Ragged fins --- introduction

[[email protected]]

I have lurked this group for a while, and learned a lot from many
people. I just wanted to introduce myself and hopefully get some
feedback on my setup.

First off, the setup: I have one large comet that I've kept for 8
years. He started at about an inch and is now over 7 inches. (I think
he's a he because of a pretty thick leading edge on the anal fin, but I
haven't known enough fish to compare.) He's currently in 29 gallons
with an Emperor 280 and 18 inch bubble wall. I use the standard
cartridge in the filter, plus activated charcoal in the media catridge,
cause he's a big dirty fish. He eats TetraFin flakes and ocassional
frozen brine shrimp and rejects most everything else.

He is generally healthy, and very alert to human interaction, but very
active and aggressive and beat himself up on a composite rock formation
that I tried a few months ago. He lost a bunch of scales and I think
he may have started to develop an infection, so I changed the setup to
soft and smooth and treated with medicated food; all seemed well.

Chemistries are generally ideal. Ph is 7.5-7.6, Ammonia is 0, Nitrite
is 0, Nitrate is 40 ppm.

Second, the issue: ragged fins. I noticed a bit of raggedness on the
edges of his fins. No major splits or missing chunks yet, but some
very small black marks along the edges in a few places. I know ragged
fins usually means fin/tail rot, but I wasn't sure if the black marks
were consistent with this. I had thought the black might have been
ammonia burns.

I changed out all the filtration media, did a 50% change and about a
half cup of salt. I'm holding off on the treatment to see if that does
anything (water quality probs instead of infection). If it's an
infection, I'm also not really sure what treatment to use. According
to the Mardel literature, fin rot can be caused by gram-postive or
gram-negative infection. So...

Sorry about the long post, but if anyone has thoughts or advice please
let me know thanks.

JRF

[Elaine T]

wrote:
> I have lurked this group for a while, and learned a lot from many
> people. I just wanted to introduce myself and hopefully get some
> feedback on my setup.
>
> First off, the setup: I have one large comet that I've kept for 8
> years. He started at about an inch and is now over 7 inches. (I think
> he's a he because of a pretty thick leading edge on the anal fin, but I
> haven't known enough fish to compare.) He's currently in 29 gallons
> with an Emperor 280 and 18 inch bubble wall. I use the standard
> cartridge in the filter, plus activated charcoal in the media catridge,
> cause he's a big dirty fish. He eats TetraFin flakes and ocassional
> frozen brine shrimp and rejects most everything else.
>
> He is generally healthy, and very alert to human interaction, but very
> active and aggressive and beat himself up on a composite rock formation
> that I tried a few months ago. He lost a bunch of scales and I think
> he may have started to develop an infection, so I changed the setup to
> soft and smooth and treated with medicated food; all seemed well.
>
> Chemistries are generally ideal. Ph is 7.5-7.6, Ammonia is 0, Nitrite
> is 0, Nitrate is 40 ppm.
>
> Second, the issue: ragged fins. I noticed a bit of raggedness on the
> edges of his fins. No major splits or missing chunks yet, but some
> very small black marks along the edges in a few places. I know ragged
> fins usually means fin/tail rot, but I wasn't sure if the black marks
> were consistent with this. I had thought the black might have been
> ammonia burns.
>
> I changed out all the filtration media, did a 50% change and about a
> half cup of salt. I'm holding off on the treatment to see if that does
> anything (water quality probs instead of infection). If it's an
> infection, I'm also not really sure what treatment to use. According
> to the Mardel literature, fin rot can be caused by gram-postive or
> gram-negative infection. So...
>
> Sorry about the long post, but if anyone has thoughts or advice please
> let me know thanks.
>
> JRF
>
I agree that salt and water quality improvements are the way to go. I'd
start with 25% weekly water changes. Your 40 ppm nitrate suggests that
you're not changing enough. Also, I don't usually change out all of the
filtration media at once in a tank - you can reduce bacterial
populations enough to cause a mini cycle.

With finrot, actual infections usually look whitish at the edges of the
rotting fin, rather than just ragged. Ammonia burn is a reasonable
thing to suspect. Sometimes a very thorough gravel clean and a bit of
AmQuel for a couple of weeks while the bacteria regrow helps improve
tank conditions.

If you eventually want to go the medicine route, I have cured stubborn
bacterial finrot with Paragon 2 by Aquatronics. Paragon 2 contains
metronidazole, furazolidone, neomycin sulfate, and naladixic acid.
Unfortunately, it will kill your filter bacteria too so you usually have
to manage ammonia and recycle the tank. I only use it in a hospital.

Kanamycin and Maracyn 2 are more filter friendly, so you might try
either of those first. They don't kill all bacteria, but they do hit a
lot of the common ones.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Geezer From The Freezer]

Changing all the media is a bad thing. You're removing the bio-bugs.
I'd suggest getting the nitrates to below 20ppm by doing a 50% water
change.

Also try melafix - its natural and good for healing wounds and split fins
and won't destroy your bio filtration - although thats probably gone now
cos your chucked all the old media away.

[[email protected]]

Thanks for the replies... I should mention that I did not do anything
to the biowheel on the filter... that's where most of the bugs live,
right?

I also have plenty of gravel with all kinds of bio material in it, I
did a pretty good vacuuming with the recent change, though.

The update is there was a bit of a minicycle regardless... nitrites
went to .25, nitrates remained at 40. I removed the media cartidge
containing activated charcoal and replaced it with nitra-zorb
("downstream" of the main filter). I salted a bit more, but I think
I'm going to steer away from meds for now. Anyone used nitra-zorb
before? This is my first try.

I do have biozyme left over from setting up this tank a year or so ago.
Should I add that to stimulate some growth? Once again, I want to
clarify that I replaced the main filter cartridge and the charcoal
media in the Emperor, and didn't touch the biowheel. Am I not supposed
to change the filter cartridge every 4 weeks?

Thanks again!

[Elaine T]

Geezer From The Freezer wrote:
> Changing all the media is a bad thing. You're removing the bio-bugs.
> I'd suggest getting the nitrates to below 20ppm by doing a 50% water
> change.
>
> Also try melafix - its natural and good for healing wounds and split fins
> and won't destroy your bio filtration - although thats probably gone now
> cos your chucked all the old media away.

Have you seen any real data on Melafix? All I can find are anecdotes
and people confused about tea tree oil. Please point the way if you've
seen any studies.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Elaine T]

wrote:
> Thanks for the replies... I should mention that I did not do anything
> to the biowheel on the filter... that's where most of the bugs live,
> right?

Depends on how much gunk is in your gravel for bugs to feed on.
>
> I also have plenty of gravel with all kinds of bio material in it, I
> did a pretty good vacuuming with the recent change, though.
>
> The update is there was a bit of a minicycle regardless... nitrites
> went to .25, nitrates remained at 40. I removed the media cartidge
> containing activated charcoal and replaced it with nitra-zorb
> ("downstream" of the main filter). I salted a bit more, but I think
> I'm going to steer away from meds for now. Anyone used nitra-zorb
> before? This is my first try.

In fish-only tanks, I've had better luck with water changes then any
other method of nitrate reduction (assuming your tap water is low
nitrate). You could look at HDL bacteria and carbon - they're supposed
to work. http://www.hdltd.com/ I have a friend who uses the FW system
and says it works well. I'm getting ready to try it myself.

> I do have biozyme left over from setting up this tank a year or so ago.
> Should I add that to stimulate some growth? Once again, I want to
> clarify that I replaced the main filter cartridge and the charcoal
> media in the Emperor, and didn't touch the biowheel. Am I not supposed
> to change the filter cartridge every 4 weeks?

With a biowheel, you usually shouldn't get a mini-cycle and yes, you
change the filter cartridge monthly. You did things right. It sounds
like there was a lot of mulm and bacteria in the gravel overloading the
capacity of the biowheel. I wouldn't add year old opened biozyme.
Yuck. Bacteria reproduce incredibly fast and your tank will be fine in
a few days.

If I were you, I'd just up the water changes and gravel vac for a while.
If that doesn't do the trick, add another biowheel or go to the HDL
system. Or...buy him a bigger tank. ;-)
>
> Thanks again!
>


--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[[email protected]]

Thanks again. I'm throwing out the biozyme before I forget. This is
why my wife is always making me throw out leftovers from the fridge
that I still think are perfectly good.

The HDL system looks very interesting, thanks for the link.

I'm going to continue with the salt regimen for the injuries, they
aren't getting worse.

I think I need to reduce my gravel volume, it's over an inch deep of
large, pebbly stuff in most places and I don't use real plants because
he destroys them and the bits clog everything up. It looks like I need
to reduce gradually so I don't lose the cycle, so I'm thinking about
reducing gravel by a third or so over 2-3 weeks.

My nitrites went back down to 0, but nitrates are the same at 40. I
think... the colors start to look the same if you look at them long
enough! As best as I can tell, with the Aquarium Pharmaceuticals test,
I've got a kool-aid colored red, so I'm going with 40.

Anyway... a bigger tank is probably not going to happen right now. 29
gallons for one goldie better be enough! I'll do a 7 gallon change
this week and keep testing.

Bigger tank.... sheesh!

[Geezer From The Freezer]

Elaine T wrote:
>
> Geezer From The Freezer wrote:
> > Changing all the media is a bad thing. You're removing the bio-bugs.
> > I'd suggest getting the nitrates to below 20ppm by doing a 50% water
> > change.
> >
> > Also try melafix - its natural and good for healing wounds and split fins
> > and won't destroy your bio filtration - although thats probably gone now
> > cos your chucked all the old media away.
>
> Have you seen any real data on Melafix? All I can find are anecdotes
> and people confused about tea tree oil. Please point the way if you've
> seen any studies.

Nope but I've used it successfully. Small doses also helped me raise Fry
with less deaths than previously.

[NanK]

> The update is there was a bit of a minicycle regardless... nitrites
> went to .25, nitrates remained at 40. I removed the media cartidge
> containing activated charcoal and replaced it with nitra-zorb
> ("downstream" of the main filter). I salted a bit more, but I think
> I'm going to steer away from meds f
Try adding Stability to your tank for a few days every day to reseed
your aquarium with good biobugs!

n