Receding tail fin

[NetMax]

"Nikki Casali" > wrote in message
...
> NetMax wrote:
>
>> "Nikki Casali" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>My black angel fish (lost balance one) suddenly looks like its tail
>>>has had 10mm torn away. Its pectoral fins are fine. I can see that the
>>>height of the dorsal fin has also been shortened. If you compare the 2
>>>photos below, before and after. I had the "before" from months ago
>>>when a CAE left a suck mark on its side. Is this fin rot? Is the water
>>>condition less than optimal?
>>>
>>>http://www.ncasali.demon.co.uk/Fish/Angel.jpg
>>>http://www.ncasali.demon.co.uk/Fish/Angeltorntail.jpg
>>>
>>>Nikki
>>
>>
>>
>> Looks a bit like ammonia burn too. Malnutrition can also cause a
>> similar effect, where the fins turn whitish and the tissue between the
>> rays recede. If the fish is eating well, and the water parameters are
>> good (and not too acidic), then I would treat for fin rot, though fin
>> rot is normally associated with bad water parameters (?). Sorry I
>> wasn't more help. Seek other advice too.
>
> Netmax,
>
> I just sat in front of my aquarium for 5 minutes checking for anything
> untoward. All my fish seem fine except one Otto that is swimming up and
> down, obsessively. Checked the water parameters: ammonia 0.6ppm,
> nitrite 0.0ppm, pH 7.25. Last week I had an air block in my filter
> causing it to produce lots of noise but very, very little flow. That
> will have killed the biological filtration. I forget to check the water
> parameters afterwards. The plants mass to fish mass has go to be
> something like 10 to 1. I presumed the plants would have taken up the
> slack. I don't know if the ammonia levels rocketed immediately after.
> But if you think the tail rot looks like ammonia burns, maybe, but all
> the other fish seem physically healthy. The nitrite level is 0. Could
> that mean that the ammonia levels are on the ramp up and not the down?
> For ammonia burns, what level do you need? Scary to think!
>
> Nikki


Doesn't make much sense to me. Ammonia should be easily consumed by that
plant ratio, and the ammonia-eating bacteria usually set up faster than
the nitrite eaters (and to have an Oto buzzing around relatively
oblivious!). Ammonia burns are usually associated with the higher levels
obtained in transport.

Perhaps that filter pumped in a lot of anaerobic bacteria toxifying the
water? In any case, very clean water usually clears up fin rot, but
there are also medications for it (antibiotics and perhaps also
sulpha-based). Lets wait for Elaine's comments. I'm just a hobbyist.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Nikki Casali]

My black angel fish (lost balance one) suddenly looks like its tail has
had 10mm torn away. Its pectoral fins are fine. I can see that the
height of the dorsal fin has also been shortened. If you compare the 2
photos below, before and after. I had the "before" from months ago when
a CAE left a suck mark on its side. Is this fin rot? Is the water
condition less than optimal?

http://www.ncasali.demon.co.uk/Fish/Angel.jpg
http://www.ncasali.demon.co.uk/Fish/Angeltorntail.jpg

Nikki

[NetMax]

"Nikki Casali" > wrote in message
...
> My black angel fish (lost balance one) suddenly looks like its tail has
> had 10mm torn away. Its pectoral fins are fine. I can see that the height
> of the dorsal fin has also been shortened. If you compare the 2 photos
> below, before and after. I had the "before" from months ago when a CAE
> left a suck mark on its side. Is this fin rot? Is the water condition less
> than optimal?
>
> http://www.ncasali.demon.co.uk/Fish/Angel.jpg
> http://www.ncasali.demon.co.uk/Fish/Angeltorntail.jpg
>
> Nikki


Looks a bit like ammonia burn too. Malnutrition can also cause a similar
effect, where the fins turn whitish and the tissue between the rays recede.
If the fish is eating well, and the water parameters are good (and not too
acidic), then I would treat for fin rot, though fin rot is normally
associated with bad water parameters (?). Sorry I wasn't more help. Seek
other advice too.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Nikki Casali]

NetMax wrote:

> "Nikki Casali" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>My black angel fish (lost balance one) suddenly looks like its tail has
>>had 10mm torn away. Its pectoral fins are fine. I can see that the height
>>of the dorsal fin has also been shortened. If you compare the 2 photos
>>below, before and after. I had the "before" from months ago when a CAE
>>left a suck mark on its side. Is this fin rot? Is the water condition less
>>than optimal?
>>
>>http://www.ncasali.demon.co.uk/Fish/Angel.jpg
>>http://www.ncasali.demon.co.uk/Fish/Angeltorntail.jpg
>>
>>Nikki
>
>
>
> Looks a bit like ammonia burn too. Malnutrition can also cause a similar
> effect, where the fins turn whitish and the tissue between the rays recede.
> If the fish is eating well, and the water parameters are good (and not too
> acidic), then I would treat for fin rot, though fin rot is normally
> associated with bad water parameters (?). Sorry I wasn't more help. Seek
> other advice too.

Netmax,

I just sat in front of my aquarium for 5 minutes checking for anything
untoward. All my fish seem fine except one Otto that is swimming up and
down, obsessively. Checked the water parameters: ammonia 0.6ppm, nitrite
0.0ppm, pH 7.25. Last week I had an air block in my filter causing it to
produce lots of noise but very, very little flow. That will have killed
the biological filtration. I forget to check the water parameters
afterwards. The plants mass to fish mass has go to be something like 10
to 1. I presumed the plants would have taken up the slack. I don't know
if the ammonia levels rocketed immediately after. But if you think the
tail rot looks like ammonia burns, maybe, but all the other fish seem
physically healthy. The nitrite level is 0. Could that mean that the
ammonia levels are on the ramp up and not the down? For ammonia burns,
what level do you need? Scary to think!

Nikki

[Elaine T]

NetMax wrote:
> "Nikki Casali" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>NetMax wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"Nikki Casali" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>
>>>>My black angel fish (lost balance one) suddenly looks like its tail
>>>>has had 10mm torn away. Its pectoral fins are fine. I can see that the
>>>>height of the dorsal fin has also been shortened. If you compare the 2
>>>>photos below, before and after. I had the "before" from months ago
>>>>when a CAE left a suck mark on its side. Is this fin rot? Is the water
>>>>condition less than optimal?
>>>>
>>>>http://www.ncasali.demon.co.uk/Fish/Angel.jpg
>>>>http://www.ncasali.demon.co.uk/Fish/Angeltorntail.jpg
>>>>
>>>>Nikki
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Looks a bit like ammonia burn too. Malnutrition can also cause a
>>>similar effect, where the fins turn whitish and the tissue between the
>>>rays recede. If the fish is eating well, and the water parameters are
>>>good (and not too acidic), then I would treat for fin rot, though fin
>>>rot is normally associated with bad water parameters (?). Sorry I
>>>wasn't more help. Seek other advice too.
>>
>>Netmax,
>>
>>I just sat in front of my aquarium for 5 minutes checking for anything
>>untoward. All my fish seem fine except one Otto that is swimming up and
>>down, obsessively. Checked the water parameters: ammonia 0.6ppm,
>>nitrite 0.0ppm, pH 7.25. Last week I had an air block in my filter
>>causing it to produce lots of noise but very, very little flow. That
>>will have killed the biological filtration. I forget to check the water
>>parameters afterwards. The plants mass to fish mass has go to be
>>something like 10 to 1. I presumed the plants would have taken up the
>>slack. I don't know if the ammonia levels rocketed immediately after.
>>But if you think the tail rot looks like ammonia burns, maybe, but all
>>the other fish seem physically healthy. The nitrite level is 0. Could
>>that mean that the ammonia levels are on the ramp up and not the down?
>>For ammonia burns, what level do you need? Scary to think!
>>
>>Nikki
>
>
>
> Doesn't make much sense to me. Ammonia should be easily consumed by that
> plant ratio, and the ammonia-eating bacteria usually set up faster than
> the nitrite eaters (and to have an Oto buzzing around relatively
> oblivious!). Ammonia burns are usually associated with the higher levels
> obtained in transport.
>
> Perhaps that filter pumped in a lot of anaerobic bacteria toxifying the
> water? In any case, very clean water usually clears up fin rot, but
> there are also medications for it (antibiotics and perhaps also
> sulpha-based). Lets wait for Elaine's comments. I'm just a hobbyist.

ROFL! What do I know?...I just like to see myself type.

NetMax is on target as usual. Your filter very well could have gone
anaerobic. Another thing that could have happened is a gradual ammonia
buildup from the poor flow through the filter. Angels are pretty
sensitive to tank conditions.

Very clean water is what I usually use for finrot too. I think your
current 0.6 ppm of ammonia is a bit worrisome above pH 7 and that your
oto could be showing escape behavior. Can you add more CO2 safely and
lower the pH? That will help detoxify the ammonia. I'd dose a bit of
potash and make sure there's adequate phosphate so the plants are really
growing well.

As for the finrot, it almost looks bacterial to me because of how
whitish it is. Clean water still may work, but I did have an angel that
required antibiotics in a hospital tank for similar looking damage. The
good news is that a bit of finrot won't kill a fish, so you have plenty
of time to try the clean water approach. Watch for the tissue between
the rays to start growing back, the fin to go back to clear, and the
spikey appearance to heal over as signs of recovery.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Nikki Casali]

Elaine T wrote:
> NetMax wrote:
>
>> "Nikki Casali" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>> NetMax wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> "Nikki Casali" > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> My black angel fish (lost balance one) suddenly looks like its tail
>>>>> has had 10mm torn away. Its pectoral fins are fine. I can see that
>>>>> the height of the dorsal fin has also been shortened. If you
>>>>> compare the 2 photos below, before and after. I had the "before"
>>>>> from months ago when a CAE left a suck mark on its side. Is this
>>>>> fin rot? Is the water condition less than optimal?
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.ncasali.demon.co.uk/Fish/Angel.jpg
>>>>> http://www.ncasali.demon.co.uk/Fish/Angeltorntail.jpg
>>>>>
>>>>> Nikki
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Looks a bit like ammonia burn too. Malnutrition can also cause a
>>>> similar effect, where the fins turn whitish and the tissue between
>>>> the rays recede. If the fish is eating well, and the water
>>>> parameters are good (and not too acidic), then I would treat for fin
>>>> rot, though fin rot is normally associated with bad water parameters
>>>> (?). Sorry I wasn't more help. Seek other advice too.
>>>
>>>
>>> Netmax,
>>>
>>> I just sat in front of my aquarium for 5 minutes checking for
>>> anything untoward. All my fish seem fine except one Otto that is
>>> swimming up and down, obsessively. Checked the water parameters:
>>> ammonia 0.6ppm, nitrite 0.0ppm, pH 7.25. Last week I had an air block
>>> in my filter causing it to produce lots of noise but very, very
>>> little flow. That will have killed the biological filtration. I
>>> forget to check the water parameters afterwards. The plants mass to
>>> fish mass has go to be something like 10 to 1. I presumed the plants
>>> would have taken up the slack. I don't know if the ammonia levels
>>> rocketed immediately after. But if you think the tail rot looks like
>>> ammonia burns, maybe, but all the other fish seem physically healthy.
>>> The nitrite level is 0. Could that mean that the ammonia levels are
>>> on the ramp up and not the down? For ammonia burns, what level do you
>>> need? Scary to think!
>>>
>>> Nikki
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Doesn't make much sense to me. Ammonia should be easily consumed by
>> that plant ratio, and the ammonia-eating bacteria usually set up
>> faster than the nitrite eaters (and to have an Oto buzzing around
>> relatively oblivious!). Ammonia burns are usually associated with the
>> higher levels obtained in transport.
>>
>> Perhaps that filter pumped in a lot of anaerobic bacteria toxifying
>> the water? In any case, very clean water usually clears up fin rot,
>> but there are also medications for it (antibiotics and perhaps also
>> sulpha-based). Lets wait for Elaine's comments. I'm just a hobbyist.
>
>
> ROFL! What do I know?...I just like to see myself type.
>
> NetMax is on target as usual. Your filter very well could have gone
> anaerobic. Another thing that could have happened is a gradual ammonia
> buildup from the poor flow through the filter. Angels are pretty
> sensitive to tank conditions.
>
> Very clean water is what I usually use for finrot too. I think your
> current 0.6 ppm of ammonia is a bit worrisome above pH 7 and that your
> oto could be showing escape behavior. Can you add more CO2 safely and
> lower the pH? That will help detoxify the ammonia. I'd dose a bit of
> potash and make sure there's adequate phosphate so the plants are really
> growing well.
>
> As for the finrot, it almost looks bacterial to me because of how
> whitish it is. Clean water still may work, but I did have an angel that
> required antibiotics in a hospital tank for similar looking damage. The
> good news is that a bit of finrot won't kill a fish, so you have plenty
> of time to try the clean water approach. Watch for the tissue between
> the rays to start growing back, the fin to go back to clear, and the
> spikey appearance to heal over as signs of recovery.

Damn fool me. I meant 0.06ppm for ammonia. If it was 0.6 I'd be running
around like a headless chicken trying to lower it. The air lock arose
because my CO2 needle valve decided to pump out loads of CO2. It was a
cold day...That's what it does. That's fine, the pH controller cuts
that off when the correct pH is reached. Not this time. There were more
CO2 bubbles than the external filter could dissolve in time. I bubble
into the intake, you see. An air lock formed and cut off the flow. Yet
more CO2 bubbled into the intake because the controller registered a
high pH and the CO2 wasn't being dissolved. By the time I unblocked the
filter there must have been a huge amount of CO2 in there. The pH
dropped by 0.15 within 20 minutes from the backlog immediately being
dissolved. The water exiting the outflow tube must have been like fizzy
water! And I bet the biological filter didn't much like that.

I'll keep a check on the angel's tail. If it gets worse I'll add
anti-bacterial. BTW, what does toxic water consist of produced by
anaerobic bacteria? Would the plants have consumed that eagerly?.. I
think my plants averted a disaster really without my knowing about it.

Nikki

[Elaine T]

Nikki Casali wrote:

> Damn fool me. I meant 0.06ppm for ammonia. If it was 0.6 I'd be running
> around like a headless chicken trying to lower it. The air lock arose
> because my CO2 needle valve decided to pump out loads of CO2. It was a
> cold day...That's what it does. That's fine, the pH controller cuts
> that off when the correct pH is reached. Not this time. There were more
> CO2 bubbles than the external filter could dissolve in time. I bubble
> into the intake, you see. An air lock formed and cut off the flow. Yet
> more CO2 bubbled into the intake because the controller registered a
> high pH and the CO2 wasn't being dissolved. By the time I unblocked the
> filter there must have been a huge amount of CO2 in there. The pH
> dropped by 0.15 within 20 minutes from the backlog immediately being
> dissolved. The water exiting the outflow tube must have been like fizzy
> water! And I bet the biological filter didn't much like that.
>
> I'll keep a check on the angel's tail. If it gets worse I'll add
> anti-bacterial. BTW, what does toxic water consist of produced by
> anaerobic bacteria? Would the plants have consumed that eagerly?.. I
> think my plants averted a disaster really without my knowing about it.
>
> Nikki
>
Whew. 0.06 ppm makes more sense. You probably "strangled" your filter
bacteria with CO2 and the tank is taking a mini-cycle. Toxic water from
a filter gone anaerobic can include H2S. I've had problems with it in a
planted tank in the past so no, plants don't detoxify it. pH stress and
temporary high CO2 could have stressed your angel too. Plants will help
a lot with nitrites and ammonia in a mini-cycle, of course.

The best thing to when a filter has been without oxygen for more than a
couple hours for any reason is to take it off the tank and rinse the
media before turning it back on (or restoring full flow in your case).

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com