Getting the cycle to start...

[Deborah J. Brown]

Hi,

I apologize if this is in an FAQ somewhere. I haven't been able to
find one for this group so if it is, just point me in that direction.

In any case, the situation is this. I have a new, 10 Gal tank with
three red fantails for over a month and a half now. I've lost and
replaced two so far, the first possibly because of new tank syndrome
(not sure because it was the only one who died that way and had been
fine the night before) and the second to an injury due to a (now
removed) bit of tank decoration. I would rather not lose any more, as
I have two small boys (who do /not/ feed, btw) who would be unhappy to
lose them. The fish that are currently in the tank do not appear
stressed, or unhappy. If anything they're very active.

Never minding all that, my problem is that the cycle that all the
books seem to be saying should happen doesn't appear to be occuring.
I've taken various advice from letting it spike to stress-zyme to
ammo-lock and there never seems to be any sign of the nitrites I'm
told should come after the ammonia.

I'm trying to work out whether this is due to something I'm doing,
failing to do or if there's a problem in my water that is causing this
to happen. I feed only once a day and have been changing at
approximately 2 gal at two day intervals owing to the 1.5+ ammonia
levels.

I should also note that I tend to be a bit... enthusiastic in my
efforts with things, so it's entirely possible that I'm overreacting.
However, it does seem strange to me that I've never seen hide nor hair
of a nitrite in the tank.

Thanks!

Deborah Brown

[Maggie's Mom]

"Deborah J. Brown" > wrote
> I have a new, 10 Gal tank with
> three red fantails for over a month and a half now. I've lost and
> replaced two so far, the first possibly because of new tank syndrome

I think that for 3 goldfish you should have at least 30 gal. tank.
Personally I would recommend minimum 55 gallons. It is possible that your
tank is just overcrowded. Can you afford a larger tank?

Love to all, - Maggie's Mom

[Elaine T]

Deborah J. Brown wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I apologize if this is in an FAQ somewhere. I haven't been able to
> find one for this group so if it is, just point me in that direction.
>
> In any case, the situation is this. I have a new, 10 Gal tank with
> three red fantails for over a month and a half now. I've lost and
> replaced two so far, the first possibly because of new tank syndrome
> (not sure because it was the only one who died that way and had been
> fine the night before) and the second to an injury due to a (now
> removed) bit of tank decoration. I would rather not lose any more, as
> I have two small boys (who do /not/ feed, btw) who would be unhappy to
> lose them. The fish that are currently in the tank do not appear
> stressed, or unhappy. If anything they're very active.
>
> Never minding all that, my problem is that the cycle that all the
> books seem to be saying should happen doesn't appear to be occuring.
> I've taken various advice from letting it spike to stress-zyme to
> ammo-lock and there never seems to be any sign of the nitrites I'm
> told should come after the ammonia.
>
> I'm trying to work out whether this is due to something I'm doing,
> failing to do or if there's a problem in my water that is causing this
> to happen. I feed only once a day and have been changing at
> approximately 2 gal at two day intervals owing to the 1.5+ ammonia
> levels.
>
> I should also note that I tend to be a bit... enthusiastic in my
> efforts with things, so it's entirely possible that I'm overreacting.
> However, it does seem strange to me that I've never seen hide nor hair
> of a nitrite in the tank.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Deborah Brown

Let's see. First, FAQs are in my signature. They're not
goldfish-specific but should be helpful. Second, a ten gallon tank is a
suitable long-term home for ONE fancy goldfish. Goldfish get quite
large and produce copious amounts of waste. One fish is also plenty to
cycle a 10 gallon tank, so it's a good thing you're doing those water
changes.

A few possibilities for the ammonia:

1) You're neutralizing ammonia from chloramines in your water and you
happen to have a Nessler test kit that still registers it. You need to
use a salicylate test kit (color change yellow to green) to test for
ammonia in water treated for chloramines or treated with AmQuel, Prime,
Ammo Lock or similar chemicals.

2) You bought large fantails and the ammonia from three large fish is
simply overwhelming what biological filtration you have going.

3) You don't mention a filter. If you don't have one, that's a problem.
If you do, it may be too small or you may be overcleaning it.

4) Have you tested for nitrAtes? It's possible since you're at 6 weeks
that filtration has started to establish without a nitrite spike.
That's rare but sometimes happens. Test your tapwater too, since
tapwater nitrates can alter the readings.

Some people report success seeding a tank with BioSpira bacteria. That
seems to be the only bacterial product that works. You could also ask
LFS for a bit of gravel or buy a plant from a tank with fish in it that
would seed the tank with more bacteria.

Most of all, hang in there! Fish, water, and somewhere for bacteria to
grow always eventually leads to a cycle.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Deborah J. Brown]

On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:12:43 GMT, Elaine T >
wrote:

>Let's see. First, FAQs are in my signature. They're not
>goldfish-specific but should be helpful.

Thanks!

>Second, a ten gallon tank is a
>suitable long-term home for ONE fancy goldfish. Goldfish get quite
>large and produce copious amounts of waste. One fish is also plenty to
>cycle a 10 gallon tank, so it's a good thing you're doing those water
>changes.

They're, currently, not particularly large. Based on their ammonia
production, though - I think it sounds like I'll need to be careful if
they do get a lot bigger. Possibly another tank will be needed, or
I'll have to find some resolution.

Trouble is that we had a stand for the 10 gallon and hadn't
immediately decided on a cold water tank. Ah well, as long as I can
keep the little guys healthy and stress free I'm not going to stress
over that.

As far as I can tell, though, they seem to be pretty happy about
things. None of the signs of stress that I've read about. Only a
certain amount of food begging and that's only to be expected, I
suspect, considering that I've been trying to keep their feedings down
to a small amount.

>1) You're neutralizing ammonia from chloramines in your water and you
>happen to have a Nessler test kit that still registers it. You need to
>use a salicylate test kit (color change yellow to green) to test for
>ammonia in water treated for chloramines or treated with AmQuel, Prime,
>Ammo Lock or similar chemicals.

I'm using Aquarium Pharmaceuticals ammonia test. It turns from
clearish/yellow to green. Is that what you mean?

And yes, I've been treating for cloromines with InstaChlor. Is this
causing a problem? And, for that matter, will the Ammo-lock cause
difficulties as well?

>2) You bought large fantails and the ammonia from three large fish is
>simply overwhelming what biological filtration you have going.

They're about medium to small, as far as I can tell. My fish is the
largest and it's only about an inch and a half... two and a half(?)
inches if you include the tail.

>3) You don't mention a filter. If you don't have one, that's a problem.
> If you do, it may be too small or you may be overcleaning it.

There's definitely a filter, a.. penquin (I think) or something like
that. I haven't touched it as of yet, since it's only just been put
in. It's one of the types with the filter and the wheel, if that means
anything.

>4) Have you tested for nitrAtes? It's possible since you're at 6 weeks
>that filtration has started to establish without a nitrite spike.
>That's rare but sometimes happens. Test your tapwater too, since
>tapwater nitrates can alter the readings.

I had some nitAtes for a bit there. They've disappeared recently but
the nitItes stay non-existent.

And thanks for the heads up on the tapwater test. There do appear to
be some nitrates wandering around in there at the moment. So any
nitrates I'm finding right now are probably not from the tank.

>Some people report success seeding a tank with BioSpira bacteria. That
>seems to be the only bacterial product that works. You could also ask
>LFS for a bit of gravel or buy a plant from a tank with fish in it that
>would seed the tank with more bacteria.

Hmmm. Two possibilities should there be too much trouble. I'm fine
with water changes, really, as long as I have an idea of when and how
much.

>Most of all, hang in there! Fish, water, and somewhere for bacteria to
>grow always eventually leads to a cycle.

One other question, then. During this stage and until the cycle
establishes (dare I hope?) what is the maximum I should allow the
ammonia level to reach and how much of a water change should I
perform? For that matter, should nitrites ever decide to appear in
this tank, same question.

Deborah - willing to wait as long as the fish are safe enough

[Kurt]

Elaine T wrote in m:

> Let's see. First, FAQs are in my signature.

Wowsers! Thanks from a lurker! Excellent resourse.

--
Cheers,
Kurt

[fondoo]

visit goldfish utopia forum. you can find all answers there.
http://goldfishutopia.net/


"Kurt" > wrote in message
...
> Elaine T wrote in m:
>
>> Let's see. First, FAQs are in my signature.
>
> Wowsers! Thanks from a lurker! Excellent resourse.
>
> --
> Cheers,
> Kurt
>

[Geezer From The Freezer]

fondoo wrote:
>
> visit goldfish utopia forum. you can find all answers there.
> http://goldfishutopia.net/
>

or http://www.goldfishparadise.com forum ;)

[Kurt]

Geezer From The Freezer wrote in :

> fondoo wrote:
>>
>> visit goldfish utopia forum. you can find all answers there.
>> http://goldfishutopia.net/
>>
>
> or http://www.goldfishparadise.com forum ;)
>
>

TY. I'll look them up as time permits today.

--
Cheers,
Kurt

[Elaine T]

Deborah J. Brown wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:12:43 GMT, Elaine T >
> wrote:

<snip>

>>1) You're neutralizing ammonia from chloramines in your water and you
>>happen to have a Nessler test kit that still registers it. You need to
>>use a salicylate test kit (color change yellow to green) to test for
>>ammonia in water treated for chloramines or treated with AmQuel, Prime,
>>Ammo Lock or similar chemicals.
>
>
> I'm using Aquarium Pharmaceuticals ammonia test. It turns from
> clearish/yellow to green. Is that what you mean?

That's the right test to use. You're measuring free, toxic ammnonia.
I'm surprised your fish aren't somewhat lethargic at 1-1.5 ppm, unless
your tapwater is below pH 7.

> And yes, I've been treating for cloromines with InstaChlor. Is this
> causing a problem? And, for that matter, will the Ammo-lock cause
> difficulties as well?

AHA! There's part of the trouble. Chloramine is a molecule formed from
chlorine and ammonia. InstaChlor breaks the chloramine bond and
detoxifies the resulting chlorine, but doesn't detoxify the remaining
ammonia. Every time you change water, you are adding more ammonia to
the tank. I'd recommend you switch to Kordon AmQuel or AmQuel+ for both
treating chloramines and detoxifying free ammonia. I've used AmQuel
myself for years and in agreement with Kordon's claims, it's never
caused a stuck cycle. I have no direct experience with Ammo-Lock so
even though it may be fine, I hesitate to recommend it.

>>2) You bought large fantails and the ammonia from three large fish is
>>simply overwhelming what biological filtration you have going.
>
> They're about medium to small, as far as I can tell. My fish is the
> largest and it's only about an inch and a half... two and a half(?)
> inches if you include the tail.
>
Fantails have fat little bodies and put out a lot of waste, but you
should be fine for now. I would have only used one to cycle.

>>3) You don't mention a filter. If you don't have one, that's a problem.
>> If you do, it may be too small or you may be overcleaning it.
>
> There's definitely a filter, a.. penquin (I think) or something like
> that. I haven't touched it as of yet, since it's only just been put
> in. It's one of the types with the filter and the wheel, if that means
> anything.

Biowheels are great. That will help considerably once your tank gets
going. Penguins aerate the water nicely too, which is good for goldies.

<snip>

> One other question, then. During this stage and until the cycle
> establishes (dare I hope?) what is the maximum I should allow the
> ammonia level to reach and how much of a water change should I
> perform? For that matter, should nitrites ever decide to appear in
> this tank, same question.

The safe amount of ammonia depends on the pH. The higher the pH, the
more toxic ammonia is. If it's neutral or below, 1 or even 2 ppm is
usually not enough to cause distress. Around pH 7.5 fish can start to
show signs of stress as low as 0.5 ppm. Most importantly, watch your fish.

Signs of ammonia toxicity are lethargy, gasping, or purplish gills. Fin
damage or bloody streaks in the fins can appear after a few days. If
you see toxicity, check your tank pH and tapwater pH. If they match, do
a 50% water change and add AmQuel. If the tapwater pH is higher by more
than 0.2 from the tank, you would make the ammonia more toxic with a big
water change, so change less water and rely more on AmQuel.

Nitrites are best kept below 2 ppm. Again lethargy and hard gilling are
typical signs of toxicity. Lower nitrites with generous water changes,
guided by your test kit. For example, if nitrite is suddenly at 3 ppm,
you'll need to change half the water, and probably more in a day or two.

While your tank is cycling, I'd recommend adding 1 tsp/gallon of
aquarium or pickling salt to the water. Salt helps counteract nitrite
poisoning. Add it to replacement water for your water changes until
you're through the nitrite part of the cycle and then allow it to fall.

> Deborah - willing to wait as long as the fish are safe enough
>
As long as you're testing water and aware of what's happening in the
tank, the fish are safe. It sounds like they're in capable hands. Good
luck!

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Deborah J. Brown]

On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 09:22:46 GMT, Elaine T >
wrote:
>> On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:12:43 GMT, Elaine T >
>AHA! There's part of the trouble. Chloramine is a molecule formed from
>chlorine and ammonia. InstaChlor breaks the chloramine bond and
>detoxifies the resulting chlorine, but doesn't detoxify the remaining
>ammonia. Every time you change water, you are adding more ammonia to
>the tank. I'd recommend you switch to Kordon AmQuel or AmQuel+ for both
>treating chloramines and detoxifying free ammonia. I've used AmQuel
>myself for years and in agreement with Kordon's claims, it's never
>caused a stuck cycle. I have no direct experience with Ammo-Lock so
>even though it may be fine, I hesitate to recommend it.

Hmmm. I'll give it a try then, if the problem persists with the
ammo-lock in place. (I /am/ keeping an eye on the fish and their
behavior in the process, btw, so any sign of problems there will mean
a switch off.) I hesitate to keep changing methods before I've given a
method an appropriate time to work.

For what it's worth, I got a bottle of AmQuel today, so I'll be good
to go if there are problems.

>Fantails have fat little bodies and put out a lot of waste, but you
>should be fine for now. I would have only used one to cycle.

Yah. I based the number on the book, but now that I think about it, I
suspect the author was thinking of a larger tank. One thought I have
is to use the smaller, 2.5 gal tank I got for a sick tank to attempt
to start a cycle going without fish in it. /If/ the problem persists,
would this work?

>Biowheels are great. That will help considerably once your tank gets
>going. Penguins aerate the water nicely too, which is good for goldies.

Good. I also have a high flow of air bubbles going through. I can't
give them the large water surface needed for more oxygen but I can at
least provide that.

>The safe amount of ammonia depends on the pH. The higher the pH, the
>more toxic ammonia is. If it's neutral or below, 1 or even 2 ppm is
>usually not enough to cause distress. Around pH 7.5 fish can start to
>show signs of stress as low as 0.5 ppm. Most importantly, watch your fish.

Thanks! That helps. They're bouncing around exceedingly happily right
now. Though they're also grumbling that I don't feed 'em. Why do I
always end up with pets that want loads of food, even when it's not
good for them?

><snip info on water changing and salt and stuff.>

All good info and thanks again!

>As long as you're testing water and aware of what's happening in the
>tank, the fish are safe. It sounds like they're in capable hands. Good
>luck!

Thanks!

Deborah

[Daniel Morrow]

"Deborah J. Brown" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 09:22:46 GMT, Elaine T >
> wrote:
> >> On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:12:43 GMT, Elaine T >
> >AHA! There's part of the trouble. Chloramine is a molecule formed from
> >chlorine and ammonia. InstaChlor breaks the chloramine bond and
> >detoxifies the resulting chlorine, but doesn't detoxify the remaining
> >ammonia. Every time you change water, you are adding more ammonia to
> >the tank. I'd recommend you switch to Kordon AmQuel or AmQuel+ for both
> >treating chloramines and detoxifying free ammonia. I've used AmQuel
> >myself for years and in agreement with Kordon's claims, it's never
> >caused a stuck cycle. I have no direct experience with Ammo-Lock so
> >even though it may be fine, I hesitate to recommend it.
>
> Hmmm. I'll give it a try then, if the problem persists with the
> ammo-lock in place. (I /am/ keeping an eye on the fish and their
> behavior in the process, btw, so any sign of problems there will mean
> a switch off.) I hesitate to keep changing methods before I've given a
> method an appropriate time to work.
>
> For what it's worth, I got a bottle of AmQuel today, so I'll be good
> to go if there are problems.
>
> >Fantails have fat little bodies and put out a lot of waste, but you
> >should be fine for now. I would have only used one to cycle.
>
> Yah. I based the number on the book, but now that I think about it, I
> suspect the author was thinking of a larger tank. One thought I have
> is to use the smaller, 2.5 gal tank I got for a sick tank to attempt
> to start a cycle going without fish in it. /If/ the problem persists,
> would this work?

It should work - do research on fishless cycling. It basically involves
putting some ammonia in a properly set up tank and watching the ammonia go
down and then a nitrite spike, and finally some nitrates (nitrates are
better/safer than nitrites). Good luck and later!


>
> >Biowheels are great. That will help considerably once your tank gets
> >going. Penguins aerate the water nicely too, which is good for goldies.
>
> Good. I also have a high flow of air bubbles going through. I can't
> give them the large water surface needed for more oxygen but I can at
> least provide that.
>
> >The safe amount of ammonia depends on the pH. The higher the pH, the
> >more toxic ammonia is. If it's neutral or below, 1 or even 2 ppm is
> >usually not enough to cause distress. Around pH 7.5 fish can start to
> >show signs of stress as low as 0.5 ppm. Most importantly, watch your
fish.
>
> Thanks! That helps. They're bouncing around exceedingly happily right
> now. Though they're also grumbling that I don't feed 'em. Why do I
> always end up with pets that want loads of food, even when it's not
> good for them?
>
> ><snip info on water changing and salt and stuff.>
>
> All good info and thanks again!
>
> >As long as you're testing water and aware of what's happening in the
> >tank, the fish are safe. It sounds like they're in capable hands. Good
> >luck!
>
> Thanks!
>
> Deborah
>

[NanK]

Petsmart has begun to carry Seachem's STABILITY. I have used it
successfully for my last three tanks.

Suggest you do a 50% water change - don't forget the dechlor and watch
the temperature. I use my electronic food thermometer -- gives me an
instant temp reading.

Add STABILITY per dose on bottle, and add it EVERY day for 7 Days, then
every week, per instructions on bottle.

Depending upon size of your fish (if they are 2 inches or more) you will
continue to have a problem. If they are tiny, you could get by for a
few months.

Good luck.

n

[Elaine T]

NanK wrote:
> Petsmart has begun to carry Seachem's STABILITY. I have used it
> successfully for my last three tanks.
>
> Suggest you do a 50% water change - don't forget the dechlor and watch
> the temperature. I use my electronic food thermometer -- gives me an
> instant temp reading.
>
> Add STABILITY per dose on bottle, and add it EVERY day for 7 Days, then
> every week, per instructions on bottle.
>
> Depending upon size of your fish (if they are 2 inches or more) you will
> continue to have a problem. If they are tiny, you could get by for a
> few months.
>
> Good luck.
>
> n

Cool! I'm curious, Nan - did you see ammonia or nitrite at all in those
tanks or did it kick in right away? Did you need to change any water
during the week? Also, do you really have to keep adding it for a
normally stocked tank or can it establish a stable bacterial colony?

A cycling product that actually works would be nice and I can believe
that Seachem would be the one to come up with it.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[fondoo]

has anyone tried marineland bio-spira? i heard it works great to cycle the
tank faster.


"Elaine T" > wrote in message
m...
> NanK wrote:
>> Petsmart has begun to carry Seachem's STABILITY. I have used it
>> successfully for my last three tanks.
>>
>> Suggest you do a 50% water change - don't forget the dechlor and watch
>> the temperature. I use my electronic food thermometer -- gives me an
>> instant temp reading.
>>
>> Add STABILITY per dose on bottle, and add it EVERY day for 7 Days, then
>> every week, per instructions on bottle.
>>
>> Depending upon size of your fish (if they are 2 inches or more) you will
>> continue to have a problem. If they are tiny, you could get by for a
>> few months.
>>
>> Good luck.
>>
>> n
>
> Cool! I'm curious, Nan - did you see ammonia or nitrite at all in those
> tanks or did it kick in right away? Did you need to change any water
> during the week? Also, do you really have to keep adding it for a
> normally stocked tank or can it establish a stable bacterial colony?
>
> A cycling product that actually works would be nice and I can believe that
> Seachem would be the one to come up with it.
>
> --
> Elaine T __
> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[NanK]

Sorry this took so long to answer! We're trying to do some house repairs!

Anyway, yes, I did see ammonia levels go up but nothing alarming, and I
was scared to death that something would crash on me, but Stability kept
it under control. After I added the product, I would test again in an
hour and the levels would drop. I did not bother to measure for nitrite
for three days, at which time the tests showed 0.

Also, I noticed that the ammonia test results, instead of appearing a
yellow color, looked brownish! I thought the test kit solution went bad
because the color was so strange, but when I used the kit in my other
tanks, it was fine! I want to contact Seachem to ask about this.

I also had a baby goldfish, dying from starvation. I needed to take him
out of his tank and frankly, expected him to die. But I used Stability
to quickly cycle his 2.5 gallon tank and he was completely well by the
time the 7 days were over. His torn fins started to heal immediately
and he never stopped eating! I used Stability, Prime (Seachem's dechlor
product) and Stress Guard. I fed him Bio Blend for Goldfish and
PRO-GOLD from Goldfishconnection.com.

He is now in my 40 gallon with two much bigger goldfish and growing quickly.

Consider trying the product and let us know your results!

n



> Cool! I'm curious, Nan - did you see ammonia or nitrite at all in those
> tanks or did it kick in right away? Did you need to change any water
> during the week? Also, do you really have to keep adding it for a
> normally stocked tank or can it establish a stable bacterial colony?
>
> A cycling product that actually works would be nice and I can believe
> that Seachem would be the one to come up with it.
>

[Elaine T]

NanK wrote:
> Sorry this took so long to answer! We're trying to do some house repairs!
>
> Anyway, yes, I did see ammonia levels go up but nothing alarming, and I
> was scared to death that something would crash on me, but Stability kept
> it under control. After I added the product, I would test again in an
> hour and the levels would drop. I did not bother to measure for nitrite
> for three days, at which time the tests showed 0.
>
> Also, I noticed that the ammonia test results, instead of appearing a
> yellow color, looked brownish! I thought the test kit solution went bad
> because the color was so strange, but when I used the kit in my other
> tanks, it was fine! I want to contact Seachem to ask about this.
>
> I also had a baby goldfish, dying from starvation. I needed to take him
> out of his tank and frankly, expected him to die. But I used Stability
> to quickly cycle his 2.5 gallon tank and he was completely well by the
> time the 7 days were over. His torn fins started to heal immediately
> and he never stopped eating! I used Stability, Prime (Seachem's dechlor
> product) and Stress Guard. I fed him Bio Blend for Goldfish and
> PRO-GOLD from Goldfishconnection.com.
>
> He is now in my 40 gallon with two much bigger goldfish and growing
> quickly.
>
> Consider trying the product and let us know your results!
>
Thanks, Nan!
I'll keep it in mind next time I have to try cycling a hospital tank.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com