Clown Loaches Nibbling On Dwarf Gouramis

[Brad]

What in the world is going on???

Maybe two weeks ago, we had lost a CL. My wife finally discovered him stuck
in a hole in a rock. Horrible death, I suspect.

Early last week I discovered a dead cory dead in the bottom of the tank. He
appeared a little fat, but the scales didn't indicated dropsy.

Late last week my wife pointed out a DG with a sore on its side, perhaps
dime-size. I set up the Quarantine tank and dropped the DG in it. He wasn't
eating anything that we could tell, for a few days.

Then, I discovered a cory with a bulging eye. Yesterday I dropped him in the
Q tank with the DG. Tonight, on my way home, I stopped by the LFS to discuss
the matter. I was told the bulging eye could be caused by trauma (bumping
into something, scratching it on stuff in the tank, etc).

When I got home, the Q tank residents were having a terrible go of it. The
DG was nearly up-side-down and gasping at the surface. Occasionally, it was
able to right itself and swim, but not energetically. The cory was at the
bottom of the tank, also up-side-down, but alive.

I have euthanized the two sick fish.

Now, my wife and I have witnessed a CL apparently nibbling on another DG,
and the DG has a sore on its side. Which came first, the sore or the
nibbling, I don't know.

Shall I treat for fungus? Shall I remove the CLs? Other fish in the aquarium
seem OK.

Here's what I have:
Tank was setup 7 months ago, fish and adornments were added incrementally
over 7 months.
150 Gallons
well water (tested at setup 6 months ago and was free of ites/ates/ammonia)
pH around 7+
weekly water changes of 25%+
sump tank with bio balls
10 gpm pump

Current inhabitants:
7 Angels
10 Cardinal Tetras
3 Hemiodus
7 Cories
2 Plecos
3 Dwarf Gouramis
4 Clown Loaches
3 Bala Sharks
10 Roberts Tetras (Roberts may not be a species, but that's how they were
sold to me)

Take a look at the aquarium setup and the sick DG at
http://s87219637.onlinehome.us/

Thanks for reading this, and I look forward to your help.

Brad.

[Elaine T]

Brad wrote:
> What in the world is going on???
>
> Maybe two weeks ago, we had lost a CL. My wife finally discovered him stuck
> in a hole in a rock. Horrible death, I suspect.
>
> Early last week I discovered a dead cory dead in the bottom of the tank. He
> appeared a little fat, but the scales didn't indicated dropsy.
>
> Late last week my wife pointed out a DG with a sore on its side, perhaps
> dime-size. I set up the Quarantine tank and dropped the DG in it. He wasn't
> eating anything that we could tell, for a few days.
>
> Then, I discovered a cory with a bulging eye. Yesterday I dropped him in the
> Q tank with the DG. Tonight, on my way home, I stopped by the LFS to discuss
> the matter. I was told the bulging eye could be caused by trauma (bumping
> into something, scratching it on stuff in the tank, etc).
>
> When I got home, the Q tank residents were having a terrible go of it. The
> DG was nearly up-side-down and gasping at the surface. Occasionally, it was
> able to right itself and swim, but not energetically. The cory was at the
> bottom of the tank, also up-side-down, but alive.
>
> I have euthanized the two sick fish.
>
> Now, my wife and I have witnessed a CL apparently nibbling on another DG,
> and the DG has a sore on its side. Which came first, the sore or the
> nibbling, I don't know.
>
> Shall I treat for fungus? Shall I remove the CLs? Other fish in the aquarium
> seem OK.
>
> Here's what I have:
> Tank was setup 7 months ago, fish and adornments were added incrementally
> over 7 months.
> 150 Gallons
> well water (tested at setup 6 months ago and was free of ites/ates/ammonia)
> pH around 7+
> weekly water changes of 25%+
> sump tank with bio balls
> 10 gpm pump
>
> Current inhabitants:
> 7 Angels
> 10 Cardinal Tetras
> 3 Hemiodus
> 7 Cories
> 2 Plecos
> 3 Dwarf Gouramis
> 4 Clown Loaches
> 3 Bala Sharks
> 10 Roberts Tetras (Roberts may not be a species, but that's how they were
> sold to me)
>
> Take a look at the aquarium setup and the sick DG at
> http://s87219637.onlinehome.us/
>
> Thanks for reading this, and I look forward to your help.
>
> Brad.
>
>
>

Poor gourami. I'm going to toss some ideas out, all of which may be
completely wrong. All the fish dead from different causes is confusing.

I'd net the gourami and treat his wounds with Neosporin to keep them
from getting infected. Quarantine him, of course. He might need to be
treated again in 48 hours since those sores look pretty deep. The fate
of your other quarantined fish is disturbing, but they may have been too
badly injured to heal. Be sure to use water from your main tank to
start the quarantine to avoid shocking the already weakened fish.

I've never seen any of the fish you have cause wounds like that. A
killer clown loach would be unusual. The other thing that can cause
sores are bacterial infections but there's usually more redness. This
looks more like trauma. Kind of like he got stuck somewhere really
tight and had to lose skin wriggling free.

Is there anything abrasive like tuffa or lava rock in the tank? Or any
really tight spaces between rocks or between a rock, heater, or filter
and the glass?

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Sue]

Are the bioballs the only media in the sump?
Are you adding any chemicals?

Please test your tank water as I suspect you have had an ammonia and/or
nitrite spike.

This will leave the fish vulnerable to infection & they may flick - which
can cause the grazing.
Clown loaches will nibble on wounds.

Did you move a filter into the quarantine tank?

BTW I could do with a better picture but are your unknown tetras bleeding
hearts?

[Mary Burns]

"Brad" > wrote in message
. ..
> What in the world is going on???
>
> Maybe two weeks ago, we had lost a CL. My wife finally discovered him
> stuck
> in a hole in a rock. Horrible death, I suspect.
>
> Early last week I discovered a dead cory dead in the bottom of the tank.
> He
> appeared a little fat, but the scales didn't indicated dropsy.
>
> Late last week my wife pointed out a DG with a sore on its side, perhaps
> dime-size. I set up the Quarantine tank and dropped the DG in it. He
> wasn't
> eating anything that we could tell, for a few days.
>
> Then, I discovered a cory with a bulging eye. Yesterday I dropped him in
> the
> Q tank with the DG. Tonight, on my way home, I stopped by the LFS to
> discuss
> the matter. I was told the bulging eye could be caused by trauma (bumping
> into something, scratching it on stuff in the tank, etc).
>
> When I got home, the Q tank residents were having a terrible go of it. The
> DG was nearly up-side-down and gasping at the surface. Occasionally, it
> was
> able to right itself and swim, but not energetically. The cory was at the
> bottom of the tank, also up-side-down, but alive.
>
> I have euthanized the two sick fish.
>
> Now, my wife and I have witnessed a CL apparently nibbling on another DG,
> and the DG has a sore on its side. Which came first, the sore or the
> nibbling, I don't know.
>
> Shall I treat for fungus? Shall I remove the CLs? Other fish in the
> aquarium
> seem OK.
>
> Here's what I have:
> Tank was setup 7 months ago, fish and adornments were added incrementally
> over 7 months.
> 150 Gallons
> well water (tested at setup 6 months ago and was free of
> ites/ates/ammonia)
> pH around 7+
> weekly water changes of 25%+
> sump tank with bio balls
> 10 gpm pump
>
> Current inhabitants:
> 7 Angels
> 10 Cardinal Tetras
> 3 Hemiodus
> 7 Cories
> 2 Plecos
> 3 Dwarf Gouramis
> 4 Clown Loaches
> 3 Bala Sharks
> 10 Roberts Tetras (Roberts may not be a species, but that's how they were
> sold to me)
>
> Take a look at the aquarium setup and the sick DG at
> http://s87219637.onlinehome.us/
>
> Thanks for reading this, and I look forward to your help.
>
> Brad.
>
I have read a very similar problem on

> http://www.loaches.com/index.html, the interactive forum part, where the
> clowns were nippling platies/tetra. Your aquarium looks as if can be
> viewed from both sides, and not heavily planted. Clowns need to feel safe
> more than other fish, need lots of plants/hidey holes. Without a "back",
> they are out in open all the time. My 8 love the front of the tank but
> love tramping through all the plants and running along the back. My plants
> are all 2" from the back, giving them a safe and secure feeling. They have
> a castle ornament on left to sleep in, huge tree trunk in middle, smaller
> home on right, and lots of plants inbetween. Your mix of fish may be
> stressful for any of them. Your have sharks/plecs/clowns/cories on bottom,
> 20 tetra can be nippy for 7 angels. The angels will pair up as they reach
> 6 to 9 months, stressing everyone. Gourami and angels do not always get
> along. When angels don't get along, the size of tank is irrevelant, as
> they can dominate any size quite easily. I have removed my angels from my
> tank as it all became too stressful for the others when they spawned,
> chasing everyone to protect their eggs. With 7 angels it is only a matter
> of time when this will happen. My 8 clowns are now with female platies,
> (even the male platies chasing was too much for clowns) They are the
> dominant fish with calm female platies and it works very well, out all
> day, happy and active.
Please post on the clown forum as some they have 8 or 9" clowns and really
have lots of very good advice. Mary
>

[Mary Burns]

"Mary Burns" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Brad" > wrote in message
> . ..
>> What in the world is going on???
>>
>> Maybe two weeks ago, we had lost a CL. My wife finally discovered him
>> stuck
>> in a hole in a rock. Horrible death, I suspect.
>>
>> Early last week I discovered a dead cory dead in the bottom of the tank.
>> He
>> appeared a little fat, but the scales didn't indicated dropsy.
>>
>> Late last week my wife pointed out a DG with a sore on its side, perhaps
>> dime-size. I set up the Quarantine tank and dropped the DG in it. He
>> wasn't
>> eating anything that we could tell, for a few days.
>>
>> Then, I discovered a cory with a bulging eye. Yesterday I dropped him in
>> the
>> Q tank with the DG. Tonight, on my way home, I stopped by the LFS to
>> discuss
>> the matter. I was told the bulging eye could be caused by trauma (bumping
>> into something, scratching it on stuff in the tank, etc).
>>
>> When I got home, the Q tank residents were having a terrible go of it.
>> The
>> DG was nearly up-side-down and gasping at the surface. Occasionally, it
>> was
>> able to right itself and swim, but not energetically. The cory was at the
>> bottom of the tank, also up-side-down, but alive.
>>
>> I have euthanized the two sick fish.
>>
>> Now, my wife and I have witnessed a CL apparently nibbling on another DG,
>> and the DG has a sore on its side. Which came first, the sore or the
>> nibbling, I don't know.
>>
>> Shall I treat for fungus? Shall I remove the CLs? Other fish in the
>> aquarium
>> seem OK.
>>
>> Here's what I have:
>> Tank was setup 7 months ago, fish and adornments were added incrementally
>> over 7 months.
>> 150 Gallons
>> well water (tested at setup 6 months ago and was free of
>> ites/ates/ammonia)
>> pH around 7+
>> weekly water changes of 25%+
>> sump tank with bio balls
>> 10 gpm pump
>>
>> Current inhabitants:
>> 7 Angels
>> 10 Cardinal Tetras
>> 3 Hemiodus
>> 7 Cories
>> 2 Plecos
>> 3 Dwarf Gouramis
>> 4 Clown Loaches
>> 3 Bala Sharks
>> 10 Roberts Tetras (Roberts may not be a species, but that's how they were
>> sold to me)
>>
>> Take a look at the aquarium setup and the sick DG at
>> http://s87219637.onlinehome.us/
>>
>> Thanks for reading this, and I look forward to your help.
>>
>> Brad.
>>
> I have read a very similar problem on
>
>> http://www.loaches.com/index.html, the interactive forum part, where the
>> clowns were nippling platies/tetra. Your aquarium looks as if can be
>> viewed from both sides, and not heavily planted. Clowns need to feel safe
>> more than other fish, need lots of plants/hidey holes. Without a "back",
>> they are out in open all the time. My 8 love the front of the tank but
>> love tramping through all the plants and running along the back. My
>> plants are all 2" from the back, giving them a safe and secure feeling.
>> They have a castle ornament on left to sleep in, huge tree trunk in
>> middle, smaller home on right, and lots of plants inbetween. Your mix of
>> fish may be stressful for any of them. Your have
>> sharks/plecs/clowns/cories on bottom, 20 tetra can be nippy for 7 angels.
>> The angels will pair up as they reach 6 to 9 months, stressing everyone.
>> Gourami and angels do not always get along. When angels don't get along,
>> the size of tank is irrevelant, as they can dominate any size quite
>> easily. I have removed my angels from my tank as it all became too
>> stressful for the others when they spawned, chasing everyone to protect
>> their eggs. With 7 angels it is only a matter of time when this will
>> happen. My 8 clowns are now with female platies, (even the male platies
>> chasing was too much for clowns) They are the dominant fish with calm
>> female platies and it works very well, out all day, happy and active.
> Please post on the clown forum as some they have 8 or 9" clowns and really
> have lots of very good advice.
>>
> How about adding a backing to about a quarter of the length from one end,
> making it a cosy corner for the clowns, a home to sleep in, more plants.
> The balas are also skittish and may like that end too. More plants make it
> darker for clowns as too much light bothers them, making them more
> nocturnal even when young. Mary
>

[Dr Engelbert Buxbaum]

Brad wrote:

> Here's what I have:
> Tank was setup 7 months ago, fish and adornments were added incrementally
> over 7 months.
> 150 Gallons
> well water (tested at setup 6 months ago and was free of ites/ates/ammonia)
> pH around 7+
> weekly water changes of 25%+
> sump tank with bio balls
> 10 gpm pump
>
> Current inhabitants:
> 7 Angels
> 10 Cardinal Tetras
> 3 Hemiodus
> 7 Cories
> 2 Plecos
> 3 Dwarf Gouramis
> 4 Clown Loaches
> 3 Bala Sharks
> 10 Roberts Tetras (Roberts may not be a species, but that's how they were
> sold to me)

The fact that the water did not contain NH4/NO2/NO3 at setup time does
not mean that it doesn't now. Fishes produce ammonia as waste product of
their metabolism, which is oxydised by bacteria in the filter first to
nitrite and then to nitrate. The bacteria producing nitrite usually grow
quite fast, those oxydising it to nitrate grow slower. Plants remove
nitrogen - preferably ammonia - from the water as nutrient.

Thus you can get complicated profiles of nitrogen compounds each time
you add or remove fishes or plants, as the bacterial population in your
filter adapts to the changing food supply. Monitoring of these compounds
and partial water changes can avoid problems.

Your description of the behaviour of the fishes in the quarantaine tank
sounds very much like nitrite poissoning. Since presumably you set up
the q-tank fresh (and without using filter material from the main tank)
concentrations of NH4 and NO2 rose quickly, killing the (already
weakend) fish.

Of course that does not necessarily explain why they became sick in the
first place. However, nitrite mini spikes during the setup periode may
have played at least a contributory role. Additionally, fishes can be
very vulnerable to opportunistic infections when bought, breeding in
Asian turbo-farms, capture and transport to exporter, importer and lfs,
cramped conditions in lfs tanks all weaken their immune system. A sick
new arrival may well infect his new tank mates. With new tanks I
therefore prefere a fishless cycle, followed by planting and a week or
so later adding all the fish at the same time. Thus they are
quarantained in their final tank.

Establishing cause of death without postmortem is difficult, and without
clear diagnosis treatment is difficult too. If problems persist, it may
be worthwile to fix a victim in 4% formaldehyde (aka methanal, formalin;
careful: toxic) within 30 min of death and deliver it for investigation
to a qualified lab. Here in Germany we have veterinary examination
offices who perform such service, in your place the system may be
different.

In the mean time I'd suggest more unspecific remedies: Regular water
changes and may be the addition of slime coat protecting agents and/or
general tonics like melafix to the water. If quarantaining fish becomes
necessary, slowly add 0.1 to 0.3% salt (not iodinated) to the water in
the q-tank to ease metabolic demand on the fish. I have made good
experience with medicated food (TetraMedica, contains tetracycline) in
quarantaine at least to prevent opportunistic infections. Of course that
helps only if the fish is feeding. Plenty of plants both in the main and
q-tank are good for fishes for several reasons.

I have never seen clown loaches attack other fish, but like most other
fish they are scavengers and may pray upon the moribund. For CL 4 is a
rather low number, adding 2 more (after your current problems are
solved) will make them feel more secure. Do you have hiding places for
them (coconut shells, pipes, caves)? Also having swimming plants
(Riccia, Azolla, Lemna) in one corner as protection from above may help.

Hope things work out