Kindest way to end the suffering of a guppy

[rsb21]

Unfortunately we believe one of our female guppies either has dropsy or a
tumour. She is showing signs of "pine-cone scales" and is very swollen. We
isolated her in a hospital tank and we tried treating with anti-bacterial
medication in case there was an underlying bacterial infection however she
has shown no signs of improvement. The water quality tests for ammonia, pH,
nitrate and nitrate are all healthy.

Two questions:

1) if she shows no sign of improvement, how can we most humanely put her
down and how do we judge when it is time to do so? I would hate to prolong
her suffering.

2) what do we do to our main tank to prevent similar problems with our other
fish? Obviously if it is a tumour then it is most probably a genetic
problem, however I have heard that dropsy can be contagious. All other fish
at the moment are looking healthy. We do 25% water changes once a week and
dechlorinate the water we put in. They are on a mixed diet of tropical fish
flake and frozen "live" food. Also, about once every two weeks they get a
treat of fresh brine shrimp. The tank has a number of live plants in it
also.

Thanks very much for any advice. Rachel

[Derek W. Benson]

On Tue, 2 Aug 2005 12:25:40 +0100, "rsb21" > wrote:

>Unfortunately we believe one of our female guppies either has dropsy or a
>tumour. She is showing signs of "pine-cone scales" and is very swollen. We
>isolated her in a hospital tank and we tried treating with anti-bacterial
>medication in case there was an underlying bacterial infection however she
>has shown no signs of improvement. The water quality tests for ammonia, pH,
>nitrate and nitrate are all healthy.
>
>Two questions:
>
>1) if she shows no sign of improvement, how can we most humanely put her
>down and how do we judge when it is time to do so? I would hate to prolong
>her suffering.
>
>2) what do we do to our main tank to prevent similar problems with our other
>fish? Obviously if it is a tumour then it is most probably a genetic
>problem, however I have heard that dropsy can be contagious. All other fish
>at the moment are looking healthy. We do 25% water changes once a week and
>dechlorinate the water we put in. They are on a mixed diet of tropical fish
>flake and frozen "live" food. Also, about once every two weeks they get a
>treat of fresh brine shrimp. The tank has a number of live plants in it
>also.
>
>Thanks very much for any advice. Rachel
>
IMO the kindest or most humane methods would be those which go as
quickly as possible. So the two methods I would use on a fish as small
as a guppy are methods which some people here probably consider as
brutal, or cruel; but they aren't as the fish will be gone in about a
half second or a tenth of a second.

Cut off its head with a sharp kitchen knife or drop it in boiling
water.

Do you vacuum your gravel when you change water? I ask because if
Dropsy is bacterial, then you want to keep your tank as clean as
feasible. Gravel vacuuming and changing water will dilute out the
bacteria critters, if their numbers are smaller their chances of
inflicting your fish are smaller.

-Derek

[NetMax]

"rsb21" > wrote in message
...
> Unfortunately we believe one of our female guppies either has dropsy or a
> tumour. She is showing signs of "pine-cone scales" and is very swollen.
> We
> isolated her in a hospital tank and we tried treating with anti-bacterial
> medication in case there was an underlying bacterial infection however she
> has shown no signs of improvement. The water quality tests for ammonia,
> pH,
> nitrate and nitrate are all healthy.
>
> Two questions:
>
> 1) if she shows no sign of improvement, how can we most humanely put her
> down and how do we judge when it is time to do so? I would hate to
> prolong
> her suffering.

Clove oil (sold in drug stores for tooth-aches to numb gums) works very well
for all sizes. For small fish, mechanical stress also works well (inside a
wet napkin, inside a zip lock bag, on a concrete floor and impacted with a
suitable flat weight (brick)). ymmv as to which is most suitable.

Once the scales are 'pine-coning', there is usually no chance of cure for
small fish. Without intervention, the fish will probably not live long
anyways. It's not neccesarily 'suffering' as they don't have a
human-comparable nervous system.

> 2) what do we do to our main tank to prevent similar problems with our
> other
> fish? Obviously if it is a tumour then it is most probably a genetic
> problem, however I have heard that dropsy can be contagious. All other
> fish
> at the moment are looking healthy. We do 25% water changes once a week
> and
> dechlorinate the water we put in. They are on a mixed diet of tropical
> fish
> flake and frozen "live" food. Also, about once every two weeks they get a
> treat of fresh brine shrimp. The tank has a number of live plants in it
> also.

Dropsy is not a specific disease, but rather a generic symptom of internal
bacterial disease. There is a possibility that it's not in the water. I
would do nothing but keep the tank clean, fish healthy and wait and see.
again ymmv.
--
www.NetMax.tk

> Thanks very much for any advice. Rachel
>
>

[coolchinchilla]

I'm so sorry about your fish.

rsb21 wrote:
> 1) if she shows no sign of improvement, how can we most humanely put her
> down and how do we judge when it is time to do so? I would hate to prolong
> her suffering.

Opinions differ on humane euthanasia. Here is a site that gives a
thorough discussion of different methods:
http://bcaquaria.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1867[url]

The method the site writer recommends is ice water. Fill a bowl
with water and put it in the freezer. Wait until there is ice on
the sides and top of the bowl but still water under the top layer of
ice. Break the top ice, place the fish in the water. The fish dies
from the shock of the temperature change. It takes 1 or 2
seconds. This method is good for small fish.

So sorry you need to even consider this.
coolchinchilla

[Logic316]

Derek W. Benson wrote:

> IMO the kindest or most humane methods would be those which go as
> quickly as possible. So the two methods I would use on a fish as small
> as a guppy are methods which some people here probably consider as
> brutal, or cruel; but they aren't as the fish will be gone in about a
> half second or a tenth of a second.
>
> Cut off its head with a sharp kitchen knife or drop it in boiling
> water.

I don't know about guppies, but I've often caught larger types of
freshwater fish whose heads continued to live and move for up to half an
hour after being decapitated. A fish's heart is located in it's head and
continues to beat for a long time, and it's simple nervous system allows
it to remain conscious when subjected to trauma that would instantly
knock out and kill most higher lifeforms. Not a method I'd try if I
wanted to the fish to go quickly.

Boiling water is certainly a quick way to go for a *small* fish, but it
just seems like a disrespectful way to treat a pet regardless of what it
can actually feel. Some folks recommend striking the fish hard on the
the head to destroy it's brain, but that also tends to be traumatic to
the owner. Nobody wants to remember a pet that may have kept them
company for years going out that way.

I would combine two of the more gentle methods I've read about - try
mixing clove oil or some other anaesthetic with water in a container,
and then putting it in the freezer with the fish in it. The
anaesthetising effect of the oil should prevent any possibility of the
fish feeling the cold as it's metabolism slowly shuts down and ices
over. Being under strong anaesthesia while slowly being frozen would be
a painless enough death for a warmblooded mammal with a complex brain
like us. So I think it would be more than humane for a primitive
coldblooded vertabrae such as a fish.

- Logic316


"Welfare's purpose should be to eliminate, as far as possible, the need
for its own existence."
-- Ronald Reagan

[Logic316]

rsb21 wrote:
> Unfortunately we believe one of our female guppies either has dropsy or a
> tumour. She is showing signs of "pine-cone scales" and is very swollen. We
> isolated her in a hospital tank and we tried treating with anti-bacterial
> medication in case there was an underlying bacterial infection however she
> has shown no signs of improvement. The water quality tests for ammonia, pH,
> nitrate and nitrate are all healthy.

Have you tried using Epsom salt? Using 1/8 teaspoon of Epsom salt per 5
gallons of water may help reduce the internal pressure caused by the
swelling.

Keeping the water in the hospital tank at 86 degrees fahrenheit and
highly aerated may also help kill the bacteria responsible.

- Logic316



"Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short
phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it
stops moving, subsidize it."
-- Ronald Reagan

[Derek W. Benson]

On Thu, 04 Aug 2005 02:59:55 -0400, Logic316
> wrote:

>Derek W. Benson wrote:
>
> > IMO the kindest or most humane methods would be those which go as
> > quickly as possible. So the two methods I would use on a fish as small
> > as a guppy are methods which some people here probably consider as
> > brutal, or cruel; but they aren't as the fish will be gone in about a
> > half second or a tenth of a second.
> >
> > Cut off its head with a sharp kitchen knife or drop it in boiling
> > water.
>
>I don't know about guppies, but I've often caught larger types of
>freshwater fish whose heads continued to live and move for up to half an
>hour after being decapitated. A fish's heart is located in it's head and
>continues to beat for a long time, and it's simple nervous system allows
>it to remain conscious when subjected to trauma that would instantly
>knock out and kill most higher lifeforms. Not a method I'd try if I
>wanted to the fish to go quickly.

According to diagrams, illustrations, in a fish biology book that I
have, the heart of a fish is approximately located just behind the
gills or under the last gill. I don't consider this to be the head of
a fish. If you look at a shark for example, the heart is under the
last gill approximately, but on the top of the fish this point is
halfway to the dorsal fin! This point certainly can't be considered
part of the head of the shark.

-Derek

[Logic316]

Derek W. Benson wrote:

> According to diagrams, illustrations, in a fish biology book that I
> have, the heart of a fish is approximately located just behind the
> gills or under the last gill. I don't consider this to be the head of
> a fish. If you look at a shark for example, the heart is under the
> last gill approximately, but on the top of the fish this point is
> halfway to the dorsal fin! This point certainly can't be considered
> part of the head of the shark.
>
> -Derek

When cleaning sunfish, bass, trout, and catfish I'd cut the head off,
and I could see the heart beating right inside the head. I suppose one
could cut closer to the gills, but in practice it's not always that
easy. In any case, many fish continue to live a long time after
decapitation, especially fish that evolved to survive in low oxygen
conditions. A catfish head can live on for hours! I even had one bite my
hand long after I thought it was dead, heh.

- Logic316



"Bureaucracy: The process of turning energy into solid waste."

[NetMax]

"Logic316" > wrote in message
...
> Derek W. Benson wrote:
>
>> According to diagrams, illustrations, in a fish biology book that I
>> have, the heart of a fish is approximately located just behind the
>> gills or under the last gill. I don't consider this to be the head of
>> a fish. If you look at a shark for example, the heart is under the
>> last gill approximately, but on the top of the fish this point is
>> halfway to the dorsal fin! This point certainly can't be considered
>> part of the head of the shark.
>>
>> -Derek
>
> When cleaning sunfish, bass, trout, and catfish I'd cut the head off, and
> I could see the heart beating right inside the head. I suppose one could
> cut closer to the gills, but in practice it's not always that easy. In any
> case, many fish continue to live a long time after decapitation,
> especially fish that evolved to survive in low oxygen conditions. A
> catfish head can live on for hours! I even had one bite my hand long after
> I thought it was dead, heh.
>
> - Logic316


I don't know about the heart's location, but I have observed a decapitated
goldfish head breathing and looking around for a long time after it was
severed. Cutting the head off is not something I'd try, if only to not cut
my own fingers ;~). Clove oil - freezing sounds fine, but small fish seem
to die very quickly in clove oil, long before the water would appreciably
cool, so it might be overkill (excuse the pun).
--
www.NetMax.tk

> "Bureaucracy: The process of turning energy into solid waste."

[Dr Engelbert Buxbaum]

Logic316 wrote:

> Some folks recommend striking the fish hard on the
> the head to destroy it's brain, but that also tends to be traumatic to
> the owner. Nobody wants to remember a pet that may have kept them
> company for years going out that way.

IMHO the best way is to wrap the fish in a wet cloth and then use a
brick or something. Force should be so excessive that you need not
unwrapp the cloth to check your handywork. Quick and thorough - no
possibility of pain.

Of course that method can be used only if there is no need for a
postmortem to find the cause of the problem.

[Dick]

On Tue, 2 Aug 2005 12:25:40 +0100, "rsb21" > wrote:

>Unfortunately we believe one of our female guppies either has dropsy or a
>tumour. She is showing signs of "pine-cone scales" and is very swollen. We
>isolated her in a hospital tank and we tried treating with anti-bacterial
>medication in case there was an underlying bacterial infection however she
>has shown no signs of improvement. The water quality tests for ammonia, pH,
>nitrate and nitrate are all healthy.
>
>Two questions:
>
>1) if she shows no sign of improvement, how can we most humanely put her
>down and how do we judge when it is time to do so? I would hate to prolong
>her suffering.
>
I have a very practical measure to when to end the suffering; When I
can catch the fish! I have a large black molly in a 75 gallon tank.
She has looked poorly for weeks. This morning I thought she looked
particularly bad, so in with the net. Surprise, I would have not
thought she could move so fast! So she lives another day.

dick


>2) what do we do to our main tank to prevent similar problems with our other
>fish? Obviously if it is a tumour then it is most probably a genetic
>problem, however I have heard that dropsy can be contagious. All other fish
>at the moment are looking healthy. We do 25% water changes once a week and
>dechlorinate the water we put in. They are on a mixed diet of tropical fish
>flake and frozen "live" food. Also, about once every two weeks they get a
>treat of fresh brine shrimp. The tank has a number of live plants in it
>also.
>
>Thanks very much for any advice. Rachel
>