message
...
> Isn't there an issue with some pumps and the clean signal/conditioned
> signal a USP outputs?
>
> -Rick
>
Yes there was an issue about that but I can not seem to find that debate
awhile back.

CapFusion,...

[Marc Levenson]

I've never had a problem. Some people have commented that their pump 'sounded'
strange when hooked up to a power inverter or UPS, but I'd guess it would be a
pump with a pretty good draw of power.

The Mag 5 hums along nicely, with no change whatsoever, when the UPS kicks in.
I'm sure the Tunze Turbelle will behave as well, given their excellent
construction.

I love having a backup for those occasional power outages. If I could get that
upgrade for this UPS, I'd be able to keep 700gph of flow in my 55g for about 12
hours on it.

Right now I should be good for about 4 hours.

Marc


CapFusion wrote:

> "Rick Wagner" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Isn't there an issue with some pumps and the clean signal/conditioned
> > signal a USP outputs?
> >
> > -Rick
> >
> Yes there was an issue about that but I can not seem to find that debate
> awhile back.
>
> CapFusion,...

--
Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com

[CapFusion]

"Marc Levenson" > wrote in message ...
> I've never had a problem. Some people have commented that their pump 'sounded'
> strange when hooked up to a power inverter or UPS, but I'd guess it would be a
> pump with a pretty good draw of power.
>
> The Mag 5 hums along nicely, with no change whatsoever, when the UPS kicks in.
> I'm sure the Tunze Turbelle will behave as well, given their excellent
> construction.
>
> I love having a backup for those occasional power outages. If I could get that
> upgrade for this UPS, I'd be able to keep 700gph of flow in my 55g for about 12
> hours on it.
>
> Right now I should be good for about 4 hours.
>
> Marc

If my memory serve me, it more of frequency or wave of some sort and not how it draw the power. I have 1200AV APC that was connecting to all the powerhead, pump etc but was taking off as the end of the debate. Someone mention about how clean the UPS when in use instead of not using with UPS and should provide longer life as an extra benefit to the equipment but the answer is no. Get shorter lifespan.

Check this link 1 2 3

Note:
It is ok for temperary use but not as a long term. A power generator should be use when power outage.

CapFusion,...

[Richard Reynolds]

>If my memory serve me, it more of frequency or wave of some sort
correct the frequency is still 60hz but instead of a sine wave its a different (the exact
one depends almost totally on which UPS you get)

>and not how it draw the power. I have 1200AV APC that was connecting to all the
powerhead, pump etc but was taking off as the end of the debate.
this is correct, but only matters to a certain point, some will pass others wont.

>Someone mention about how clean the UPS when in use instead of not using with UPS and
should provide longer life as an extra benefit to the >equipment but the answer is no. Get
shorter lifespan.
this depends, almost ALL ups's have surge supression most even go as to have extra hookups
that are not backed up but still have surge supression. this can extend the life of
anything pluged into it.

>Note:
>It is ok for temperary use but not as a long term. A power generator should be use when
power outage.

this is still dependant on what is pluged in and how long you have to run your backup
device.

the straight house AC is passed thru the unit with only surge supression until the house
line drops below a cutoff voltage. in this mode there is no inefficiency. its when the
power is out that things happen.

you can continue to read further white papers at APC's site that will cover this. its not
exactly like putting a trigger in a reef, instead its more like using a 10g Q tank for a
8" sailfin tang, if you live where I do power outages are rare, a computer UPS is good
enough. if you live 200 miles past BFE or somewhere where you have daily power outages or
even seasional outages a generator or proper battery unit should be used. another note
these can be had cheaper than APC's prices, and running 12/24 vdc devices for backup use
is even more efficient costs less and involves less hardware.


>CapFusion,...


--
Richard Reynolds

[w_tom]

UPS running small electric motors is a function of the spec
called THD for that UPS when it is in battery backup mode.
UPS connects that electric motor directly to AC mains when not
in battery backup mode which is why threat to motor normally
does not exist. Plug-in UPS has potential to damage small
motors AND does not claim protection from destructive surges.
Discussion in the newsgroup rec.aquaria.marine.reefs on 14
Mar 2001 entitled "Question: UPS on a Reef Tank" or at
http://tinyurl.com/qlgu .

CapFusion wrote:
> "Rick Wagner" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Isn't there an issue with some pumps and the clean
>> signal/conditioned signal a USP outputs?
>> -Rick
>
> Yes there was an issue about that but I can not seem to find
> that debate awhile back.

[CapFusion]

"w_tom" > wrote in message
...
> UPS running small electric motors is a function of the spec
> called THD for that UPS when it is in battery backup mode.
> UPS connects that electric motor directly to AC mains when not
> in battery backup mode which is why threat to motor normally
> does not exist. Plug-in UPS has potential to damage small
> motors AND does not claim protection from destructive surges.
> Discussion in the newsgroup rec.aquaria.marine.reefs on 14
> Mar 2001 entitled "Question: UPS on a Reef Tank" or at
> http://tinyurl.com/qlgu .
>

Something like that. Still, you never know the backup batter will activate
when there is a spike or something that may trigger it. The UPS will be
advantage if it last until you noticed the power failure but it useless if
it last more then certain amount of time.

As this can be debatable. It really depend on the point-of-view at how you
look at it. Buy extra time for your tank or risking your equipement.

CapFusion,....

[w_tom]

Something like 800 consecutive spikes would pass through a
plug-in UPS before it even THOUGHT about responding. It is
just another little fact that plug-in UPSes forget to
mention. Spike protection in plug-in UPSes is simply
ineffective for too many reasons.

A UPS is to maintain power when 120 VAC drops below 90 volts
or disappears. Furthermore, the THD spec should be consulted
- a number best kept down around or under 2% - to protect
those electric motors. Because computers are so resilient,
then computer UPSes are not recommended for pump motors. A
plug-in UPS that exceeds what is acceptable for computers is
better for those electric motors - because computers are so
resilient and small motors are more easily damaged.

As for spike protection, it is more effective (and also less
expensive) if located when power enters the building at the
breaker box.

CapFusion wrote:
> "w_tom" > wrote in message
> ...
> > UPS running small electric motors is a function of the spec
> > called THD for that UPS when it is in battery backup mode.
> > UPS connects that electric motor directly to AC mains when not
> > in battery backup mode which is why threat to motor normally
> > does not exist. Plug-in UPS has potential to damage small
> > motors AND does not claim protection from destructive surges.
> > Discussion in the newsgroup rec.aquaria.marine.reefs on 14
> > Mar 2001 entitled "Question: UPS on a Reef Tank" or at
> > http://tinyurl.com/qlgu .
> >
>
> Something like that. Still, you never know the backup batter will activate
> when there is a spike or something that may trigger it. The UPS will be
> advantage if it last until you noticed the power failure but it useless if
> it last more then certain amount of time.
>
> As this can be debatable. It really depend on the point-of-view at how you
> look at it. Buy extra time for your tank or risking your equipement.
>
> CapFusion,....

[CapFusion]

Thank w_tom.

As w_tom meantion, this are just a few reason why motor like powerhear and
such do not really last too long with UPS. General thinking, it good to have
a protection against powerfailure and try to keep the tank running but at
the same time, it cost of maintaining the equipement.

I would recommend a gas power generator as investment. You can use it for
your picnic to generator power ... etc.... A general purpose uses, not just
for power-outage.

CapFusion,...

"w_tom" > wrote in message
...
> Something like 800 consecutive spikes would pass through a
> plug-in UPS before it even THOUGHT about responding. It is
> just another little fact that plug-in UPSes forget to
> mention. Spike protection in plug-in UPSes is simply
> ineffective for too many reasons.
>
> A UPS is to maintain power when 120 VAC drops below 90 volts
> or disappears. Furthermore, the THD spec should be consulted
> - a number best kept down around or under 2% - to protect
> those electric motors. Because computers are so resilient,
> then computer UPSes are not recommended for pump motors. A
> plug-in UPS that exceeds what is acceptable for computers is
> better for those electric motors - because computers are so
> resilient and small motors are more easily damaged.
>
> As for spike protection, it is more effective (and also less
> expensive) if located when power enters the building at the
> breaker box.
>

[Raymond]

w_tom > wrote in message >...
> Something like 800 consecutive spikes would pass through a
> plug-in UPS before it even THOUGHT about responding. It is
> just another little fact that plug-in UPSes forget to
> mention. Spike protection in plug-in UPSes is simply
> ineffective for too many reasons.
>
> A UPS is to maintain power when 120 VAC drops below 90 volts
> or disappears. Furthermore, the THD spec should be consulted
> - a number best kept down around or under 2% - to protect
> those electric motors. Because computers are so resilient,
> then computer UPSes are not recommended for pump motors. A
> plug-in UPS that exceeds what is acceptable for computers is
> better for those electric motors - because computers are so
> resilient and small motors are more easily damaged.
>
> As for spike protection, it is more effective (and also less
> expensive) if located when power enters the building at the
> breaker box.

OK I've read through this thread and there are a couple of things that
need said. Total Harmonic Distortion (THD) is going to make very
little difference to a power head. Sine wave versus square wave does
matter. None of the stand by UPS's that I have read the specs on
switch to batter power on spikes or surges. They will on some models
switch over to batter power on prolonged over voltage conditions. The
spike/surge suppression is handled, like all surge suppression
devices, with a solid state device usually a MOV (Metal Oxide
Varister) BTW all surge suppressors have a finite life span. After
they have taken so many surges they cease to function.

I am not up on what the wave form looks like for all the popular UPS's
out there but the closer to a sine wave the better. Even for standard
square wave output I would still think that a UPS that may shorten the
life of your power head is better than a dead tank. The square wave is
going to increase the heat generated in the windings in the motor. In
the case of a power head I wouldn't think that this would be to much
of a problem. For external pumps especially if they run on the hot
side anyway this may indeed be a pump killer.

I have and will continue to use a UPS or UPS's on my tanks. The little
risk that there is to the pumps is more than compensated for in the
protection of the tank inhabitants.

[Marc Levenson]

I agree, because the loss of a powerhead versus a tank is just too high. And you
aren't always there to fire up a generator as needed.

Buying a full system setup for me isn't an option either, unless I want to buy a giant
propane storage cylinder as well, because our street doesn't even receive natural gas.

The Tunze Turbelle has a built-in protection to help keep the powerhead from being
ruined. I don't know if that only pertains to a physical jamming event, or if it is
unusual current, but either way I'd rather keep the flow going as long as it will.
There are times I've woken up at 1pm and the power to the tank was off for no apparent
reason for a number of hours. Resetting the breaker solved it, but as it doesn't trip
regularly or in any specific pattern, I can't isolate and solve that problem. (It
hasn't tripped in 30 to 60 days......)

Marc


Raymond wrote:

> I have and will continue to use a UPS or UPS's on my tanks. The little
> risk that there is to the pumps is more than compensated for in the
> protection of the tank inhabitants.

--
Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com

[CapFusion]

The generator should be setup as auto-start when sense there is a powerloss
in your house. It just like a BIG UPS, in away-of-saying. Depending on your
circuit and how many heavy appliance running, you can try turning a
Microwave ON and later your Frigerator get turn on, your circuit will cause
a spike or drain. If the UPS is on that same circuit, it should activate it
battery backup for about a split second or so or until your circuit get
stable.

In my situation, I no longer use UPS for my tank. The only equipement uses
UPS are PC and home electronic [DVD/VCR/TV etc]. The gas power-generator
will activate when there are loss of power to the house. All equipement will
have some surge device . According to above
mention, I am not too worry about power-loss or outage to the whole house or
how long. I can easily refuel the tank and will last another few hours.

I am not sure about Propane generator but I refer a "gas" version. Depending
on the generator, for a small generator with one full tank should last about
few hours instead of 30 min... unlike UPS.

Again, everyone have their point-of-view. Keeping the tank going is the main
goal from some and other will want it to last as long as possible. These are
the main keys between this debate regarding UPS. This is where I will end.

CapFusion,...


"Marc Levenson" > wrote in message
...
> I agree, because the loss of a powerhead versus a tank is just too high.
And you
> aren't always there to fire up a generator as needed.
>
> Buying a full system setup for me isn't an option either, unless I want to
buy a giant
> propane storage cylinder as well, because our street doesn't even receive
natural gas.
>
> The Tunze Turbelle has a built-in protection to help keep the powerhead
from being
> ruined. I don't know if that only pertains to a physical jamming event,
or if it is
> unusual current, but either way I'd rather keep the flow going as long as
it will.
> There are times I've woken up at 1pm and the power to the tank was off for
no apparent
> reason for a number of hours. Resetting the breaker solved it, but as it
doesn't trip
> regularly or in any specific pattern, I can't isolate and solve that
problem. (It
> hasn't tripped in 30 to 60 days......)
>
> Marc
>
>
> Raymond wrote:
>[i]
> > I have and will continue to use a UPS or UPS's on my tanks. The little
> > risk that there is to the pumps is more than compensated for in the
> > protection of the tank inhabitants.
>
> --
> Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
> Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
> Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com
>
>

[Raymond]

Marc Levenson > wrote in message >...
> I agree, because the loss of a powerhead versus a tank is just too high. And you
> aren't always there to fire up a generator as needed.
>
> Buying a full system setup for me isn't an option either, unless I want to buy a giant
> propane storage cylinder as well, because our street doesn't even receive natural gas.
>
> The Tunze Turbelle has a built-in protection to help keep the powerhead from being
> ruined. I don't know if that only pertains to a physical jamming event, or if it is
> unusual current, but either way I'd rather keep the flow going as long as it will.
> There are times I've woken up at 1pm and the power to the tank was off for no apparent
> reason for a number of hours. Resetting the breaker solved it, but as it doesn't trip
> regularly or in any specific pattern, I can't isolate and solve that problem. (It
> hasn't tripped in 30 to 60 days......)
>
> Marc

Are you using GFI protection?
If your not you might try installing a couple GFI protected outlets.
This probably won't fix anything but may help you figure it out and is
much safer....

[Marc Levenson]

Thanks Raymond, I do have a GFCI circuit as well as a regular circuit, both are equally
divided with tank equipment so hopefully one will still run in the event of a trip.

Marc


Raymond wrote:

> Are you using GFI protection?
> If your not you might try installing a couple GFI protected outlets.
> This probably won't fix anything but may help you figure it out and is
> much safer....

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[w_tom]

First, do not confuse surge protection (a very excessively
high voltage) with blackout and brownout protection (low or no
voltage). UPS provides protection from blackouts and
brownouts. It also protects from one type of surge that does
not typically exist. It does not provide effective protection
from the type of surge that does damage.

Plug-in UPSes simply avoid discussing those different type
of surges so that you will thing it protects from all type of
surges. Effective surge protection must be installed
elsewhere.

Second, plug-in UPSes output varying type of waveforms.
Typically, they connect an appliance direct to AC mains when
not in battery backup mode. That means very clean AC
waveforms - except when in battery backup.

A plug-in UPS switches in battery backup may output
destructive waveforms. This 120 VAC UPS output is two 200
volt square waves with a spike between them that can be as
much as 270 volts. Is that a sine wave? Yes. Is it called a
stepped sine wave. How they play games with words rather than
dare provide a spec number.

Why would a 200 volt square wave be so destructive to small
motors? High school mathematics. The square wave is a sum of
harmonic sine waves - at 60 Hz, 180 Hz, 300 Hz, etc. Put all
those sine waves together on a UPS output to get a square
wave. Small motors will overheat if exposed to those higher
frequency sine waves. Many plug-in UPS manufacturers will
warn not to use small motors on their UPS. But they bury the
warning quite deeply in some distant application note.

These harmonics explain why the motor makes weird noises as
gets hotter. It works just fine when powered by that UPS not
in battery backup mode (IOW direct from AC mains). Even that
200 volt square wave may be called a simulated sine wave or
near sine wave. Without specific numbers such as THD or an
oscilloscope, then one does not know if that UPS really
outputs an acceptable sine wave. Word games used to avoid
listing a number.


Is your system on a GFCI? Just another reason why 'whole
house' surge protector is required AND plug-in UPS provides no
effective protection. GFCI is simply another electronic
device that can be destroyed by a surge. Damaged GFCI may
never permit power delivery.

1) 'Whole house' protector as mentioned in that other
discussion is required - for surges - not to be confused with
blackouts and brownouts.

2) If using a plug-in UPS for blackout/brownouts, then it
must be carefully selected for low harmonics meaning that even
a small UPS would cost significantly more than $100.

Raymond wrote:
> OK I've read through this thread and there are a couple of things that
> need said. Total Harmonic Distortion (THD) is going to make very
> little difference to a power head. Sine wave versus square wave does
> matter. None of the stand by UPS's that I have read the specs on
> switch to batter power on spikes or surges. They will on some models
> switch over to batter power on prolonged over voltage conditions. The
> spike/surge suppression is handled, like all surge suppression
> devices, with a solid state device usually a MOV (Metal Oxide
> Varister) BTW all surge suppressors have a finite life span. After
> they have taken so many surges they cease to function.
>
> I am not up on what the wave form looks like for all the popular UPS's
> out there but the closer to a sine wave the better. Even for standard
> square wave output I would still think that a UPS that may shorten the
> life of your power head is better than a dead tank. The square wave is
> going to increase the heat generated in the windings in the motor. In
> the case of a power head I wouldn't think that this would be to much
> of a problem. For external pumps especially if they run on the hot
> side anyway this may indeed be a pump killer.
>
> I have and will continue to use a UPS or UPS's on my tanks. The little
> risk that there is to the pumps is more than compensated for in the
> protection of the tank inhabitants.

[Raymond]

OK I was real tempted to not reply to any of this but decided that
other people reading would be mis-lead. See comments below...

w_tom > wrote in message >...
> First, do not confuse surge protection (a very excessively
> high voltage) with blackout and brownout protection (low or no
> voltage). UPS provides protection from blackouts and
> brownouts. It also protects from one type of surge that does
> not typically exist. It does not provide effective protection
> from the type of surge that does damage.

There may be some UPS somewhere that doesn't have surge protection but
I haven't seen it. The little home/office APC's all have it. The
Triplites have it. One of APC's big selling points is that they will
cover the cost of any equipment that was damaged while plugged into
one of their UPS's. This even includes lightning.

> Plug-in UPSes simply avoid discussing those different type
> of surges so that you will thing it protects from all type of
> surges. Effective surge protection must be installed
> elsewhere.

I will add that it can be more cost affective to have the surge
protection else where.

> Second, plug-in UPSes output varying type of waveforms.
> Typically, they connect an appliance direct to AC mains when
> not in battery backup mode. That means very clean AC
> waveforms - except when in battery backup.

Correct...

> A plug-in UPS switches in battery backup may output
> destructive waveforms. This 120 VAC UPS output is two 200
> volt square waves with a spike between them that can be as
> much as 270 volts. Is that a sine wave? Yes. Is it called a
> stepped sine wave. How they play games with words rather than
> dare provide a spec number.

OK this kinda looks like troll stuff. The highest I have ever measure
a UPS overvoltage was about 160 volts. This was in the unloaded
(nothing plugged into it) state.

There is a good point here though and that is that most UPS's are
designed for half load conditions. That means that if you buy a 500
watt UPS it will be closest to the spec when you plug 250 watts worth
of stuff into it....

> Why would a 200 volt square wave be so destructive to small
> motors? High school mathematics. The square wave is a sum of
> harmonic sine waves - at 60 Hz, 180 Hz, 300 Hz, etc. Put all
> those sine waves together on a UPS output to get a square
> wave. Small motors will overheat if exposed to those higher
> frequency sine waves. Many plug-in UPS manufacturers will
> warn not to use small motors on their UPS. But they bury the
> warning quite deeply in some distant application note.

I'm not to sure what to say to this. I guess I had different high
schoot mathematics.

I do agree that square wave power sources cause excess heat.

> Is your system on a GFCI? Just another reason why 'whole
> house' surge protector is required AND plug-in UPS provides no
> effective protection. GFCI is simply another electronic
> device that can be destroyed by a surge. Damaged GFCI may
> never permit power delivery.

I don't get this one either. Is having a GFCI the reason you should
have your whole house surge protected or not having a GFCI?
Any electronic device can be destroyed by a surge and yes this would
include a GFCI. Yep a damaged GFCI may not permit power delivery but
this is also true of a power cord the AC outlet itself....

> 1) 'Whole house' protector as mentioned in that other
> discussion is required - for surges - not to be confused with
> blackouts and brownouts.

I still don't see why....
There are many stand along surge suppressors made in addition to what
is supplied by the UPS when new.

> 2) If using a plug-in UPS for blackout/brownouts, then it
> must be carefully selected for low harmonics meaning that even
> a small UPS would cost significantly more than $100.

I don't believe this to be accurate. As you point out above the risk
is only when running from battery. The damage to AC motors is not
instant and even on the under designed already hot external pumps it
would take several minutes to cause a temp increase. Since most of us
are using the UPS for insurance against backouts I find this risk
perfectly acceptable for everything except hot running external pumps.
It would be perfectly acceptable for everything in the case of
brownouts IMO.

[w_tom]

First, a UPS has equivalent surge protector circuit found in
plug-in UPSes. They both suffer from same problem. They both
don't claim protection from surges that typically damage
electronics. They both only claim protection from a type of
surge that does not typically exist. A claim made so that
your will 'feel' it is protection from all types of surges.

For all practical purposes, no plug-in UPS provides
effective surge protection. Different for building wide
system that have the essential, 'typically less than 10 foot'
connection to earth ground. Earthing is why 'whole house'
protectors and building wide UPS systems provide effective
protection. Plug-in UPSes have all but no earth ground -
which is but another reason why such UPSes avoid all mention
of earthing AND fail to mention the many types of surges.

Neither power strip surge protectors nor plug-in UPSes
provide effective surge protection. In fact, if one thinks
otherwise, then cite that manufacturer's specifications and
those always important numbers. They fail to provide numbers
and avoid all mention of common mode surges - the destructive
surge - because they don't claim such protection. Bottom line
remains fundamental - a surge protector is only as effective
as its earth ground. Which is why 'whole house' protectors
cost tens of times less (as previously noted) and are so
effective.

Second, those warranties have a bad habit of not being
honored. In fact benchmark surge protector manufacturers
don't even offer a warranty. Same with automobiles. Hyundai
offers a warranty superiour to Honda or Toyota. That proves
the Hyundai is a more reliatble vehicle? Not likely.
Generally the bigger a warranty, the less effective a surge
protector. Warranty fine print is so often not provided with
the surge protector. One discovers those fine print
conditions only when filing a claim.

Raymond wrote:
> One of APC's big selling points is that they will cover the cost
> of any equipment that was damaged while plugged into one of
> their UPS's.

How well did APC honor its warranties?
W D Loughman on 11 May 2001 in comp.os.os2.misc entitled
"UPS advice"
> Don't take too seriously the implied protection of your monetary
> investment when APC says: "...UPS comes with a $25,000 lifetime
> hardware replacement guarantee."

> Described in this newsgroup late last year, their UPS failure
> caused me to spend c. $1200 on replacement equipment. After
> their own investigation of the damagING unit, they did not
> dispute the UPS failure. However, they reimbursed me only $200,
> no arguments accepted, with a required waiver = "Sign this now",
> or get nothing. They use a sort of "Blue Book" for computers,
> and paid only the values listed therein. NOT replacement cost.
> Cover your financial losses some other way, 'cause they sure
> won't. Buyer beware!

Third, Rayond posted:
> The highest I have ever measure a UPS overvoltage was about
> 160 volts. This was in the unloaded (nothing plugged into it)
> state.
If the meter is truly RMS, then a 200 volt square waves with
a 270 volt spike would measure 120 VAC on that meter. To see
an actual and 'dirty' battery backup voltage requires an
oscilloscope. Most who recommend a UPS for clean power don't
even use an oscilloscope. But if it is not obvious by now,
this is not troll stuff. It is what an electrical engineer
sees often from UPSes. That 200 volts with 270 volt spike is
no problem for a computer; but not good for small motors.
Anyone using a meter will see nothing of what is really being
output.

Furthermore if a UPS outputs 160 VAC without load, then that
UPS is a threat to smaller household electronics as well as
motors. 120 VAC electronics must never confront more than 130
VAC continuous. That UPS outputting as much as 160 VAC is
also dangerous to little appliances as well as smallest
motors.

Fourth, GFCI is but one of maybe 100+ reasons for
installing a 'whole house' protector. GFCIs are installed in
kitchens and bathrooms for human safety. What protects them?
There is no reason for any GFCI to be damaged because 'whoe
house' protectors, properly installed, are so effective. If
your hobby is also powered by a GFCI receptacle and no 'whole
house' protector, then occupants of that tank are at greater
risk due to GFCI failure.

Summary:
1) That UPS provides same ineffective protector circuits found
in power strip surge protectors. Effective surge protection
is called 'whole house' for the obvious reason - a surge
protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

2) Harmonics and other voltage extremes are a threat to small
motors when replacement motors would be most difficult to
obtain - during a blackout. More money should be spent on a
low harmonic UPS that is too good for computers but is
essential to protect small motors during battery backup.

Raymond wrote:
> OK I was real tempted to not reply to any of this but decided that
> other people reading would be mis-lead. See comments below...
>
> w_tom > wrote in message >...
>> First, do not confuse surge protection (a very excessively
>> high voltage) with blackout and brownout protection (low or no
>> voltage). UPS provides protection from blackouts and
>> brownouts. It also protects from one type of surge that does
>> not typically exist. It does not provide effective protection
>> from the type of surge that does damage.
>
> There may be some UPS somewhere that doesn't have surge protection but
> I haven't seen it. The little home/office APC's all have it. The
> Triplites have it. One of APC's big selling points is that they will
> cover the cost of any equipment that was damaged while plugged into
> one of their UPS's. This even includes lightning.
>
>> Plug-in UPSes simply avoid discussing those different type
>> of surges so that you will thing it protects from all type of
>> surges. Effective surge protection must be installed
>> elsewhere.
>
> I will add that it can be more cost affective to have the surge
> protection else where.
>
>> Second, plug-in UPSes output varying type of waveforms.
>> Typically, they connect an appliance direct to AC mains when
>> not in battery backup mode. That means very clean AC
>> waveforms - except when in battery backup.
>
> Correct...
>
>> A plug-in UPS switches in battery backup may output
>> destructive waveforms. This 120 VAC UPS output is two 200
>> volt square waves with a spike between them that can be as
>> much as 270 volts. Is that a sine wave? Yes. Is it called a
>> stepped sine wave. How they play games with words rather than
>> dare provide a spec number.
>
> OK this kinda looks like troll stuff. The highest I have ever
> measure a UPS overvoltage was about 160 volts. This was in the
> unloaded (nothing plugged into it) state.
>
> There is a good point here though and that is that most UPS's are
> designed for half load conditions. That means that if you buy a 500
> watt UPS it will be closest to the spec when you plug 250 watts worth
> of stuff into it....
>
>> Why would a 200 volt square wave be so destructive to small
>> motors? High school mathematics. The square wave is a sum of
>> harmonic sine waves - at 60 Hz, 180 Hz, 300 Hz, etc. Put all
>> those sine waves together on a UPS output to get a square
>> wave. Small motors will overheat if exposed to those higher
>> frequency sine waves. Many plug-in UPS manufacturers will
>> warn not to use small motors on their UPS. But they bury the
>> warning quite deeply in some distant application note.
>
> I'm not to sure what to say to this. I guess I had different high
> schoot mathematics.
>
> I do agree that square wave power sources cause excess heat.
>
>> Is your system on a GFCI? Just another reason why 'whole
>> house' surge protector is required AND plug-in UPS provides no
>> effective protection. GFCI is simply another electronic
>> device that can be destroyed by a surge. Damaged GFCI may
>> never permit power delivery.
>
> I don't get this one either. Is having a GFCI the reason you should
> have your whole house surge protected or not having a GFCI?
> Any electronic device can be destroyed by a surge and yes this would
> include a GFCI. Yep a damaged GFCI may not permit power delivery but
> this is also true of a power cord the AC outlet itself....
>
>> 1) 'Whole house' protector as mentioned in that other
>> discussion is required - for surges - not to be confused with
>> blackouts and brownouts.
>
> I still don't see why....
> There are many stand along surge suppressors made in addition to what
> is supplied by the UPS when new.
>
>> 2) If using a plug-in UPS for blackout/brownouts, then it
>> must be carefully selected for low harmonics meaning that even
>> a small UPS would cost significantly more than $100.
>
> I don't believe this to be accurate. As you point out above the risk
> is only when running from battery. The damage to AC motors is not
> instant and even on the under designed already hot external pumps it
> would take several minutes to cause a temp increase. Since most of us
> are using the UPS for insurance against backouts I find this risk
> perfectly acceptable for everything except hot running external pumps.
> It would be perfectly acceptable for everything in the case of
> brownouts IMO.

[Raymond]

w_tom > wrote in message >...
> First, a UPS has equivalent surge protector circuit found in
> plug-in UPSes. They both suffer from same problem. They both
> don't claim protection from surges that typically damage
> electronics. They both only claim protection from a type of
> surge that does not typically exist. A claim made so that
> your will 'feel' it is protection from all types of surges.

Now I'm quite sure that if I go back and read your ealier posts that
you said that UPSes don't have surge protection. Actually what you
said was "Something like 800 consecutive spikes would pass through a
plug-in UPS before it even THOUGHT about responding."

So what are you saying a UPS is if not a "plug-in" UPS?

What type of surge are you saying damages electronics if not the type
protected by typical surge suppressors?

> For all practical purposes, no plug-in UPS provides
> effective surge protection. Different for building wide
> system that have the essential, 'typically less than 10 foot'
> connection to earth ground. Earthing is why 'whole house'
> protectors and building wide UPS systems provide effective
> protection. Plug-in UPSes have all but no earth ground -
> which is but another reason why such UPSes avoid all mention
> of earthing AND fail to mention the many types of surges.

Most of the better UPSes have wiring fault warning lights. They will
not detect all wiring faults. If the ground wire in the AC outlet does
not run to earth ground then yes there will be problems. That has
nothing to do with the UPS however.

> Neither power strip surge protectors nor plug-in UPSes
> provide effective surge protection. In fact, if one thinks
> otherwise, then cite that manufacturer's specifications and
> those always important numbers. They fail to provide numbers
> and avoid all mention of common mode surges - the destructive
> surge - because they don't claim such protection. Bottom line
> remains fundamental - a surge protector is only as effective
> as its earth ground. Which is why 'whole house' protectors
> cost tens of times less (as previously noted) and are so
> effective.

Most surge suppressor specs specify the amount of energy they will
absorb in joules. Some give a maximum current rating as well. These
specs aren't hard to find you just go look. I did a quick google
search and they are all over the place.

When you say "common mode surge" I'm going to assume that you are
talking about the common conductor in the AC wiring. The hot wire is
shunted to ground if a surge occures. If the common wire has any value
much above ground then there is a wiring fault.

You are correct in stating that a surge protector is only as effective
as its earth ground but why do you think this applies only to whole
house protectors?

Also please tell us what you mean by a whole house protector. Is this
a special breaker or something that is run on the 220 line in or what?

> Third, Rayond posted:
> > The highest I have ever measure a UPS overvoltage was about
> > 160 volts. This was in the unloaded (nothing plugged into it)
> > state.
> If the meter is truly RMS, then a 200 volt square waves with
> a 270 volt spike would measure 120 VAC on that meter. To see
> an actual and 'dirty' battery backup voltage requires an
> oscilloscope. Most who recommend a UPS for clean power don't
> even use an oscilloscope. But if it is not obvious by now,
> this is not troll stuff. It is what an electrical engineer
> sees often from UPSes. That 200 volts with 270 volt spike is
> no problem for a computer; but not good for small motors.
> Anyone using a meter will see nothing of what is really being
> output.

You can't say that a 200 volt square wave with a 270 volt spike would
give a 120 volt RMS reading with out knowing the pulse width. RMS is
simply an averaging formula. Root-mean-squared is simply a way to rate
the amount of work a given varable or AC voltage can do. If a 200 volt
square wave has a 166 ms on time and a 166 ms off time then it will
have a higher RMS value than a sign wave at the same voltage because
it is at the voltage extremes for a longer amount of time. However if
a 200 volt square wave has a 20 ms on time and 20 ms off time then it
would have a lower RMS value than the same voltage sign wave.

I think the point has been made that most of the cheaper UPSes will
cause increased heat (and therefore shorten the life) in motors.

> Furthermore if a UPS outputs 160 VAC without load, then that
> UPS is a threat to smaller household electronics as well as
> motors. 120 VAC electronics must never confront more than 130
> VAC continuous. That UPS outputting as much as 160 VAC is
> also dangerous to little appliances as well as smallest
> motors.

This of course is correct. Actually many electrical devices designed
for 120
V can handle well in excess of 130V but I'm not trying to say that
that would be a good thing. The UPS in question with as little as a 10
watt load would allow the UPS to start regulating correctly. This was
on the small to mid-sized Triplite UPSes about 10 years ago BTW.

> Fourth, GFCI is but one of maybe 100+ reasons for
> installing a 'whole house' protector. GFCIs are installed in
> kitchens and bathrooms for human safety. What protects them?
> There is no reason for any GFCI to be damaged because 'whoe
> house' protectors, properly installed, are so effective. If
> your hobby is also powered by a GFCI receptacle and no 'whole
> house' protector, then occupants of that tank are at greater
> risk due to GFCI failure.

OK you really need to clarify what you are talking about when you say
"whole house" protector. GFCIs are based on hot to common current
comparison. It is not dependant on a good ground. GFCI circuits do
fail and I'm sure could be destroyed by a surge but they fail for
other reasons as well. That is why most of them have a test button.

> Summary:
> 1) That UPS provides same ineffective protector circuits found
> in power strip surge protectors. Effective surge protection
> is called 'whole house' for the obvious reason - a surge
> protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

This still makes no sense. All surge suppressors require an earth
ground regardless of size and location.

> 2) Harmonics and other voltage extremes are a threat to small
> motors when replacement motors would be most difficult to
> obtain - during a blackout. More money should be spent on a
> low harmonic UPS that is too good for computers but is
> essential to protect small motors during battery backup.

I think you are over stating the threat. I have an oscilliscope and
have used it to look at several UPS wave forms. I can't claim that I
have looked at them all and in fact I can't even claim that I have
looked at the UPS I last used but I'm not making these statements
blindly.

I still stand by my last statement that most hobby motors will last
for at least many hours if not days running on the battery supplied
AC. The exception to this may be hot running external pumps.

I should state that I have not run tests other than a short 30 minute
run down test (in which I had 0 problems) and there for can't "prove"
anything. I will continue to use UPSes on my tanks without fear of
destroying everything plugged into it....

[Dragon Slayer]

>
> You are correct in stating that a surge protector is only as effective
> as its earth ground ..............
>

I'd disagree to a degree on that statement. as long as you are shunting
the difference in potential its not required to be shunted to earth ground.
you are preventing a surge either way. much like using a floating ground,
it's the complete null of the induced even when its at a 10,000V difference
from "earth ground" either to the positive or negative side.

>
> You can't say that a 200 volt square wave with a 270 volt spike would
> give a 120 volt RMS reading with out knowing the pulse width. RMS is
> simply an averaging formula. Root-mean-squared is simply a way to rate
> the amount of work a given varable or AC voltage can do. If a 200 volt
> square wave has a 166 ms on time and a 166 ms off time then it will
> have a higher RMS value than a sign wave at the same voltage because
> it is at the voltage extremes for a longer amount of time. However if
> a 200 volt square wave has a 20 ms on time and 20 ms off time then it
> would have a lower RMS value than the same voltage sign wave.

your only changing frequency, not value of RMS. at any frequency (referred
to as on/off time in your post) if voltage and frequency are equal in both
sine and square waves, the square and sine wave will have an equal RMS. you
mention being at extreme voltage for a longer amount of time, but its also
at the negative extreme a longer amount of time and therefore nulls the
difference.

kc

[w_tom]

The typically destructive surge is common mode - a concept
in any first EE course and beyond the scope of this
newsgroup. Common mode - a fundamental electrical concept as
penicillin is to medicine and escrow account is to real
estate. One without comprehending differential and common
mode cannot responsibly discuss or recommend two important
components in a 'system' - surge protector and surge
protection. Concepts that ineffective protectors avoid to
sell to a naive retail public. Citations to clarify this and
most other questions are listed below.

What does lighting seek? Earth ground. Appliances are
damaged when they are a shortest electrical path from cloud to
earth. Plug-in UPS provides no effective protection since it
provides no shorter path to earth. It does not stop, block,
or absorb the surge. It just gives the surge more possible
paths to earth - some destructively via adjacent electronics.
Common mode is the typically destructive surge. The type of
surge that plug-in UPS and power strip surge protector
manufacturers go to great lengths to ignore and avoid
discussing.

Again, a surge protector does not stop, block, filter, or
absorb surges. However too many quickly assume, for example -
> Most surge suppressor specs specify the amount of energy
> they will absorb in joules.
Simply does not work that way. What joules really measure is,
again, in below cited discussions. Bottom line: you have been
deceived by assumption that, for example, a 345 joules
protector is for absorbing surges up to 345 joules. Surge
protectors do not protect by absorbing transients. But then
this is the confusion that plug-in UPS and power strip
protector manufacturers feed on - at great profit.

That wiring fault light does not make any claim about earth
ground. Where in instructions is earthing mentioned? Again,
to confuse or deceive, they only say 'ground'. Leaving the
consumer to 'assume' all grounds are same (AND that all surges
are same). Big difference between safety ground and earth
ground. Manufacturers have found it profitable to deceive.
What is the difference? See the below cited discussion among
engineers in misc.rural.

How to identify ineffective surge protection (power strip or
UPS)? No dedicated and less than 10 foot connection to earth
ground. And avoids all discussion about earthing. Two simple
rules that identify ineffective protectors. The 'whys' had
been posted elsewhere and are cited below. Key on these
important descriptors: 'Less than 10 foot' and 'single point
earth ground'.

A retail 'whole house' protector is sold in Home Depot -
either Intermatic EG240RC or IG1240RC, or Siemens QSA2020.
That is effective protector for less than $1 per protected
appliance. A surge protector does not stop, block, filter, or
absorb surges. An effective surge protector *shunts* -
connects all wires to earth ground during the surge. Just
like a switch that automatically closes during the surge. But
that switch - that shunt - that connection is only as
effective as single point earth ground. Details provided
below:

Concepts were summarized in "Opinions on Surge Protectors?"
on 7 Jul 2003 in the newsgroup alt.certification.a-plus or
http://tinyurl.com/l3m9

More details were provided in "Power Surge" on 29 Sept 2003
in the newsgroup alt.comp.hardware or
http://tinyurl.com/p1rk

Earthing was discussed in two threads in the newsgroup
misc.rural
Storm and Lightning damage in the country 28 Jul 2002
Lightning Nightmares!! 10 Aug 2002
http://tinyurl.com/ghgv or http://tinyurl.com/ghgm

The plug-in UPS is for one thing - provide temporary power
when 120 VAC drops typically below 95 volts. Effective
transient protector is something different, located elsewhere
at the service entrance, where all utility wires enter the
building, and connected to that essential single point earth
ground.

Raymond wrote:
> Now I'm quite sure that if I go back and read your ealier posts that
> you said that UPSes don't have surge protection. Actually what you
> said was "Something like 800 consecutive spikes would pass through a
> plug-in UPS before it even THOUGHT about responding."
>
> So what are you saying a UPS is if not a "plug-in" UPS?
>
> What type of surge are you saying damages electronics if not the type
> protected by typical surge suppressors?
> ...
>
> Most of the better UPSes have wiring fault warning lights. They will
> not detect all wiring faults. If the ground wire in the AC outlet does
> not run to earth ground then yes there will be problems. That has
> nothing to do with the UPS however.
> ...
>
> Most surge suppressor specs specify the amount of energy they will
> absorb in joules. Some give a maximum current rating as well. These
> specs aren't hard to find you just go look. I did a quick google
> search and they are all over the place.
>
> When you say "common mode surge" I'm going to assume that you are
> talking about the common conductor in the AC wiring. The hot wire is
> shunted to ground if a surge occures. If the common wire has any value
> much above ground then there is a wiring fault.
>
> You are correct in stating that a surge protector is only as effective
> as its earth ground but why do you think this applies only to whole
> house protectors?
>
> Also please tell us what you mean by a whole house protector. Is this
> a special breaker or something that is run on the 220 line in or what?
> ...
>
> You can't say that a 200 volt square wave with a 270 volt spike would
> give a 120 volt RMS reading with out knowing the pulse width. RMS is
> simply an averaging formula. Root-mean-squared is simply a way to rate
> the amount of work a given varable or AC voltage can do. If a 200 volt
> square wave has a 166 ms on time and a 166 ms off time then it will
> have a higher RMS value than a sign wave at the same voltage because
> it is at the voltage extremes for a longer amount of time. However if
> a 200 volt square wave has a 20 ms on time and 20 ms off time then it
> would have a lower RMS value than the same voltage sign wave.
>
> I think the point has been made that most of the cheaper UPSes will
> cause increased heat (and therefore shorten the life) in motors.
> ...
>
> This of course is correct. Actually many electrical devices designed
> for 120
> V can handle well in excess of 130V but I'm not trying to say that
> that would be a good thing. The UPS in question with as little as a 10
> watt load would allow the UPS to start regulating correctly. This was
> on the small to mid-sized Triplite UPSes about 10 years ago BTW.
> ...
>
> OK you really need to clarify what you are talking about when you say
> "whole house" protector. GFCIs are based on hot to common current
> comparison. It is not dependant on a good ground. GFCI circuits do
> fail and I'm sure could be destroyed by a surge but they fail for
> other reasons as well. That is why most of them have a test button.
>
>> Summary:
>> 1) That UPS provides same ineffective protector circuits found
>> in power strip surge protectors. Effective surge protection
>> is called 'whole house' for the obvious reason - a surge
>> protector is only as effective as its earth ground.
>
> This still makes no sense. All surge suppressors require an earth
> ground regardless of size and location.
>
> > 2) Harmonics and other voltage extremes are a threat to small
> > motors when replacement motors would be most difficult to
> > obtain - during a blackout. More money should be spent on a
> > low harmonic UPS that is too good for computers but is
> > essential to protect small motors during battery backup.
>
> I think you are over stating the threat. I have an oscilliscope and
> have used it to look at several UPS wave forms. I can't claim that I
> have looked at them all and in fact I can't even claim that I have
> looked at the UPS I last used but I'm not making these statements
> blindly.
>
> I still stand by my last statement that most hobby motors will last
> for at least many hours if not days running on the battery supplied
> AC. The exception to this may be hot running external pumps.
>
> I should state that I have not run tests other than a short 30 minute
> run down test (in which I had 0 problems) and there for can't "prove"
> anything. I will continue to use UPSes on my tanks without fear of
> destroying everything plugged into it....

[Raymond]

OK w_tom I have had a chance to look into this some now. (I had a dead
line I had to meet first. Sorry about the delay) See comments below.

w_tom > wrote in message >...
> How to identify ineffective surge protection (power strip or
> UPS)? No dedicated and less than 10 foot connection to earth
> ground. And avoids all discussion about earthing. Two simple
> rules that identify ineffective protectors. The 'whys' had
> been posted elsewhere and are cited below. Key on these
> important descriptors: 'Less than 10 foot' and 'single point
> earth ground'.

OK I think I follow but I do have a question. Is the 10 – 15 foot
connection to earth ground simply for very low resistance to ground?
And what about this single point stuff. Why would it matter how many
points? I was thinking I read that it was actually the impedance that
was at issue. Since inductive reactance is a component of impedance
then it would appear that someone has a frequency that was used to
determine maximum impedance. Do you know of anyone that has discussed
this?

> A retail 'whole house' protector is sold in Home Depot -
> either Intermatic EG240RC or IG1240RC, or Siemens QSA2020.
> That is effective protector for less than $1 per protected
> appliance. A surge protector does not stop, block, filter, or
> absorb surges. An effective surge protector *shunts* -
> connects all wires to earth ground during the surge. Just
> like a switch that automatically closes during the surge. But
> that switch - that shunt - that connection is only as
> effective as single point earth ground. Details provided
> below:

Although I was unable to find any of the surge protectors listed above
on Home Depot's web site I was able to look them up on the
manufacturers web site so I know that they are real.

> Concepts were summarized in "Opinions on Surge Protectors?"
> on 7 Jul 2003 in the newsgroup alt.certification.a-plus or
> http://tinyurl.com/l3m9
>
> More details were provided in "Power Surge" on 29 Sept 2003
> in the newsgroup alt.comp.hardware or
> http://tinyurl.com/p1rk
>
> Earthing was discussed in two threads in the newsgroup
> misc.rural
> Storm and Lightning damage in the country 28 Jul 2002
> Lightning Nightmares!! 10 Aug 2002
> http://tinyurl.com/ghgv or http://tinyurl.com/ghgm

Although a couple of the above links had a lot of you saying this same
stuff I did find several other sources of information as well. Thank
you.

> The plug-in UPS is for one thing - provide temporary power
> when 120 VAC drops typically below 95 volts. Effective
> transient protector is something different, located elsewhere
> at the service entrance, where all utility wires enter the
> building, and connected to that essential single point earth
> ground.

Well I think I see why you say the part about the surge protectors.
A couple of questions. In one of the links above someone asked you if
a common mode surge was possible from the outside on the newer USA
houses where common and safety ground are tied together and earthed at
the inlet to the house. I couldn't find you saying one way or the
other. It looks like it isn't possible from the outside but after the
reading and thinking you have prompted it looks like it is still
possible from inside the house namely from a plug in surge protector.
I guess it could also be caused by an induced surge from lightening.
For anyone else reading and wondering about "common mode" surges you
can do a search and find lots available. Here is one link…
http://www.explan.co.uk/antisurge/modes.shtml

In my current house the earth ground run from the breaker box is 20-25
feet. If the only concern on the length is resistance then maybe a
second run (approximating a 10-15 foot run) would take care of it.
What do you think? Maybe the impedance question above will cover this
as well….

I found your first couple of posts rather abrasive but I must say that
I have found this to be quite educational.

[w_tom]

Industry professionals discuss low impedance earth ground
connections; not low resistance. This was also posted in those
other discussions meaning that the next four or eight
paragraphs could be bypassed since you read those previous
citations.

The electrician is concerned with low resistance wires
because he is concerned for human safety. IOW a 50 foot 20
amp wire would measure less than 0.2 ohms 'resistance'. But
transistor safety involves wire 'impedance'. That same 50
foot wire might be 130 ohms 'impedance' to a surge. We want a
surge to take least impedance path to earth. As that
impedance to earth increases (wire gets longer), then more of
a surge will seek other earth ground paths - typically inside
the house via household electronics.

Let's say a 100 amp transient seeks earth ground via 10 feet
of 4 AWG wire - from breaker box to earth ground rod. That
would be about 400 volts difference between breaker box and
earth. Now let's assume same 100 amp transient is shunted to
(receptacle) safety ground wire, adjacent to appliance, and
fifty feet from breaker box. Now that surge protector and
appliance is at something less than 13,000 volts compared to
breaker box and earth ground. Will that 100 amp transient
seek earth ground through a 13,000 volt wire? Of course not.
It will seek other paths to earth such as through a computer
modem, to earth ground on phone line.

That last example demonstrates why some suffer modem damage
and the ubiquitous "No Dialtone Detected" failure message.
With surge protector adjacent to computer, a surge found other
destructive paths to earth ground - because wire impedance on
that receptacle safety ground wire was too high - 130 ohms
impedance.

IOW we earth as short as possible to earth ground to
minimize wire impedance 'incoming utility wire to earth
ground'. 3 foot earth ground connection would be better.
Wire length, sharp wire bends, splices, wire inside metallic
pipe, etc all increase wire impedance. Wire to earth ground
must be short, no sharp bends, no splices, etc to earth ground
- for transistor safety - surge protection.


Above is why connection to earth ground must be short. Now
for another important characteristic of surge protection -
single point earthing. Lightning enters house having struck
highest wires on telephone pole - AC electric. House phone
lines and TV cable enter and are earthed on other side of
building. Therefore lighting enters on AC electric seeking
earth ground. It travels through computer modem to phone line
earth ground AND through TV to cable earth ground. Both
appliances are damaged because all incoming wires were not
earthed at same single point earth ground.

Even an underground wire must enter at service entrance as
demonstrated by this figure of two structures - each with a
central earth ground:

http://www.erico.com/erico_public/pdf/fep/TechNotes/Tncr002.pdf

Three figures from another industry professional show the
good and bad ways to earth a building. We still build new
homes that violate these principles:
http://www.cinergy.com/surge/ttip08.htm

Another provides a circuit example of bad, multi-point
earthing:
http://www.xantrex.com/support/docserve.asp?id=337

The sound byte: a surge protector is only as effective as
its earth ground. Many incoming wires (ie CATV, satellite
dish) don't even require a surge protector. But effective
protection always requires that single point earth ground.
Surge protectors are simple science. The art of protection is
earthing.

Frequency range of the transient?
http://www.stormwise.com/striking.htm
> Lightning Strikes create powerful radio waves in the frequency
> range of 3 KHz (audio, VLF) through 10 MHz (shortwave radio).
> ... The best region to listen for distant shortwave lightning
> signatures is from 2 MHz through 7 MHz.

Generally, a 1 to 2 Mhz range is considered where most
destructive energy is located.

We still build new homes as if the transistor did not
exist. Post 1990 NEC requirements do provide better earthing
with the additional requirement of a separate earth ground rod
near to breaker box. But that only earths the neutral - not
other AC electric wires (assuming no 'whole house'
protector). That earth ground wire may be longer than 10 feet
- since NEC requirements are only for human safety; not for
transistor safety. Many electricians put too many sharp bends
in that earth wire or bundle a ground wire with other wires.
Acceptable for human safety but bad for transistor safety.
For example, if ground wire can go through foundation to
ground rod, then that 4 AWG ground wire must pass through
foundation for 1) less sharp bends, 2) shorter distance, and
3) not bundled with other non-grounding wires.

Then a superior Ufer ground that really should be part of
new construction foundation footings. Best earth ground - and
we still build new homes without Ufer grounding. IOW we still
build new homes as if the transistor did not exist.

BTW, earthing to a water pipe is not an acceptable earth
ground since about 1990. Pipes are grounded only to *remove*
electricity from the pipe. Code now calls for a separate and
dedicated earth ground rod. That code change also makes surge
protection easier or more effective. But something like 1 out
of 5 older homes I visit don't even have any acceptable earth
ground connection that would meet 1950 requirements. The
lights still work, therefore every thing must be just fine?

If plug-in protectors were providing any kind of protection,
then they would demand the homeowner visually inspect that
earth ground. But neither plug-in power strips nor UPSes
claim to provide such protection. Why raise an issue
(earthing) that would only reduce sales? Neither claim to
provide effective surge protection - which I gather you are
beginning to appreciate. Why raise the earthing issue?

Read back those early posts. Nothing was abrasive. Facts
were simply posted blunt and technically honest. I don't
sugar coat anything. And I did not insult anyone. Just that
too much new information was posted bluntly. I don't worry
about sugar coating. If a person wants to learn, then he will
delve into facts - without a 'Madison Ave' type presentation.
But sound byte is posted. A surge protector is only as
effective as its earth ground.


Raymond wrote:
> OK w_tom I have had a chance to look into this some now. (I had a
> dead line I had to meet first. Sorry about the delay) See
> comments below.
>
> w_tom > wrote in message >...
>> How to identify ineffective surge protection (power strip or
>> UPS)? No dedicated and less than 10 foot connection to earth
>> ground. And avoids all discussion about earthing. Two simple
>> rules that identify ineffective protectors. The 'whys' had
>> been posted elsewhere and are cited below. Key on these
>> important descriptors: 'Less than 10 foot' and 'single point
>> earth ground'.
>
> OK I think I follow but I do have a question. Is the 10 – 15 foot
> connection to earth ground simply for very low resistance to ground?
> And what about this single point stuff. Why would it matter how many
> points? I was thinking I read that it was actually the impedance that
> was at issue. Since inductive reactance is a component of impedance
> then it would appear that someone has a frequency that was used to
> determine maximum impedance. Do you know of anyone that has discussed
> this?
>
>> A retail 'whole house' protector is sold in Home Depot -
>> either Intermatic EG240RC or IG1240RC, or Siemens QSA2020.
>> That is effective protector for less than $1 per protected
>> appliance. A surge protector does not stop, block, filter, or
>> absorb surges. An effective surge protector *shunts* -
>> connects all wires to earth ground during the surge. Just
>> like a switch that automatically closes during the surge. But
> that switch - that shunt - that connection is only as
>> effective as single point earth ground. Details provided
>> below:
>
> Although I was unable to find any of the surge protectors listed
> above on Home Depot's web site I was able to look them up on the
> manufacturers web site so I know that they are real.
>
>> Concepts were summarized in "Opinions on Surge Protectors?"
>> on 7 Jul 2003 in the newsgroup alt.certification.a-plus or
>> http://tinyurl.com/l3m9
>>
>> More details were provided in "Power Surge" on 29 Sept 2003
>> in the newsgroup alt.comp.hardware or
>> http://tinyurl.com/p1rk
>>
>> Earthing was discussed in two threads in the newsgroup
>> misc.rural
>> Storm and Lightning damage in the country 28 Jul 2002
>> Lightning Nightmares!! 10 Aug 2002
>> http://tinyurl.com/ghgv or http://tinyurl.com/ghgm
>
> Although a couple of the above links had a lot of you saying this
> same stuff I did find several other sources of information as
> well. Thank you.
>
>> The plug-in UPS is for one thing - provide temporary power
>> when 120 VAC drops typically below 95 volts. Effective
>> transient protector is something different, located elsewhere
>> at the service entrance, where all utility wires enter the
>> building, and connected to that essential single point earth
>> ground.
>
> Well I think I see why you say the part about the surge protectors.
> A couple of questions. In one of the links above someone asked you if
> a common mode surge was possible from the outside on the newer USA
> houses where common and safety ground are tied together and earthed at
> the inlet to the house. I couldn't find you saying one way or the
> other. It looks like it isn't possible from the outside but after the
> reading and thinking you have prompted it looks like it is still
> possible from inside the house namely from a plug in surge protector.
> I guess it could also be caused by an induced surge from lightening.
> For anyone else reading and wondering about "common mode" surges you
> can do a search and find lots available. Here is one link…
> http://www.explan.co.uk/antisurge/modes.shtml
>
> In my current house the earth ground run from the breaker box is 20-25
> feet. If the only concern on the length is resistance then maybe a
> second run (approximating a 10-15 foot run) would take care of it.
> What do you think? Maybe the impedance question above will cover this
> as well….
>
> I found your first couple of posts rather abrasive but I must say that
> I have found this to be quite educational.

[Raymond]

w_tom > wrote in message >...
> Industry professionals discuss low impedance earth ground
> connections; not low resistance. This was also posted in those
> other discussions meaning that the next four or eight
> paragraphs could be bypassed since you read those previous
> citations.

Yes I didn't find them any more helpful this time than the first.

> Above is why connection to earth ground must be short. Now
> for another important characteristic of surge protection -
> single point earthing. Lightning enters house having struck
> highest wires on telephone pole - AC electric. House phone
> lines and TV cable enter and are earthed on other side of
> building. Therefore lighting enters on AC electric seeking
> earth ground. It travels through computer modem to phone line
> earth ground AND through TV to cable earth ground. Both
> appliances are damaged because all incoming wires were not
> earthed at same single point earth ground.
>
> Even an underground wire must enter at service entrance as
> demonstrated by this figure of two structures - each with a
> central earth ground:
>
> http://www.erico.com/erico_public/pdf/fep/TechNotes/Tncr002.pdf
>
> Three figures from another industry professional show the
> good and bad ways to earth a building. We still build new
> homes that violate these principles:
> http://www.cinergy.com/surge/ttip08.htm
>
> Another provides a circuit example of bad, multi-point
> earthing:
> http://www.xantrex.com/support/docserve.asp?id=337
>
> The sound byte: a surge protector is only as effective as
> its earth ground. Many incoming wires (ie CATV, satellite
> dish) don't even require a surge protector. But effective
> protection always requires that single point earth ground.
> Surge protectors are simple science. The art of protection is
> earthing.

The only thing I missed was the definition of single point earth
ground. I had assumed anyone trying to provide a good ground would
connect multiple ground points together. This is referred to as
"bonding" in your links.

> Frequency range of the transient?
> http://www.stormwise.com/striking.htm
> > Lightning Strikes create powerful radio waves in the frequency
> > range of 3 KHz (audio, VLF) through 10 MHz (shortwave radio).
> > ... The best region to listen for distant shortwave lightning
> > signatures is from 2 MHz through 7 MHz.
>
> Generally, a 1 to 2 Mhz range is considered where most
> destructive energy is located.

This is the part I was interested in. This presumably is why so much
interest in impedance and not so much resistance. BTW I could find
nothing referencing frequencies involved with lightning strikes at the
link listed here. The only thing even close was here
http://www.stormwise.com/tonejack.htm and that is a signal generator.
No mention of lightning created frequencies.

> We still build new homes as if the transistor did not
> exist. Post 1990 NEC requirements do provide better earthing
> with the additional requirement of a separate earth ground rod
> near to breaker box. But that only earths the neutral - not
> other AC electric wires (assuming no 'whole house'
> protector). That earth ground wire may be longer than 10 feet
> - since NEC requirements are only for human safety; not for
> transistor safety. Many electricians put too many sharp bends
> in that earth wire or bundle a ground wire with other wires.
> Acceptable for human safety but bad for transistor safety.
> For example, if ground wire can go through foundation to
> ground rod, then that 4 AWG ground wire must pass through
> foundation for 1) less sharp bends, 2) shorter distance, and
> 3) not bundled with other non-grounding wires.

Common and ground are connected to the same bus in my breaker box.
This bus is then earth grounded via a 6 gauge wire that is about 20
feed long. The wire is run by itself an not with other wires. There
are no sharp bends anywhere. The house was built in 1997. There are no
other shorter paths to outside the basement. The breaker box is in the
basement in the center of the house. The only way I can see to get a
shorter path would be to drill a whole in the floor of the basement
and install a ground rod. This could shorten the distance to under six
feet.

> Read back those early posts. Nothing was abrasive. Facts
> were simply posted blunt and technically honest. I don't
> sugar coat anything. And I did not insult anyone. Just that
> too much new information was posted bluntly. I don't worry
> about sugar coating. If a person wants to learn, then he will
> delve into facts - without a 'Madison Ave' type presentation.
> But sound byte is posted. A surge protector is only as
> effective as its earth ground.

Well I disagree. Are you really going to stand by statements like:
> Something like 800 consecutive spikes would pass through a
> plug-in UPS before it even THOUGHT about responding.
Isn't any kind of surge suppression device going to respond the first
time or not at all? What was your point in making this statement? It
simply looks inflammatory to me....

[w_tom]

This post resent because it did not appear in my newsgroup.

Industry professionals discuss low impedance earth ground
connections; not low resistance. This was also posted in those
other discussions meaning that the next four or eight
paragraphs could be bypassed since you read those previous
citations.

The electrician is concerned with low resistance wires
because he is concerned for human safety. IOW a 50 foot 20
amp wire would measure less than 0.2 ohms 'resistance'. But
transistor safety involves wire 'impedance'. That same 50
foot wire might be 130 ohms 'impedance' to a surge. We want a
surge to take least impedance path to earth. As that
impedance to earth increases (wire gets longer), then more of
a surge will seek other earth ground paths - typically inside
the house via household electronics.

Let's say a 100 amp transient seeks earth ground via 10 feet
of 4 AWG wire - from breaker box to earth ground rod. That
would be about 400 volts difference between breaker box and
earth. Now let's assume same 100 amp transient is shunted to
(receptacle) safety ground wire, adjacent to appliance, and
fifty feet from breaker box. Now that surge protector and
appliance is at something less than 13,000 volts compared to
breaker box and earth ground. Will that 100 amp transient
seek earth ground through a 13,000 volt wire? Of course not.
It will seek other paths to earth such as through a computer
modem, to earth ground on phone line.

That last example demonstrates why some suffer modem damage
and the ubiquitous "No Dialtone Detected" failure message.
With surge protector adjacent to computer, a surge found other
destructive paths to earth ground - because wire impedance on
that receptacle safety ground wire was too high - 130 ohms
impedance.

IOW we earth as short as possible to earth ground to
minimize wire impedance 'incoming utility wire to earth
ground'. 3 foot earth ground connection would be better.
Wire length, sharp wire bends, splices, wire inside metallic
pipe, etc all increase wire impedance. Wire to earth ground
must be short, no sharp bends, no splices, etc to earth ground
- for transistor safety - surge protection.


Above is why connection to earth ground must be short. Now
for another important characteristic of surge protection -
single point earthing. Lightning enters house having struck
highest wires on telephone pole - AC electric. House phone
lines and TV cable enter and are earthed on other side of
building. Therefore lighting enters on AC electric seeking
earth ground. It travels through computer modem to phone line
earth ground AND through TV to cable earth ground. Both
appliances are damaged because all incoming wires were not
earthed at same single point earth ground.

Even an underground wire must enter at service entrance as
demonstrated by this figure of two structures - each with a
central earth ground:

http://www.erico.com/erico_public/pdf/fep/TechNotes/Tncr002.pdf

Three figures from another industry professional show the
good and bad ways to earth a building. We still build new
homes that violate these principles:
http://www.cinergy.com/surge/ttip08.htm

Another provides a circuit example of bad, multi-point
earthing:
http://www.xantrex.com/support/docserve.asp?id=337

The sound byte: a surge protector is only as effective as
its earth ground. Many incoming wires (ie CATV, satellite
dish) don't even require a surge protector. But effective
protection always requires that single point earth ground.
Surge protectors are simple science. The art of protection is
earthing.

Frequency range of the transient?
http://www.stormwise.com/striking.htm
> Lightning Strikes create powerful radio waves in the frequency
> range of 3 KHz (audio, VLF) through 10 MHz (shortwave radio).
> ... The best region to listen for distant shortwave lightning
> signatures is from 2 MHz through 7 MHz.

Generally, a 1 to 2 Mhz range is considered where most
destructive energy is located.

We still build new homes as if the transistor did not
exist. Post 1990 NEC requirements do provide better earthing
with the additional requirement of a separate earth ground rod
near to breaker box. But that only earths the neutral - not
other AC electric wires (assuming no 'whole house'
protector). That earth ground wire may be longer than 10 feet
- since NEC requirements are only for human safety; not for
transistor safety. Many electricians put too many sharp bends
in that earth wire or bundle a ground wire with other wires.
Acceptable for human safety but bad for transistor safety.
For example, if ground wire can go through foundation to
ground rod, then that 4 AWG ground wire must pass through
foundation for 1) less sharp bends, 2) shorter distance, and
3) not bundled with other non-grounding wires.

Then a superior Ufer ground that really should be part of
new construction foundation footings. Best earth ground - and
we still build new homes without Ufer grounding. IOW we still
build new homes as if the transistor did not exist.

BTW, earthing to a water pipe is not an acceptable earth
ground since about 1990. Pipes are grounded only to *remove*
electricity from the pipe. Code now calls for a separate and
dedicated earth ground rod. That code change also makes surge
protection easier or more effective. But something like 1 out
of 5 older homes I visit don't even have any acceptable earth
ground connection that would meet 1950 requirements. The
lights still work, therefore every thing must be just fine?

If plug-in protectors were providing any kind of protection,
then they would demand the homeowner visually inspect that
earth ground. But neither plug-in power strips nor UPSes
claim to provide such protection. Why raise an issue
(earthing) that would only reduce sales? Neither claim to
provide effective surge protection - which I gather you are
beginning to appreciate. Why raise the earthing issue?

Read back those early posts. Nothing was abrasive. Facts
were simply posted blunt and technically honest. I don't
sugar coat anything. And I did not insult anyone. Just that
too much new information was posted bluntly. I don't worry
about sugar coating. If a person wants to learn, then he will
delve into facts - without a 'Madison Ave' type presentation.
But sound byte is posted. A surge protector is only as
effective as its earth ground.


Raymond wrote:
> OK w_tom I have had a chance to look into this some now. (I had a
> dead line I had to meet first. Sorry about the delay) See
> comments below.
>
> w_tom > wrote in message
>...
>> How to identify ineffective surge protection (power strip or
>> UPS)? No dedicated and less than 10 foot connection to earth
>> ground. And avoids all discussion about earthing. Two simple
>> rules that identify ineffective protectors. The 'whys' had
>> been posted elsewhere and are cited below. Key on these
>> important descriptors: 'Less than 10 foot' and 'single point
>> earth ground'.
>
> OK I think I follow but I do have a question. Is the 10 – 15 foot
> connection to earth ground simply for very low resistance to ground?
> And what about this single point stuff. Why would it matter how many
> points? I was thinking I read that it was actually the impedance that
> was at issue. Since inductive reactance is a component of impedance
> then it would appear that someone has a frequency that was used to
> determine maximum impedance. Do you know of anyone that has discussed
> this?
>
>> A retail 'whole house' protector is sold in Home Depot -
>> either Intermatic EG240RC or IG1240RC, or Siemens QSA2020.
>> That is effective protector for less than $1 per protected
>> appliance. A surge protector does not stop, block, filter, or
>> absorb surges. An effective surge protector *shunts* -
>> connects all wires to earth ground during the surge. Just
>> like a switch that automatically closes during the surge. But
> that switch - that shunt - that connection is only as
>> effective as single point earth ground. Details provided
>> below:
>
> Although I was unable to find any of the surge protectors listed
> above on Home Depot's web site I was able to look them up on the
> manufacturers web site so I know that they are real.
>
>> Concepts were summarized in "Opinions on Surge Protectors?"
>> on 7 Jul 2003 in the newsgroup alt.certification.a-plus or
>> http://tinyurl.com/l3m9
>>
>> More details were provided in "Power Surge" on 29 Sept 2003
>> in the newsgroup alt.comp.hardware or
>> http://tinyurl.com/p1rk
>>
>> Earthing was discussed in two threads in the newsgroup
>> misc.rural
>> Storm and Lightning damage in the country 28 Jul 2002
>> Lightning Nightmares!! 10 Aug 2002
>> http://tinyurl.com/ghgv or http://tinyurl.com/ghgm
>
> Although a couple of the above links had a lot of you saying this
> same stuff I did find several other sources of information as
> well. Thank you.
>
>> The plug-in UPS is for one thing - provide temporary power
>> when 120 VAC drops typically below 95 volts. Effective
>> transient protector is something different, located elsewhere
>> at the service entrance, where all utility wires enter the
>> building, and connected to that essential single point earth
>> ground.
>
> Well I think I see why you say the part about the surge protectors.
> A couple of questions. In one of the links above someone asked you if
> a common mode surge was possible from the outside on the newer USA
> houses where common and safety ground are tied together and earthed at
> the inlet to the house. I couldn't find you saying one way or the
> other. It looks like it isn't possible from the outside but after the
> reading and thinking you have prompted it looks like it is still
> possible from inside the house namely from a plug in surge protector.
> I guess it could also be caused by an induced surge from lightening.
> For anyone else reading and wondering about "common mode" surges you
> can do a search and find lots available. Here is one link…
> http://www.explan.co.uk/antisurge/modes.shtml
>
> In my current house the earth ground run from the breaker box is 20-25
> feet. If the only concern on the length is resistance then maybe a
> second run (approximating a 10-15 foot run) would take care of it.
> What do you think? Maybe the impedance question above will cover this
> as well….
>
> I found your first couple of posts rather abrasive but I must say that
> I have found this to be quite educational.

connection to earth ground simply for very low resistance to
ground?
> And what about this single point stuff. Why would it matter how many
> points? I was thinking I read that it was actually the impedance that
> was at issue. Since inductive reactance is a component of impedance
> then it would appear that someone has a frequency that was used to
> determine maximum impedance. Do you know of anyone that has discussed
> this?
>
> > A retail 'whole house' protector is sold in Home Depot -
> > either Intermatic EG240RC or IG1240RC, or Siemens QSA2020.
> > That is effective protector for less than $1 per protected
> > appliance. A surge protector does not stop, block, filter, or
> > absorb surges. An effective surge protector *shunts* -
> > connects all wires to earth ground during the surge. Just
> > like a switch that automatically closes during the surge. But
> > that switch - that shunt - that connection is only as
> > effective as single point earth ground. Details provided
> > below:
>
> Although I was unable to find any of the surge protectors listed above
> on Home Depot's web site I was able to look them up on the
> manufacturers web site so I know that they are real.
>
> > Concepts were summarized in "Opinions on Surge Protectors?"
> > on 7 Jul 2003 in the newsgroup alt.certification.a-plus or
> > http://tinyurl.com/l3m9
> >
> > More details were provided in "Power Surge" on 29 Sept 2003
> > in the newsgroup alt.comp.hardware or
> > http://tinyurl.com/p1rk
> >
> > Earthing was discussed in two threads in the newsgroup
> > misc.rural
> > Storm and Lightning damage in the country 28 Jul 2002
> > Lightning Nightmares!! 10 Aug 2002
> > http://tinyurl.com/ghgv or http://tinyurl.com/ghgm
>
> Although a couple of the above links had a lot of you saying this same
> stuff I did find several other sources of information as well. Thank
> you.
>
> > The plug-in UPS is for one thing - provide temporary power
> > when 120 VAC drops typically below 95 volts. Effective
> > transient protector is something different, located elsewhere
> > at the service entrance, where all utility wires enter the
> > building, and connected to that essential single point earth
> > ground.
>
> Well I think I see why you say the part about the surge protectors.
> A couple of questions. In one of the links above someone asked you if
> a common mode surge was possible from the outside on the newer USA
> houses where common and safety ground are tied together and earthed at
> the inlet to the house. I couldn't find you saying one way or the
> other. It looks like it isn't possible from the outside but after the
> reading and thinking you have prompted it looks like it is still
> possible from inside the house namely from a plug in surge protector.
> I guess it could also be caused by an induced surge from lightening.
> For anyone else reading and wondering about "common mode" surges you
> can do a search and find lots available. Here is one link…
> http://www.explan.co.uk/antisurge/modes.shtml
>
> In my current house the earth ground run from the breaker box is 20-25
> feet. If the only concern on the length is resistance then maybe a
> second run (approximating a 10-15 foot run) would take care of it.
> What do you think? Maybe the impedance question above will cover this
> as well….
>
> I found your first couple of posts rather abrasive but I must say that
> I have found this to be quite educational.

[Raymond]

w_tom > wrote in message >...
> This post resent because it did not appear in my newsgroup.

Because of the above I am reposting my last response. Please forgive
the duplication....

w_tom > wrote in message >...
> Industry professionals discuss low impedance earth ground
> connections; not low resistance. This was also posted in those
> other discussions meaning that the next four or eight
> paragraphs could be bypassed since you read those previous
> citations.

Yes I didn't find them any more helpful this time than the first.

> Above is why connection to earth ground must be short. Now
> for another important characteristic of surge protection -
> single point earthing. Lightning enters house having struck
> highest wires on telephone pole - AC electric. House phone
> lines and TV cable enter and are earthed on other side of
> building. Therefore lighting enters on AC electric seeking
> earth ground. It travels through computer modem to phone line
> earth ground AND through TV to cable earth ground. Both
> appliances are damaged because all incoming wires were not
> earthed at same single point earth ground.
>
> Even an underground wire must enter at service entrance as
> demonstrated by this figure of two structures - each with a
> central earth ground:
>
> http://www.erico.com/erico_public/pdf/fep/TechNotes/Tncr002.pdf
>
> Three figures from another industry professional show the
> good and bad ways to earth a building. We still build new
> homes that violate these principles:
> http://www.cinergy.com/surge/ttip08.htm
>
> Another provides a circuit example of bad, multi-point
> earthing:
> http://www.xantrex.com/support/docserve.asp?id=337
>
> The sound byte: a surge protector is only as effective as
> its earth ground. Many incoming wires (ie CATV, satellite
> dish) don't even require a surge protector. But effective
> protection always requires that single point earth ground.
> Surge protectors are simple science. The art of protection is
> earthing.

The only thing I missed was the definition of single point earth
ground. I had assumed anyone trying to provide a good ground would
connect multiple ground points together. This is referred to as
"bonding" in your links.

> Frequency range of the transient?
> http://www.stormwise.com/striking.htm
> > Lightning Strikes create powerful radio waves in the frequency
> > range of 3 KHz (audio, VLF) through 10 MHz (shortwave radio).
> > ... The best region to listen for distant shortwave lightning
> > signatures is from 2 MHz through 7 MHz.
>
> Generally, a 1 to 2 Mhz range is considered where most
> destructive energy is located.

This is the part I was interested in. This presumably is why so much
interest in impedance and not so much resistance. BTW I could find
nothing referencing frequencies involved with lightning strikes at the
link listed here. The only thing even close was here:
http://www.stormwise.com/tonejack.htm and that is a signal generator.
No mention of lightning created frequencies.

> We still build new homes as if the transistor did not
> exist. Post 1990 NEC requirements do provide better earthing
> with the additional requirement of a separate earth ground rod
> near to breaker box. But that only earths the neutral - not
> other AC electric wires (assuming no 'whole house'
> protector). That earth ground wire may be longer than 10 feet
> - since NEC requirements are only for human safety; not for
> transistor safety. Many electricians put too many sharp bends
> in that earth wire or bundle a ground wire with other wires.
> Acceptable for human safety but bad for transistor safety.
> For example, if ground wire can go through foundation to
> ground rod, then that 4 AWG ground wire must pass through
> foundation for 1) less sharp bends, 2) shorter distance, and
> 3) not bundled with other non-grounding wires.

Common and ground are connected to the same bus in my breaker box.
This bus is then earth grounded via a 6 gauge wire that is about 20
feet long. The wire is run by itself and not with other wires. There
are no sharp bends anywhere. The house was built in 1997. There are no
other shorter paths to outside the basement. The breaker box is in the
basement in the center of the house. The only way I can see to get a
shorter path would be to drill a hole in the floor of the basement
and install a ground rod. This could shorten the distance to under six
feet.

> Read back those early posts. Nothing was abrasive. Facts
> were simply posted blunt and technically honest. I don't
> sugar coat anything. And I did not insult anyone. Just that
> too much new information was posted bluntly. I don't worry
> about sugar coating. If a person wants to learn, then he will
> delve into facts - without a 'Madison Ave' type presentation.
> But sound byte is posted. A surge protector is only as
> effective as its earth ground.

Well I disagree. Are you really going to stand by statements like:
> Something like 800 consecutive spikes would pass through a
> plug-in UPS before it even THOUGHT about responding.
Isn't any kind of surge suppression device going to respond the first
time or not at all? What was your point in making this statement? It
simply looks inflammatory to me....

[w_tom]

With the breaker box 'poorly' located near house center,
then an effective surge protector becomes more difficult.
Some might solve this problem by earthing at the electric
meter and installing a 'whole house' protector on that meter
box. But this solution has complications. One is that many
power utilities do not approve of earthing in the meter box
even though code permits it. Second, an electrician in
cooperation with the utility is required to remove, wire, and
reseal that meter box. Just gets too complex and expensive.

Another alternative would be to surround the building with a
halo ground. Again, so inexpensive if installed when the
structure was built. Probably both difficult and expensive
now.

One reason why breaker boxes are located near meter is that
long service (drop) wire from meter to breaker box. That long
wire is essentially unfused - makes safety code writers
uneasy. That long wire must be encased in conduit due to
safety reasons. Sometimes a master cutoff breaker is located
closer to the meter and entrance. What you have is not
considered a code violation; but is not a desirable
installation. Even that earthing wire at 20 feet (I think) is
maximum permitted distance.

Let's say an earth ground rod is driven below breaker box,
through concrete floor, into earth. This then becomes a
single point earth ground for surge protection. All other
utilities, such as the telephone company provided surge
protector, must make a less than 10 foot connection to that
earth ground. Not possible since the telco provided surge
protector is in the NID that must be outside, within 1 foot of
where your phone wire exits the building to connect to telco
NID.

You could route a phone line over to that breaker box area,
install a phone line 'whole house' protector within ten feet
of that basement floor ground rod, then route all interior
phone lines to that center location. Same for CATV. But
again, it becomes too complex. If not careful, it could also
create ground loops that would compromise the protection
system. IOW there is no clean solution from what you have
described. Maybe just better to stick with the 20 foot
connection to earth ground, connect telco and cable to that
exterior earth ground rod, maybe expand that earth ground rod
to a system of rods (to make the earth ground more effective),
and be happy with that.

I would just install a 'whole house' protector on breaker
box, verify that all other incoming utilities connect to the
exterior earth ground rod, expand that ground rod earthing
system if surges are a local problem, and hope for the best.
That alone would create a major protection improvement for
quite little money.

If not previously posted: surge protector is but simple
science. Earthing is the art of surge protection. To
appreciate 'single point earth ground' concepts, review two
discussions mostly centered on earthing a residence in the
newsgroup misc.rural:
Storm and Lightning damage in the country 28 Jul 2002
Lightning Nightmares!! 10 Aug 2002
http://tinyurl.com/ghgv or http://tinyurl.com/ghgm

Significance of previously cited earthing diagrams from
http://www.cinergy.com/surge/ttip08.htm and

http://www.erico.com/erico_public/pdf/fep/TechNotes/Tncr002.pdf
may make more sense after reading those misc.rural
discussions.


Posted previously was a numerical comparison that somehow is
mistaken for abrasive:
> Something like 800 consecutive spikes would pass through a
> plug-in UPS before it even THOUGHT about responding. It is
> just another little fact that plug-in UPSes forget to
> mention.

800 is incorrect. It should have been 300 or 400. Plug-in
UPSes take that long to disconnect to battery. IOW
ineffective protection as manufacturer numbers and
specifications admit - once missing data is included. It may
be shocking to learn; but not abrasive or inflammatory. A
plug-in UPS typically requires tens of milliseconds to
disconnect from AC - the source of spikes. That would be
enough time for well over 300 consecutive surges to pass
through UPS into control electronics and pumps.

That was the point. Just too many reasons why a plug-in UPS
is not a spike protector. 300+ consecutive spikes was a first
and most obvious reason why. But most important is central
earth ground - the real surge protection - for protecting far
more than just an aquarium system. Understand why the system
works. But at minimum, install a 'whole house' protector on
breaker box and inspect all other utility earthing connections
(especially CATV which are notoriously installed improperly).

Raymond wrote:
> w_tom > wrote in message >...
>> This post resent because it did not appear in my newsgroup.
> Because of the above I am reposting my last response. Please forgive
> the duplication....
>
> w_tom > wrote in message >...
>> Industry professionals discuss low impedance earth ground
>> connections; not low resistance. This was also posted in those
>> other discussions meaning that the next four or eight
>> paragraphs could be bypassed since you read those previous
>> citations.
>
> Yes I didn't find them any more helpful this time than the first.
>
>> Above is why connection to earth ground must be short. Now
>> for another important characteristic of surge protection -
>> single point earthing. Lightning enters house having struck
>> highest wires on telephone pole - AC electric. House phone
>> lines and TV cable enter and are earthed on other side of
>> building. Therefore lighting enters on AC electric seeking
>> earth ground. It travels through computer modem to phone line
>> earth ground AND through TV to cable earth ground. Both
>> appliances are damaged because all incoming wires were not
>> earthed at same single point earth ground.
>>
>> Even an underground wire must enter at service entrance as
>> demonstrated by this figure of two structures - each with a
>> central earth ground:
>>
>> http://www.erico.com/erico_public/pdf/fep/TechNotes/Tncr002.pdf
>>
>> Three figures from another industry professional show the
>> good and bad ways to earth a building. We still build new
>> homes that violate these principles:
>> http://www.cinergy.com/surge/ttip08.htm
>>
>> Another provides a circuit example of bad, multi-point
>> earthing:
>> http://www.xantrex.com/support/docserve.asp?id=337
>>
>> The sound byte: a surge protector is only as effective as
>> its earth ground. Many incoming wires (ie CATV, satellite
>> dish) don't even require a surge protector. But effective
>> protection always requires that single point earth ground.
>> Surge protectors are simple science. The art of protection is
>> earthing.
>
> The only thing I missed was the definition of single point earth
> ground. I had assumed anyone trying to provide a good ground would
> connect multiple ground points together. This is referred to as
> "bonding" in your links.
>
>> Frequency range of the transient?
>> http://www.stormwise.com/striking.htm
>>> Lightning Strikes create powerful radio waves in the frequency
>>> range of 3 KHz (audio, VLF) through 10 MHz (shortwave radio).
>>> ... The best region to listen for distant shortwave lightning
>>> signatures is from 2 MHz through 7 MHz.
>>
>> Generally, a 1 to 2 Mhz range is considered where most
>> destructive energy is located.
>
> This is the part I was interested in. This presumably is why so
> much interest in impedance and not so much resistance. BTW I
> could find nothing referencing frequencies involved with lightning
> strikes at the link listed here. The only thing even close was
> here: http://www.stormwise.com/tonejack.htm and that is a signal
> generator. No mention of lightning created frequencies.
>
>> We still build new homes as if the transistor did not
>> exist. Post 1990 NEC requirements do provide better earthing
>> with the additional requirement of a separate earth ground rod
>> near to breaker box. But that only earths the neutral - not
>> other AC electric wires (assuming no 'whole house'
>> protector). That earth ground wire may be longer than 10 feet
>> - since NEC requirements are only for human safety; not for
>> transistor safety. Many electricians put too many sharp bends
>> in that earth wire or bundle a ground wire with other wires.
>> Acceptable for human safety but bad for transistor safety.
>> For example, if ground wire can go through foundation to
>> ground rod, then that 4 AWG ground wire must pass through
>> foundation for 1) less sharp bends, 2) shorter distance, and
>> 3) not bundled with other non-grounding wires.
>
> Common and ground are connected to the same bus in my breaker
> box. This bus is then earth grounded via a 6 gauge wire that is
> about 20 feet long. The wire is run by itself and not with other
> wires. There are no sharp bends anywhere. The house was built in
> 1997. There are no other shorter paths to outside the basement.
> The breaker box is in the basement in the center of the house.
> The only way I can see to get a shorter path would be to drill a
> hole in the floor of the basement and install a ground rod. This
> could shorten the distance to under six feet.
>
>> Read back those early posts. Nothing was abrasive. Facts
>> were simply posted blunt and technically honest. I don't
>> sugar coat anything. And I did not insult anyone. Just that
>> too much new information was posted bluntly. I don't worry
>> about sugar coating. If a person wants to learn, then he will
>> delve into facts - without a 'Madison Ave' type presentation.
>> But sound byte is posted. A surge protector is only as
>> effective as its earth ground.
>
> Well I disagree. Are you really going to stand by statements like:
>> Something like 800 consecutive spikes would pass through a
>> plug-in UPS before it even THOUGHT about responding.
> Isn't any kind of surge suppression device going to respond the
> first time or not at all? What was your point in making this
> statement? It simply looks inflammatory to me....

[Raymond]

w_tom > wrote in message
> Posted previously was a numerical comparison that somehow is
> mistaken for abrasive:
> > Something like 800 consecutive spikes would pass through a
> > plug-in UPS before it even THOUGHT about responding. It is
> > just another little fact that plug-in UPSes forget to
> > mention.
>
> 800 is incorrect. It should have been 300 or 400. Plug-in
> UPSes take that long to disconnect to battery. IOW
> ineffective protection as manufacturer numbers and
> specifications admit - once missing data is included. It may
> be shocking to learn; but not abrasive or inflammatory. A
> plug-in UPS typically requires tens of milliseconds to
> disconnect from AC - the source of spikes. That would be
> enough time for well over 300 consecutive surges to pass
> through UPS into control electronics and pumps.
>
> That was the point. Just too many reasons why a plug-in UPS
> is not a spike protector. 300+ consecutive spikes was a first
> and most obvious reason why. But most important is central
> earth ground - the real surge protection - for protecting far
> more than just an aquarium system. Understand why the system
> works. But at minimum, install a 'whole house' protector on
> breaker box and inspect all other utility earthing connections
> (especially CATV which are notoriously installed improperly).

I'm sold on the whole house protector. The facts support it.

The consecutive spikes and plug-in UPSs is still wrong AFAIK. How do
you arrive at a 300-400 count? The little plug-in UPSs that I have
looked at don't have over voltage protection other than surge
suppression and/or minimal line conditioning. This means they will
never switch to battery on surges or even sustained over voltage
conditions. The better ones that do have over voltage protection
switch to battery but it is based on a RMS line voltage level. It
won't switch to battery based on surges until the RMS value of the
line voltage exceeds the manufacturers over voltage limit. In order
for this to happen it will take a lot of smaller surges in a very
short time frame or long duration surges or very high surges to make
it switch over. My understanding of the typical surges the average
household is subjected too tells me that even the better UPSs aren't
going to switch to battery on surges with the exception of the large
lightning induced surges. In all cases, as you have been pointing out,
it's not the UPS that should be protecting you from the surges anyway.
It should be a whole house suppression device with proper earth
grounding....

Your post referencing ANY count is either misleading or wrong
depending on the UPS in question. If your point was the switching time
of UPSs then you should have just stated that instead of going off in
the spike count thing....
The surge count post and really every post you have made in this
thread is inflammatory in regard to UPSs. Your presentation has been
that they are all worthless and anyone using them is stupid or
ignorant or something. I must admit that the surge suppression part
took me by surprise but the value of brown/black out protection from
UPSs is still quite valid. Because of the "tone" that you had in your
postings, I nearly just blew you off and skipped on. I'm glad that I
didn't.

[w_tom]

Many claim a plug-in UPS protects by powering electronics
directly from a battery. However they don't work that way.
To isolate the electronics from that spike requires a relay
trip. That relay response time is typically 10+ milliseconds;
or 300+ consecutive surges.

Yes, even if that relay would trip fast enough to isolate
electronics from a transient, UPS still would not be effective
for other reasons.

Also correct is that a relay would not trip due to a
surge. But if that relay does not trip, then what stops a
common mode transient? Myths of battery protecting
electronics ignores this UPS design limitation.

The 300+ statement simply summarizes to demonstrate the
numerical point - that a plug-in UPS does not and could not
protect from that destructive transient. Ineffective
protection for that simple timing reason and a long list of
other reasons. When confronting myths of plug-in UPSes as
surge protectors, then "300+ consecutive surges" quickly
demonstrates the facility of that UPS myth in one sentence.
Its not intended to be abrasive. It intentionally confronts
those UPS myths directly and in one sentence.

Good luck with what appears to be your latest household
project.

Raymond wrote:
> I'm sold on the whole house protector. The facts support it.
>
> The consecutive spikes and plug-in UPSs is still wrong AFAIK. How do
> you arrive at a 300-400 count? The little plug-in UPSs that I have
> looked at don't have over voltage protection other than surge
> suppression and/or minimal line conditioning. This means they will
> never switch to battery on surges or even sustained over voltage
> conditions. The better ones that do have over voltage protection
> switch to battery but it is based on a RMS line voltage level. It
> won't switch to battery based on surges until the RMS value of the
> line voltage exceeds the manufacturers over voltage limit. In order
> for this to happen it will take a lot of smaller surges in a very
> short time frame or long duration surges or very high surges to make
> it switch over. My understanding of the typical surges the average
> household is subjected too tells me that even the better UPSs aren't
> going to switch to battery on surges with the exception of the large
> lightning induced surges. In all cases, as you have been pointing out,
> it's not the UPS that should be protecting you from the surges anyway.
> It should be a whole house suppression device with proper earth
> grounding....
>
> Your post referencing ANY count is either misleading or wrong
> depending on the UPS in question. If your point was the switching time
> of UPSs then you should have just stated that instead of going off in
> the spike count thing....
> The surge count post and really every post you have made in this
> thread is inflammatory in regard to UPSs. Your presentation has been
> that they are all worthless and anyone using them is stupid or
> ignorant or something. I must admit that the surge suppression part
> took me by surprise but the value of brown/black out protection from
> UPSs is still quite valid. Because of the "tone" that you had in your
> postings, I nearly just blew you off and skipped on. I'm glad that I
> didn't.