Fish load

[Lance Lyon]

Hi all,

I currently have a 120 litre tank, stocked with six goldfish (all under 4cm
long) & four catties (all under 6cm long). Any recommendations for how many
others I can add & what species to balance the tank ?

The tank is heavily planted & filtration is supplied by a canister filter
capable of turning over 500 lites per hour (so 4 times the tank capacity
each hour).

Tank temperature runs between 12-18 degrees celsius (depending on the
season, winter at the moment so temp is at the lower end).

cheers,

Lance

--
// http://landover.no-ip.com
Historical Sydney ferries webpages
http://landover.no-ip.com/bbs.html
Classic 8 & 16 bit BBS //

[Elaine T]

Lance Lyon wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I currently have a 120 litre tank, stocked with six goldfish (all under 4cm
> long) & four catties (all under 6cm long). Any recommendations for how many
> others I can add & what species to balance the tank ?
>
> The tank is heavily planted & filtration is supplied by a canister filter
> capable of turning over 500 lites per hour (so 4 times the tank capacity
> each hour).
>
> Tank temperature runs between 12-18 degrees celsius (depending on the
> season, winter at the moment so temp is at the lower end).
>
> cheers,
>
> Lance
>
Your tank is already overstocked. Your goldies will grow to 20 cm or
more and should have at least 40l of water for each adult fish. Comets
and shubunkins grow to 30cm and need 80l of water. I don't know what
"catties" are, but if they grow like goldfish you're going to be finding
homes for a lot of fish in the coming years.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Lance Lyon]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
. ..

> Your tank is already overstocked. Your goldies will grow to 20 cm or more
> and should have at least 40l of water for each adult fish. Comets and
> shubunkins grow to 30cm and need 80l of water. I don't know what
> "catties" are, but if they grow like goldfish you're going to be finding
> homes for a lot of fish in the coming years.

Sure ? 30cm is 12 inches, that's more Koi size! Catties = Bristlenose
Catfish.

cheers,

Lance


--
// http://landover.no-ip.com
Historical Sydney ferries webpages
http://landover.no-ip.com/bbs.html
Classic 8 & 16 bit BBS //

[Billy]

"Lance Lyon" > wrote in message
...

>
> Sure ? 30cm is 12 inches, that's more Koi size! Catties =
> Bristlenose Catfish.
>


I support Elaine's statement. In addition, as the overstocking causes
the water quality to decrease (goldies and similar are rather filthy
creatures) the Catfish will suffer. You're best off finding new homes
for most of those fish, or buying a *very* large tank. Goldfish are
very poorly represented in this society. They need LOTS of room. The
phrase "they won't outgrow a tank" is almost total BS.

[Victor Martinez]

Lance Lyon wrote:
> Sure ? 30cm is 12 inches, that's more Koi size! Catties = Bristlenose

Kois get to be 2 or 3 feet long, actually. I have shubunkins in my pond
that are 3 years old and are about 8 inches long.

--
Victor M. Martinez
Owned and operated by the Fantastic Seven (TM)
Send your spam here:
Email me here:

[Alpha]

"Billy" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Lance Lyon" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>
>> Sure ? 30cm is 12 inches, that's more Koi size! Catties = Bristlenose
>> Catfish.
>>


Yes. You are way overstocked even now.

Goldfish are harder to keep well than most understand, particularly the
ornamental ones. They are very dirty fish and require excellent conditions.

[Lance Lyon]

"Alpha" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Billy" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Lance Lyon" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>
>>> Sure ? 30cm is 12 inches, that's more Koi size! Catties = Bristlenose
>>> Catfish.
>>>
>
>
> Yes. You are way overstocked even now.
>
> Goldfish are harder to keep well than most understand, particularly the
> ornamental ones. They are very dirty fish and require excellent
> conditions.

Well, this tank has been running for just over two years, no problems with
it in that time, all water parameters are normal & all original inhabitants
alive, well & kicking. If there were problems with it being 'overstocked'
(which I sincerely doubt), they would have surfaced long since I reckon.

I get the impression most people believe about 2 fish is all you can put in
a 125 litre tank.....

cheers,

Lance


--
// http://landover.no-ip.com
Historical Sydney ferries webpages
http://landover.no-ip.com/bbs.html
Classic 8 & 16 bit BBS //

[Alpha]

"Lance Lyon" > wrote in message
...
> "Alpha" > wrote in message If there were problems with it
> being 'overstocked' (which I sincerely doubt)

You are wrong.

Just because the live does not mean they live well.

[Lance Lyon]

>> "Alpha" > wrote in message If there were problems with it
>> being 'overstocked' (which I sincerely doubt)
>
> You are wrong.
>
> Just because the live does not mean they live well.
>
>

Mate, I'm not gonna bother to get into an argument with you, the tank & it's
inhabitants are healthy & happy - I've already pointed out in a previous
post that all tank parameters are normal (& have been for close on two
years).

I'm guessing you've not read the post correctly - so let's try again - ten
fish in total, all under 6cm in an 80cmx40cmx40cm (tank is higher than 40cm
but this is what I have it filled to) tank at 125lt cpacity.

I've had one succesful breeding episode about 5 months ago (in mid Summer),
unfortunately the fry got eaten by the catties :-)

Now please tell me again that this is not a 'well' tank! And specify (based
on the evidence presented) why ?

cheers,

Lance


--
// http://landover.no-ip.com
Historical Sydney ferries webpages
http://landover.no-ip.com/bbs.html
Classic 8 & 16 bit BBS //

[Alpha]

You are hopeless. Have you even read anything about carassius auratus?

[Ali Day]

>> Goldfish are harder to keep well than most understand, particularly the
>> ornamental ones. They are very dirty fish and require excellent
>> conditions.
>
> Well, this tank has been running for just over two years, no problems with
> it in that time, all water parameters are normal & all original
> inhabitants alive, well & kicking. If there were problems with it being
> 'overstocked' (which I sincerely doubt), they would have surfaced long
> since I reckon.
>
> I get the impression most people believe about 2 fish is all you can put
> in a 125 litre tank.....


I don't know anything about goldfish, but I would recommend doing a
spreadsheet like this, it takes the usual 1 inch per gallon rule and then I
add a crap multiplier, to see 'roughly' how much space I have in my tank. I
never go anywhere near the 1 inch rule in any of my tanks, but it's a good
start point. This spread sheet also tells you straight away if any of your
main water parameters are outside the recommended for the fish you have.

www.cern.ch/aday/fish_numbers_600L.xls

[Billy]

"Lance Lyon" > wrote in message
...
>
> Mate, I'm not gonna bother to get into an argument with you, the
> tank & it's inhabitants are healthy & happy - I've already pointed
> out in a previous post that all tank parameters are normal (& have
> been for close on two years).
>

You asked for advice, and you received it from people who have
experience. If you choose to dispute it, that's your decision. Your
setup is not sustainable. You are putting your fish in a situation
that will not STAY as stable as it may be now. You can go into a fish
store and see a 30 gallon tank with 100 comets in it, that doesn't
mean it's a good idea, or that it's a long term solution.

If you didn't want the advice, why did you ask? I would urge you to
do some research of your own on goldies, I can guarantee that it will
support the statements made here.

billy

[Logic316]

Lance Lyon wrote:

> Mate, I'm not gonna bother to get into an argument with you, the tank & it's
> inhabitants are healthy & happy - I've already pointed out in a previous
> post that all tank parameters are normal (& have been for close on two
> years).

Hi Lance,
I know you probably think we're just a bunch of over-conservative
nitpickers, but it's been known for well over a century that goldfish
need a *lot* more water than most other species. The Chinese figured
this out through trial and error long before we did. The accepted
rule-of-thumb is that one should provide a minimum of 10 gallons (37.85
liters) of water per goldfish, preferably in a shallow and wide
container rather than a narrow and deep one (surface area is the key).
While it is totally possible that with sufficient water changes and
filtration one can keep the water clean and adequately aerated in an
overstocked tank, you can still have problems that won't be indicated
simply by performing chemical tests on the water. When overcrowded,
goldfish are known to suffer from stress (particularly "competitive
stress" when feeding) that weakens their immune system and makes them
more susceptible to disease, as well as makes them more likely to get
into fights. Disease will also spread much faster in an overcrowded
tank. I know that lots of people break this rule and insist that their
fish live "fine" for years, but there's no way they will even come close
to living their maximum lifespan of 15-20 years or reaching their
maximum growth of 35-40 centimeters. But if you don't care about that,
then there's nothing more we can say. Ultimately they're your fish, so
do what you want with them.

- Logic316


"A multitude of laws in a country is like
a great number of physicians,
a sign of weakness and malady."
-- Voltaire

[NetMax]

"Lance Lyon" > wrote in message
...
> Hi all,
>
> I currently have a 120 litre tank, stocked with six goldfish (all under
> 4cm long) & four catties (all under 6cm long). Any recommendations for how
> many others I can add & what species to balance the tank ?
>
> The tank is heavily planted & filtration is supplied by a canister filter
> capable of turning over 500 lites per hour (so 4 times the tank capacity
> each hour).
>
> Tank temperature runs between 12-18 degrees celsius (depending on the
> season, winter at the moment so temp is at the lower end).
>
> cheers,
>
> Lance


Let's see, (sorry, I think imperial) 30g tank, six GF all under 1-1/2" long,
four Ancistrus about 2" long, 54 to 64F water with x4 filtration and lots of
plants. Sounds like a very attractive tank. I'm not sure if that water is
warm enough for Ancistrus. Typically 22C or 72F is the lowest I've seen.
When the GF get a bit larger, they will try to decimate your live plants.
From a stocking perspective, behaviourally you are probably ok right now,
and if you are not overfeeding and doing your water changes, then
biologically you are ok, and the cold water is helping by maintaining a
higher level of O2 in the water.

It's probably a good time to be asking about this because what the others
have said is correct. If you take into account these fish's eventual
requirements, you are way over-stocked. Your status quo might be ok for the
reasons I mentioned above, but you can expect to need to make some changes
relatively soon. If your GF are comets, then these grow faster and need
longer tanks than the ornamental types, which typically need more open space
and warmer water. You more fully appreciate the requirements of a GF when
you see them as 8" adults. Just one full grown ornamental GF can look like
a sardine in a planted 30g tank ;~).

Don't take this as criticism. I'm always upgrading accommodations as fish
grow larger, and like you, I research my options by getting experienced
opinions.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[lgb]

In article >,
says...
> The accepted
> rule-of-thumb is that one should provide a minimum of 10 gallons (37.85
> liters) of water per goldfish, preferably in a shallow and wide
> container rather than a narrow and deep one (surface area is the key).
>
Since surface area is the key, why not quote it that way? The figure I
used to hear many years ago was 20 sq inches per inch of goldfish.
That's twice what I've seen for tropicals. I suspect that it's only
adequate till the fish get up around 5-6 inches, but that's a guess.

And back then (1950s), I kept goldfish with no filtration and no plants,
just lots of water changes :-).

--
BNSF = Build Now, Seep Forever

[Elaine T]

Lance Lyon wrote:
> "Alpha" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>"Billy" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>>"Lance Lyon" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>
>>>>Sure ? 30cm is 12 inches, that's more Koi size! Catties = Bristlenose
>>>>Catfish.
>>>>
>>
>>
>>Yes. You are way overstocked even now.
>>
>>Goldfish are harder to keep well than most understand, particularly the
>>ornamental ones. They are very dirty fish and require excellent
>>conditions.
>
>
> Well, this tank has been running for just over two years, no problems with
> it in that time, all water parameters are normal & all original inhabitants
> alive, well & kicking. If there were problems with it being 'overstocked'
> (which I sincerely doubt), they would have surfaced long since I reckon.
>
> I get the impression most people believe about 2 fish is all you can put in
> a 125 litre tank.....
>
> cheers,
>
> Lance
>
>
You would get two big, beautiful goldfish in that 125 litre tank. ;-)
I'm actually rather surprised your goldfish are that small after two
years. My shubunkin out in my pond has grown from 3 cm to 6 cm since
spring, and I'm only feeding him once a day. He has about 25 gallons of
water with only a mosquitofish as company and an all-you-can-eat bug,
snail, algae and duckweed buffet. He'll probably be 10 cm by fall.

I'd still stick to growing out your goldfish rather than trying to add
more fish. Big goldfish with flowing fins are beautiful. However,
white cloud minnows love a cold, planted tank with good current and
would fit in well until the goldfish grow large enough to eat them.

Another interesting cold water fish is the weather loach or dojo
(Misgurnus anguillicaudatus / fossilis). They hide a lot, but become
active when the barometric pressure changes. Weather loaches typically
grow to 10-15cm. The only problem with a big loach in a planted tank is
that they can knock the plants out of the gravel as they move around and
root for food. The good news is that they eat snails and would scavenge
any food the goldfish miss (as if goldies miss food!).

Sorry this thread became so contentions. Once you've seen goldfish grow
like crazy in a pond or very large tank, you just don't think about them
the same.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Logic316]

lgb wrote:
> In article >,
> says...
>
>>The accepted
>>rule-of-thumb is that one should provide a minimum of 10 gallons (37.85
>>liters) of water per goldfish, preferably in a shallow and wide
>>container rather than a narrow and deep one (surface area is the key).
>>
>
> Since surface area is the key, why not quote it that way?

I wasn't sure what the minimum dimensions per fish are based on surface
area. But since Lance is using a standard type tank anyway, the 10/gal
per fish rule seemed the most useful one.


The figure I
> used to hear many years ago was 20 sq inches per inch of goldfish.
> That's twice what I've seen for tropicals. I suspect that it's only
> adequate till the fish get up around 5-6 inches, but that's a guess.

The Chinese fish breeders often kept fish in wide but very shallow clay
pans, so that sounds right.


> And back then (1950s), I kept goldfish with no filtration and no plants,
> just lots of water changes :-).

Yup. Sometimes it seems like people didn't own fish before they invented
diaphragm pumps, plastic hoses, and power filters. I have a nice antique
hardcover book published in 1907 that recommends changing one bucket of
water per day in a large tank to provide all the necessary aeration and
cleansing :-)

- Logic316



"If it's tourist season, does that mean we can shoot them?"

[coolchinchilla]

Lance Lyon wrote:

>>Yes. You are way overstocked even now.
>>
>>Goldfish are harder to keep well than most understand, particularly the
>>ornamental ones. They are very dirty fish and require excellent
>>conditions.
>
>
> Well, this tank has been running for just over two years, no problems with
> it in that time, all water parameters are normal & all original inhabitants
> alive, well & kicking. If there were problems with it being 'overstocked'
> (which I sincerely doubt), they would have surfaced long since I reckon.
>
> I get the impression most people believe about 2 fish is all you can put in
> a 125 litre tank.....

LOL. I know someone with a 75 (90?) gallon FW tank with exactly two
angels in it. There are decorations but no live plants. He put the
lights on timers. Has a wet/dry filter in a sump. He even put an
automatic feeder on the tank. He wanted to keep a tank with almost
NO work to it and I think he succeeded. Other than adding some
top-off water and refilling the auto feeder every couple weeks,
there is almost no work involved to this tank. (Maybe some extra
cleaning & water changes every few months.)

coolchinchilla