smoky water

[Charles Shapiro]

I am having a problem with my 100 gallon tank. It has 2 Fluval 404's in it.
One with just Biomax and foam, the other with Biomax, foam and carbon. I
also have to air power filters (round/black with air lines providing the
power). I was told the Foam in the Fluvals is too big to grab the small
particles.

The person I got the tank from said he never had a smoky/cloudy issue with
it. We both live in the same city, now he did have a water conditioner
(knetico) and a reverse osmosis system where I do not. It only had 1
filter, I added the 2nd Fluval as a backup in case the one failed.

The tank is and has been smoky since I started it up about 2 months ago. I
probably added fish too quick and right now have about 35 fish. community,
platty's, mollys, a few catfish and assorted tetras. I just use the basic
conditioner when adding/changing water.

I have been doing weekly water changes until recently and was told to leave
it alone for 2 weeks and it would clear up, but it has not. I can see in the
water current the 'smoke'. The water levels are OK and the fish do not
seemed stressed, but it is ugly to look at.

I have had tanks in the past where after a water change look terrible, but a
day later they are clear as a bell. Not this one. It does not look like
small particles making up the haze, it looks like smoke.

Any ideas appreciated.

...Chip..

[Logic316]

Charles Shapiro wrote:

> The person I got the tank from said he never had a smoky/cloudy issue with
> it. We both live in the same city, now he did have a water conditioner
> (knetico) and a reverse osmosis system where I do not. It only had 1
> filter, I added the 2nd Fluval as a backup in case the one failed.

You most likely have bacterial bloom - an explosive growth of bacteria
caused by an excessive amount of waste nutrients in the water. The extra
waste being excreted by the bunch of new fish you added would account
for this. While the bacteria itself is not harmful to the fish, the
cause of the bloom can be because the stuff rots and pollutes the water.
This problem can be gradually eliminated by frequent partial water
changes (leaving the water unchanged will NOT help). Be careful not to
overfeed the fish, and use a net to scoop up any uneaten food to prevent
feeding the bacteria. If you have live plants, try to remove any
decaying plant matter. Using a gravel cleaner may help. You might also
consider adding a scavenging critter like a snail or a shrimp to
continuously clean up organic debris at the bottom.

If the greyish haze doesn't fade away after a few weeks, then you may
have a chemical imbalance caused by highly alkaline and hard water
caused by too many dissolved minerals. Test the hardness and PH of both
your tank water and tap water to see if this is the case.

- Logic316



"If it's tourist season, does that mean we can shoot them?"

[A Man]

You could put 5-10 clams in it. They will not breed as most of them need
intermediate hosts for the young larval phase. I have some clams in my 10g,
and the water is relatively clear, but it still has some particles floating
in it.

--
Sig: Say no to fixed width HTML tables. They look terrible in most browsers.

[Charles Shapiro]

"Logic316" > wrote in message
...
> Charles Shapiro wrote:
>

> You most likely have bacterial bloom - an explosive growth of bacteria
> caused by an excessive amount of waste nutrients in the water. The extra
> waste being excreted by the bunch of new fish you added would account for
> this. While the bacteria itself is not harmful to the fish, the cause of
> the bloom can be because the stuff rots and pollutes the water. This
> problem can be gradually eliminated by frequent partial water changes
> (leaving the water unchanged will NOT help). Be careful not to overfeed
> the fish, and use a net to scoop up any uneaten food to prevent feeding
> the bacteria. If you have live plants, try to remove any decaying plant
> matter. Using a gravel cleaner may help. You might also consider adding a
> scavenging critter like a snail or a shrimp to continuously clean up
> organic debris at the bottom.

Makes sense. I thought the filters were suppose to take care of this?

No live plants. I do have 7 catfish (different varities), but I guess they
are not doing the job?

I will start the water changes tonight. What is a good amount and how
often? It's 100 gal tank.

>
> If the greyish haze doesn't fade away after a few weeks, then you may have
> a chemical imbalance caused by highly alkaline and hard water caused by
> too many dissolved minerals. Test the hardness and PH of both your tank
> water and tap water to see if this is the case.

I know the PH was a little high, but the guy at the fish store said not to
worry. Don't
have the means right now to test the hardness, but I know here is Vegas, the
water is VERY hard!

Thanks!

...Chip..

[Daniel Morrow]

"Charles Shapiro" > wrote in message
news:1znKe.60370$Eo.37923@fed1read04...
> I am having a problem with my 100 gallon tank. It has 2 Fluval 404's in
it.
> One with just Biomax and foam, the other with Biomax, foam and carbon. I
> also have to air power filters (round/black with air lines providing the
> power). I was told the Foam in the Fluvals is too big to grab the small
> particles.
>
> The person I got the tank from said he never had a smoky/cloudy issue with
> it. We both live in the same city, now he did have a water conditioner
> (knetico) and a reverse osmosis system where I do not. It only had 1
> filter, I added the 2nd Fluval as a backup in case the one failed.
>
> The tank is and has been smoky since I started it up about 2 months ago.
I
> probably added fish too quick and right now have about 35 fish. community,
> platty's, mollys, a few catfish and assorted tetras. I just use the
basic
> conditioner when adding/changing water.
>
> I have been doing weekly water changes until recently and was told to
leave
> it alone for 2 weeks and it would clear up, but it has not. I can see in
the
> water current the 'smoke'. The water levels are OK and the fish do not
> seemed stressed, but it is ugly to look at.
>
> I have had tanks in the past where after a water change look terrible, but
a
> day later they are clear as a bell. Not this one. It does not look like
> small particles making up the haze, it looks like smoke.
>
> Any ideas appreciated.
>

Try some 50 micron pure flo in your filters - it is made by coralife/energy
savers. That fixed my bedroom tank's cloudiness I had before. I don't use
the pure flow 50 micron pads in my silver dollar tank because it doesn't
need it but if I change too much water at once I need to run the vortex (I
would use the pure flow pads in this tank too but don't have a filter with a
media chamber in that tank, so I have been considering getting a fluval msf
404 for the silver dollar tank so I could use the pure flow pads) to clear
the water on an infrequent basis (i.e.. every once in a while). I use the
fluval 104 in my bedroom tank (15 gallons) with the pure flow pads and the
water is crystal clear minus the overabundance of bubbles (I love bubbles)
which break the field of view in that tank but the bubbles are that
important to me. The pure flow filter pads are thin (cloth-like) and tough -
just wash them in a washing machine then a dryer and they are ready for
reuse after using them for a month. The 50 micron size did the trick for me
and they work in any filter with a media chamber (and in some cases
without), and can be cut to size with scissors. Summary - 2 possibilities or
more - use pure flow filter media or use a vortex diatomaceous earth filter.


> ..Chip..
>
>

[Logic316]

Charles Shapiro wrote:
> "Logic316" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Charles Shapiro wrote:
>>
>
>
>>You most likely have bacterial bloom - an explosive growth of bacteria
>>caused by an excessive amount of waste nutrients in the water.>
>
> Makes sense. I thought the filters were suppose to take care of this?

In theory. I don't fully trust them.


> No live plants. I do have 7 catfish (different varities), but I guess they
> are not doing the job?

Catfish are good at sucking up debris, although they too produce waste
at some point.


> I will start the water changes tonight. What is a good amount and how
> often? It's 100 gal tank.

The old tried-and-true rule is to change 20-30% of the water per week. A
tank that is is correctly set up and is not overpopulated actually
doesn't even need a filter when you follow this regimen - it really only
serves the purpose of providing aeration and giving you a little extra
insurance. In your case we're talking about changing 20-30 gallons per
week, which I realize may be a heck of a lot of work, but I personally
just don't believe in relying on a filter alone to keep aquarium water
clean. In all honesty however, I've seen some folks who never change a
drop of their water for YEARS and rely on filtration and performing a
battery of chemical tests and haven't had any problems, so ultimately
it's your choice. But I would do these water changes at least until the
water clears up.


>>If the greyish haze doesn't fade away after a few weeks, then you may have
>>a chemical imbalance caused by highly alkaline and hard water caused by
>>too many dissolved minerals. Test the hardness and PH of both your tank
>>water and tap water to see if this is the case.
>
>
> I know the PH was a little high, but the guy at the fish store said not to
> worry. Don't
> have the means right now to test the hardness, but I know here is Vegas, the
> water is VERY hard!

In which case, you definitely want to do frequent partial water changes.
Dissolved minerals in an aquarium get left behind when water evaporates.
If you simply add more tap water to your tank as it evaporates, you will
end up gradually increasing the concentration of dissolved minerals
causing the water to become even harder :-P

- Logic316



"Thieves respect property. They merely wish the property to become their
property that they may more perfectly respect it."
-- G.K. Chesterton

[Charles Shapiro]

>>
>> Any ideas appreciated.
>>
>
> Try some 50 micron pure flo in your filters - it is made by
> coralife/energy
> savers. That fixed my bedroom tank's cloudiness I had before. I don't use
> the pure flow 50 micron pads in my silver dollar tank because it doesn't
> need it but if I change too much water at once I need to run the vortex (I
> would use the pure flow pads in this tank too but don't have a filter with
> a
> media chamber in that tank, so I have been considering getting a fluval
> msf
> 404 for the silver dollar tank so I could use the pure flow pads) to clear
> the water on an infrequent basis (i.e.. every once in a while). I use the
> fluval 104 in my bedroom tank (15 gallons) with the pure flow pads and the
> water is crystal clear minus the overabundance of bubbles (I love bubbles)
> which break the field of view in that tank but the bubbles are that
> important to me. The pure flow filter pads are thin (cloth-like) and
> tough -
> just wash them in a washing machine then a dryer and they are ready for
> reuse after using them for a month. The 50 micron size did the trick for
> me
> and they work in any filter with a media chamber (and in some cases
> without), and can be cut to size with scissors. Summary - 2 possibilities
> or
> more - use pure flow filter media or use a vortex diatomaceous earth
> filter.
>

I always thought the pads in the Fluval were too large to catch the small
particles and have added 2 air powered filters
to catch the smaller debris. Of course they didn't help this bacterial
bloom.

Where would I get these filters for my Fluval? Is Coralife/energy a company
I can get to on the internet?

Thanks.

...Chip..

[Charles Shapiro]

> Catfish are good at sucking up debris, although they too produce waste at
> some point.

Good point.


>
>> I will start the water changes tonight. What is a good amount and how
>> often? It's 100 gal tank.
>
> The old tried-and-true rule is to change 20-30% of the water per week. A
> tank that is is correctly set up and is not overpopulated actually doesn't
> even need a filter when you follow this regimen - it really only serves
> the purpose of providing aeration and giving you a little extra insurance.
> In your case we're talking about changing 20-30 gallons per week, which I
> realize may be a heck of a lot of work, but I personally just don't
> believe in relying on a filter alone to keep aquarium water clean. In all
> honesty however, I've seen some folks who never change a drop of their
> water for YEARS and rely on filtration and performing a battery of
> chemical tests and haven't had any problems, so ultimately it's your
> choice. But I would do these water changes at least until the water clears
> up.

I did about a 30% water change last night and added Hagen's B-Clear
which according to the www site, is make for bacterial Bloom. I also
stirred up the bottom really well and will continue to do so multiple times
a day
sections at a time to get more of the crap in the water so it can be
filtered out.
The tank looks better this am, after only 8 hours, the bottle says it takes
24-48
to work, so we'll see what happens.

The water changes are not that bad. I started doing it weekly because of
the amount of water that
would need to be changed monthly, and then found a device that allows me to
suction and fill from
the faucet, so I now do these water changes without any buckets back and
forth from the toilet (empty)/bathtub(fill).


>>>If the greyish haze doesn't fade away after a few weeks, then you may
>>>have a chemical imbalance caused by highly alkaline and hard water caused
>>>by too many dissolved minerals. Test the hardness and PH of both your
>>>tank water and tap water to see if this is the case.
>>
>> > I know the PH was a little high, but the guy at the fish store said not
>> > to
>> worry. Don't
>> have the means right now to test the hardness, but I know here is Vegas,
>> the water is VERY hard!
>
> In which case, you definitely want to do frequent partial water changes.
> Dissolved minerals in an aquarium get left behind when water evaporates.
> If you simply add more tap water to your tank as it evaporates, you will
> end up gradually increasing the concentration of dissolved minerals
> causing the water to become even harder :-P

So in addition to the 20-30% a week I want to do MORE water changes what
every other day, say
10%? I don't have a problem with that, I just want it to be clear. I am
expecting ANOTHER
filter today. One for a 110 gallon tank that hangs on the top. I can
return it and might as I realize
it will not fix this problem. I might look into some 50 micron filters for
it and if it fits on the back (only 4.5"
from the tank to the wall). use it..

Thanks for your help.

...Chip..

[Logic316]

Charles Shapiro wrote:

> The water changes are not that bad. I started doing it weekly
because of
> the amount of water that
> would need to be changed monthly, and then found a device that allows me to
> suction and fill from
> the faucet, so I now do these water changes without any buckets back and
> forth from the toilet (empty)/bathtub(fill).

Filling a tank directly from the faucet is risky due to massive levels
of chlorine or chloramine in most tap water, so you might want to run a
chemical test on it. Most folks first neutralize the chlorine/chloramine
in a separate container before adding it to a tank, but I suppose you
can get away with adding a neutralizer directly to the tank just before
you pour the new water in, and then test the tank water afterwards to
make sure you used enough.


> So in addition to the 20-30% a week I want to do MORE water changes what
> every other day, say
> 10%?

40% should be OK. But too much more than that might upset the biological
balance of the tank.

- Logic316



"If people were required to *know* all the laws, and not just to
obey them, the government would be overthrown tomorrow."

[Daniel Morrow]

"Charles Shapiro" > wrote in message
news:4KHKe.192$ct5.118@fed1read04...
> >>
> >> Any ideas appreciated.
> >>
> >
> > Try some 50 micron pure flo in your filters - it is made by
> > coralife/energy
> > savers. That fixed my bedroom tank's cloudiness I had before. I don't
use
> > the pure flow 50 micron pads in my silver dollar tank because it doesn't
> > need it but if I change too much water at once I need to run the vortex
(I
> > would use the pure flow pads in this tank too but don't have a filter
with
> > a
> > media chamber in that tank, so I have been considering getting a fluval
> > msf
> > 404 for the silver dollar tank so I could use the pure flow pads) to
clear
> > the water on an infrequent basis (i.e.. every once in a while). I use
the
> > fluval 104 in my bedroom tank (15 gallons) with the pure flow pads and
the
> > water is crystal clear minus the overabundance of bubbles (I love
bubbles)
> > which break the field of view in that tank but the bubbles are that
> > important to me. The pure flow filter pads are thin (cloth-like) and
> > tough -
> > just wash them in a washing machine then a dryer and they are ready for
> > reuse after using them for a month. The 50 micron size did the trick for
> > me
> > and they work in any filter with a media chamber (and in some cases
> > without), and can be cut to size with scissors. Summary - 2
possibilities
> > or
> > more - use pure flow filter media or use a vortex diatomaceous earth
> > filter.
> >
>
> I always thought the pads in the Fluval were too large to catch the small
> particles and have added 2 air powered filters
> to catch the smaller debris. Of course they didn't help this bacterial
> bloom.
>
> Where would I get these filters for my Fluval?

http://www.thatpetplace.com is a website you can order it from. If you have
easy access to a lfs give them a call first and then buy it and pick it up
if they have it. It's pretty cheap relatively speaking.

Is Coralife/energy a company

They are the manufacturer. Good luck and later!


> I can get to on the internet?
>
> Thanks.
>
> ..Chip..
>
>

[coolchinchilla]

Logic316 wrote:
>
> Filling a tank directly from the faucet is risky due to massive levels
> of chlorine or chloramine in most tap water, so you might want to run a
> chemical test on it. Most folks first neutralize the chlorine/chloramine
> in a separate container before adding it to a tank, but I suppose you
> can get away with adding a neutralizer directly to the tank just before
> you pour the new water in, and then test the tank water afterwards to
> make sure you used enough.

I have a python and I fill directly from the faucet. It seems to
work fine. I've never read that I should treat the water before
adding it though it makes sense (except for salt water tanks). What
I do is figure out how much water I'm replacing - usually 10
gallons. That comes to 50 drops of dechlorinator. So as I replace
the water I put a few drops in the tap water flow from the python
tube as I am filling the tank. I keep putting in drops until I get
to 50. This serves to dechlorinate as the water is added so I'm
thinking it will neurtralize it just fine.

Still YMMV.
coolchinchilla

[Logic316]

coolchinchilla wrote:

> I have a python and I fill directly from the faucet. It seems to work
> fine. I've never read that I should treat the water before adding it
> though it makes sense (except for salt water tanks). What I do is
> figure out how much water I'm replacing - usually 10 gallons. That
> comes to 50 drops of dechlorinator. So as I replace the water I put a
> few drops in the tap water flow from the python tube as I am filling the
> tank. I keep putting in drops until I get to 50. This serves to
> dechlorinate as the water is added so I'm thinking it will neurtralize
> it just fine.

A reasonable strategy if one has a particularly large tank, because I
guess keeping water in a separate container would then be a lot of work.
Although I suppose some people can keep their tank near a water source
with a 40 gallon plastic garbage can in a nearby closet, and then siphon
the purified water in from that. I would prefer that method if possible,
because in my city the concentration of chlorine is way off the test
chart at somewhere over 5 Parts Per Million. You can even smell the
stuff, it's like a swimming pool, so I'd rather get it out before
letting any of it touch my fish. I just keep a 5 gallon pail of water in
a closet and let it outgas naturally until I'm ready for the water
change, which eliminates the need for using a neutralizer.

- Logic316



"Don't get excited about a tax cut. It's like a mugger giving you back
fare for a taxi."
-- Arnold Glasow

[coolchinchilla]

Logic316 wrote:
> coolchinchilla wrote:
>
>> I have a python and I fill directly from the faucet. It seems to work
>> fine. I've never read that I should treat the water before adding it
>> though it makes sense (except for salt water tanks). What I do is
>> figure out how much water I'm replacing - usually 10 gallons. That
>> comes to 50 drops of dechlorinator. So as I replace the water I put a
>> few drops in the tap water flow from the python tube as I am filling
>> the tank. I keep putting in drops until I get to 50. This serves to
>> dechlorinate as the water is added so I'm thinking it will neurtralize
>> it just fine.
>
>
> A reasonable strategy if one has a particularly large tank, because I
> guess keeping water in a separate container would then be a lot of work.
> Although I suppose some people can keep their tank near a water source
> with a 40 gallon plastic garbage can in a nearby closet, and then siphon
> the purified water in from that. I would prefer that method if possible,
> because in my city the concentration of chlorine is way off the test
> chart at somewhere over 5 Parts Per Million. You can even smell the
> stuff, it's like a swimming pool, so I'd rather get it out before
> letting any of it touch my fish. I just keep a 5 gallon pail of water in
> a closet and let it outgas naturally until I'm ready for the water
> change, which eliminates the need for using a neutralizer.
>
> - Logic316

I like your system, but how do you get the stored water into the
tank? Do you lift the 5 gallon bucket (40 pounds) and pour it in
the tank? Do you use a water pump? Would a siphon work even?

coolchinchilla

[Logic316]

coolchinchilla wrote:

> I like your system, but how do you get the stored water into the tank?
> Do you lift the 5 gallon bucket (40 pounds) and pour it in the tank? Do
> you use a water pump? Would a siphon work even?

I just use a pitcher. A siphon would work fine, but you'd have to be
able to place the bucket higher than the tank to get the water to flow,
maybe on a sturdy nearby shelf or hang it from the ceiling somehow. If
you can't do that, then you can use a hand-operated boat bilge pump -
you only have to pump those 6 times to transfer one gallon of water. If
I had a particularly large tank I'd probably store the changing water in
a big plastic garbage can someplace convenient and use a basement sump
pump with a long length of garden hose from a hardware store. They also
make cheap little electric water pumps just for this purpose:
http://tinyurl.com/9r833

- Logic316


"No taxation without respiration."
-- Rep. Bob Schaffer, R-Colorado, on repeal of the death tax.

[Charles Shapiro]

> You most likely have bacterial bloom - an explosive growth of bacteria
> caused by an excessive amount of waste nutrients in the water. The extra
> waste being excreted by the bunch of new fish you added would account for
> this. While the bacteria itself is not harmful to the fish, the cause of
> the bloom can be because the stuff rots and pollutes the water. This
> problem can be gradually eliminated by frequent partial water changes
> (leaving the water unchanged will NOT help). Be careful not to overfeed
> the fish, and use a net to scoop up any uneaten food to prevent feeding
> the bacteria. If you have live plants, try to remove any decaying plant
> matter. Using a gravel cleaner may help. You might also consider adding a
> scavenging critter like a snail or a shrimp to continuously clean up
> organic debris at the bottom.
>
> If the greyish haze doesn't fade away after a few weeks, then you may have
> a chemical imbalance caused by highly alkaline and hard water caused by
> too many dissolved minerals. Test the hardness and PH of both your tank
> water and tap water to see if this is the case.


Thanks to all that replied to my message.

After treating the tank for bacterial bloom, it's about 95% clear. A few
more water changes and
we should be clear as a bell..

Charles