Stocking Considerations

[Rod Bacon]

I put some plants in last night. Got a good deal on some undersized
java ferns, a handfull of java moss, 3 small cryptos and something else
that I can't remember the name of. I am about to buy my cycling stock,
and am now thinking a handfull of danios may be the best option, as
oppposed to my original platy/swordtail/mollie idea.

Longer term, I'd like suggestions for fish I should consider stocking
in a community environment. I want to have enough of each species so
that they can be happy (in the case of schooling fish). It's a standard
4 foot (200L) tank. Temperature is 25C, hardness is on the higher end
of being soft, around 140ppm. ph is (currently) neutral(ish).

My wife has a soft spot for neons, so I guess a school of around 10
will be in by default. I really like catfish (all varieties), so I'd
like to get at least one species in there, maybe two. Probably some
plain old sucking cats (goldens?) and some plecos?. I also really like
loaches, so clowns are in. Do they exist better with specific minimum
numbers?

As for the rest, I'm pretty open. I don't like angels and am not a huge
barb fan. Some of the other tetra family seem OK. I have a soft spot
for gouramis, especially the blues, tri-spots, golds and dwarf flames.
I don't want anything that's likely to destroy my plants, as I want to
have a real go at maintaining a growing, planted tank this time,
instead of giving up and resorting to plastic.

Any suggestions would be most welcomed.

[NetMax]

"Rod Bacon" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>I put some plants in last night. Got a good deal on some undersized
> java ferns, a handfull of java moss, 3 small cryptos and something else
> that I can't remember the name of. I am about to buy my cycling stock,
> and am now thinking a handfull of danios may be the best option, as
> oppposed to my original platy/swordtail/mollie idea.
>
> Longer term, I'd like suggestions for fish I should consider stocking
> in a community environment. I want to have enough of each species so
> that they can be happy (in the case of schooling fish). It's a standard
> 4 foot (200L) tank. Temperature is 25C, hardness is on the higher end
> of being soft, around 140ppm. ph is (currently) neutral(ish).

OK, so this is currently a plant-only tank 7dgH (it would be interesting
to know the buffer kH, but I suspect that it will be a non-issue). From
the description, sounds like a narrow tank (12-16") which makes
decoration for depth more of a challenge. In that set-up, I like to use
tall chunks of driftwood and tall thin plants for the back.

> My wife has a soft spot for neons, so I guess a school of around 10
> will be in by default.

Initially (3-4 weeks or until the tank has been cycled) you won't have
any fish (or very few), but after that, you can put a LOT of Neons in
that tank.

> I really like catfish (all varieties), so I'd
> like to get at least one species in there, maybe two.

Sounds reasonable, avoiding the carnivorous types of catfish of course
(for the sake of the Neons). Many catfish come from the same rivers the
Neons live in and co-habitate very well with them.

> Probably some
> plain old sucking cats (goldens?) and some plecos?. I also really like
> loaches, so clowns are in. Do they exist better with specific minimum
> numbers?

For golden sucking cats (Chinese algae eater) you now visit Asia, but
this particular fish is not recommended for many setups. In a planted
tank with small fish, its worst characteristics are minimized, but they
still get about 5" long (and sometimes a little mean tempered at that
size).

Plecos also come from the Amazon basin (perhaps a little more downstream
from the Neons), and while some are gigantic (or only 16" long like the
common pleco), there are also many smaller ones very suitable for your
set-up (ie: ancistrus).

Clowns and any other shoaling fishes (tetras, corys, loaches, barbs etc),
seem to do best in groups of about 5 to 7 (opinions will vary as this is
a very observation-driven hobby, and fish can exhibit non-typical
behavior as well). Note that Clowns grow quite large, but usually slowly
(you have been forewarned).

> As for the rest, I'm pretty open. I don't like angels and am not a huge
> barb fan.

Behaviourally, many barbs are a riot in process ;~), and Angelfish can be
quite cunning and thoughful, as different species have evolved very
different talents.

> Some of the other tetra family seem OK. I have a soft spot
> for gouramis, especially the blues, tri-spots, golds and dwarf flames.

In descending order of aggression, golds, blues, trispot and most
passive, dwarfs. With Neons, I would have some reservations with the
larger gouramis. While they don't have the agressive reputation of many
cichlids, they can be very close (and many cichlids are much more passive
than golds). Some other interesting characters, Pearl gourami (large but
passive), Chocolate gouramis (small passive, and unique), apistogrammas
(somewhat agressive with each other, but small, both varies by species
though) and livebearers (who like your hard-ish water and will reward you
with many babies).

> I don't want anything that's likely to destroy my plants, as I want to
> have a real go at maintaining a growing, planted tank this time,
> instead of giving up and resorting to plastic.

Then topics such as lighting will be of interest, perhaps even CO2. If
you want any useful links, just ask (I also have a links page on my site,
which I haven't visited in over a year). I have a green thumb myself
(for algae ;~), so I've used a mix of real and silk plants. Both have
pros/cons, but I generally always like to have some real plants in every
tank.

> Any suggestions would be most welcomed.

Cycle the tank, stock with the juvenile size of everything you want,
adding about 10-15% to the numbers for losses over the years. Hobbyists
know when to adjust these numbers (up for sensitive fish, down as you
have more experience etc). The last sensitive fish I bought were Monos,
so I bought a dozen to be sure I would be left with a shoal. Two years
later, I still have a dozen eating me out of the house, demanding a much
bigger tank. So much for the best plans ;~).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Rod Bacon]

Thanks for the fantastic post. Most informative. I've been doing a lot
of reading over the past 6 weeks, and am only now setting things up,
armed with as much solid data as possible.

With regard to plants, I take your point about lighting and CO2 (the
latter I'm trying to avoid), although I'd be happy with plant survival,
let alone flourisment (is that even a word?). I know my mighting is a
little on the dark side at the moment (40W), so I've chosen plants
specifically suitable. Hopefully within a month I'll have my new hood
and lighting in place.

I've read a litttle more today, specifically on individual species that
interest me, and I think I'll be steering clear of larger Gouramis for
the very reasons you sited. One thing I found today that surprised me
is that someone commented on their clown loaches' love for destroying
plants, particularly new shoots.

Has anyone here found the same problem?

[Mary Burns]

"Rod Bacon" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Thanks for the fantastic post. Most informative. I've been doing a lot
> of reading over the past 6 weeks, and am only now setting things up,
> armed with as much solid data as possible.
>
> With regard to plants, I take your point about lighting and CO2 (the
> latter I'm trying to avoid), although I'd be happy with plant survival,
> let alone flourisment (is that even a word?). I know my mighting is a
> little on the dark side at the moment (40W), so I've chosen plants
> specifically suitable. Hopefully within a month I'll have my new hood
> and lighting in place.
>
> I've read a litttle more today, specifically on individual species that
> interest me, and I think I'll be steering clear of larger Gouramis for
> the very reasons you sited. One thing I found today that surprised me
> is that someone commented on their clown loaches' love for destroying
> plants, particularly new shoots.
>
> Has anyone here found the same problem?
>
My clowns do not destroy plants, it's only the ones that aren't anchored
properly which go flying as they play boisterously. If you add your plants
during your cycling period, they should have rooted enough to stay in the
substrate, as clowns should be added to a fully cycled tank (mature) as they
are very sensitive to water params. With thought to their needs, they are a
great addition to a tank. Mary

[Gill Passman]

"Mary Burns" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Rod Bacon" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> > Thanks for the fantastic post. Most informative. I've been doing a lot
> > of reading over the past 6 weeks, and am only now setting things up,
> > armed with as much solid data as possible.
> >
> > With regard to plants, I take your point about lighting and CO2 (the
> > latter I'm trying to avoid), although I'd be happy with plant survival,
> > let alone flourisment (is that even a word?). I know my mighting is a
> > little on the dark side at the moment (40W), so I've chosen plants
> > specifically suitable. Hopefully within a month I'll have my new hood
> > and lighting in place.
> >
> > I've read a litttle more today, specifically on individual species that
> > interest me, and I think I'll be steering clear of larger Gouramis for
> > the very reasons you sited. One thing I found today that surprised me
> > is that someone commented on their clown loaches' love for destroying
> > plants, particularly new shoots.
> >
> > Has anyone here found the same problem?
> >
> My clowns do not destroy plants, it's only the ones that aren't anchored
> properly which go flying as they play boisterously. If you add your plants
> during your cycling period, they should have rooted enough to stay in the
> substrate, as clowns should be added to a fully cycled tank (mature) as
they
> are very sensitive to water params. With thought to their needs, they are
a
> great addition to a tank. Mary
>
>
My Clowns never destroyed plants either. I did however give them cucumber to
chew on. Maybe the Clowns in question weren't getting enough veggie?

Gill

[lgb]

In article om>,
says...
> Thanks for the fantastic post. Most informative. I've been doing a lot
> of reading over the past 6 weeks, and am only now setting things up,
> armed with as much solid data as possible.
>
Netmax made some good suggestions on fish, but I'd suggest that you take
a look at rainbowfish as well. There are at least 3 species that don't
get over 2-3" and a shoal of 6 or 7 would be gorgeous. With a 4' tank
you could even accomodate some of the larger species, but probably not
in sufficient numbers unless it was a species tank.

--
BNSF = Build Now, Seep Forever

[danny]

well its nice to hear your starting up your tank
you weres saying about neons, i would definately get some because they
are beautiful fish, i woul wait though for about 4 weeks befor putting
those in because they are sensative

i would put some fancy guppies in they turn out beautiful
but if you dont want an overcrowded tank i would only just by one
gender (male are the most colourful)

i wouldnt mix swordtails with guppies though because they can get
agressive and bite the guppys tails

some phantom tetras they are quite good these are shoaling fish so i
would buy about 5 or 6

glowlight tetras and empora tetras they are beautiful fish i would buy
about 5 of each

angels get 2 of them

golden sucking loach are brill they get almost all of the algea apart
from the corners
( i usually wipe corners with a cloth)

dont know much about clown loaches or plants
ive got artificial ones
plants that is

[Elaine T]

Rod Bacon wrote:
> I put some plants in last night. Got a good deal on some undersized
> java ferns, a handfull of java moss, 3 small cryptos and something else
> that I can't remember the name of. I am about to buy my cycling stock,
> and am now thinking a handfull of danios may be the best option, as
> oppposed to my original platy/swordtail/mollie idea.
>
> Longer term, I'd like suggestions for fish I should consider stocking
> in a community environment. I want to have enough of each species so
> that they can be happy (in the case of schooling fish). It's a standard
> 4 foot (200L) tank. Temperature is 25C, hardness is on the higher end
> of being soft, around 140ppm. ph is (currently) neutral(ish).

Everybody's favorite game - Fantasy Fishtank! ;-)

> My wife has a soft spot for neons, so I guess a school of around 10
> will be in by default. I really like catfish (all varieties), so I'd
> like to get at least one species in there, maybe two. Probably some
> plain old sucking cats (goldens?) and some plecos?. I also really like
> loaches, so clowns are in. Do they exist better with specific minimum
> numbers?

Neons are fun - I prefer cardinals myself. They're bigger, easier to
keep, and have more color since the red runs the full body. I can
hardly contemplate a planted tank without cardinals or neons. BTW,
believe it or not I've cycled with cardinals - just get a few extra like
NetMax said.

Clown loaches are great for planted tanks. They don't eat plants, but
will tend to uproot newly planted stem plants. You need to use weights,
plastic discs, or something to hold the plants down. I keep clowns in
trios, but everyone here says the more the better. Solo clowns will
often waste away and die.

Corydoras catfish are fun to watch, don't grow large and devour neons,
and are easy to keep. Rule of thumb - avoid all catfish with long
whiskers if you have small fish. If you're adding a lot of light, you
will probably want Otocinclus, Siamese Algae Eaters, and an Ancistrus
spp. as your algae crew.

> As for the rest, I'm pretty open. I don't like angels and am not a huge
> barb fan. Some of the other tetra family seem OK. I have a soft spot
> for gouramis, especially the blues, tri-spots, golds and dwarf flames.
> I don't want anything that's likely to destroy my plants, as I want to
> have a real go at maintaining a growing, planted tank this time,
> instead of giving up and resorting to plastic.
>
> Any suggestions would be most welcomed.
>
Small gouramis are fine with plants. I've kept tri-spot/gold/blue (all
Trichogaster trichopterus), pearl gouramis, and dwarf flame gouramis in
communities. Avoid kissers as they get too big and start trashing and
eating your plants. I do like barbs, so I often get gold and cherry
barbs for plant tanks. Rosy barbs nibble on plants, but they also eat
some problem algaes so I have mixed feelings about them. Tiger barbs
are way too nippy for communities.

As for livebearers, I think platies and guppies are ideal for plant
tanks. Mollies will eat algae and the protein skin on the surface, but
they do better in hard water or with some salt. If you're lucky, you'll
get a litter or two that you can raise in your tank conditions and then
they're sturdy. Swordtails are a little bit aggressive for my taste but
YMMV.

Other non-barb fish I like for planted communities

- Harlequin rasboras
- Rainbowfish - featherfins are my personal fave
- Congo tetras - these are spectacular fish in a 4 foot tank with a dark
backdrop
- Cichlids - I love cichlid colors and behaviors so I go for rams,
apistos, M. altispinosas, angels, keyholes, festivums, or even discus.
- Tetras - rummy nose, lemon, glowlight, emporer, black neon,
head-and-tail light, and von rios are all peaceful.

So...my Fantasy Fishtank contains fish from all over the world.
Stocking is on the high side because I'd light it with about 160W of
light and use CO2. The rapidly growing plants would make it easy to
stock and maintain lots of fish in good health.

3 clown loaches - bottom
10 cardinal tetras - lower to mid
1 blue gourami - top
3 sunset wag platies - all over
2 SAE - all over
6 Otocinclus - hiding
1 Ancistrus - hiding
5 Congo tetras - top, active
2 M. altispinosa - bottom

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Elaine T]

Rod Bacon wrote:
> Thanks for the fantastic post. Most informative. I've been doing a lot
> of reading over the past 6 weeks, and am only now setting things up,
> armed with as much solid data as possible.
>
> With regard to plants, I take your point about lighting and CO2 (the
> latter I'm trying to avoid), although I'd be happy with plant survival,
> let alone flourisment (is that even a word?). I know my mighting is a
> little on the dark side at the moment (40W), so I've chosen plants
> specifically suitable. Hopefully within a month I'll have my new hood
> and lighting in place.

You CANNOT avoid a carbon source for the plants with bright light. To
do otherwise is to start your own personal algae farm. Consider
Flourish Excel if CO2 makes you nervous.

Your plants will flourish and out-compete algae if you give them what
they need. All it really takes is bright light, a carbon source, and
adequate fertilizer.

> I've read a litttle more today, specifically on individual species that
> interest me, and I think I'll be steering clear of larger Gouramis for
> the very reasons you sited. One thing I found today that surprised me
> is that someone commented on their clown loaches' love for destroying
> plants, particularly new shoots.
>
> Has anyone here found the same problem?

I've had clown loaches in planted tanks with no trouble other than the
uprooting I mentioned earlier.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Rod Bacon]

It's not specifically the CO2 that makes me nervous, rather the price
tag.

I am running a couple of ventrulis off my internal filters, which pump
their output down through my RUGF. This gives me good O2 levels through
my substrate, and hopefully will create an ideal place for aerobic
bacteria to flourish.

I was considering the cheap DIY CO2 (yeast mixture in a coke bottle)
option, plugged into my ventrulis. This way, I'd be pumping O2 and CO2
up through the gravel, albeit in smaller quantities (smaller than a CO2
tank at least).

[Rod Bacon]

I just had another brainwave! I brew my own beer at home... maybe I
could pump the CO2 from my beer through the aquarium? The only problem
is the other chemicals that may be present (sulphur?).

This is probably the wrong forum to ask this, but with the
water/sugar/yeast method of CO2 production, can you drink the bottle
contents after 2 weeks?

:-)

[Elaine T]

Rod Bacon wrote:
> I just had another brainwave! I brew my own beer at home... maybe I
> could pump the CO2 from my beer through the aquarium? The only problem
> is the other chemicals that may be present (sulphur?).
>
> This is probably the wrong forum to ask this, but with the
> water/sugar/yeast method of CO2 production, can you drink the bottle
> contents after 2 weeks?
>
> :-)
>
I've done homebrew mead hooked up to a fishtank. It works like a charm.
Honey mead is easier than yeast because the fermentation lasts a
couple of months. You've stumbled onto one of the great combinations of
hobbies!

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[sophie]

Elaine T said this:
> Rod Bacon wrote:
>> I just had another brainwave! I brew my own beer at home... maybe I
>> could pump the CO2 from my beer through the aquarium? The only problem
>> is the other chemicals that may be present (sulphur?).
>>
>> This is probably the wrong forum to ask this, but with the
>> water/sugar/yeast method of CO2 production, can you drink the bottle
>> contents after 2 weeks?
>>
>>> -)
>>
> I've done homebrew mead hooked up to a fishtank. It works like a charm.
> Honey mead is easier than yeast because the fermentation lasts a
> couple of months. You've stumbled onto one of the great combinations of
> hobbies!

as long as you keep an eye on things... that initial fermentation stage (at
least with fruit wine) can send vast quantities of yeasty froth bubbling up
through the airlock if you get it wrong. (and I wouldn't be keen on drinking
the water sugar yeast mixture after it had fermented out - flavourless
sub-wine-strength alcohol would be pretty disgusting I think).

but thr only reason I don;t do the home-brew thing with the fishtanks is
because they're in the children's rooms and they're young and nosy.
--
sophie

[Elaine T]

sophie wrote:
> Elaine T said this:
>
>>Rod Bacon wrote:
>>
>>>I just had another brainwave! I brew my own beer at home... maybe I
>>>could pump the CO2 from my beer through the aquarium? The only problem
>>>is the other chemicals that may be present (sulphur?).
>>>
>>>This is probably the wrong forum to ask this, but with the
>>>water/sugar/yeast method of CO2 production, can you drink the bottle
>>>contents after 2 weeks?
>>>
>>>
>>>>-)
>>>
>>I've done homebrew mead hooked up to a fishtank. It works like a charm.
>> Honey mead is easier than yeast because the fermentation lasts a
>>couple of months. You've stumbled onto one of the great combinations of
>>hobbies!
>
>
> as long as you keep an eye on things... that initial fermentation stage (at
> least with fruit wine) can send vast quantities of yeasty froth bubbling up
> through the airlock if you get it wrong. (and I wouldn't be keen on drinking
> the water sugar yeast mixture after it had fermented out - flavourless
> sub-wine-strength alcohol would be pretty disgusting I think).

Very true. The blowoff stage with beer can get a bit exciting too. I'd
wait past the first couple days of fermentation with anything containing
a fruit or grains.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Dr Engelbert Buxbaum]

Rod Bacon wrote:

> I put some plants in last night. Got a good deal on some undersized
> java ferns, a handfull of java moss, 3 small cryptos and something else
> that I can't remember the name of.

Some floating plants like Azolla, Riccia or Lemna would be nice, keep
them in a corner to provide cover for baby fish.
>
> Longer term, I'd like suggestions for fish I should consider stocking
> in a community environment. I want to have enough of each species so
> that they can be happy (in the case of schooling fish). It's a standard
> 4 foot (200L) tank. Temperature is 25C, hardness is on the higher end
> of being soft, around 140ppm. ph is (currently) neutral(ish).

That would be about 8 degrees of hardness, but is that total or
carbonate hardness? Even in the latter case you should not have problems
with the fishes you mentioned, certainly if you add some peat to the
filter.
>
> My wife has a soft spot for neons, so I guess a school of around 10
> will be in by default.

You could combine the neons with cardinal tetras (blue/black/silver,
about the same size as neons), that looks pretty. Other small South
American black-water fish should also be possible.

> I really like catfish (all varieties), so I'd
> like to get at least one species in there, maybe two. Probably some
> plain old sucking cats (goldens?) and some plecos?. I also really like
> loaches, so clowns are in. Do they exist better with specific minimum
> numbers?

Perhaps corys or otos? Both are herd animals and do best in groups of at
least 5 or 6. Peaceful, social, always busy. Remember to feed vegetables
like zucchini, carrots and the like.

In a 200 l tank you could start keeping clown loaches, but they grow up
to 30 cm long (over as many years) and also should be kept in groups of
6 or so. So eventually this would have to become a species tank, and a
crowded one. However, there are some smaller Botia species (up to about
12 cm, e.g. B. striata, B. kubotai or B. lohachatu) which show similar
behaviour and are also quite pretty. Btw, I have never seen loaches
cause problems with life plants.

> As for the rest, I'm pretty open. Any suggestions would be most welcomed.

You could keep a male Beta splendens (or B. smaragdina) with a few
females in that tank, despite their common name "fighting fish" they are
very peaceful in a community tank, as long as you don't add more than 1
male. Indeed, in a 200 l tank you might even get away with that, but I
wouldn't chance it.

Also suitable would be the American-flag fish Jordanella floridae,
either males only or one male with a couple of females. Pretty,
peaceful, active algae eater and, like the Beta, interesting to observe
when caring for its young. Unfortunately, they can be difficult to get
in local shops.

You may also be interested in some non-vertebrates like shrimps
(Caridina ssp. or Neocaridina ssp.), or snails (e.g. apple snails).

[sophie]

Dr Engelbert Buxbaum said this:


<snip>

> In a 200 l tank you could start keeping clown loaches, but they grow up
> to 30 cm long (over as many years) and also should be kept in groups of
> 6 or so. So eventually this would have to become a species tank, and a
> crowded one. However, there are some smaller Botia species (up to about
> 12 cm, e.g. B. striata, B. kubotai or B. lohachatu) which show similar
> behaviour and are also quite pretty.

B striata stay smaller and are much, much less likely to be nippy. (am I
showing a bias here?)
--
sophie

[Gill Passman]

"sophie" > wrote in message
al.net...
> Dr Engelbert Buxbaum said this:
>
>
> <snip>
>
> > In a 200 l tank you could start keeping clown loaches, but they grow up
> > to 30 cm long (over as many years) and also should be kept in groups of
> > 6 or so. So eventually this would have to become a species tank, and a
> > crowded one. However, there are some smaller Botia species (up to about
> > 12 cm, e.g. B. striata, B. kubotai or B. lohachatu) which show similar
> > behaviour and are also quite pretty.
>
> B striata stay smaller and are much, much less likely to be nippy. (am I
> showing a bias here?)
> --
> sophie
>
Yes <grin>

I'm a Clown Loach person and tend to be of the at least 3 and probably 6 (my
preferred number) persuasion. I think I'm showing a bias here as well :-)

That being said I have got some smaller tanks to fill so I'll check out the
B striata....

Gill

[Rod Bacon]

I just googled Botia Striata and I must say I like what I see. The only
problem is, I can't say that I've ever seen one in any fish shop I've
visited (here in Melbourne, Australia).

If anyone can point me to a supplier over here, I'd be grateful.