Ready for Discus?

[Mr. Zee]

Hello: I entered the hobby about 6 months ago after a 15 year break.
Have a 55 gallon tank. Canister filter and Biowheel on the back. 6.7 pH,
3-4 KH, 0 Ammonia ant Nitrite, less then 20ppm Nitrate. 3 to 4 x weekly
water changes fm tap (The tap water is nice and soft.) Live plants, temp
82F. I have 4 cardinals 1 pair of Blue rams 10 'black' neon's, 3 cordy cats
and one small pelco. Lost a cardinal or two but that's it. (The rams
spawned twice but I think they ate the eggs!) I'm dying to try my hand at
discus. I really don't want to overstock the tank but as I understand it I
should get about 5 or so that they won't bully each other. I'm sure this
would be fine when their small but won't they outgrow the tank? Also, I
heard they need a 'bare bottom'. I don't have that. I really don't want to
mess with live foods. Would frozen beefheatr and all the great dry stuff
they have now do?

Any comments, suggestions and advise is welcome. I want to try my
hand with these fish but don't want to give up the live plants. Thanks very
much!

[Elaine T]

Mr. Zee wrote:
> Hello: I entered the hobby about 6 months ago after a 15 year break.
> Have a 55 gallon tank. Canister filter and Biowheel on the back. 6.7 pH,
> 3-4 KH, 0 Ammonia ant Nitrite, less then 20ppm Nitrate. 3 to 4 x weekly
> water changes fm tap (The tap water is nice and soft.) Live plants, temp
> 82F. I have 4 cardinals 1 pair of Blue rams 10 'black' neon's, 3 cordy cats
> and one small pelco. Lost a cardinal or two but that's it. (The rams
> spawned twice but I think they ate the eggs!) I'm dying to try my hand at
> discus. I really don't want to overstock the tank but as I understand it I
> should get about 5 or so that they won't bully each other. I'm sure this
> would be fine when their small but won't they outgrow the tank? Also, I
> heard they need a 'bare bottom'. I don't have that. I really don't want to
> mess with live foods. Would frozen beefheatr and all the great dry stuff
> they have now do?
>
> Any comments, suggestions and advise is welcome. I want to try my
> hand with these fish but don't want to give up the live plants. Thanks very
> much!
>
>
You sound ready. Here's a great article by the very talented George
Booth about discus in planted tanks.
http://aquaticconcepts.thekrib.com/Articles/PAM_Discus.htm

As for foods, consider frozen bloodworms, frozen glassworms, and
prepared foods like Spectrum pellets. After reading Untergasser's
classic disease book, I'm not convinced that dead cow is a good food for
fish. ;-)

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Derek W. Benson]

On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 07:14:10 GMT, Elaine T >
wrote:

>As for foods, consider frozen bloodworms, frozen glassworms, and
>prepared foods like Spectrum pellets. After reading Untergasser's
>classic disease book, I'm not convinced that dead cow is a good food for
>fish. ;-)

Hmm... presumably you're talking about beef heart. What does
Untergasser say about it?

-Derek

[Elaine T]

Derek W. Benson wrote:
> On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 07:14:10 GMT, Elaine T >
> wrote:
>
>
>>As for foods, consider frozen bloodworms, frozen glassworms, and
>>prepared foods like Spectrum pellets. After reading Untergasser's
>>classic disease book, I'm not convinced that dead cow is a good food for
>>fish. ;-)
>
>
> Hmm... presumably you're talking about beef heart. What does
> Untergasser say about it?
>
> -Derek

Yes, I was talking about beef heart. I went back and looked. From p.
115 of "Handbook of Fish Diseases" He says "beef-heart (sic) alone can
never be adequate as food but must be fed along with supplemental greens
and occasionally with vitamins."

He goes on to talk about fatty degeneration of the liver from food with
too many carbohydrates and fats and a lack of choline and vitamins. He
also believes that hole-in-the-head is caused by vitamin D deficiency,
which is lacking in one-sided diets. I looked it up and beef heart is
high in choline, but not in vitamins.

Finally, he says that "Gastroenteritis (also called gastrointestinal
inflammation) may result from spoiled feed, a vitamin deficiency, or a
one-sided diet of meat (such as beef heart). Likewise, a diet of an
easily digestible food (such as white worms) with high nutritive value
or a one-sided diet of carbohydrates, fats, or proteins can lead to the
condition."

So, common sense rules. Vary the diet of your fish and be sure to feed
plenty of vitamins. ;-)

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Gill Passman]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
m...
> Derek W. Benson wrote:
> > On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 07:14:10 GMT, Elaine T >
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >>As for foods, consider frozen bloodworms, frozen glassworms, and
> >>prepared foods like Spectrum pellets. After reading Untergasser's
> >>classic disease book, I'm not convinced that dead cow is a good food for
> >>fish. ;-)
> >
> >
> > Hmm... presumably you're talking about beef heart. What does
> > Untergasser say about it?
> >
> > -Derek
>
> Yes, I was talking about beef heart. I went back and looked. From p.
> 115 of "Handbook of Fish Diseases" He says "beef-heart (sic) alone can
> never be adequate as food but must be fed along with supplemental greens
> and occasionally with vitamins."
>
> He goes on to talk about fatty degeneration of the liver from food with
> too many carbohydrates and fats and a lack of choline and vitamins. He
> also believes that hole-in-the-head is caused by vitamin D deficiency,
> which is lacking in one-sided diets. I looked it up and beef heart is
> high in choline, but not in vitamins.
>
> Finally, he says that "Gastroenteritis (also called gastrointestinal
> inflammation) may result from spoiled feed, a vitamin deficiency, or a
> one-sided diet of meat (such as beef heart). Likewise, a diet of an
> easily digestible food (such as white worms) with high nutritive value
> or a one-sided diet of carbohydrates, fats, or proteins can lead to the
> condition."
>
> So, common sense rules. Vary the diet of your fish and be sure to feed
> plenty of vitamins. ;-)
>
> --
> Elaine T __
> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

When I first read your comments on beef heart as an unsuitable feed I
immediately thought "Mad Cow Disease" (BST) - maybe a case of English
paranoia :-)

Gill

[Elaine T]

Gill Passman wrote:

> When I first read your comments on beef heart as an unsuitable feed I
> immediately thought "Mad Cow Disease" (BST) - maybe a case of English
> paranoia :-)
>
> Gill
>
>
Heh. Gotta watch out for those raving, mad discus. Next think you
know, beef heart fed discus will have dempseys and oscars cowering in
the corner. ;-)

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[bassett]

When I read it, feeding dead cow to discus. I was wondering just how big
your Discus where.
bassett


"Elaine T" > wrote in message
. ..
> Gill Passman wrote:
>
>> When I first read your comments on beef heart as an unsuitable feed I
>> immediately thought "Mad Cow Disease" (BST) - maybe a case of English
>> paranoia :-)
>>
>> Gill
>>
>>
> Heh. Gotta watch out for those raving, mad discus. Next think you know,
> beef heart fed discus will have dempseys and oscars cowering in the
> corner. ;-)
>
> --
> Elaine T __
> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Elaine T]

bassett wrote:
> When I read it, feeding dead cow to discus. I was wondering just how big
> your Discus where.
> bassett
*grin* Good one! I always have visions of a cow falling into the water
and pirhanas eating it when I think of how someone came up with the idea
of feeding beef heart to fish. It has always seemed like an odd fish
food to me.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[NetMax]

"Mr. Zee" > wrote in message
k.net...
> Hello: I entered the hobby about 6 months ago after a 15 year break.
> Have a 55 gallon tank. Canister filter and Biowheel on the back. 6.7
> pH, 3-4 KH, 0 Ammonia ant Nitrite, less then 20ppm Nitrate. 3 to 4 x
> weekly water changes fm tap (The tap water is nice and soft.) Live
> plants, temp 82F. I have 4 cardinals 1 pair of Blue rams 10 'black'
> neon's, 3 cordy cats and one small pelco. Lost a cardinal or two but
> that's it. (The rams spawned twice but I think they ate the eggs!) I'm
> dying to try my hand at discus. I really don't want to overstock the tank
> but as I understand it I should get about 5 or so that they won't bully
> each other.

Your tank sounds excellent for Discus. Five would be an optimal number, but
you might have good luck with 4 instead. Alternately, go with 5 and if they
all do well, you might not mind upgrading their tank eventually.

> I'm sure this would be fine when their small but won't they outgrow the
> tank? Also, I heard they need a 'bare bottom'. I don't have that.

Generally, bare bottom tanks are used in situations where you want to keep
the tank very clean, such as quarantine tanks (no Ich cysts hiding in the
gravel) and in grow-out tanks (no rotting organic matter to add to your NO3
and DOCs, and for visibility to maintain better control over the fry's
progress).

Because of the investment and some breeding peculiarities, Discus breeders
use a few extra tricks, and to a greater extreme. In an effort to keep the
water very clean (zero hormones, DOCs and NO3) they sometimes use massive
water change routines, so bare-bottom tanks help them achieve this. Do not
confuse specialty techniques with requirements. Discus have the same
requirements as Angelfish, but depending on parentage can be a bit more
particular about the water's hardness and about what they are being fed.

> I really don't want to mess with live foods. Would frozen beefheatr and
> all the great dry stuff they have now do?

Yes, for any fish you want to provide a variety of foods to meet their
protein, mineral and vitamin requirements. If you can get the Discus to eat
it, flake food is a good staple to build on. From there, freeze-dried
tubifex or the frozen products (beefheart, shrimp, mysis, bloodworms or
custom Discus preparations) are added. There are a number of live cultures
which are not hard to maintain as well. It just depends on your threshold.
My routine was to feed dried foods in the morning (freeze-dried, pellets,
flakes etc) and wet in the evenings (frozen foods or live). If you try to
spoil your Discus, they will have you trained in short order ;~), however
their culinary tastes tend to go to very rich foods (Discus delight,
bloodworms, beefheart) which lack fibre (which I think accounts for 50% of a
wild fish's diet) and other nutrients. Typically I keep about 5 or 6 foods
on hand, a few dry (flake, algae wafers and pellets) and some frozen
(shrimp, daphnia & bloodworms) and this takes care of 99.8% of the various
fish in my care.

> Any comments, suggestions and advise is welcome. I want to try my
> hand with these fish but don't want to give up the live plants. Thanks
> very much!

Because Discus don't eat plants, and they don't dig in the substrate, and
they don't pull them for visibility (they use them for cover), they are
considered plant-friendly fish. hth
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Mr. Zee]

Thanks VERY much all for the tips and help. I'm about to go and buy some
this week. I guess I'll try 5 little babies. Thanks again!





"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
> "Mr. Zee" > wrote in message
> k.net...
>> Hello: I entered the hobby about 6 months ago after a 15 year break.
>> Have a 55 gallon tank. Canister filter and Biowheel on the back. 6.7
>> pH, 3-4 KH, 0 Ammonia ant Nitrite, less then 20ppm Nitrate. 3 to 4 x
>> weekly water changes fm tap (The tap water is nice and soft.) Live
>> plants, temp 82F. I have 4 cardinals 1 pair of Blue rams 10 'black'
>> neon's, 3 cordy cats and one small pelco. Lost a cardinal or two but
>> that's it. (The rams spawned twice but I think they ate the eggs!) I'm
>> dying to try my hand at discus. I really don't want to overstock the
>> tank but as I understand it I should get about 5 or so that they won't
>> bully each other.
>
> Your tank sounds excellent for Discus. Five would be an optimal number,
> but you might have good luck with 4 instead. Alternately, go with 5 and
> if they all do well, you might not mind upgrading their tank eventually.
>
>> I'm sure this would be fine when their small but won't they outgrow the
>> tank? Also, I heard they need a 'bare bottom'. I don't have that.
>
> Generally, bare bottom tanks are used in situations where you want to keep
> the tank very clean, such as quarantine tanks (no Ich cysts hiding in the
> gravel) and in grow-out tanks (no rotting organic matter to add to your
> NO3 and DOCs, and for visibility to maintain better control over the fry's
> progress).
>
> Because of the investment and some breeding peculiarities, Discus breeders
> use a few extra tricks, and to a greater extreme. In an effort to keep
> the water very clean (zero hormones, DOCs and NO3) they sometimes use
> massive water change routines, so bare-bottom tanks help them achieve
> this. Do not confuse specialty techniques with requirements. Discus have
> the same requirements as Angelfish, but depending on parentage can be a
> bit more particular about the water's hardness and about what they are
> being fed.
>
>> I really don't want to mess with live foods. Would frozen beefheatr and
>> all the great dry stuff they have now do?
>
> Yes, for any fish you want to provide a variety of foods to meet their
> protein, mineral and vitamin requirements. If you can get the Discus to
> eat it, flake food is a good staple to build on. From there, freeze-dried
> tubifex or the frozen products (beefheart, shrimp, mysis, bloodworms or
> custom Discus preparations) are added. There are a number of live
> cultures which are not hard to maintain as well. It just depends on your
> threshold. My routine was to feed dried foods in the morning
> (freeze-dried, pellets, flakes etc) and wet in the evenings (frozen foods
> or live). If you try to spoil your Discus, they will have you trained in
> short order ;~), however their culinary tastes tend to go to very rich
> foods (Discus delight, bloodworms, beefheart) which lack fibre (which I
> think accounts for 50% of a wild fish's diet) and other nutrients.
> Typically I keep about 5 or 6 foods on hand, a few dry (flake, algae
> wafers and pellets) and some frozen (shrimp, daphnia & bloodworms) and
> this takes care of 99.8% of the various fish in my care.
>
>> Any comments, suggestions and advise is welcome. I want to try my
>> hand with these fish but don't want to give up the live plants. Thanks
>> very much!
>
> Because Discus don't eat plants, and they don't dig in the substrate, and
> they don't pull them for visibility (they use them for cover), they are
> considered plant-friendly fish. hth
> --
> www.NetMax.tk
>