Extremely shy clown loaches now have Ich

[Gill Passman]

I've been checking them daily for the last 13 days whenever they show
themselves and there was no problem. Then today, when I start to think about
moving them into the Community tank I spotted it. Just one or two spots this
morning and treated imediately with Protozin and higher temps. One of them
tonight is totally covered - I'm not sure whether he will make it. Been
through Ich too many times to ask for advice on treatment but have some
observations where any comments would be welcome:-

1. The tank is newly set up. I used media from another disease free tank and
water/substrate from a disease free tank.

2. I have never seen any signs of Ich at the LFS where I have been going for
years before getting into this hobby and purchasing from for 12 months.

3. Everything in the tank came from this LFS including the companion Neons
that show no sign of the disease

4. The Clowns have always been nervy and very shy

5. The tank, despite my best efforts, went through a mini cycle - nitrites
have been below 0.1 but still a very, very pale pink

6. They are in a quieter area of the house to the other tanks

7. Obviously the Clowns are stressed somehow - my money would be on the
water quality and the lack of other fish activity in the tank to put them at
ease.

What I don't understand is how the Ich got there in the first place. I
observe the Clowns in the LFS at least once a week and have never seen a
problem.

So does this bear out the fact that Ich is always present in water and it is
a combination of factors and stress that makes Clown Loaches prone to Ich
and that the spores are present in all water?

Very, very fed up. Here I go again on the Ich treatment :-(

Gill

[Alpha]

"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
> I've been checking them daily for the last 13 days whenever they show
> themselves and there was no problem. Then today, when I start to think
> about
> moving them into the Community tank I spotted it. Just one or two spots
> this
> morning and treated imediately with Protozin and higher temps. One of them
> tonight is totally covered - I'm not sure whether he will make it. Been
> through Ich too many times to ask for advice on treatment but have some
> observations where any comments would be welcome:-
>
> 1. The tank is newly set up. I used media from another disease free tank
> and
> water/substrate from a disease free tank.
>
> 2. I have never seen any signs of Ich at the LFS where I have been going
> for
> years before getting into this hobby and purchasing from for 12 months.
>
> 3. Everything in the tank came from this LFS including the companion Neons
> that show no sign of the disease
>
> 4. The Clowns have always been nervy and very shy
>
> 5. The tank, despite my best efforts, went through a mini cycle - nitrites
> have been below 0.1 but still a very, very pale pink
>
> 6. They are in a quieter area of the house to the other tanks
>
> 7. Obviously the Clowns are stressed somehow - my money would be on the
> water quality and the lack of other fish activity in the tank to put them
> at
> ease.
>
> What I don't understand is how the Ich got there in the first place. I
> observe the Clowns in the LFS at least once a week and have never seen a
> problem.
>
> So does this bear out the fact that Ich is always present in water and it
> is
> a combination of factors and stress that makes Clown Loaches prone to Ich
> and that the spores are present in all water?
>
> Very, very fed up. Here I go again on the Ich treatment :-(
>
> Gill
>
>

1. Ich is present in almost all aquarium water.
2. Clown Loaches are notorious to stress out at any number of things and
then ich attacks.
3. I am worried that the caution to not use Protozin if momoryids are
present also should apply to all scaleless fish.

[Gill Passman]

"Alpha" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
> .. .
> > I've been checking them daily for the last 13 days whenever they show
> > themselves and there was no problem. Then today, when I start to think
> > about
> > moving them into the Community tank I spotted it. Just one or two spots
> > this
> > morning and treated imediately with Protozin and higher temps. One of
them
> > tonight is totally covered - I'm not sure whether he will make it. Been
> > through Ich too many times to ask for advice on treatment but have some
> > observations where any comments would be welcome:-
> >
> > 1. The tank is newly set up. I used media from another disease free tank
> > and
> > water/substrate from a disease free tank.
> >
> > 2. I have never seen any signs of Ich at the LFS where I have been going
> > for
> > years before getting into this hobby and purchasing from for 12 months.
> >
> > 3. Everything in the tank came from this LFS including the companion
Neons
> > that show no sign of the disease
> >
> > 4. The Clowns have always been nervy and very shy
> >
> > 5. The tank, despite my best efforts, went through a mini cycle -
nitrites
> > have been below 0.1 but still a very, very pale pink
> >
> > 6. They are in a quieter area of the house to the other tanks
> >
> > 7. Obviously the Clowns are stressed somehow - my money would be on the
> > water quality and the lack of other fish activity in the tank to put
them
> > at
> > ease.
> >
> > What I don't understand is how the Ich got there in the first place. I
> > observe the Clowns in the LFS at least once a week and have never seen a
> > problem.
> >
> > So does this bear out the fact that Ich is always present in water and
it
> > is
> > a combination of factors and stress that makes Clown Loaches prone to
Ich
> > and that the spores are present in all water?
> >
> > Very, very fed up. Here I go again on the Ich treatment :-(
> >
> > Gill
> >
> >
>
> 1. Ich is present in almost all aquarium water.
> 2. Clown Loaches are notorious to stress out at any number of things and
> then ich attacks.
> 3. I am worried that the caution to not use Protozin if momoryids are
> present also should apply to all scaleless fish.
>
>
Used it before with Clowns at full dosage without any probs - on my poor
departed troupe (filter while on hols prob). I'm hoping it will work this
time but from experience know I might be in for a long fight to keep them
alive, I never lost before but I don't want to tempt fate and I know a lot
of others before me have lost the fight against Ich...

I'm not really sure of the alternatives, totally taking on board what you
are saying....if the Ich takes control then the fish will die....if there is
no effective meds then the fish will die....so we try what we can based on
reading, education and experience

So really you are saying that the stress factors were there (moving, lack of
suitable dither fish for security and the water quality probs) - I kinda
guessed that but now I am stuck and cannot move them somewhere they will be
happier until the ich is clear and maybe the ich won't clear until they are
happier....one thing for sure is I can't risk the rest of my
fish.....sometimes I hate all this

Gill

[Elaine T]

Alpha wrote:
> "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
> .. .
>
>>I've been checking them daily for the last 13 days whenever they show
>>themselves and there was no problem. Then today, when I start to think
>>about
>>moving them into the Community tank I spotted it. Just one or two spots
>>this
>>morning and treated imediately with Protozin and higher temps. One of them
>>tonight is totally covered - I'm not sure whether he will make it. Been
>>through Ich too many times to ask for advice on treatment but have some
>>observations where any comments would be welcome:-
>>
>>1. The tank is newly set up. I used media from another disease free tank
>>and
>>water/substrate from a disease free tank.
>>
>>2. I have never seen any signs of Ich at the LFS where I have been going
>>for
>>years before getting into this hobby and purchasing from for 12 months.
>>
>>3. Everything in the tank came from this LFS including the companion Neons
>>that show no sign of the disease
>>
>>4. The Clowns have always been nervy and very shy
>>
>>5. The tank, despite my best efforts, went through a mini cycle - nitrites
>>have been below 0.1 but still a very, very pale pink
>>
>>6. They are in a quieter area of the house to the other tanks
>>
>>7. Obviously the Clowns are stressed somehow - my money would be on the
>>water quality and the lack of other fish activity in the tank to put them
>>at
>>ease.
>>
>>What I don't understand is how the Ich got there in the first place. I
>>observe the Clowns in the LFS at least once a week and have never seen a
>>problem.
>>
>>So does this bear out the fact that Ich is always present in water and it
>>is
>>a combination of factors and stress that makes Clown Loaches prone to Ich
>>and that the spores are present in all water?
>>
>>Very, very fed up. Here I go again on the Ich treatment :-(
>>
>>Gill
>>
>>
>
>
> 1. Ich is present in almost all aquarium water.

Do you have a reference for this statment? Both my "Manual of Fish
Health" and Untergasser's "Handbook of Fish Diseases" state otherwise.
Everything about ich that I've read says that the parasite only lives
free in the water for a day or so, and then must find a fish to complete
its lifecycle.

The only plausible mechanism I've ever seen for "silent" ich residing in
tanks is invisible, mild gill infections. The suggestion is that mostly
immune fish in some tanks have ich in their gills and occasionally shed
parasites.

In Gill's case, either the apparantly healthy tetras or the loaches
could have had a few parasites in the gills to start the infection.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Alpha]

I probably read this years ago at a site that produces Maracide. However,
my quickest search finds:

http://www.nunnie.com/ick.html

[Elaine T]

Alpha wrote:
> I probably read this years ago at a site that produces Maracide. However,
> my quickest search finds:
>
> http://www.nunnie.com/ick.html
>
>
So you consider someone with Madonna music on their website an expert?!?
This person doesn't even know how to spell ich (short for
Ichthyophthirius) and admits to almost killing her tire tread eel by
dumping salt on it.

Stick to people with DVM or Ph.D. after their names for more reliable
advice.

Most experts agree that ich has a latent phase ON FISH. That means that
any fish purchased from a store or any of your pets can possibly carry
it. The general consensus among veteranarians and fish pathologists is
that ich does not live in water or on aquarium surfaces for long periods
of time.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Daniel Morrow]

Mid posted.


"Elaine T" > wrote in message
m...
> Alpha wrote:
> > I probably read this years ago at a site that produces Maracide.
However,
> > my quickest search finds:
> >
> > http://www.nunnie.com/ick.html
> >
> >
> So you consider someone with Madonna music on their website an expert?!?
> This person doesn't even know how to spell ich (short for
> Ichthyophthirius) and admits to almost killing her tire tread eel by
> dumping salt on it.
>
> Stick to people with DVM or Ph.D. after their names for more reliable
> advice.
>
> Most experts agree that ich has a latent phase ON FISH. That means that
> any fish purchased from a store or any of your pets can possibly carry
> it. The general consensus among veteranarians and fish pathologists is
> that ich does not live in water or on aquarium surfaces for long periods
> of time.

Just thought I would also throw in the fact that diatomaceous earth filters
(at the very least the vortex line - at least almost all of them) will
filter ich out of the water. Hmmm - sorry gill if I make it sound like you
have money growing off your trees in your area of the planet but a vortex
MIGHT help you out with your clowns. It would be so cool if it would help -
experts.....?


>
> --
> Elaine T __
> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Alpha]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
m...
> Alpha wrote:
>> I probably read this years ago at a site that produces Maracide.
>> However, my quickest search finds:
>>
>> http://www.nunnie.com/ick.html
>>
>>
> So you consider someone with Madonna music on their website an expert?!?
> This person doesn't even know how to spell ich (short for
> Ichthyophthirius) and admits to almost killing her tire tread eel by
> dumping salt on it.
>
> Stick to people with DVM or Ph.D. after their names for more reliable
> advice.


Do you have a doctorate...I do.

[Alpha]

"Alpha" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Elaine T" > wrote in message
> m...
>> Alpha wrote:
>>> I probably read this years ago at a site that produces Maracide.
>>> However, my quickest search finds:
>>>
>>> http://www.nunnie.com/ick.html
>>>
>>>
>> So you consider someone with Madonna music on their website an expert?!?
>> This person doesn't even know how to spell ich (short for
>> Ichthyophthirius) and admits to almost killing her tire tread eel by
>> dumping salt on it.
>>
>> Stick to people with DVM or Ph.D. after their names for more reliable
>> advice.
>
>
> Do you have a doctorate...I do.
>
>

Frankly, I indicated where I probably read this. I am not an ichthyologist
(and from what I have read, neither are you). I resent your attitude in
spades.

[Elaine T]

Alpha wrote:
> "Alpha" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>"Elaine T" > wrote in message
m...
>>
>>>Alpha wrote:
>>>
>>>>I probably read this years ago at a site that produces Maracide.
>>>>However, my quickest search finds:
>>>>
>>>>http://www.nunnie.com/ick.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>So you consider someone with Madonna music on their website an expert?!?
>>>This person doesn't even know how to spell ich (short for
>>>Ichthyophthirius) and admits to almost killing her tire tread eel by
>>>dumping salt on it.
>>>
>>>Stick to people with DVM or Ph.D. after their names for more reliable
>>>advice.
>>
>>
>>Do you have a doctorate...I do.
>>
>>
>
>
> Frankly, I indicated where I probably read this. I am not an ichthyologist
> (and from what I have read, neither are you). I resent your attitude in
> spades.
>
>
>
So go somewhere other than usenet. *shrug* Maybe a nice, moderated
phpBB2 would suit you better. While pursuing your doctorate, you should
have learned to discriminate good from bad references. You put that
silly web page up as a reference - not me. I don't think you even read it.

As for my own credentials, I have a masters degree in neuroscience and
many years of laboratory experience, which means I can understand almost
anything I choose to read in biology with only modest background
reading. I've learned a fair amount of organic chemistry as well so
fishtank chemistry comes easily. My doctorate in the loosely related
field of bioinformatics will be finished in about two more years, at
which point I will probably hold more diplomas than you do. But it's
only paper.

More importantly, during my tenure as a graduate student I learned how
to find reliable information. For aquarium info, I tend to stick to
aquaculture articles, the peer-reviewed biological literature on fish
physiology, books by ichthyologists and vets, and information from
expert aquarists like Takashi Amano, Tom Barr, and George Booth. I also
have a bookshelf full of carefully chosen aquarium books. You might be
surprised how much work goes into some of my posts here because I enjoy
reading the literature and articles.

In addition to being a hobbyist, I worked in an outstanding fish store
where I learned rather a lot about fishkeeping. I've seen pathogens
under a microscope, learned how to diagnose and treat tanks full of sick
fish, and how to help folks with all sorts of problems. Wrong answers
to customers were NOT tolerated, so all the staff rapidly became expert
or vanished.

If you post things like "ich is in the water of most aquaria," as fact
and I have read otherwise from good sources, I will ask for references.
There are mostly beginners here and everyone posting and answering
questions with statements that they claim to be facts rather than
personal experiences has a responsibility to provide correct information
to the best of their knowledge. Even worse, mistakes are becoming
harder and harder to fix because of archives like Google News. People
do exactly what you say to their tanks, and sometimes their fish live or
die because of it.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Mary Burns]

"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
> I've been checking them daily for the last 13 days whenever they show
> themselves and there was no problem. Then today, when I start to think
> about
> moving them into the Community tank I spotted it. Just one or two spots
> this
> morning and treated imediately with Protozin and higher temps. One of them
> tonight is totally covered - I'm not sure whether he will make it. Been
> through Ich too many times to ask for advice on treatment but have some
> observations where any comments would be welcome:-
>
> 1. The tank is newly set up. I used media from another disease free tank
> and
> water/substrate from a disease free tank.
>
> 2. I have never seen any signs of Ich at the LFS where I have been going
> for
> years before getting into this hobby and purchasing from for 12 months.
>
> 3. Everything in the tank came from this LFS including the companion Neons
> that show no sign of the disease
>
> 4. The Clowns have always been nervy and very shy
>
> 5. The tank, despite my best efforts, went through a mini cycle - nitrites
> have been below 0.1 but still a very, very pale pink
>
> 6. They are in a quieter area of the house to the other tanks
>
> 7. Obviously the Clowns are stressed somehow - my money would be on the
> water quality and the lack of other fish activity in the tank to put them
> at
> ease.
>
> What I don't understand is how the Ich got there in the first place. I
> observe the Clowns in the LFS at least once a week and have never seen a
> problem.
>
> So does this bear out the fact that Ich is always present in water and it
> is
> a combination of factors and stress that makes Clown Loaches prone to Ich
> and that the spores are present in all water?
>
> Very, very fed up. Here I go again on the Ich treatment :-(
>
> Gill
>
>Doesn't anyone here use Ridich? I got it from an online uk supplier,
>arrived next day. It is very safe for clowns. I tried protozin, which cured
>the tetra who had it first, and watched the clowns get it one by one during
>the course. After running carbon I changed to Ridich, and each day they got
>better. It is used every day, plus 3 more days after last spot. All my
>clowns survived, baby platies born during treatment are now 8 weeks old and
>looking good. The 65g had 5 clowns then, platies, 5 tetra and 3 c.julli.
>Nobody had any adverse reaction, and everyone survived.I treated tank at
>6.30am as it was in June with long summer days and my clowns were all up
>early. I wanted to treat them before they had a nap in an ornament. They 5
>clowns are now a happy group of 8. I din't quarantine the last 3 small
>clowns, weighing up it was better for them to be with other clowns than
>alone in 10g. They had come from a tank in LFS with over 50 clowns, and
>figured 3 with another 5 was the best bet in this case. Mary

[Gill Passman]

"Mary Burns" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
> .. .
> > I've been checking them daily for the last 13 days whenever they show
> > themselves and there was no problem. Then today, when I start to think
> > about
> > moving them into the Community tank I spotted it. Just one or two spots
> > this
> > morning and treated imediately with Protozin and higher temps. One of
them
> > tonight is totally covered - I'm not sure whether he will make it. Been
> > through Ich too many times to ask for advice on treatment but have some
> > observations where any comments would be welcome:-
> >
> > 1. The tank is newly set up. I used media from another disease free tank
> > and
> > water/substrate from a disease free tank.
> >
> > 2. I have never seen any signs of Ich at the LFS where I have been going
> > for
> > years before getting into this hobby and purchasing from for 12 months.
> >
> > 3. Everything in the tank came from this LFS including the companion
Neons
> > that show no sign of the disease
> >
> > 4. The Clowns have always been nervy and very shy
> >
> > 5. The tank, despite my best efforts, went through a mini cycle -
nitrites
> > have been below 0.1 but still a very, very pale pink
> >
> > 6. They are in a quieter area of the house to the other tanks
> >
> > 7. Obviously the Clowns are stressed somehow - my money would be on the
> > water quality and the lack of other fish activity in the tank to put
them
> > at
> > ease.
> >
> > What I don't understand is how the Ich got there in the first place. I
> > observe the Clowns in the LFS at least once a week and have never seen a
> > problem.
> >
> > So does this bear out the fact that Ich is always present in water and
it
> > is
> > a combination of factors and stress that makes Clown Loaches prone to
Ich
> > and that the spores are present in all water?
> >
> > Very, very fed up. Here I go again on the Ich treatment :-(
> >
> > Gill
> >
> >Doesn't anyone here use Ridich? I got it from an online uk supplier,
> >arrived next day. It is very safe for clowns. I tried protozin, which
cured
> >the tetra who had it first, and watched the clowns get it one by one
during
> >the course. After running carbon I changed to Ridich, and each day they
got
> >better. It is used every day, plus 3 more days after last spot. All my
> >clowns survived, baby platies born during treatment are now 8 weeks old
and
> >looking good. The 65g had 5 clowns then, platies, 5 tetra and 3 c.julli.
> >Nobody had any adverse reaction, and everyone survived.I treated tank at
> >6.30am as it was in June with long summer days and my clowns were all up
> >early. I wanted to treat them before they had a nap in an ornament. They
5
> >clowns are now a happy group of 8. I din't quarantine the last 3 small
> >clowns, weighing up it was better for them to be with other clowns than
> >alone in 10g. They had come from a tank in LFS with over 50 clowns, and
> >figured 3 with another 5 was the best bet in this case. Mary
>
>
I'm using Protozin as it was what eventually cleared the Ich on my original
Clowns when I had a long drawn out battle with it earlier this year. It was
also what I had in my cupboard.

I'm pretty sure that it is the stress of the quarantine that brought on the
Ich - damn. Although it had to get there somehow - must have come in with
the fish which does suprise me as I've watched the Clown stock in there for
a long, long time. By contrast the three I put in the main Community Tank
are thriving - far more active fish in there. I suppose you live and learn.

Gill

[2pods]

> I'm using Protozin as it was what eventually cleared the Ich on my
> original
> Clowns when I had a long drawn out battle with it earlier this year. It
> was
> also what I had in my cupboard.
>
> I'm pretty sure that it is the stress of the quarantine that brought on
> the
> Ich - damn. Although it had to get there somehow - must have come in with
> the fish which does suprise me as I've watched the Clown stock in there
> for
> a long, long time. By contrast the three I put in the main Community Tank
> are thriving - far more active fish in there. I suppose you live and
> learn.
>
> Gill
>
Hi Gill,

I don't know if it's any help, but I used Interpet Anti-Whitespot with my
first lot of Clown's which worked very well.

Peter

>

[Gill Passman]

"2pods" > wrote in message
...
> > I'm using Protozin as it was what eventually cleared the Ich on my
> > original
> > Clowns when I had a long drawn out battle with it earlier this year. It
> > was
> > also what I had in my cupboard.
> >
> > I'm pretty sure that it is the stress of the quarantine that brought on
> > the
> > Ich - damn. Although it had to get there somehow - must have come in
with
> > the fish which does suprise me as I've watched the Clown stock in there
> > for
> > a long, long time. By contrast the three I put in the main Community
Tank
> > are thriving - far more active fish in there. I suppose you live and
> > learn.
> >
> > Gill
> >
> Hi Gill,
>
> I don't know if it's any help, but I used Interpet Anti-Whitespot with my
> first lot of Clown's which worked very well.
>
> Peter
>
> >
>
>
Hi Peter,
I used it the first time on my originals and it worked fine. It didn't work
on the second long drawn out attack which was why I switched to the Protozin
which did work. If the Protozin doesn't work I think I still have the
Interpet Anti-Whitespot as well so will switch treatments after using carbon
for a few days.

Thanks
Gill

[Gill Passman]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
.. .
> Alpha wrote:
> > "Alpha" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>"Elaine T" > wrote in message
> m...
> >>
> >>>Alpha wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>I probably read this years ago at a site that produces Maracide.
> >>>>However, my quickest search finds:
> >>>>
> >>>>http://www.nunnie.com/ick.html
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>So you consider someone with Madonna music on their website an
expert?!?
> >>>This person doesn't even know how to spell ich (short for
> >>>Ichthyophthirius) and admits to almost killing her tire tread eel by
> >>>dumping salt on it.
> >>>
> >>>Stick to people with DVM or Ph.D. after their names for more reliable
> >>>advice.
> >>
> >>
> >>Do you have a doctorate...I do.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > Frankly, I indicated where I probably read this. I am not an
ichthyologist
> > (and from what I have read, neither are you). I resent your attitude in
> > spades.
> >
> >
> >
> So go somewhere other than usenet. *shrug* Maybe a nice, moderated
> phpBB2 would suit you better. While pursuing your doctorate, you should
> have learned to discriminate good from bad references. You put that
> silly web page up as a reference - not me. I don't think you even read
it.
>
> As for my own credentials, I have a masters degree in neuroscience and
> many years of laboratory experience, which means I can understand almost
> anything I choose to read in biology with only modest background
> reading. I've learned a fair amount of organic chemistry as well so
> fishtank chemistry comes easily. My doctorate in the loosely related
> field of bioinformatics will be finished in about two more years, at
> which point I will probably hold more diplomas than you do. But it's
> only paper.
>
> More importantly, during my tenure as a graduate student I learned how
> to find reliable information. For aquarium info, I tend to stick to
> aquaculture articles, the peer-reviewed biological literature on fish
> physiology, books by ichthyologists and vets, and information from
> expert aquarists like Takashi Amano, Tom Barr, and George Booth. I also
> have a bookshelf full of carefully chosen aquarium books. You might be
> surprised how much work goes into some of my posts here because I enjoy
> reading the literature and articles.
>
> In addition to being a hobbyist, I worked in an outstanding fish store
> where I learned rather a lot about fishkeeping. I've seen pathogens
> under a microscope, learned how to diagnose and treat tanks full of sick
> fish, and how to help folks with all sorts of problems. Wrong answers
> to customers were NOT tolerated, so all the staff rapidly became expert
> or vanished.
>
> If you post things like "ich is in the water of most aquaria," as fact
> and I have read otherwise from good sources, I will ask for references.
> There are mostly beginners here and everyone posting and answering
> questions with statements that they claim to be facts rather than
> personal experiences has a responsibility to provide correct information
> to the best of their knowledge. Even worse, mistakes are becoming
> harder and harder to fix because of archives like Google News. People
> do exactly what you say to their tanks, and sometimes their fish live or
> die because of it.
>
> --
> Elaine T __
> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <
> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

I did quite a lot of research when my original Clowns had the very
persistent outbreak of Ich. The important thing is to understand the
life-cycle and to catch the tomites with the meds when they are free
swimming which is the only time when the meds are effective. This being the
reason why repeat medications are important in the treatment of Ich. In
theory if the water is rid of all tomites the life-cycle is disrupted and
the tank should then, in theory, be Ich free as the parasites will not
survive long without a host. In this way it is a water born parasite and it
is when the cysts burst and release the free swimming tomites that the fish
get infected. From my understanding stress makes the fish hosts more
susceptible to infestation.

I've heard many a time the assertion that "Ich is always present in an
Aquarium" but with the correct medication and completion of treatment this
should not be the case. However, after considering what I have read, the
chances are that in tanks where there are constant changes (additions of
plants, fish etc) the probability that Ich will be introduced either through
free swimming tomites in LFS water or the adult parasite on the fish
themselves is quite high. So maybe the correct assertion would be that there
is a high probability that Ich will usually be present in LFS Aquariums.

Then of course there is the assertion that stress causes Ich. If the
parasites aren't present then it can't - so how does it happen if the
parasites aren't present in the water already? It can't do....in my first
two Ich experiences there was an outside factor in introducing the Ich into
the tank (fish already infected/plants from an LFS were Ich was present in
some of the tanks)..In this current case it must have come in with the
fish - as there were no outward signs it must have been hidden in the gills
of either the Clowns or the Tetras or an outside chance on some of the
plants. It wouldn't have already been present as it was a newly set up tank
using materials from Ich free home tanks.

There is some good reading on the subject out on the web most of which I
found by googling Ichthyophthirius multifilis and Loaches Online
(www.loaches.com). The following article is quite informative:-
http://www.netpets.com/fish/reference/freshref/ich.html

There are also some interesting links from NetMax's site.

In my current case I'm guessing now that the fish already had it when I got
them and that the nitrite spike and lack of dither fish (other than the
tetras) caused the stress...

Gill

[NetMax]

"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
>
> "Elaine T" > wrote in message
> .. .
>> Alpha wrote:
>> > "Alpha" > wrote in message
>> > ...
>> >
>> >>"Elaine T" > wrote in message
>> m...
>> >>
>> >>>Alpha wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>>I probably read this years ago at a site that produces Maracide.
>> >>>>However, my quickest search finds:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>http://www.nunnie.com/ick.html
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>>So you consider someone with Madonna music on their website an
> expert?!?
>> >>>This person doesn't even know how to spell ich (short for
>> >>>Ichthyophthirius) and admits to almost killing her tire tread eel by
>> >>>dumping salt on it.
>> >>>
>> >>>Stick to people with DVM or Ph.D. after their names for more reliable
>> >>>advice.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>Do you have a doctorate...I do.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > Frankly, I indicated where I probably read this. I am not an
> ichthyologist
>> > (and from what I have read, neither are you). I resent your attitude
>> > in
>> > spades.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> So go somewhere other than usenet. *shrug* Maybe a nice, moderated
>> phpBB2 would suit you better. While pursuing your doctorate, you should
>> have learned to discriminate good from bad references. You put that
>> silly web page up as a reference - not me. I don't think you even read
> it.
>>
>> As for my own credentials, I have a masters degree in neuroscience and
>> many years of laboratory experience, which means I can understand almost
>> anything I choose to read in biology with only modest background
>> reading. I've learned a fair amount of organic chemistry as well so
>> fishtank chemistry comes easily. My doctorate in the loosely related
>> field of bioinformatics will be finished in about two more years, at
>> which point I will probably hold more diplomas than you do. But it's
>> only paper.
>>
>> More importantly, during my tenure as a graduate student I learned how
>> to find reliable information. For aquarium info, I tend to stick to
>> aquaculture articles, the peer-reviewed biological literature on fish
>> physiology, books by ichthyologists and vets, and information from
>> expert aquarists like Takashi Amano, Tom Barr, and George Booth. I also
>> have a bookshelf full of carefully chosen aquarium books. You might be
>> surprised how much work goes into some of my posts here because I enjoy
>> reading the literature and articles.
>>
>> In addition to being a hobbyist, I worked in an outstanding fish store
>> where I learned rather a lot about fishkeeping. I've seen pathogens
>> under a microscope, learned how to diagnose and treat tanks full of sick
>> fish, and how to help folks with all sorts of problems. Wrong answers
>> to customers were NOT tolerated, so all the staff rapidly became expert
>> or vanished.
>>
>> If you post things like "ich is in the water of most aquaria," as fact
>> and I have read otherwise from good sources, I will ask for references.
>> There are mostly beginners here and everyone posting and answering
>> questions with statements that they claim to be facts rather than
>> personal experiences has a responsibility to provide correct information
>> to the best of their knowledge. Even worse, mistakes are becoming
>> harder and harder to fix because of archives like Google News. People
>> do exactly what you say to their tanks, and sometimes their fish live or
>> die because of it.
>>
>> --
>> Elaine T __
>> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <
>> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com
>
> I did quite a lot of research when my original Clowns had the very
> persistent outbreak of Ich. The important thing is to understand the
> life-cycle and to catch the tomites with the meds when they are free
> swimming which is the only time when the meds are effective. This being
> the
> reason why repeat medications are important in the treatment of Ich. In
> theory if the water is rid of all tomites the life-cycle is disrupted and
> the tank should then, in theory, be Ich free as the parasites will not
> survive long without a host. In this way it is a water born parasite and
> it
> is when the cysts burst and release the free swimming tomites that the
> fish
> get infected. From my understanding stress makes the fish hosts more
> susceptible to infestation.
>
> I've heard many a time the assertion that "Ich is always present in an
> Aquarium" but with the correct medication and completion of treatment this
> should not be the case. However, after considering what I have read, the
> chances are that in tanks where there are constant changes (additions of
> plants, fish etc) the probability that Ich will be introduced either
> through
> free swimming tomites in LFS water or the adult parasite on the fish
> themselves is quite high. So maybe the correct assertion would be that
> there
> is a high probability that Ich will usually be present in LFS Aquariums.
>
> Then of course there is the assertion that stress causes Ich. If the
> parasites aren't present then it can't - so how does it happen if the
> parasites aren't present in the water already? It can't do....in my first
> two Ich experiences there was an outside factor in introducing the Ich
> into
> the tank (fish already infected/plants from an LFS were Ich was present in
> some of the tanks)..In this current case it must have come in with the
> fish - as there were no outward signs it must have been hidden in the
> gills
> of either the Clowns or the Tetras or an outside chance on some of the
> plants. It wouldn't have already been present as it was a newly set up
> tank
> using materials from Ich free home tanks.
>
> There is some good reading on the subject out on the web most of which I
> found by googling Ichthyophthirius multifilis and Loaches Online
> (www.loaches.com). The following article is quite informative:-
> http://www.netpets.com/fish/reference/freshref/ich.html
>
> There are also some interesting links from NetMax's site.
>
> In my current case I'm guessing now that the fish already had it when I
> got
> them and that the nitrite spike and lack of dither fish (other than the
> tetras) caused the stress...
>
> Gill


For what it's worth, I'd guess that your clowns were already exposed to Ich
(could have been in re-packing transport, original packing etc), may or may
not have been treated (my guess is they were), and were still carrying some
of the parasites in their gills (which is a good reason to quarantine).
Anything wet from an LFS could also be a vector.

The lack of dither would not imo be sufficient to influence the progress of
the contagion. They might have been jumpy, only because they were already
infected. I can't see their natural defence (their slime coat) being much
influenced by whether there were dither fish around. IME fish can behave
jumpy when sick, *before* they show visible symptoms.

As for Ich being perpetual, I think that this is the voice of frustrated
hobbyists and really has no scientific basis as far as I've read. They are
parasites which depend on a host. They have a clearly understood lifecycle
(extensively studied because it can affect commercial fish farming, for both
human consumption and hobby tropicals). What I think might confuse
hobbyists is when there is a low level Ich contagion eking out a poor living
in the some gill membranes, but these do die off as well. They can pop up
during quarantine though, especially with scaleless fish.

With the Clowns I have now, I'm 100% certain that I could not cause then to
get Ich from any level of stress (they have been isolated from LFS water for
years), but I couldn't make any such assertion with Clowns freshly exposed
to *any* LFS water, no matter how clean their tanks looked.

ps: Sympatico's news server has been down for a few days, so we aren't
getting all our contributors. When I spoke to Sympatico, they said they
were experiencing some technical challenges getting the service back up ;~).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Derek W. Benson]

On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 10:57:43 +0100, "Gill Passman"
<gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote:

>I did quite a lot of research when my original Clowns had the very
>persistent outbreak of Ich. The important thing is to understand the
>life-cycle and to catch the tomites with the meds when they are free
>swimming which is the only time when the meds are effective. This being the
>reason why repeat medications are important in the treatment of Ich. In
>theory if the water is rid of all tomites the life-cycle is disrupted and
>the tank should then, in theory, be Ich free as the parasites will not
>survive long without a host. In this way it is a water born parasite and it
>is when the cysts burst and release the free swimming tomites that the fish
>get infected. From my understanding stress makes the fish hosts more
>susceptible to infestation.
>
>I've heard many a time the assertion that "Ich is always present in an
>Aquarium" but with the correct medication and completion of treatment this
>should not be the case. However, after considering what I have read, the
>chances are that in tanks where there are constant changes (additions of
>plants, fish etc) the probability that Ich will be introduced either through
>free swimming tomites in LFS water or the adult parasite on the fish
>themselves is quite high. So maybe the correct assertion would be that there
>is a high probability that Ich will usually be present in LFS Aquariums.
>
>Then of course there is the assertion that stress causes Ich. If the
>parasites aren't present then it can't - so how does it happen if the
>parasites aren't present in the water already? It can't do....in my first
>two Ich experiences there was an outside factor in introducing the Ich into
>the tank (fish already infected/plants from an LFS were Ich was present in
>some of the tanks)..In this current case it must have come in with the
>fish - as there were no outward signs it must have been hidden in the gills
>of either the Clowns or the Tetras or an outside chance on some of the
>plants. It wouldn't have already been present as it was a newly set up tank
>using materials from Ich free home tanks.
>
>There is some good reading on the subject out on the web most of which I
>found by googling Ichthyophthirius multifilis and Loaches Online
>(www.loaches.com). The following article is quite informative:-
>http://www.netpets.com/fish/reference/freshref/ich.html
>
>There are also some interesting links from NetMax's site.
>
>In my current case I'm guessing now that the fish already had it when I got
>them and that the nitrite spike and lack of dither fish (other than the
>tetras) caused the stress...
>
>Gill
>
There is some interesting info on Ich to be gleaned by a Google
search. I've just read through the first 4-5 pages of hits which came
up on my search. I mean, I clicked on each of the links and read the
pages themselves, not just the list of links on Google. So this is
about 40 websites with info, except I skipped most of the pages that
were aquarium fan sites. So most of it was scientific info from
veterinarians, microbiologists, Dr. and PhD so and so, etc. Here was
an interesting bit from one of these sites:

"The Aerobiological Dissemination Of The Fish Parasite
Ichthyophthirius multifiliis
Gregory A. Wooster, Todd M. Bishop, Paul R. Bowser

"Aquatic Animal Health Program, Department of Microbiology and
Immunology, College of Veterinary Medicine, Cornell University,
Ithaca, New York 14853-6401 USA

"The aerobiological (airborne) pathway or dissemination of
the ciliated protozoan parasite Ichthyophthirius multifiliis was
investigated. Results indicate that viable Ichthyophthirius
multifiliis trophonts or tomites can travel as an aerosol/droplet
spray from an aerated aquarium (tank) stocked with experimentally
infected channel catfish (Ictalurus punctatus) and infect naive
channel catfish in aquaria placed up to 7.6 cm (3 inches) away. When a
gentle airflow is applied across the infected tank by a small muffin
fan viable parasites can infect aquaria stocked with channel catfish
up to 91.4 cm (3 feet away). Work performed previously in this lab
showed that viable Aeromonas salmonicida can be spread via airborne
route and be recovered from water downwind from an experimentally
generated aerosol/droplet spray. It is possible that viable fish
pathogens can be spread via the airborne route. This possible route of
pathogen introduction could effect current management or system
designs, especially when aquaculture systems consist of tanks in close
proximity."

So, here's at least one more way, in theory, that you could have
gotten Ich into your quarantine tank, if this tank is standing right
beside your main tank. And the possibility that you could have gotten
it from your tap water cannot be dismissed automatically. Ich is
present in some waters in the wild, it had to originally come from
somewhere, right? So if your water supply is from a local lake, in
this lake there are maybe some fish, the water company uses mechanical
filtration to purify the water, maybe some of these free-swimmer
tomites can slip through or past the fitration system, and maybe these
fish in the lake have sometimes had Ich...

A couple other somewhat interesting things I wanted to mention or
quote here, but it's past my bedtime so I'll come back to it tomorrow.
-Derek

[Alpha]

This is interesting. If airborne (even limited) transmission can happen,
what about transmission via air to body or clothes? Or the natural problem
of being around the infected aquarium and picking it up via water to hands,
nets, etc. (the later is obvious, perhaps).

[lgb]

In article >,
says...
> On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 10:57:43 +0100, "Gill Passman"
> <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >I did quite a lot of research when my original Clowns had the very
> >persistent outbreak of Ich. The important thing is to understand the
> >life-cycle and to catch the tomites with the meds when they are free
> >swimming which is the only time when the meds are effective.
> >
> >There is some good reading on the subject out on the web most of which I
> >found by googling Ichthyophthirius multifilis and Loaches Online
> >(www.loaches.com). The following article is quite informative:-
> >http://www.netpets.com/fish/reference/freshref/ich.html
> >
There was an article on curing ich in the April issue of TFH. To
summarize, the author moved the fish from one tank to another back and
forth, sterilizing the empty tank each time. Apparently interrupted the
ich life cycle.

--
BNSF = Build Now, Seep Forever

[Gill Passman]

"Alpha" > wrote in message
...
> This is interesting. If airborne (even limited) transmission can happen,
> what about transmission via air to body or clothes? Or the natural
problem
> of being around the infected aquarium and picking it up via water to
hands,
> nets, etc. (the later is obvious, perhaps).
>
>
>
A good reason not to use the same equipment on different tanks without
cleaning it first I guess. I also wash my hands before sticking them in
another tank when they have been in contact with the water from one of the
others.

Gill

[NetMax]

"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
>
> "Alpha" > wrote in message
> ...
>> This is interesting. If airborne (even limited) transmission can happen,
>> what about transmission via air to body or clothes? Or the natural
> problem
>> of being around the infected aquarium and picking it up via water to
> hands,
>> nets, etc. (the later is obvious, perhaps).
>>
>>
>>
> A good reason not to use the same equipment on different tanks without
> cleaning it first I guess. I also wash my hands before sticking them in
> another tank when they have been in contact with the water from one of the
> others.
>
> Gill


Where I worked, I set up a small fish room for the quarantine/isolation
tanks (three 14g and three 20g). It was independent from the display tanks,
having its own nets, filters, fish food and medicine storage. I didn't know
about the 3" radius (interesting stuff), but as a minimum, they should not
be in splash range, and for a store, they need to be far enough away from
each other so that wet hands, nets etc don't get shared.

Unfortunately, these tanks were in close proximity to each other (spreading
diseases between them), so I guess the next thing we should have done is to
divide them up (parasites on one side of the room, bacterial problems on the
other side), but it was unusual to have all six tanks full of patients.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Gill Passman]

"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
>
> "2pods" > wrote in message
> ...
> > > I'm using Protozin as it was what eventually cleared the Ich on my
> > > original
> > > Clowns when I had a long drawn out battle with it earlier this year.
It
> > > was
> > > also what I had in my cupboard.
> > >
> > > I'm pretty sure that it is the stress of the quarantine that brought
on
> > > the
> > > Ich - damn. Although it had to get there somehow - must have come in
> with
> > > the fish which does suprise me as I've watched the Clown stock in
there
> > > for
> > > a long, long time. By contrast the three I put in the main Community
> Tank
> > > are thriving - far more active fish in there. I suppose you live and
> > > learn.
> > >
> > > Gill
> > >
> > Hi Gill,
> >
> > I don't know if it's any help, but I used Interpet Anti-Whitespot with
my
> > first lot of Clown's which worked very well.
> >
> > Peter
> >
> > >
> >
> >
> Hi Peter,
> I used it the first time on my originals and it worked fine. It didn't
work
> on the second long drawn out attack which was why I switched to the
Protozin
> which did work. If the Protozin doesn't work I think I still have the
> Interpet Anti-Whitespot as well so will switch treatments after using
carbon
> for a few days.
>
> Thanks
> Gill
>
>
Well, I think it will be on to the Interpet Anti-Whitespot. It's not
clearing up. Lost a Neon this morning :-(

One of the Clowns came out the front this morning - still spotty (maybe a
few less but I might be clutching at straws), very grey and looking weak. He
swam around for a bit though before going back into hiding. Still can't get
them to eat so I think I'll try some live bloodworm. Did a water change as
I'm still not happy with the water quality (it really is only just the very
faintest tint of pink on the nitrites so below 0.1 but I really would prefer
this clear). Also added some more salt.

I'm not very hopeful but not ready to give up the fight yet....

Gill

[Nikki Casali]

Gill Passman wrote:

> "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
> .. .
>
>>"2pods" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>>>I'm using Protozin as it was what eventually cleared the Ich on my
>>>>original
>>>>Clowns when I had a long drawn out battle with it earlier this year.
>
> It
>
>>>>was
>>>>also what I had in my cupboard.
>>>>
>>>>I'm pretty sure that it is the stress of the quarantine that brought
>
> on
>
>>>>the
>>>>Ich - damn. Although it had to get there somehow - must have come in
>>
>>with
>>
>>>>the fish which does suprise me as I've watched the Clown stock in
>
> there
>
>>>>for
>>>>a long, long time. By contrast the three I put in the main Community
>>
>>Tank
>>
>>>>are thriving - far more active fish in there. I suppose you live and
>>>>learn.
>>>>
>>>>Gill
>>>>
>>>
>>>Hi Gill,
>>>
>>>I don't know if it's any help, but I used Interpet Anti-Whitespot with
>
> my
>
>>>first lot of Clown's which worked very well.
>>>
>>>Peter
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Hi Peter,
>>I used it the first time on my originals and it worked fine. It didn't
>
> work
>
>>on the second long drawn out attack which was why I switched to the
>
> Protozin
>
>>which did work. If the Protozin doesn't work I think I still have the
>>Interpet Anti-Whitespot as well so will switch treatments after using
>
> carbon
>
>>for a few days.
>>
>>Thanks
>>Gill
>>
>>
>
> Well, I think it will be on to the Interpet Anti-Whitespot. It's not
> clearing up. Lost a Neon this morning :-(
>
> One of the Clowns came out the front this morning - still spotty (maybe a
> few less but I might be clutching at straws), very grey and looking weak. He
> swam around for a bit though before going back into hiding. Still can't get
> them to eat so I think I'll try some live bloodworm. Did a water change as
> I'm still not happy with the water quality (it really is only just the very
> faintest tint of pink on the nitrites so below 0.1 but I really would prefer
> this clear). Also added some more salt.
>
> I'm not very hopeful but not ready to give up the fight yet....

You are so brave! Whenever I get hold of that elusive Instant Ich Cure
for Clowns, I'll get some Clowns. For now, I'll be crossing my fingers
and will be glued to this space. Don't let me down Clowns!

Nikki

[Gill Passman]

"Nikki Casali" > wrote in message
...
> Gill Passman wrote:
>
> > "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
> > .. .
> >
> >>"2pods" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>
> >>>>I'm using Protozin as it was what eventually cleared the Ich on my
> >>>>original
> >>>>Clowns when I had a long drawn out battle with it earlier this year.
> >
> > It
> >
> >>>>was
> >>>>also what I had in my cupboard.
> >>>>
> >>>>I'm pretty sure that it is the stress of the quarantine that brought
> >
> > on
> >
> >>>>the
> >>>>Ich - damn. Although it had to get there somehow - must have come in
> >>
> >>with
> >>
> >>>>the fish which does suprise me as I've watched the Clown stock in
> >
> > there
> >
> >>>>for
> >>>>a long, long time. By contrast the three I put in the main Community
> >>
> >>Tank
> >>
> >>>>are thriving - far more active fish in there. I suppose you live and
> >>>>learn.
> >>>>
> >>>>Gill
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>Hi Gill,
> >>>
> >>>I don't know if it's any help, but I used Interpet Anti-Whitespot with
> >
> > my
> >
> >>>first lot of Clown's which worked very well.
> >>>
> >>>Peter
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>Hi Peter,
> >>I used it the first time on my originals and it worked fine. It didn't
> >
> > work
> >
> >>on the second long drawn out attack which was why I switched to the
> >
> > Protozin
> >
> >>which did work. If the Protozin doesn't work I think I still have the
> >>Interpet Anti-Whitespot as well so will switch treatments after using
> >
> > carbon
> >
> >>for a few days.
> >>
> >>Thanks
> >>Gill
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Well, I think it will be on to the Interpet Anti-Whitespot. It's not
> > clearing up. Lost a Neon this morning :-(
> >
> > One of the Clowns came out the front this morning - still spotty (maybe
a
> > few less but I might be clutching at straws), very grey and looking
weak. He
> > swam around for a bit though before going back into hiding. Still can't
get
> > them to eat so I think I'll try some live bloodworm. Did a water change
as
> > I'm still not happy with the water quality (it really is only just the
very
> > faintest tint of pink on the nitrites so below 0.1 but I really would
prefer
> > this clear). Also added some more salt.
> >
> > I'm not very hopeful but not ready to give up the fight yet....
>
> You are so brave! Whenever I get hold of that elusive Instant Ich Cure
> for Clowns, I'll get some Clowns. For now, I'll be crossing my fingers
> and will be glued to this space. Don't let me down Clowns!
>
> Nikki
>
Thanks Nikki....I know you had a similar experience :-(

Two of them have now died. One strangely enough had good colour and no
spots - the other one was covered.

The remaining one has been a trouper all day and trying to swim out
front....he is now so grey he is almost silver...he is lying at the bottom
of the tank in a corner at the front. Part of the problem I'm sure is that
he got freaked when I removed his two dead companions but I couldn't leave
them there. I've turned the lights out in the hope that he will calm down
but I have my concerns about a Clown's will to live without companions when
he is already sick.

Spoke to one LFS about the ineffectiveness of the Protozin and his theory is
that there are various strains of Ich that respond differently to different
meds....who knows but it has to be said that this has been my experience.

The Quick Cure would be good if we could get it over here. I don't know if
we can purchase meds on the net across continents - I would guess there
might be some restrictions in place but I might be wrong.....In the
meanwhile I suppose we play pot luck with our clowns and try and do the best
that we can for them.....I just, so, so wish I'd sussed it earlier - I know
that the general concencious is that you don't treat fish in QT for
potential disease but maybe it would be worth treating Clowns for Ich just
in case. As they are wild caught fish the chances of them carrying such a
parasite must be quite high.

I'm going to go and sit in front of the TV now and try not to visit my
ailing Clown too much.....I'll watch the Pandas and Gobies to cheer me
up....peace and quiet is not an option tonight as Reading Festival is in
full swing and we can hear every note inspite of the double-glazing....

Gill

[Gill Passman]

"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
>
> "Nikki Casali" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Gill Passman wrote:
> >
> > > "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
> > > .. .
> > >
> > >>"2pods" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >>
> > >>>>I'm using Protozin as it was what eventually cleared the Ich on my
> > >>>>original
> > >>>>Clowns when I had a long drawn out battle with it earlier this year.
> > >
> > > It
> > >
> > >>>>was
> > >>>>also what I had in my cupboard.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>I'm pretty sure that it is the stress of the quarantine that brought
> > >
> > > on
> > >
> > >>>>the
> > >>>>Ich - damn. Although it had to get there somehow - must have come in
> > >>
> > >>with
> > >>
> > >>>>the fish which does suprise me as I've watched the Clown stock in
> > >
> > > there
> > >
> > >>>>for
> > >>>>a long, long time. By contrast the three I put in the main Community
> > >>
> > >>Tank
> > >>
> > >>>>are thriving - far more active fish in there. I suppose you live and
> > >>>>learn.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>Gill
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>>Hi Gill,
> > >>>
> > >>>I don't know if it's any help, but I used Interpet Anti-Whitespot
with
> > >
> > > my
> > >
> > >>>first lot of Clown's which worked very well.
> > >>>
> > >>>Peter
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>Hi Peter,
> > >>I used it the first time on my originals and it worked fine. It didn't
> > >
> > > work
> > >
> > >>on the second long drawn out attack which was why I switched to the
> > >
> > > Protozin
> > >
> > >>which did work. If the Protozin doesn't work I think I still have the
> > >>Interpet Anti-Whitespot as well so will switch treatments after using
> > >
> > > carbon
> > >
> > >>for a few days.
> > >>
> > >>Thanks
> > >>Gill
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > > Well, I think it will be on to the Interpet Anti-Whitespot. It's not
> > > clearing up. Lost a Neon this morning :-(
> > >
> > > One of the Clowns came out the front this morning - still spotty
(maybe
> a
> > > few less but I might be clutching at straws), very grey and looking
> weak. He
> > > swam around for a bit though before going back into hiding. Still
can't
> get
> > > them to eat so I think I'll try some live bloodworm. Did a water
change
> as
> > > I'm still not happy with the water quality (it really is only just the
> very
> > > faintest tint of pink on the nitrites so below 0.1 but I really would
> prefer
> > > this clear). Also added some more salt.
> > >
> > > I'm not very hopeful but not ready to give up the fight yet....
> >
> > You are so brave! Whenever I get hold of that elusive Instant Ich Cure
> > for Clowns, I'll get some Clowns. For now, I'll be crossing my fingers
> > and will be glued to this space. Don't let me down Clowns!
> >
> > Nikki
> >
> Thanks Nikki....I know you had a similar experience :-(
>
> Two of them have now died. One strangely enough had good colour and no
> spots - the other one was covered.
>
> The remaining one has been a trouper all day and trying to swim out
> front....he is now so grey he is almost silver...he is lying at the bottom
> of the tank in a corner at the front. Part of the problem I'm sure is that
> he got freaked when I removed his two dead companions but I couldn't leave
> them there. I've turned the lights out in the hope that he will calm down
> but I have my concerns about a Clown's will to live without companions
when
> he is already sick.
>
> Spoke to one LFS about the ineffectiveness of the Protozin and his theory
is
> that there are various strains of Ich that respond differently to
different
> meds....who knows but it has to be said that this has been my experience.
>
> The Quick Cure would be good if we could get it over here. I don't know if
> we can purchase meds on the net across continents - I would guess there
> might be some restrictions in place but I might be wrong.....In the
> meanwhile I suppose we play pot luck with our clowns and try and do the
best
> that we can for them.....I just, so, so wish I'd sussed it earlier - I
know
> that the general concencious is that you don't treat fish in QT for
> potential disease but maybe it would be worth treating Clowns for Ich just
> in case. As they are wild caught fish the chances of them carrying such a
> parasite must be quite high.
>
> I'm going to go and sit in front of the TV now and try not to visit my
> ailing Clown too much.....I'll watch the Pandas and Gobies to cheer me
> up....peace and quiet is not an option tonight as Reading Festival is in
> full swing and we can hear every note inspite of the double-glazing....
>
> Gill
>
>
The last one has now gone - very peacefully ;-( He was plucky to the last
and I had hoped that I could at least save him - sadly it was not to
be.....I now have to concentrate on saving the Neons - they will move into a
5gall tank tomorrow....I will break down the tank in question again and
sterilise everything again - the thought keeps crossing my mind that this
tank is unlucky (it was my son's death tank a few months ago) - I bleached
it and thoroughly cleaned it before setting it up again and despite my habit
of saying pl*co I'm not really superstisious...

very sad
Gill

[Nikki Casali]

Gill Passman wrote:

> Two of them have now died. One strangely enough had good colour and no
> spots - the other one was covered.

Achhh! Mine died in full colour. Although one looked like skin was
starting to slough off. Horrible.

These were taken last September. They show two Clowns covered in very
fine salt grains. I wasn't sure whether they were hit by both ich and
velvet.
http://www.ncasali.demon.co.uk/index.html

> The remaining one has been a trouper all day and trying to swim out
> front....he is now so grey he is almost silver...he is lying at the bottom
> of the tank in a corner at the front. Part of the problem I'm sure is that
> he got freaked when I removed his two dead companions but I couldn't leave
> them there. I've turned the lights out in the hope that he will calm down
> but I have my concerns about a Clown's will to live without companions when
> he is already sick.
>
> Spoke to one LFS about the ineffectiveness of the Protozin and his theory is
> that there are various strains of Ich that respond differently to different
> meds....who knows but it has to be said that this has been my experience.

It's a pity Clowns can't appreciate the value of the placebo effect!

> The Quick Cure would be good if we could get it over here. I don't know if
> we can purchase meds on the net across continents - I would guess there
> might be some restrictions in place but I might be wrong.....

I've heard that WS3 by King British is effective.

In the
> meanwhile I suppose we play pot luck with our clowns and try and do the best
> that we can for them.....I just, so, so wish I'd sussed it earlier - I know
> that the general concencious is that you don't treat fish in QT for
> potential disease but maybe it would be worth treating Clowns for Ich just
> in case. As they are wild caught fish the chances of them carrying such a
> parasite must be quite high.

I'd go with premedicating the QT tank. Ambush them in their dormant
state, I'd say. This ich parasite is starting to really make me furious!

Nikki

[NetMax]

"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote...
> "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote...
>> "Nikki Casali" > wrote...
>> > Gill Passman wrote:
>> > > "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote...
>> > >>"2pods" > wrote

<snip>
I will break down the tank in question again and
> sterilise everything again - the thought keeps crossing my mind that
> this
> tank is unlucky (it was my son's death tank a few months ago) - I
> bleached
> it and thoroughly cleaned it before setting it up again and despite my
> habit
> of saying pl*co I'm not really superstisious...
> very sad
> Gill

I've heard than re-siliconing a tank with the anti-fungal silicone will
do it (mysterious death tank). I believe it, as these fungicides should
be noticeably toxic in small tanks.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[coolchinchilla]

Gill Passman wrote:
> The last one has now gone - very peacefully ;-( He was plucky to the last
> and I had hoped that I could at least save him - sadly it was not to
> be.....I now have to concentrate on saving the Neons - they will move into a
> 5gall tank tomorrow....I will break down the tank in question again and
> sterilise everything again - the thought keeps crossing my mind that this
> tank is unlucky (it was my son's death tank a few months ago) - I bleached
> it and thoroughly cleaned it before setting it up again and despite my habit
> of saying pl*co I'm not really superstisious...
>
> very sad
Gill, I am so so sorry about your loaches. You gave them every
possible chance to survive. You are a kind and responsible aquarist.

Again, I'm so sorry.

coolchinchilla

[Alpha]

"Nikki Casali" > wrote in message
...
> Gill Passman wrote:
>
>> Two of them have now died. One strangely enough had good colour and no
>> spots - the other one was covered.
>
> Achhh! Mine died in full colour. Although one looked like skin was
> starting to slough off. Horrible.
>
> These were taken last September. They show two Clowns covered in very fine
> salt grains. I wasn't sure whether they were hit by both ich and velvet.
> http://www.ncasali.demon.co.uk/index.html
>
>> The remaining one has been a trouper all day and trying to swim out
>> front....he is now so grey he is almost silver...he is lying at the
>> bottom
>> of the tank in a corner at the front. Part of the problem I'm sure is
>> that
>> he got freaked when I removed his two dead companions but I couldn't
>> leave
>> them there. I've turned the lights out in the hope that he will calm down
>> but I have my concerns about a Clown's will to live without companions
>> when
>> he is already sick.
>>
>> Spoke to one LFS about the ineffectiveness of the Protozin and his theory
>> is
>> that there are various strains of Ich that respond differently to
>> different
>> meds....who knows but it has to be said that this has been my experience.
>
> It's a pity Clowns can't appreciate the value of the placebo effect!
>
>> The Quick Cure would be good if we could get it over here. I don't know
>> if
>> we can purchase meds on the net across continents - I would guess there
>> might be some restrictions in place but I might be wrong.....
>
> I've heard that WS3 by King British is effective.
>
> In the
>> meanwhile I suppose we play pot luck with our clowns and try and do the
>> best
>> that we can for them.....I just, so, so wish I'd sussed it earlier - I
>> know
>> that the general concencious is that you don't treat fish in QT for
>> potential disease but maybe it would be worth treating Clowns for Ich
>> just
>> in case. As they are wild caught fish the chances of them carrying such a
>> parasite must be quite high.
>
> I'd go with premedicating the QT tank. Ambush them in their dormant state,
> I'd say. This ich parasite is starting to really make me furious!
>
> Nikki
>

[Derek W. Benson]

On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 00:42:16 +0100, Nikki Casali
> wrote:

>Gill Passman wrote:
>
>> Two of them have now died. One strangely enough had good colour and no
>> spots - the other one was covered.
>
>Achhh! Mine died in full colour. Although one looked like skin was
>starting to slough off. Horrible.
>
>These were taken last September. They show two Clowns covered in very
>fine salt grains. I wasn't sure whether they were hit by both ich and
>velvet.
>http://www.ncasali.demon.co.uk/index.html
>
>Nikki

From your description and the photos I'd say that the Clowns (NiKKi's
Clowns I'm talking about!) did not have Ich, but Oodinium pillularis
or "pillularis disease". I don't like this common name and would
prefer to dub this illness "grey velvet". It is a relative of velvet,
Oodinium limneticum, which has the golden color to the powder spots.
The illness is described in Peter Hunnam's book The Living Aquarium.

Some years back I had 4 Texas Cichlids which contracted this illness,
one after one. They had patches of the grey powder spots, and the skin
started peeling off in a very short time, like after 24-36 hours.
Shortly thereafter each fish died.

-Derek

[Elaine T]

Gill Passman wrote:

> The last one has now gone - very peacefully ;-( He was plucky to the last
> and I had hoped that I could at least save him - sadly it was not to
> be.....I now have to concentrate on saving the Neons - they will move into a
> 5gall tank tomorrow....I will break down the tank in question again and
> sterilise everything again - the thought keeps crossing my mind that this
> tank is unlucky (it was my son's death tank a few months ago) - I bleached
> it and thoroughly cleaned it before setting it up again and despite my habit
> of saying pl*co I'm not really superstisious...
>
> very sad
> Gill
>
>
Aw, geez. I'm so sorry to hear that, Gill. I hope you can save the
neons. I think we need to drop the pleco thing and switch to cl*wn
loaches. :-(

Quick Cure is formalin and malachite green. I'm sure you can find
something similar in the UK. Kordon and Tetra both make
formalin/malachite cures. Use at a lower dose, don't combine with
anything else, keep the tank at normal temps, and aerate well if you
decide to try one.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Gill Passman]

"Derek W. Benson" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 00:42:16 +0100, Nikki Casali
> > wrote:
>
> >Gill Passman wrote:
> >
> >> Two of them have now died. One strangely enough had good colour and no
> >> spots - the other one was covered.
> >
> >Achhh! Mine died in full colour. Although one looked like skin was
> >starting to slough off. Horrible.
> >
> >These were taken last September. They show two Clowns covered in very
> >fine salt grains. I wasn't sure whether they were hit by both ich and
> >velvet.
> >http://www.ncasali.demon.co.uk/index.html
> >
> >Nikki
>
> From your description and the photos I'd say that the Clowns (NiKKi's
> Clowns I'm talking about!) did not have Ich, but Oodinium pillularis
> or "pillularis disease". I don't like this common name and would
> prefer to dub this illness "grey velvet". It is a relative of velvet,
> Oodinium limneticum, which has the golden color to the powder spots.
> The illness is described in Peter Hunnam's book The Living Aquarium.
>
> Some years back I had 4 Texas Cichlids which contracted this illness,
> one after one. They had patches of the grey powder spots, and the skin
> started peeling off in a very short time, like after 24-36 hours.
> Shortly thereafter each fish died.
>
> -Derek

Mine looked pretty much like Nikki's. I've done a google on Oodinium
pillularis and it could have been - can't double check the fish
unfortunately :-( I don't think the skin peeled off but other than that a
lot of the symptoms were the same. It started 13 days after I got them - I
noticed as I was checking them out for potentially moving into the Community
Tank. Obviously they must have had it for a lot longer than that - the only
strange thing was that they stayed hidden almost all the time and were
greyed out most of the time - I put this down to stress and shyness - post
"Extremely shy clown loaches". I'm kicking myself for not suspecting they
were ill...

Think I've lost another Neon....priority is to get these moved this
morning....

Gill

[Gill Passman]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
> "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote...
> > "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote...
> >> "Nikki Casali" > wrote...
> >> > Gill Passman wrote:
> >> > > "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote...
> >> > >>"2pods" > wrote
>
> <snip>
> I will break down the tank in question again and
> > sterilise everything again - the thought keeps crossing my mind that
> > this
> > tank is unlucky (it was my son's death tank a few months ago) - I
> > bleached
> > it and thoroughly cleaned it before setting it up again and despite my
> > habit
> > of saying pl*co I'm not really superstisious...
> > very sad
> > Gill
>
> I've heard than re-siliconing a tank with the anti-fungal silicone will
> do it (mysterious death tank). I believe it, as these fungicides should
> be noticeably toxic in small tanks.
> --
> www.NetMax.tk
>
>
I rinsed, bleached, rinsed and rinsed the tank before using it - it had been
out of use for quite a few months before that. I'll take a look for the
silicone next time I'm at the LFS - it's probably going to be a few
days/weeks before the tank is in use again.

Thanks
Gill

[Derek W. Benson]

On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 00:14:09 +0200, Derek W. Benson >
wrote:

>A couple other somewhat interesting things I wanted to mention or
>quote here, but it's past my bedtime so I'll come back to it tomorrow.
>-Derek

For those of us (myself, for example) who tend to raise the
temperature on a tank to speed up the Ich life cycle and hopefully
remove an Ich infestation without meds, here was an interesting bit:

"Special Considerations for
Treatment of Pet Fish

"Pet fish can be treated with any of the chemicals
discussed above to correct "Ich" infections. A number
of commercial preparations are available from pet
stores which contain one or several of these agents.
Temperature manipulation is also an effective way to
control "Ich" in home aquariums. This technique is
often not practical for commercial fish farms, but is
advantageous for the hobbyist because expensive
products do not have to be purchased and it is safer
for some of the delicate species which are popular in
community tanks. Water temperature can be
gradually raised to 90°F, maintained there for 24
hours, and then gradually dropped to 70°F for 48
hours. The infective juveniles (tomites) will be killed
while the water temperature is at 90°. When the
temperature is dropped the adult organisms will fall
off the fish and begin to reproduce. As the young
begin to emerge 48 hours later, the temperature is
again raised to 90°F, causing them to die. Repeating
this process continuously (24 hours at 90° F
followed by 48 hours at 70° F) for two weeks should
control the disease. Cleaning the tank every second
day will help remove cysts before they rupture and
therefore help to prevent completion of the life cycle.
If you decide to use temperature to control "Ich" in
your home aquarium be sure that the type of fish in
your tank can tolerate the temperature extremes
involved."

The above is from the following source:

This document is CIR920, one of a series of the Fisheries and Aquatic
Sciences Department, Florida Cooperative Extension Service, Institute
of Food and Agricultural Sciences, University of Florida. Original
publication date March, 1991. Reviewed July, 2002. Visit the EDIS Web
Site at
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu.Please visit the FAIRS Web site at
http://hammock.ifas.ufl.edu.

Ruth Francis-Floyd, IFAS ExtensionVeterinarian, Department of Large
Animal Clinical Sciences, and Peggy Reed, Biological Scientist,
Department of Large Animal Clinical Sciences and Department of
Fisheries and Aquatic Sciences; Cooperative Extension Service,
Institute of Food and Agricultural Sciences, University of Florida,
Gainesville, 32611.

[NetMax]

"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
>
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote...
>> > "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote...
>> >> "Nikki Casali" > wrote...
>> >> > Gill Passman wrote:
>> >> > > "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote...
>> >> > >>"2pods" > wrote
>>
>> <snip>
>> I will break down the tank in question again and
>> > sterilise everything again - the thought keeps crossing my mind that
>> > this
>> > tank is unlucky (it was my son's death tank a few months ago) - I
>> > bleached
>> > it and thoroughly cleaned it before setting it up again and despite
>> > my
>> > habit
>> > of saying pl*co I'm not really superstisious...
>> > very sad
>> > Gill
>>
>> I've heard than re-siliconing a tank with the anti-fungal silicone
>> will
>> do it (mysterious death tank). I believe it, as these fungicides
>> should
>> be noticeably toxic in small tanks.
>> --
>> www.NetMax.tk
>>
>>
> I rinsed, bleached, rinsed and rinsed the tank before using it - it had
> been
> out of use for quite a few months before that. I'll take a look for the
> silicone next time I'm at the LFS - it's probably going to be a few
> days/weeks before the tank is in use again.
>
> Thanks
> Gill


If the tank was built or re-built with the wrong silicone (a type with
fungicide or anti-bacterial agents) then there isn't anything that you
can really do, other than throw it away. You cannot visibly see the
difference. GE Window & Door clear silicone is identical to GE Bathroom
clear silicone, but the latter has fungicides.

I'm sorry you lost a batch of Clowns. For over a year, I tried to set up
a 100g species tank of Clown loaches, but since they weren't going to be
for sale (and would generate no direct revenue) I had to take my time and
wait to find them at a good price (it's seasonal). I went through many
batches, some were too small (sold them), others were medium sized (died)
and I even broke down and bought large ones (quickly succumbed to
velvet). It was a very frustrating experience, and unlike you, I had a
wealth of medications, quarantine tanks and a staff at my disposal (and I
still didn't do much better than you).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[NetMax]

"Derek W. Benson" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 00:14:09 +0200, Derek W. Benson >
> wrote:
>
>>A couple other somewhat interesting things I wanted to mention or
>>quote here, but it's past my bedtime so I'll come back to it tomorrow.
>>-Derek
>
> For those of us (myself, for example) who tend to raise the
> temperature on a tank to speed up the Ich life cycle and hopefully
> remove an Ich infestation without meds, here was an interesting bit:
>
> "Special Considerations for
> Treatment of Pet Fish
>
> "Pet fish can be treated with any of the chemicals
> discussed above to correct "Ich" infections. A number
> of commercial preparations are available from pet
> stores which contain one or several of these agents.
> Temperature manipulation is also an effective way to
> control "Ich" in home aquariums. This technique is
> often not practical for commercial fish farms, but is
> advantageous for the hobbyist because expensive
> products do not have to be purchased and it is safer
> for some of the delicate species which are popular in
> community tanks. Water temperature can be
> gradually raised to 90°F, maintained there for 24
> hours, and then gradually dropped to 70°F for 48
> hours. The infective juveniles (tomites) will be killed
> while the water temperature is at 90°. When the
> temperature is dropped the adult organisms will fall
> off the fish and begin to reproduce. As the young
> begin to emerge 48 hours later, the temperature is
> again raised to 90°F, causing them to die. Repeating
> this process continuously (24 hours at 90° F
> followed by 48 hours at 70° F) for two weeks should
> control the disease. Cleaning the tank every second
> day will help remove cysts before they rupture and
> therefore help to prevent completion of the life cycle.
> If you decide to use temperature to control "Ich" in
> your home aquarium be sure that the type of fish in
> your tank can tolerate the temperature extremes
> involved."
>
> The above is from the following source:
>
> This document is CIR920, one of a series of the Fisheries and Aquatic
> Sciences Department, Florida Cooperative Extension Service, Institute
> of Food and Agricultural Sciences, University of Florida. Original
> publication date March, 1991. Reviewed July, 2002. Visit the EDIS Web
> Site at
> http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu.Please visit the FAIRS Web site at
> http://hammock.ifas.ufl.edu.
>
> Ruth Francis-Floyd, IFAS ExtensionVeterinarian, Department of Large
> Animal Clinical Sciences, and Peggy Reed, Biological Scientist,
> Department of Large Animal Clinical Sciences and Department of
> Fisheries and Aquatic Sciences; Cooperative Extension Service,
> Institute of Food and Agricultural Sciences, University of Florida,
> Gainesville, 32611.

Thanks for the info. I just want to add (in case anyone will be trying
heat as a cure), that while most healthy fish will tolerate 90F (even
leaving it at 90F for 2 weeks), that during this period there will be
less O2 in the water (hot water drives out O2). The combination of heat
increasing their metabolism and the lower O2 can be fatal to a diseased
and weakened fish. Keeping a lower fish load and using airstones will
help the O2 levels. Ironically, this is a treatment most healthy fish
will tolerate, but healthy fish rarely get Ich. ymmv
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Gill Passman]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
> "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
> .. .
> >
> > "NetMax" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote...
> >> > "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote...
> >> >> "Nikki Casali" > wrote...
> >> >> > Gill Passman wrote:
> >> >> > > "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote...
> >> >> > >>"2pods" > wrote
> >>
> >> <snip>
> >> I will break down the tank in question again and
> >> > sterilise everything again - the thought keeps crossing my mind that
> >> > this
> >> > tank is unlucky (it was my son's death tank a few months ago) - I
> >> > bleached
> >> > it and thoroughly cleaned it before setting it up again and despite
> >> > my
> >> > habit
> >> > of saying pl*co I'm not really superstisious...
> >> > very sad
> >> > Gill
> >>
> >> I've heard than re-siliconing a tank with the anti-fungal silicone
> >> will
> >> do it (mysterious death tank). I believe it, as these fungicides
> >> should
> >> be noticeably toxic in small tanks.
> >> --
> >> www.NetMax.tk
> >>
> >>
> > I rinsed, bleached, rinsed and rinsed the tank before using it - it had
> > been
> > out of use for quite a few months before that. I'll take a look for the
> > silicone next time I'm at the LFS - it's probably going to be a few
> > days/weeks before the tank is in use again.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Gill
>
>
> If the tank was built or re-built with the wrong silicone (a type with
> fungicide or anti-bacterial agents) then there isn't anything that you
> can really do, other than throw it away. You cannot visibly see the
> difference. GE Window & Door clear silicone is identical to GE Bathroom
> clear silicone, but the latter has fungicides.
>
> I'm sorry you lost a batch of Clowns. For over a year, I tried to set up
> a 100g species tank of Clown loaches, but since they weren't going to be
> for sale (and would generate no direct revenue) I had to take my time and
> wait to find them at a good price (it's seasonal). I went through many
> batches, some were too small (sold them), others were medium sized (died)
> and I even broke down and bought large ones (quickly succumbed to
> velvet). It was a very frustrating experience, and unlike you, I had a
> wealth of medications, quarantine tanks and a staff at my disposal (and I
> still didn't do much better than you).
> --
> www.NetMax.tk
>
>
The tank is a Rena and I haven't touched the silicone. I've just emptied it
out and am in the process of cleaning everything with a bleach solution. I
set up the 5 gall using tank water from my main Community Tank plus around
20% fresh water. I stole some of the filter medium from my Betta tank as I
wasn't sure how many parasites would be living in the media from the other
tank. Unfortunately one of the Neons did not make the transfer :-( - I guess
the shock on an already weak fish was too much.

I don't know if I should tempt fate but the other three Clowns (that I
foolishly put straight into the Community tank) are doing really well. I
think I will stick to just the three rather than going through all this
again (for now at least). You asked in another post about the source of the
Clowns. Although they came from different branches of the same place I've
been thinking about it and potentially they come from a different supplier -
the Clowns in one are always larger than those in the other....just
speculation....

Clowns are amazing fish and I hate to see or read about losses. They do seem
to be difficult to get through the initial stages of keeping them :-(
Wouldn't really want not to have any in one of the tanks though....fingers
crossed for the other three (had them over two weeks now)

Gill

[Elaine T]

Derek W. Benson wrote:
> On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 00:14:09 +0200, Derek W. Benson >
> wrote:
>
>
>>A couple other somewhat interesting things I wanted to mention or
>>quote here, but it's past my bedtime so I'll come back to it tomorrow.
>>-Derek
>
>
> For those of us (myself, for example) who tend to raise the
> temperature on a tank to speed up the Ich life cycle and hopefully
> remove an Ich infestation without meds, here was an interesting bit:
>
> "Special Considerations for
> Treatment of Pet Fish
>
> "Pet fish can be treated with any of the chemicals
> discussed above to correct "Ich" infections. A number
> of commercial preparations are available from pet
> stores which contain one or several of these agents.
> Temperature manipulation is also an effective way to
> control "Ich" in home aquariums. This technique is
> often not practical for commercial fish farms, but is
> advantageous for the hobbyist because expensive
> products do not have to be purchased and it is safer
> for some of the delicate species which are popular in
> community tanks. Water temperature can be
> gradually raised to 90°F, maintained there for 24
> hours, and then gradually dropped to 70°F for 48
> hours. The infective juveniles (tomites) will be killed
> while the water temperature is at 90°. When the
> temperature is dropped the adult organisms will fall
> off the fish and begin to reproduce. As the young
> begin to emerge 48 hours later, the temperature is
> again raised to 90°F, causing them to die. Repeating
> this process continuously (24 hours at 90° F
> followed by 48 hours at 70° F) for two weeks should
> control the disease. Cleaning the tank every second
> day will help remove cysts before they rupture and
> therefore help to prevent completion of the life cycle.
> If you decide to use temperature to control "Ich" in
> your home aquarium be sure that the type of fish in
> your tank can tolerate the temperature extremes
> involved."
>
> The above is from the following source:
>
> This document is CIR920, one of a series of the Fisheries and Aquatic
> Sciences Department, Florida Cooperative Extension Service, Institute
> of Food and Agricultural Sciences, University of Florida. Original
> publication date March, 1991. Reviewed July, 2002. Visit the EDIS Web
> Site at
> http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu.Please visit the FAIRS Web site at
> http://hammock.ifas.ufl.edu.
>
> Ruth Francis-Floyd, IFAS ExtensionVeterinarian, Department of Large
> Animal Clinical Sciences, and Peggy Reed, Biological Scientist,
> Department of Large Animal Clinical Sciences and Department of
> Fisheries and Aquatic Sciences; Cooperative Extension Service,
> Institute of Food and Agricultural Sciences, University of Florida,
> Gainesville, 32611.

Nice find! I've known to bump up temps for a long time, and have killed
off ich by maintaining a tank at 86F for two weeks (using the additional
aeration NetMax mentioned). I've never seen a recommendation to cycle
it from high to low before, but I bet that's much easier on aquatic plants.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Gill Passman]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
...
> Derek W. Benson wrote:
> > On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 00:14:09 +0200, Derek W. Benson >
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >>A couple other somewhat interesting things I wanted to mention or
> >>quote here, but it's past my bedtime so I'll come back to it tomorrow.
> >>-Derek
> >
> >
> > For those of us (myself, for example) who tend to raise the
> > temperature on a tank to speed up the Ich life cycle and hopefully
> > remove an Ich infestation without meds, here was an interesting bit:
> >
> > "Special Considerations for
> > Treatment of Pet Fish
> >
> > "Pet fish can be treated with any of the chemicals
> > discussed above to correct "Ich" infections. A number
> > of commercial preparations are available from pet
> > stores which contain one or several of these agents.
> > Temperature manipulation is also an effective way to
> > control "Ich" in home aquariums. This technique is
> > often not practical for commercial fish farms, but is
> > advantageous for the hobbyist because expensive
> > products do not have to be purchased and it is safer
> > for some of the delicate species which are popular in
> > community tanks. Water temperature can be
> > gradually raised to 90°F, maintained there for 24
> > hours, and then gradually dropped to 70°F for 48
> > hours. The infective juveniles (tomites) will be killed
> > while the water temperature is at 90°. When the
> > temperature is dropped the adult organisms will fall
> > off the fish and begin to reproduce. As the young
> > begin to emerge 48 hours later, the temperature is
> > again raised to 90°F, causing them to die. Repeating
> > this process continuously (24 hours at 90° F
> > followed by 48 hours at 70° F) for two weeks should
> > control the disease. Cleaning the tank every second
> > day will help remove cysts before they rupture and
> > therefore help to prevent completion of the life cycle.
> > If you decide to use temperature to control "Ich" in
> > your home aquarium be sure that the type of fish in
> > your tank can tolerate the temperature extremes
> > involved."
> >
> > The above is from the following source:
> >
> > This document is CIR920, one of a series of the Fisheries and Aquatic
> > Sciences Department, Florida Cooperative Extension Service, Institute
> > of Food and Agricultural Sciences, University of Florida. Original
> > publication date March, 1991. Reviewed July, 2002. Visit the EDIS Web
> > Site at
> > http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu.Please visit the FAIRS Web site at
> > http://hammock.ifas.ufl.edu.
> >
> > Ruth Francis-Floyd, IFAS ExtensionVeterinarian, Department of Large
> > Animal Clinical Sciences, and Peggy Reed, Biological Scientist,
> > Department of Large Animal Clinical Sciences and Department of
> > Fisheries and Aquatic Sciences; Cooperative Extension Service,
> > Institute of Food and Agricultural Sciences, University of Florida,
> > Gainesville, 32611.
>
> Nice find! I've known to bump up temps for a long time, and have killed
> off ich by maintaining a tank at 86F for two weeks (using the additional
> aeration NetMax mentioned). I've never seen a recommendation to cycle
> it from high to low before, but I bet that's much easier on aquatic
plants.
>
> --
> Elaine T __
> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

The whole thing sounds better than adding chemicals that give dubious
results but I'm always to chicken to experiment....I have certainly read
about similar ways of dealing with Ich without the temp fluctuations....

BTW down to 3 Neons - with the question that how in the world can you lose a
dead neon in a bare 5 gall tank? Found it in the end after hunting for an
hour.....explains a lot about disappearing tetras....

I've dosed them with more Interpet Anti White Spot - I'm not convinced now
that it is Ich but it contains the same active ingredients as Protozin. I've
also bleached and rinsed the original tank and all its contents - had to set
it up again because I wasn't going to risk putting the plants in any other
tank and couldn't quite bring myself to bin them - treated with bleach
solution. From my understanding, if I leave it fishless for 2 weeks or so
then any remaining chance of parasites will have gone (however, I do think
that the bleach would have finished them off anyhow). Have swopped out the
filter for a Fluval 2 because the water quality issue is niggling at me in
both it being "Matt's death tank" and what has just happened....I know when
Matt's fish died the water quality wasn't an issue in the end but I
certainly think it might have contributed here...better to address any
concerns than run uneccessary risks. I'm a little apprehensive of ever
putting fish back in there but will do it very slowly without any risk
takes - the filter/tank will be seeded as and when the new fish go in - very
slowly.

Thanks everyone for all your help and support plus the great debate and info
that everyone digs up - it is this sort of debate that will move us on in
caring for our fish :-)

Gill

[Daniel Morrow]

"Derek W. Benson" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 00:42:16 +0100, Nikki Casali
> > wrote:
>
> >Gill Passman wrote:
> >
> >> Two of them have now died. One strangely enough had good colour and no
> >> spots - the other one was covered.
> >
> >Achhh! Mine died in full colour. Although one looked like skin was
> >starting to slough off. Horrible.
> >
> >These were taken last September. They show two Clowns covered in very
> >fine salt grains. I wasn't sure whether they were hit by both ich and
> >velvet.
> >http://www.ncasali.demon.co.uk/index.html
> >
> >Nikki
>
> From your description and the photos I'd say that the Clowns (NiKKi's
> Clowns I'm talking about!) did not have Ich, but Oodinium pillularis
> or "pillularis disease". I don't like this common name and would
> prefer to dub this illness "grey velvet". It is a relative of velvet,
> Oodinium limneticum, which has the golden color to the powder spots.
> The illness is described in Peter Hunnam's book The Living Aquarium.
>
> Some years back I had 4 Texas Cichlids which contracted this illness,
> one after one. They had patches of the grey powder spots, and the skin
> started peeling off in a very short time, like after 24-36 hours.
> Shortly thereafter each fish died.
>
> -Derek

Fascinating - anyone know of any cures/treatments for "gray velvet"?

[NetMax]

"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
>
> "Derek W. Benson" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 00:42:16 +0100, Nikki Casali
>> > wrote:
>>
<snip>
>
> Think I've lost another Neon....priority is to get these moved this
> morning....
>
> Gill


From the perspective of treating diseases, Neons are comparable to
Clowns. Half-treatment dosage and the odds of survival are poor (unless
they are well acclimated). Neons are the canaries of the fish-world, but
ime, they are still more hardy than Clowns. The frustrating part about
Neons is that the time period of symptoms is often so brief as to be
missed. Large fish lose vitality and go through a sequence of symptoms,
while small fish like Neons seem to go from happy-smiling to dead in a
few breaths!
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Derek W. Benson]

On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 16:04:12 -0700, "Daniel Morrow"
> wrote:

>"Derek W. Benson" > wrote in message
...
>> From your description and the photos I'd say that the Clowns (NiKKi's
>> Clowns I'm talking about!) did not have Ich, but Oodinium pillularis
>> or "pillularis disease". I don't like this common name and would
>> prefer to dub this illness "grey velvet". It is a relative of velvet,
>> Oodinium limneticum, which has the golden color to the powder spots.
>> The illness is described in Peter Hunnam's book The Living Aquarium.
>>
>> Some years back I had 4 Texas Cichlids which contracted this illness,
>> one after one. They had patches of the grey powder spots, and the skin
>> started peeling off in a very short time, like after 24-36 hours.
>> Shortly thereafter each fish died.
>>
>> -Derek
>
>Fascinating - anyone know of any cures/treatments for "gray velvet"?
>
Mr. Hunnam writes that one can try methylene blue, malachite green,
acriflavine, Neguvon, copper sulphate. This is the same as for Velvet.
So a Velvet medication, more or less.

-Derek

[Gill Passman]

"Derek W. Benson" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 16:04:12 -0700, "Daniel Morrow"
> > wrote:
>
> >"Derek W. Benson" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> From your description and the photos I'd say that the Clowns (NiKKi's
> >> Clowns I'm talking about!) did not have Ich, but Oodinium pillularis
> >> or "pillularis disease". I don't like this common name and would
> >> prefer to dub this illness "grey velvet". It is a relative of velvet,
> >> Oodinium limneticum, which has the golden color to the powder spots.
> >> The illness is described in Peter Hunnam's book The Living Aquarium.
> >>
> >> Some years back I had 4 Texas Cichlids which contracted this illness,
> >> one after one. They had patches of the grey powder spots, and the skin
> >> started peeling off in a very short time, like after 24-36 hours.
> >> Shortly thereafter each fish died.
> >>
> >> -Derek
> >
> >Fascinating - anyone know of any cures/treatments for "gray velvet"?
> >
> Mr. Hunnam writes that one can try methylene blue, malachite green,
> acriflavine, Neguvon, copper sulphate. This is the same as for Velvet.
> So a Velvet medication, more or less.
>
> -Derek

Protozin also claims to treat velvet as well as Ich.....in this case it
didn't :-(

3 remaining Neons doing well still (fingers crossed) but are a bit confused
by seeing the reflection at the bottom of the tank...

Gill

[Elaine T]

Derek W. Benson wrote:
> On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 16:04:12 -0700, "Daniel Morrow"
> > wrote:
>
>
>>"Derek W. Benson" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>>From your description and the photos I'd say that the Clowns (NiKKi's
>>>Clowns I'm talking about!) did not have Ich, but Oodinium pillularis
>>>or "pillularis disease". I don't like this common name and would
>>>prefer to dub this illness "grey velvet". It is a relative of velvet,
>>>Oodinium limneticum, which has the golden color to the powder spots.
>>>The illness is described in Peter Hunnam's book The Living Aquarium.
>>>
>>>Some years back I had 4 Texas Cichlids which contracted this illness,
>>>one after one. They had patches of the grey powder spots, and the skin
>>>started peeling off in a very short time, like after 24-36 hours.
>>>Shortly thereafter each fish died.
>>>
>>>-Derek
>>
>>Fascinating - anyone know of any cures/treatments for "gray velvet"?
>>
>
> Mr. Hunnam writes that one can try methylene blue, malachite green,
> acriflavine, Neguvon, copper sulphate. This is the same as for Velvet.
> So a Velvet medication, more or less.
>
> -Derek

Interestingly, Untergasser names Oodinium pillularis as "velvet" and
only mentions Oodinium limneticum in passing. He talks about skin
falling off in pieces as your reference does, Derek. At the time he
wrote the book, O. limneticum was only found in North America. He
suggests heat treatment, quinine or copper sulfate. Velvet is also
photosynthetic when it leaves the host, so darkening the tank is
supposed to be helpful.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com