Seachem's NPK products, Australian planted aquarium and Correct Ratio's

[Justin]

Hi all,

I just want to check if I have understood something correctly, it's just
that I have started dosing NPK and I am putting a lot more in than I thought
I would be, well that is a lot more than Seachem recommend...

I am working off (what I think is Tom Barr's ratio) of 15:1:20 and I through
that a level of 15mg/l for Nitrate was too high, so I am keeping my tank at
levels of 7.5:.5:10 being mg/l... I don't know if this is correct to start
with (i just divided everything by 2)

Seachem recommend putting in roughly about 30ml of Potassium a week whereas
I am putting in 40-60mls and most websites I read say Nitrate and Phosphate
should be zero, but I cannot get my Nitrate to drop to zero, it is
constantly at 5mg/l (and i'm bumping it up to 7.5 for the ratio's) But my
Phosphate drops to zero every week...

I am getting great growth and everything was going well until tonight after
my water change I did all my tests and Nitrate was 20mg/l whereas I have
been following the above fertilzation regime that I have been doing for 6
weeks now... When I last tested Nitrate, it was 5mg/l so I added enough
Seachem Nitrogen to bring it up to 7.5 as I have been doing for weeks, but
somehow it has just quite alarmingly... The only thing I can contribute it
to is my Red Tiger Lilly (or is it Lotus...?) has lost two leaves this week
and I have been letting them just rot in the water as I was advised never to
cut their leaves if you want them to flower...

Can anyone tell me if i'm on the right track or if i'm way off?

thank you.

Tank Spec's.
MH lighting
Pressurized CO2
KH3
PH6.8
200litre (approx 40gal)

Justin

[Elaine T]

Justin wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I just want to check if I have understood something correctly, it's just
> that I have started dosing NPK and I am putting a lot more in than I
> thought I would be, well that is a lot more than Seachem recommend...
>
> I am working off (what I think is Tom Barr's ratio) of 15:1:20 and I
> through that a level of 15mg/l for Nitrate was too high, so I am keeping
> my tank at levels of 7.5:.5:10 being mg/l... I don't know if this is
> correct to start with (i just divided everything by 2)
>
> Seachem recommend putting in roughly about 30ml of Potassium a week
> whereas I am putting in 40-60mls and most websites I read say Nitrate
> and Phosphate should be zero, but I cannot get my Nitrate to drop to
> zero, it is constantly at 5mg/l (and i'm bumping it up to 7.5 for the
> ratio's) But my Phosphate drops to zero every week...
>
> I am getting great growth and everything was going well until tonight
> after my water change I did all my tests and Nitrate was 20mg/l whereas
> I have been following the above fertilzation regime that I have been
> doing for 6 weeks now... When I last tested Nitrate, it was 5mg/l so I
> added enough Seachem Nitrogen to bring it up to 7.5 as I have been doing
> for weeks, but somehow it has just quite alarmingly... The only thing I
> can contribute it to is my Red Tiger Lilly (or is it Lotus...?) has lost
> two leaves this week and I have been letting them just rot in the water
> as I was advised never to cut their leaves if you want them to flower...
>
> Can anyone tell me if i'm on the right track or if i'm way off?
>
> thank you.
>
> Tank Spec's.
> MH lighting
> Pressurized CO2
> KH3
> PH6.8
> 200litre (approx 40gal)
>
> Justin
>
>
>
MH lighting over a 40 gal?!? Cool! No wonder your tank sucks down
ferts. Seachem probably calculated for a more typical 2-3 wpg. I
wonder about the accuracy of your nitrate test kit reading since things
have been stable for a bit. Did you try to retest? Also test your tap
water and see if there was a nitrate spike.

I grow full-sized Nymphaea lilies in my pond, and I cut off the old
leaves. They flower fine. I don't know specifically about red tiger
lilies, but I've never grown any flowering plant in either my pond or
garden that missed it's dead leaves.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[gf225]

Personally I stick to Tom Barr's ratio as best I can. I've been algae
free for over 12 months now so something must be right.

Statements that zero PO4 and NO3 are good are plain rubbish. A good
idea perhaps for beginners with low plant bio-mass and nutrient uptake
but for anyone with more that a little growth then it's asking for
trouble. Before I became aware of dosing N, P and K I ran very low NO3
and zero PO4 (using RowaPhos) because I beleived as commonly stated -
that zero NO3 and PO4 are good. The end result was a massive
infestation of BGA and all sorts of other algae.

Thankfully I have seen the "light" and dose KNO3 and KH2PO4. NO3 -
15ppm and PO4 - 1ppm. I've just looked into dosing K seperately (see
my first post).

Just my two pence worth.


--
gf225

[Justin]

Thanks for the responses!

I am thinking of making up some PMDD... As per www.thekrib.com, however I
am a bit nervous as my tank is going so well at the moment using seachem NPK
products and dupla for my micronutrients... I was always taught, "if it's
not broken don't fix it", but there is only one place in Australia that
sells the seachem products and they are out of Seachem K at the moment and
it's working out a bit expensive... I am dosing 40ml a week, sometimes
more, so the 250ml seachem bottle is only lasting around 6 doses then I have
to buy some more... Expensive journey... Whereas if I do use Muriate of
potash, it's about AU$6.00 for approx 2kg which should last a couple of
years, I'm just worried about the chlorine in it...

Also, sourcing KH2PO4 and KNO3 is proving difficult in australia... I went
to a chemist last night and got excited when the had the Fleet product, but
it was lemon ginger flavour... Don't think the fish would like that too
much... Will keep on looking...

Any Aussies out there able to tell me when I can get KH2PO4 and KNO3 in
Australia??

If anyone is interested, I found these sites a great help...

http://rexgrigg.com/dosing.htm

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/archive/index.php/f-11.html


Thanks.

Justin.

"gf225" > wrote in message
...
>
> Personally I stick to Tom Barr's ratio as best I can. I've been algae
> free for over 12 months now so something must be right.
>
> Statements that zero PO4 and NO3 are good are plain rubbish. A good
> idea perhaps for beginners with low plant bio-mass and nutrient uptake
> but for anyone with more that a little growth then it's asking for
> trouble. Before I became aware of dosing N, P and K I ran very low NO3
> and zero PO4 (using RowaPhos) because I beleived as commonly stated -
> that zero NO3 and PO4 are good. The end result was a massive
> infestation of BGA and all sorts of other algae.
>
> Thankfully I have seen the "light" and dose KNO3 and KH2PO4. NO3 -
> 15ppm and PO4 - 1ppm. I've just looked into dosing K seperately (see
> my first post).
>
> Just my two pence worth.
>
>
> --
> gf225

[blank]

Justin wrote:

> Any Aussies out there able to tell me when I can get KH2PO4 and KNO3
> in Australia??
>
A hydroponics shop, or the hydroponics section of some large retail
nurseries.

[Rocco Moretti]

Justin wrote:
> Thanks for the responses!
>
> Whereas if I do use Muriate of potash, it's about AU$6.00
> for approx 2kg which should last a couple of years, I'm just worried
> about the chlorine in it...

As mentioned elsewhere, it's chloriDe not chloriNe - it's about as inert
an ion as one can get - "Mutiate of potash" is Potassium chloride, the
potassium equivalent of table salt.

The only concern is eventual accumulation of chloride salts in the tank,
but you'll be dosing at so low a level that it shouldn't be a concern if
you have any sort of water change regime at all.

> Also, sourcing KH2PO4 and KNO3 is proving difficult in australia...

Don't know about the phosphate, but the KNO3 is also sometimes sold as
stump remover. Don't know about the legality of it in Oz - it might
potentially be regulated as bomb making material.

> I
> went to a chemist last night and got excited when the had the Fleet
> product, but it was lemon ginger flavour... Don't think the fish would
> like that too much... Will keep on looking...

Hmm ... I'm only familar with Fleet Enema - I'm unsure why one would
want lemon ginger flavouring in an enema. :)

[Dogma Discharge]

"Rocco Moretti" > wrote in message news:dc5e6g$3n9
>
> Hmm ... I'm only familar with Fleet Enema - I'm unsure why one would
> want lemon ginger flavouring in an enema. :)

ROFLMAO
--
Kind Regards
Cameron

[Justin]

Found a supplier of KH2PO4, KNO3 and K2SO4 in Australia!! It's in 25kg
bags... But it's around $48.00 each bag so a lifetimes supply of each one
for the cost of approx 3 bottles of seachem...

I am going to get it in about a week. Maybe sell some excess to any
aussie's that need it if they are interested...

Thanks all for your help!!!

Justin.

"Rocco Moretti" > wrote in message
...
> Justin wrote:
>> Thanks for the responses!
>>
>> Whereas if I do use Muriate of potash, it's about AU$6.00 for approx
>> 2kg which should last a couple of years, I'm just worried about the
>> chlorine in it...
>
> As mentioned elsewhere, it's chloriDe not chloriNe - it's about as inert
> an ion as one can get - "Mutiate of potash" is Potassium chloride, the
> potassium equivalent of table salt.
>
> The only concern is eventual accumulation of chloride salts in the tank,
> but you'll be dosing at so low a level that it shouldn't be a concern if
> you have any sort of water change regime at all.
>
>> Also, sourcing KH2PO4 and KNO3 is proving difficult in australia...
>
> Don't know about the phosphate, but the KNO3 is also sometimes sold as
> stump remover. Don't know about the legality of it in Oz - it might
> potentially be regulated as bomb making material.
>
>> I went to a chemist last night and got excited when the had the Fleet
>> product, but it was lemon ginger flavour... Don't think the fish would
>> like that too much... Will keep on looking...
>
> Hmm ... I'm only familar with Fleet Enema - I'm unsure why one would want
> lemon ginger flavouring in an enema. :)

[Justin]

Rocco, Fleet also have mouthwashes as per the posting on the website
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/archive/index.php/f-11.html which also
mentioned flavoured ones... Thus the Lemon-ginger flavour...

I think it's only the US and Canada that have laws on importing KNO3 but i
could be wrong... But sending within Australia is fine anyways...

I think I will buy pure K2SO4, just to be on the safe side... Skip the
Muriate of Potash...






"Rocco Moretti" > wrote in message
...
> Justin wrote:
>> Thanks for the responses!
>>
>> Whereas if I do use Muriate of potash, it's about AU$6.00 for approx
>> 2kg which should last a couple of years, I'm just worried about the
>> chlorine in it...
>
> As mentioned elsewhere, it's chloriDe not chloriNe - it's about as inert
> an ion as one can get - "Mutiate of potash" is Potassium chloride, the
> potassium equivalent of table salt.
>
> The only concern is eventual accumulation of chloride salts in the tank,
> but you'll be dosing at so low a level that it shouldn't be a concern if
> you have any sort of water change regime at all.
>
>> Also, sourcing KH2PO4 and KNO3 is proving difficult in australia...
>
> Don't know about the phosphate, but the KNO3 is also sometimes sold as
> stump remover. Don't know about the legality of it in Oz - it might
> potentially be regulated as bomb making material.
>
>> I went to a chemist last night and got excited when the had the Fleet
>> product, but it was lemon ginger flavour... Don't think the fish would
>> like that too much... Will keep on looking...
>
> Hmm ... I'm only familar with Fleet Enema - I'm unsure why one would want
> lemon ginger flavouring in an enema. :)

[Justin]

Rocco,

Here is where I sourced the Chlorine from...
http://www.nutri-tech.com.au/hints.htm#NO3
The article is as follows....

Dump Muriate of Potash:

Muriate contains 50% microbe-killing chlorine. Sulfate of Potash may be more
expensive, but most Queensland soils are sulfur deficient, and this benefit
should be factored into the cost difference. It is always difficult to
quantify microbe damage, because the organisms are not visible, but there is
ample, visible evidence when we consider earthworms: NTS have collected
several reports of reduced earthworm numbers following prolonged use of
Muriate. Leading American consultants cite cases where this phenomenon is
reversed. Earthworms tend to return following a switch from muriate of
Potash to Sulfate of potash.

Just though I would mention it as chlorine is not that good in aquaria, but
maybe it's different here in Australia...

Thanks justin.


"Rocco Moretti" > wrote in message
...
> Justin wrote:
>> Thanks for the responses!
>>
>> Whereas if I do use Muriate of potash, it's about AU$6.00 for approx
>> 2kg which should last a couple of years, I'm just worried about the
>> chlorine in it...
>
> As mentioned elsewhere, it's chloriDe not chloriNe - it's about as inert
> an ion as one can get - "Mutiate of potash" is Potassium chloride, the
> potassium equivalent of table salt.
>
> The only concern is eventual accumulation of chloride salts in the tank,
> but you'll be dosing at so low a level that it shouldn't be a concern if
> you have any sort of water change regime at all.
>
>> Also, sourcing KH2PO4 and KNO3 is proving difficult in australia...
>
> Don't know about the phosphate, but the KNO3 is also sometimes sold as
> stump remover. Don't know about the legality of it in Oz - it might
> potentially be regulated as bomb making material.
>
>> I went to a chemist last night and got excited when the had the Fleet
>> product, but it was lemon ginger flavour... Don't think the fish would
>> like that too much... Will keep on looking...
>
> Hmm ... I'm only familar with Fleet Enema - I'm unsure why one would want
> lemon ginger flavouring in an enema. :)

[Rocco Moretti]

Justin wrote:
> Rocco,
>
> Here is where I sourced the Chlorine from...
> http://www.nutri-tech.com.au/hints.htm#NO3
> The article is as follows....
>
> Dump Muriate of Potash:
>
> Muriate contains 50% microbe-killing chlorine. Sulfate of Potash may be
> more expensive, but most Queensland soils are sulfur deficient, and this
> benefit should be factored into the cost difference.

I wouldn't put much weight into what "Nutri-Tech" says (especially after
reading about the other products they have for sale)- it likely arises
from a fundamental misunderstanding of chemistry.

We label atoms based on what's going on in the nucleus (# of protons) -
but the nucleus is always surrounded by electrons. Unless you're a
nuclear physicist, it's primarily the number & layout of electrons which
determine how a given substance acts. Chlorine has 17 electrons, and due
to the way the electrons are arranged, it *really* wants one more, so it
will grab electrons from practically anything it can. Chloride (from
"muriate of potash") has 18 electrons - it's happy. In fact, since
reactivity is governed by electrons and not the nucleus, it's more like
the tremendously inert Argon than it is like chlorine.

Chloride (as opposed to chlorine) is also not particularly microbe
killing. In fact, biologists *routinely* add chloride (as NaCl -
"muriate of sodium") to bacteria cultures in quite high amounts (10g/L)
- far from being inhibitory, the NaCl is required for good growth.

That said, sulfur is also necessary for life, so adding K2SO4 adds two
nutrients instead of just the one. A big plus if your soil/tank is
sulfur poor.

> Just though I would mention it as chlorine is not that good in aquaria,
> but maybe it's different here in Australia...

I don't think chemistry changes that radically as one crosses the
equator. ;)

[Justin]

sorry

"Rocco Moretti" > wrote in message
...
> Justin wrote:
>> Rocco,
>>
>> Here is where I sourced the Chlorine from...
>> http://www.nutri-tech.com.au/hints.htm#NO3
>> The article is as follows....
>>
>> Dump Muriate of Potash:
>>
>> Muriate contains 50% microbe-killing chlorine. Sulfate of Potash may be
>> more expensive, but most Queensland soils are sulfur deficient, and this
>> benefit should be factored into the cost difference.
>
> I wouldn't put much weight into what "Nutri-Tech" says (especially after
> reading about the other products they have for sale)- it likely arises
> from a fundamental misunderstanding of chemistry.
>
> We label atoms based on what's going on in the nucleus (# of protons) -
> but the nucleus is always surrounded by electrons. Unless you're a nuclear
> physicist, it's primarily the number & layout of electrons which determine
> how a given substance acts. Chlorine has 17 electrons, and due to the way
> the electrons are arranged, it *really* wants one more, so it will grab
> electrons from practically anything it can. Chloride (from "muriate of
> potash") has 18 electrons - it's happy. In fact, since reactivity is
> governed by electrons and not the nucleus, it's more like the tremendously
> inert Argon than it is like chlorine.
>
> Chloride (as opposed to chlorine) is also not particularly microbe
> killing. In fact, biologists *routinely* add chloride (as NaCl - "muriate
> of sodium") to bacteria cultures in quite high amounts (10g/L) - far from
> being inhibitory, the NaCl is required for good growth.
>
> That said, sulfur is also necessary for life, so adding K2SO4 adds two
> nutrients instead of just the one. A big plus if your soil/tank is sulfur
> poor.
>
> > Just though I would mention it as chlorine is not that good in aquaria,
> > but maybe it's different here in Australia...
>
> I don't think chemistry changes that radically as one crosses the equator.
> ;)

[Rocco Moretti]

> "Rocco Moretti" > wrote
>
>> Justin wrote:
>>
>>> Rocco,
>>>
>>> Here is where I sourced the Chlorine from...
>>> http://www.nutri-tech.com.au/hints.htm#NO3
>>
>> I wouldn't put much weight into what "Nutri-Tech" says (especially
>> after reading about the other products they have for sale)- it likely
>> arises from a fundamental misunderstanding of chemistry.

Justin wrote:
> sorry

Don't be sorry. Chemical literacy and precision are exceptions rather
than the rule now-a-days. It's all to easy to hear something that's
not-quite-right from someone, and think that they know what they're
talking about. That's why you get horrible advice from the LFSs - it's
people repeating stuff they heard from someone who seemed like a
knowledgeable authority at the time. Usenet suffers from the same
problem. (I've done my fair share of disseminating B.S.) The only
difference is that there is enough people reading Usenet that people get
corrected on misinformation rather effectively.

We're all here to learn. (You can take that in a more general
metaphysical sense as well, if you want to.)

[Justin]

Thanks for that Rocco. :-)

One more question then if i could... You say that Muriate of Potash is safe
which I may buy as it comes in 2kg bags as opposed to 25kg bags... What
about Sulfate of Potash, would that be better as it's formula is K2SO4,
which is exactly as it should be... Is that right?

Thanks.

Justin
"Rocco Moretti" > wrote in message
...
>> "Rocco Moretti" > wrote
>>> Justin wrote:
>>>
>>>> Rocco,
>>>>
>>>> Here is where I sourced the Chlorine from...
>>>> http://www.nutri-tech.com.au/hints.htm#NO3
>>>
>>> I wouldn't put much weight into what "Nutri-Tech" says (especially after
>>> reading about the other products they have for sale)- it likely arises
>>> from a fundamental misunderstanding of chemistry.
>
> Justin wrote:
> > sorry
>
> Don't be sorry. Chemical literacy and precision are exceptions rather than
> the rule now-a-days. It's all to easy to hear something that's
> not-quite-right from someone, and think that they know what they're
> talking about. That's why you get horrible advice from the LFSs - it's
> people repeating stuff they heard from someone who seemed like a
> knowledgeable authority at the time. Usenet suffers from the same problem.
> (I've done my fair share of disseminating B.S.) The only difference is
> that there is enough people reading Usenet that people get corrected on
> misinformation rather effectively.
>
> We're all here to learn. (You can take that in a more general metaphysical
> sense as well, if you want to.)

[Rocco Moretti]

Justin wrote:
> Thanks for that Rocco. :-)
>
> One more question then if i could... You say that Muriate of Potash is
> safe which I may buy as it comes in 2kg bags as opposed to 25kg bags...
> What about Sulfate of Potash, would that be better as it's formula is
> K2SO4, which is exactly as it should be... Is that right?

Muriate of Potash = KCl
Sulfate of Potash = K2SO4

Muriatic Acid = HCl
Sulfuric Acid = H2SO4
Potash = K2CO3
Acid + Carbonate = Salt + CO2

Either works to add K to your tank. The sulfate will also add sulfur
too, which may be a benefit.

[Steve]

Rocco Moretti wrote:
> Justin wrote:
>
>> Thanks for that Rocco. :-)
>>
>> One more question then if i could... You say that Muriate of Potash
>> is safe which I may buy as it comes in 2kg bags as opposed to 25kg
>> bags... What about Sulfate of Potash, would that be better as it's
>> formula is K2SO4, which is exactly as it should be... Is that right?
>
>
> Muriate of Potash = KCl
> Sulfate of Potash = K2SO4
>
> Muriatic Acid = HCl
> Sulfuric Acid = H2SO4
> Potash = K2CO3
> Acid + Carbonate = Salt + CO2
>
> Either works to add K to your tank. The sulfate will also add sulfur
> too, which may be a benefit.

Hi,
Is potassium nitrate still used? I thought it was an ingredient in "poor
man's daily dosing drops".
Steve

[Rocco Moretti]

Steve wrote:

> Hi,
> Is potassium nitrate still used? I thought it was an ingredient in "poor
> man's daily dosing drops".
> Steve

Yup, you can either get it at a local garden store, from
www.gregwatson.com, or sometimes as stump remover (check the label).

KNO3 ("Nitrate of potash" or "saltpeter") adds both potassium and
bio-availible Nitrogen (as nitrate).

[Jake]

Quote: "but there is only one place in Australia that
sells the seachem products and they are out of Seachem K at the moment and"

Justin, there are lots of places in Australia that stock Seachem. I get mine
from Aquaria Australia Warehouse http://www.aquaria.com.au/catalog/ but a
lot of my LFS stock it, especially the larger shops.

[Justin]

I normally get mine from aquaria Aust as well, but this time they were out
of potassium, last time they were out of both nitrogen and phosphourous...
I live in Victoria and i go to about 5 different aquariums and none of them
have the product... Nor are looking at stocking it unfortunately...

They either stock dupla, which i sometimes use or the generic ones.


"Jake" > wrote in message
...
> Quote: "but there is only one place in Australia that
> sells the seachem products and they are out of Seachem K at the moment
> and"
>
> Justin, there are lots of places in Australia that stock Seachem. I get
> mine
> from Aquaria Australia Warehouse http://www.aquaria.com.au/catalog/ but
> a
> lot of my LFS stock it, especially the larger shops.
>
>

[Grae]

Hi
try aquatic life aquariums
http://www.aquaticlifeaquariums.com.au/
i found them cheaper than aquaria
Graeme
"Justin" > wrote in message
...
> I normally get mine from aquaria Aust as well, but this time they were out
> of potassium, last time they were out of both nitrogen and phosphourous...
> I live in Victoria and i go to about 5 different aquariums and none of
them
> have the product... Nor are looking at stocking it unfortunately...
>
> They either stock dupla, which i sometimes use or the generic ones.
>
>
> "Jake" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Quote: "but there is only one place in Australia that
> > sells the seachem products and they are out of Seachem K at the moment
> > and"
> >
> > Justin, there are lots of places in Australia that stock Seachem. I get
> > mine
> > from Aquaria Australia Warehouse http://www.aquaria.com.au/catalog/
but
> > a
> > lot of my LFS stock it, especially the larger shops.
> >
> >
>