newish pond

[[email protected]]

hey all, we built a 3-3.5k gal pond this year and it's been up and
running for about 6 weeks. we have it piped through a ultimate fluid
art filtration system (rated for 5k). it's got the vortex, bead
filtration, uv (36w), etc. the pond gets full sun and algae has been
an issue since the first week. i have about 20 koi in there now
(4"-10") and they seem ok. i'm thinking of dropping a stronger uv in
there but have noticed that some of the fish are feeding on the algae
and all are always hungry (i swear i could feed them, turn around and
feed them again 30 mins later). they are growing quite well (all were
about 4-5" when i got them and some have doubled in size in this time
frame). PH has peaked in the low 8's during the day dropping back to
mid-high 7's at night.

should i be concerned and go with the larger uv? also, how often
should one be backflushing the system? i've done it a few times now
and it didn't seem too bad. shouldn't the system be taking care of the
algae yet?

[Reel Mckoi]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> hey all, we built a 3-3.5k gal pond this year and it's been up and
> running for about 6 weeks. we have it piped through a ultimate fluid
> art filtration system (rated for 5k). it's got the vortex, bead
> filtration, uv (36w), etc. the pond gets full sun and algae has been
> an issue since the first week. i have about 20 koi in there now
> (4"-10") and they seem ok. i'm thinking of dropping a stronger uv in
> there but have noticed that some of the fish are feeding on the algae
> and all are always hungry (i swear i could feed them, turn around and
> feed them again 30 mins later). they are growing quite well (all were
> about 4-5" when i got them and some have doubled in size in this time
> frame). PH has peaked in the low 8's during the day dropping back to
> mid-high 7's at night.
>
> should i be concerned and go with the larger uv? also, how often
> should one be backflushing the system? i've done it a few times now
> and it didn't seem too bad. shouldn't the system be taking care of the
> algae yet?
=====================
If you kill off the algae you'll need a lot of pond plants to remove the
nitrates and phosphates that will rapidly build up in the water. You didn't
mention plants or a bog filter. Do you at least have a good size patch of
floaters like water lettuce or water hyacinth? I'm in the USA so have no
idea how large a 3.5k pond is.
--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
EVERYONE: "Please check people's headers for forgeries
before flushing." NAMES ARE BEING FORGED.
My Pond Page http://tinyurl.com/cuq5b
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>
http://www.hyphenologist.co.uk/killfile/anti_troll_faq.htm
Make sure of which McKoi you're replying to - the TROLL from
alt.religion.jehovahs-witn is using other people's names to bypass
killfiles. There are now TWO Reel McKoi's posting here.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[San Diego Joe]

" wrote:

> hey all, we built a 3-3.5k gal pond this year and it's been up and
> running for about 6 weeks. we have it piped through a ultimate fluid
> art filtration system (rated for 5k). it's got the vortex, bead
> filtration, uv (36w), etc. the pond gets full sun and algae has been
> an issue since the first week. i have about 20 koi in there now
> (4"-10") and they seem ok. i'm thinking of dropping a stronger uv in
> there but have noticed that some of the fish are feeding on the algae
> and all are always hungry (i swear i could feed them, turn around and
> feed them again 30 mins later). they are growing quite well (all were
> about 4-5" when i got them and some have doubled in size in this time
> frame). PH has peaked in the low 8's during the day dropping back to
> mid-high 7's at night.
>
> should i be concerned and go with the larger uv? also, how often
> should one be backflushing the system? i've done it a few times now
> and it didn't seem too bad. shouldn't the system be taking care of the
> algae yet?
>
Where are you located? I had a UV my first year. Now my plants keep my algae
under control year round and my UV is for sale. Algae will be under better
control after your plants have matured. I would at least wait until next
year before plunking down more cash.

San Diego Joe
4,000 - 5,000 Gallons.
Koi, Goldfish, and RES named Colombo.

[[email protected]]

about 1/3 of my pond is covered with plant, mature hyacinths (that
often clog up my skimmer), large and small lilly pads, cattails. 3.5k
= 3500 gal pond ;-)

[Reel Mckoi]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> about 1/3 of my pond is covered with plant, mature hyacinths (that
> often clog up my skimmer), large and small lilly pads, cattails. 3.5k
> = 3500 gal pond ;-)
============================
Then I would say go for the UV lights to get rid of the algae. :-)
--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
EVERYONE: "Please check people's headers for forgeries
before flushing." NAMES ARE BEING FORGED.
My Pond Page http://tinyurl.com/cuq5b
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>
http://www.hyphenologist.co.uk/killfile/anti_troll_faq.htm

[Paul in Redland]

Nix on the larger UV, provide shade to the pond either directly or with
lilies, parrot feather etc. What is your plant situation like? More is
better. Lots of plants will use up the available nutrients in the water and
literally starve the algae. Remember when you feed the fish, you're really
adding plant fertilizer to the water, it just has to pass through the fish
first. My suggestion is to feed the fish minimally, they'll be fine, shade
the pond some and add more plants. Then just wait, maybe even a year. Oh,
your fish load is OK for now, but as the koi grow to size, you will need to
have fewer fish. 20 full size koi will be too many for a pond your size. (
Pause while I put my flame suit on ) Some would say 20 koi would be alright,
but you already have water quality issues. Koi really need 200+ gallons per
fish in a well balanced pond.
Just my $.02, feel free to spend it as you like,

Paul

[[email protected]]

How often are you guys feeding your fish? I do so once in the morning
and again once in the evening. About 3 handfuls per feeding.
Financially speaking, I wouldn't mind toning it down some ;-)

Though I do enjoy the respite in the morning watching them eat.

[Reel Mckoi]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> How often are you guys feeding your fish? I do so once in the morning
> and again once in the evening. About 3 handfuls per feeding.
> Financially speaking, I wouldn't mind toning it down some ;-)

## Don't buy the overpriced koi/GF foods. I buy catfish food for $11 per 50
lb bag at a farm store, Tractor Supply Company. This year I bought 20 lbs
of trout chow to add and give them some variety. I also mix in a small
amount of kitten chow with the fish food and feed them twice a day. I have
loads of fish in 2 ponds and an assortment of pools and a 500 gallon tank of
young koi. It costs us no more than $20 to $30 a year in fish food. I also
toss in worms and grubs I find in the garden and compost pile.

> Though I do enjoy the respite in the morning watching them eat.
--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
EVERYONE: "Please check people's headers for forgeries
before flushing." NAMES ARE BEING FORGED.
My Pond Page http://tinyurl.com/cuq5b
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Rodney Pont]

On 25 Aug 2005 13:06:03 -0700, wrote:

>hey all, we built a 3-3.5k gal pond this year and it's been up and
>running for about 6 weeks. we have it piped through a ultimate fluid
>art filtration system (rated for 5k). it's got the vortex, bead
>filtration, uv (36w), etc. the pond gets full sun and algae has been
>an issue since the first week. i have about 20 koi in there now
>(4"-10") and they seem ok. i'm thinking of dropping a stronger uv in
>there but have noticed that some of the fish are feeding on the algae
>and all are always hungry (i swear i could feed them, turn around and
>feed them again 30 mins later). they are growing quite well (all were
>about 4-5" when i got them and some have doubled in size in this time
>frame). PH has peaked in the low 8's during the day dropping back to
>mid-high 7's at night.

What sort of algae is this? You say your fish are eating it so I'm
assuming string algae. This isn't bad providing it doesn't get out of
control and become unsightly. Are you adding potash? A tablespoon a
week per 1000 gallons will help the plants take up the nutrients and
starve the algae out.

>should i be concerned and go with the larger uv? also, how often
>should one be backflushing the system? i've done it a few times now
>and it didn't seem too bad. shouldn't the system be taking care of the
>algae yet?

A uv will only help with green water algae, it has no effect on string
algae since it doesn't go through the uv.

Is your filtration effective? You should be getting solids in the
bottom of the vortex and not on the bottom of your pond and if they are
left in the bacteria will convert them to nitrates and feed the algae.

Some of the bubblebead filters here
http://www.bubblebeadfilters.co.uk/filter_main.html can be put on a
timer to switch the pump off for fifteen minutes every day and a valve
then opens and cleans the beads. You should see dirty water coming out
when you backflush your bead filter and you can safely change 300
gallons in your size of pond a week.

You say you feed three handfuls of food twice a day but how long do
the fish spend eating this? I like to see it all eaten within two
minutes although some people prefer five. Cutting down on the feeding
will certainly help. I'd be happy with your stocking level providing
the about 20 is 20. Stocking at 1000 galloons for the first fish and
then 100 gallons for each other one is what I see recommended in the UK
but you would certainly have fewer problems with Pauls recommendation
of one fish per 200 gallons. A lot of people go well over this
without any problems, especially if they have a vegifilter.

--
Regards - Rodney Pont
The from address exists but is mostly dumped,
please send any emails to the address below
e-mail ngpsm4 (at) infohitsystems (dot) ltd (dot) uk

[[email protected]]

I feed them every jap beetle I happen to come across in our rose bushes
:-)

[[email protected]]

I am unfamiliar with the various algae types but if I had to guess I
would say string. I notice that it floats to the top during the day
and, when the hyancinth aren't stuck in it, the skimmer will swallow it
up. I will try the potash, thanks!

My fish will eat it up (provided they find it) in about 2-3 minutes.
They've pretty much given up on the shyness thing. I'm hoping we'll
see some babies in the spring. Actually the 20 is 19 since one died a
few days ago-- a shy small platinum that never hung with the group and
never ate in the frenzy :-(

I am a bit concerned if the filtration system is doing it's job given
the quality of the water. I went with this system after a bit of
research and have been disappointed with the results so far.

[Derek Broughton]

wrote:

> I feed them every jap beetle I happen to come across in our rose bushes
> :-)

Good one. One of the long-ago regulars here (Jim in JawJa) once took the
bottom out of one of the beetle-pheromone traps, and hung it over the pond.
The male beetles would hit the trap, be momentarily stunned and fall in the
pond - where they were promptly gobbled up.

He figured it was the only way those traps were useful, because otherwise
all they really did was attract _more_ beetles to your garden.
--
derek

[Reel Mckoi]

"Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
...
> wrote:
>
>> I feed them every jap beetle I happen to come across in our rose bushes
>> :-)
>
> Good one. One of the long-ago regulars here (Jim in JawJa) once took the
> bottom out of one of the beetle-pheromone traps, and hung it over the
> pond.
> The male beetles would hit the trap, be momentarily stunned and fall in
> the
> pond - where they were promptly gobbled up.
>
> He figured it was the only way those traps were useful, because otherwise
> all they really did was attract _more_ beetles to your garden.
> --
> derek
===================================
Our neighbor to the west planted a garden and hung beetle traps all around
it. :-) Within days our beetle population dropped by at least 80%. I
think they moved over there. I still have to spray though because we have
too many rosebushes and crape myrtle's to hand pick the beetles.
--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
EVERYONE: "Please check people's headers for forgeries
before flushing." NAMES ARE BEING FORGED.
My Pond Page http://tinyurl.com/cuq5b
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Rodney Pont]

On 26 Aug 2005 03:13:25 -0700, wrote:

>I am unfamiliar with the various algae types but if I had to guess I
>would say string. I notice that it floats to the top during the day
>and, when the hyancinth aren't stuck in it, the skimmer will swallow it
>up. I will try the potash, thanks!

That's string algae or blanket weed, names for the same thing. There
are several different types but you need a microscope to really tell
the difference. A UV only works on the microscopic green water algae so
it's not going to help you with this but without the UV you would
probably have green water :-)

>My fish will eat it up (provided they find it) in about 2-3 minutes.
>They've pretty much given up on the shyness thing. I'm hoping we'll
>see some babies in the spring. Actually the 20 is 19 since one died a
>few days ago-- a shy small platinum that never hung with the group and
>never ate in the frenzy :-(

I've just noticed that you said the pond has only been up and running
for 6 weeks. That's not long enough for the bacteria to get properly
established unless you put some in to get it started so you are lucky
to have only lost one fish.

>I am a bit concerned if the filtration system is doing it's job given
>the quality of the water. I went with this system after a bit of
>research and have been disappointed with the results so far.

It's still a bit early for the system to have settled down but is there
a specific reason that you are disappointed with the filtration other
than the string algae. Presumably you have a bottom drain and the pump
is situated between the vortex and the bead filter. If the pump is
before the vortex it'll just chew up the waste and make it too fine to
settle out.

--
Regards - Rodney Pont
The from address exists but is mostly dumped,
please send any emails to the address below
e-mail ngpsm4 (at) infohitsystems (dot) ltd (dot) uk

[RichToyBox]

Have you tested the KH (Carbonate Hardness) recently? The bead filters use
a lot of carbonates and if they drop, the filter will not be as efficient.
You can raise the KH with baking soda. The KH value should be in excess of
100 and 200 is not unreasonable. If it is running low, the filter will
fail, the pH will crash, and fish will be killed.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> hey all, we built a 3-3.5k gal pond this year and it's been up and
> running for about 6 weeks. we have it piped through a ultimate fluid
> art filtration system (rated for 5k). it's got the vortex, bead
> filtration, uv (36w), etc. the pond gets full sun and algae has been
> an issue since the first week. i have about 20 koi in there now
> (4"-10") and they seem ok. i'm thinking of dropping a stronger uv in
> there but have noticed that some of the fish are feeding on the algae
> and all are always hungry (i swear i could feed them, turn around and
> feed them again 30 mins later). they are growing quite well (all were
> about 4-5" when i got them and some have doubled in size in this time
> frame). PH has peaked in the low 8's during the day dropping back to
> mid-high 7's at night.
>
> should i be concerned and go with the larger uv? also, how often
> should one be backflushing the system? i've done it a few times now
> and it didn't seem too bad. shouldn't the system be taking care of the
> algae yet?
>

[Paul in Redland]

What are you raising there, CATfish???.................You had to know that
was coming!

Paul

"Reel Mckoi" > wrote in message
...
>
> > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>> How often are you guys feeding your fish? I do so once in the morning
>> and again once in the evening. About 3 handfuls per feeding.
>> Financially speaking, I wouldn't mind toning it down some ;-)
>
> ## Don't buy the overpriced koi/GF foods. I buy catfish food for $11 per
> 50 lb bag at a farm store, Tractor Supply Company. This year I bought 20
> lbs of trout chow to add and give them some variety. I also mix in a
> small amount of kitten chow with the fish food and feed them twice a day.
> I have loads of fish in 2 ponds and an assortment of pools and a 500
> gallon tank of young koi. It costs us no more than $20 to $30 a year in
> fish food. I also toss in worms and grubs I find in the garden and
> compost pile.
>
>> Though I do enjoy the respite in the morning watching them eat.
> --
> McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
> EVERYONE: "Please check people's headers for forgeries
> before flushing." NAMES ARE BEING FORGED.
> My Pond Page http://tinyurl.com/cuq5b
> ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>
>

[Reel Mckoi]

"Paul in Redland" > wrote in message
...
> What are you raising there, CATfish???.................You had to know
> that was coming!
>
> Paul
================
With the whiskers on some butterfly koi they may as well be CATfish. :-))
--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
My Pond Page http://tinyurl.com/cuq5b
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

>
> "Reel Mckoi" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> > wrote in message
>> ups.com...
>>> How often are you guys feeding your fish? I do so once in the morning
>>> and again once in the evening. About 3 handfuls per feeding.
>>> Financially speaking, I wouldn't mind toning it down some ;-)
>>
>> ## Don't buy the overpriced koi/GF foods. I buy catfish food for $11 per
>> 50 lb bag at a farm store, Tractor Supply Company. This year I bought 20
>> lbs of trout chow to add and give them some variety. I also mix in a
>> small amount of kitten chow with the fish food and feed them twice a day.
>> I have loads of fish in 2 ponds and an assortment of pools and a 500
>> gallon tank of young koi. It costs us no more than $20 to $30 a year in
>> fish food. I also toss in worms and grubs I find in the garden and
>> compost pile.
>>
>>> Though I do enjoy the respite in the morning watching them eat.
>> --
>> McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
>> EVERYONE: "Please check people's headers for forgeries
>> before flushing." NAMES ARE BEING FORGED.
>> My Pond Page http://tinyurl.com/cuq5b
>> ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>
>>
>
>

[[email protected]]

re: filtration.

It really has to do with the string algae. But with the comments, I'm
thinking it's not the filtration that's the problem for controlling
this. I had assumed incorrectly the water was green as a result of
strings attached to the surfaces of the pond and thus seeing green
through the water, but a recent check this morning in a glass cup, the
water is crystal clear-- though admittedly during the sunny days, there
is a lot of particles floating around (today is cloudy and a bit of
rain).

So if I am to understand correctly, the mechanical filtration is to
keep the water in check (0 nitrates/nitrite and 0 ammonia/green water
through uv). plants for controlling algae nutrients and fluxes with ph
due to oxygen exchange/activity. does that sound correct?

[Rodney Pont]

On 27 Aug 2005 04:45:16 -0700, wrote:

>So if I am to understand correctly, the mechanical filtration is to
>keep the water in check (0 nitrates/nitrite and 0 ammonia/green water
>through uv). plants for controlling algae nutrients and fluxes with ph
>due to oxygen exchange/activity. does that sound correct?

Close :-)
The mechanical filtration is to remove solids. Your vortex is the first
stage of this followed by the bead filter. The bead filter has a large
surface area for bacteria to grow and this bacteria will convert the
ammonia to nitrite and then to nitrate.

The idea is that the plants then take up the nitrates in their growth
but higher plants need potash to enable them to do this and potash is
the one thing that isn't usually present in any amounts in pond water
and it gets consumed by the plants so it's the one chemical that you
really do need to add.

All the UV does is cause the green water algae to stick together and it
can then be filtered out. For a UV to actually sterilise pond water and
kill most of the bacteria you need a ridiculous amount of UV, something
like 1 watt per 5(?) gallons of water. Marine aquariums use UV at this
intensity for sterilisation but it's not practical with a pond and a
pond is open to the environment so it would be almost impossible to
keep the water sterile. I'm not a fan of UV's for a pond because the
green water algae can be a useful indicator that things aren't in
balance.

I think you need to put some potash in your pond and stabilise the PH.
If you look back through some threads I think Jan has explained how to
do this using bicarb and that will stabilise thinks quickly. Long term
you may be able to come up with a way to divert some of your water
through broken seashell or crushed coral. This is slower to act than
bicarb but will automatically buffer your PH for you since it will only
dissolve when the ph is low and as it dissolves it raises the KH and
thus raises the ph, it should then stabilise at about 8.2.

I'm surprised that you have a lot of particles floating around though
with a bead filter. They filter down to around 15 microns one they have
got running so you shouldn't have anything visible if the water flow is
correct. You should be pushing at the very minimum 1500 gallons an hour
through the filters and the outlet and inlets should be positioned so
that you have a flow across the pond from the return to the outlet so
that all of the water is cycled through the filter. If you get it
correct then with visible particles I would expect the flow through the
filter to fall in a few hours so you should have to backflush it every
day for a while at least and the fact that you have only had to do this
a couple of times in six weeks and can see particles makes me think
something is not quite right.


Have you any pics of your setup, especially with regard to the
filtration?

--
Regards - Rodney Pont
The from address exists but is mostly dumped,
please send any emails to the address below
e-mail ngpsm4 (at) infohitsystems (dot) ltd (dot) uk

[[email protected]]

I have the Challenger 50 system as pictured here:
http://www.macarthurwatergardens.com/Fluidart/Challenger_Ultimate_Systems.htm

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

>On 26 Aug 2005 03:13:25 -0700, rottyguy70 wrote:

>I am a bit concerned if the filtration system is doing it's job given
>the quality of the water. I went with this system after a bit of
>research and have been disappointed with the results so far.

Sounds to me, for the age, number of gallons & number of fish your pond is
performing just as I would expect it to, imo. Like RTB asked, I too would
like to know what your KH and pH numbers are. ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

[Rodney Pont]

On 27 Aug 2005 11:46:38 -0700, wrote:

>I have the Challenger 50 system as pictured here:
>http://www.macarthurwatergardens.com/Fluidart/Challenger_Ultimate_Systems.htm

I'd found the fluidart filters but didn't know if you had the
challenger or not but I did read the manual :-)

I can't see anything obvious that could be wrong but it should filter
out the particles. I've only got a small home made bead filter but it
even clogs if I put Nishi-Clay in the pond and that is too fine to see
individual particles.

I can't suggest why but it sounds as if the water isn't going through
the beads for some reason but that sounds a bit far-fetched. Does the
flow ever get restricted at all. You said it seemed pretty clean when
you backflushed it but when the flow is restricted and I backflush mine
it always comes out as dark brown sludge at first, unless I've used
some Nishi-Clay and then it's very milky :-)

I've only got half a cubic foot of beads and a six hundred gallon pond
with small goldfish and you should have a lot more sludge. This pond
had been established for fifteen years when the bead filter was added
and I was cleaning it every day for three weeks at first and three
times a day for the first couple of days so I do know how effective
these filters are.

Was there any dirty water at all from either the turbo vortex or the
bead filter?

--
Regards - Rodney Pont
The from address exists but is mostly dumped,
please send any emails to the address below
e-mail ngpsm4 (at) infohitsystems (dot) ltd (dot) uk

[[email protected]]

the backflush produces a bit of green water and then eventually runs
clear. i added some potash (0-0-60) today so will wait to see how
things fair next week. lost another small fish last night. hard to
say if it's the water or a predisposed fish (one of 10 i bought last
week). the others seem fine. don't think i'll mess with the ph as
i've been having to add well water a few times a week. as i've read,
the flux is more detrimental.

[Rodney Pont]

On 28 Aug 2005 10:30:45 -0700, wrote:

>the backflush produces a bit of green water and then eventually runs
>clear. i added some potash (0-0-60) today so will wait to see how
>things fair next week. lost another small fish last night. hard to
>say if it's the water or a predisposed fish (one of 10 i bought last
>week). the others seem fine. don't think i'll mess with the ph as
>i've been having to add well water a few times a week. as i've read,
>the flux is more detrimental.

Ten fish added at once is too much. You should only add a couple a
month because the bacteria in the filter need to increase to cope with
the extra fish load.

You already have the ph swinging between night and morning and all
increasing the KH will do is buffer the ph and stop it swinging. You
need to get your KH up to around 200, as the instructions for your
filter say, to stop the ph swinging. Putting a cupful of bicarb in
every day until the KH is at 200 will be less harmful then leaving the
ph to swing as it does. Put it in at night when the ph is highest and
it will help prevent the overnight drop.

Once the KH is up towards 200 that will buffer your top ups as well. Do
you know the ph and KH of the well water?

I seem to have a mental block about bicarb and can never remember but I
think it's a cup per 1000 gallons (am I close Jan?) so 1 cup a day may
well take a couple of weeks to get it up. First it will stop the
overnight drop and then it will start to gradually increase the ph.


--
Regards - Rodney Pont
The from address exists but is mostly dumped,
please send any emails to the address below
e-mail ngpsm4 (at) infohitsystems (dot) ltd (dot) uk

[[email protected]]

Something isn't right. Lost another fish yesterday and one is acting
strange. While most are healthy eaters, one is kinda wondering off and
not participating (like the others before they died)-- acting very
lethargic. Tested the water this morning and total alkalinity was at
120ppm, ph 8.2. Added 1 cup of Baking Soda this morning through the
skimmer. added 4 TBSP of potash on sunday (our pond is 3500/4000 gals
w/about 1/3 plant coverage).

Of the 3 dead fish, I didn't see any fungus on them (though the one i
found in the skimmer had a cloudy eye but I don't know how long he was
in there- 2 days max).

Anything immediate I can do? This is heart wrenching :-(

[Reel Mckoi]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Of the 3 dead fish, I didn't see any fungus on them (though the one i
> found in the skimmer had a cloudy eye but I don't know how long he was
> in there- 2 days max).
>
> Anything immediate I can do? This is heart wrenching :-(
==========================
I was just wondering if you quarantined these fish for at least 14 days
before putting them into your pond? I seldom see this mentioned here
anymore. Once in the pond they're difficult to catch and expensive to treat
if not caught and put in a smaller container. Also, you don't know what to
treat the pond for. With all the parasitic problems the pet shops have you
can't simply buy fish and put them straight into your pond. Feeders are the
worst!

We don't use a skimmer but I can see how they'd be death traps for fish and
other small critters like newts and baby turtles.
--
McKoi.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond Page http://tinyurl.com/cuq5b
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[[email protected]]

I did not quarantine but the person i bought them from (who also sells
on ebay and has 100% feedback through 100's of transactions) claims he
does. i suppose this batch could have been bad :-(

if it's a disease, could it have been brought on by the plants?
wouldn't the uv lower/eliminate this risk?

[RichToyBox]

I don't know where you are, but, http://www.akca.org/ if US or
http://www.bkks.co.uk/ if UK should have a list of local clubs and contacts.
Many of the clubs in the US have Koi Health Advisors, and others have health
hotlines. These people could diagnose and recommend treatments. It really
sounds like you have a parasite and it needs to be identified and
eliminated. New fish, new pond, transportation, new filter, etc. are all
stressors. Fish under stress are more susceptible to attack, and subsequent
bacterial infections. Good luck.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Something isn't right. Lost another fish yesterday and one is acting
> strange. While most are healthy eaters, one is kinda wondering off and
> not participating (like the others before they died)-- acting very
> lethargic. Tested the water this morning and total alkalinity was at
> 120ppm, ph 8.2. Added 1 cup of Baking Soda this morning through the
> skimmer. added 4 TBSP of potash on sunday (our pond is 3500/4000 gals
> w/about 1/3 plant coverage).
>
> Of the 3 dead fish, I didn't see any fungus on them (though the one i
> found in the skimmer had a cloudy eye but I don't know how long he was
> in there- 2 days max).
>
> Anything immediate I can do? This is heart wrenching :-(
>

[Reel Mckoi]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>I did not quarantine but the person i bought them from (who also sells
> on ebay and has 100% feedback through 100's of transactions) claims he
> does. i suppose this batch could have been bad :-(

$$ Even if he or she does quarantine, you need to quarantine all new fish
for a minimum of 14 days. Also, don't believe everything they tell you in
stores or on Ebay. After a real nightmare with ulcers that wiped out two of
our ponds about 5 years ago, I now quarantine new fish for 21 days and treat
them even though they appear healthy. I don't care what the person I bought
them from tells me. I use QuickCure, Clout and Dimilin in no particular
order. So far so good. I buy few new fish now since mine have started to
breed.

> if it's a disease, could it have been brought on by the plants?

$$ Yes. It could also have come in on a frog or turtle or a ducks feet.
Since we netted our ponds we haven't had any more health problems with our
koi and goldfish.

> wouldn't the uv lower/eliminate this risk?

$$ No. I don't believe this light eliminates risk but will kill whatever
tiny parasites get pumped trough it. It will never get all of them. It's
better to KNOW who you're supplier is and then quarantine and treat for a
minimum of 14 days.
--
McKoi.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond Page http://tinyurl.com/cuq5b
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[[email protected]]

I did contact the supplier. He says they've had ulcer issues in some
of the smaller fish due to stress (to note: I've not lost any larger
then 4-5" yet) but fairly certain no KHV-- what can I say... He
recommends I add salt to .05. Seem like a good idea? We have a lot of
solar salt lying around that we use in our water softener system. It
seems some use it here w/o objection. Any idea at what dosage I should
be using for a 3500-4000 gal system?

btw- our pond is concrete with a multicoat system applied. we have a
waterfall that runs down some boulders as well. i'm hoping salt will
not adversely affect this?

Thanks very much everyone. You all have been a tremendous help.

[RichToyBox]

In most of the literature, salting to 0.1 is good for the fish. Reduces
stress, increases thickness of slime coat, which is beneficial in both
healing and making the fish less susceptible to parasites, due to thickness.
Salt should not affect the pond if it has a sealer system on it. Unsealed,
it is possible that the salt could cause corrosion of the reinforcing steel
in the concrete, but it would require years of salting to penetrate 2 inches
of concrete. Some of the current thinking is salt belongs on french fries
and should not be used in the ponds. Low levels cause resistance of
parasites to the use of salt as a means of erradication, but many of the
parasites are already able to tolerate high levels of salt, so I don't see
an issue with low dose. Higher levels will interfer with the use of some of
the formaldahyde type products for killing parasites, but at 0.05%, it
should not be an issue. As soon as everything has settled out and the fish
have settled down, healed, and no further losses, then the salt level can be
reduced by normal weekly water changes, which are needed anyway.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html

> wrote in message
ups.com...
>I did contact the supplier. He says they've had ulcer issues in some
> of the smaller fish due to stress (to note: I've not lost any larger
> then 4-5" yet) but fairly certain no KHV-- what can I say... He
> recommends I add salt to .05. Seem like a good idea? We have a lot of
> solar salt lying around that we use in our water softener system. It
> seems some use it here w/o objection. Any idea at what dosage I should
> be using for a 3500-4000 gal system?
>
> btw- our pond is concrete with a multicoat system applied. we have a
> waterfall that runs down some boulders as well. i'm hoping salt will
> not adversely affect this?
>
> Thanks very much everyone. You all have been a tremendous help.
>

[[email protected]]

frogs? good grief. they arrived before the fish. there are probably
10 or more that inhabit the pond :-/

[Reel Mckoi]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
>I did contact the supplier. He says they've had ulcer issues in some
> of the smaller fish due to stress (to note: I've not lost any larger
> then 4-5" yet) but fairly certain no KHV-- what can I say...

## Ulcers are caused by a bacteria, not stress as such. Any injury and the
aeromonas (sp?) move in, create an ulcer and kill the fish. This was a
pathologic problem we and many others were dealing with back then. The
Koi-Zyme prevents it by out-competing the pathogenic bacteria. Stress is
never good for fish but it doesn't cause ulcers. Somepeople say they're not
contagious but I believe they are. It started with a few fish and spread
rapidly. There was no undue stress on these fish and I was hearing about
pondkeepers around me dealing with the same problem. As mine koi and
goldfish died off one by one despite antibiotic shots and creams - the fish
behind the house that never came in contact with them remained unaffected.
When the man replaced all the koi he told me about Lymno-Zyme (same as
Koi-Zyme). I've used it ever since and now even when they're tearing
themselves up spawning there are no infections and no ulcers. It's worth
the $16.00 a year as far as I'm concerned.

He
> recommends I add salt to .05. Seem like a good idea? We have a lot of
> solar salt lying around that we use in our water softener system. It
> seems some use it here w/o objection. Any idea at what dosage I should
> be using for a 3500-4000 gal system?

## Salt in the pond is useless as far as I can see and the plants hate it.
To use enough to do any good (for certain parasites) you lose your plant
filtration. Salt does nothing for ulcers.

> btw- our pond is concrete with a multicoat system applied. we have a
> waterfall that runs down some boulders as well. i'm hoping salt will
> not adversely affect this?

## Salt is useless unless you have high nitrite levels meaning there's a
nitrogen cycle problem - or it's not established yet.

> Thanks very much everyone. You all have been a tremendous help.

## :-)
--
McKoi.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond Page http://tinyurl.com/cuq5b
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Reel Mckoi]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> frogs? good grief. they arrived before the fish. there are probably
> 10 or more that inhabit the pond :-/
====================================
It's never been proven to my satisfaction that they can carry disease from
pond to pond but you never know. These diseases have to have some way to
spread themselves as do all diseases and parasites.
--
McKoi.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond Page http://tinyurl.com/cuq5b
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Rodney Pont]

On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 15:26:47 -0500, Reel Mckoi wrote:

>> wouldn't the uv lower/eliminate this risk?
>
>$$ No. I don't believe this light eliminates risk but will kill whatever
>tiny parasites get pumped trough it. It will never get all of them. It's
>better to KNOW who you're supplier is and then quarantine and treat for a
>minimum of 14 days.

UV's for ponds aren't strong enough to act as sterilisers. You need
5W/gallon to sterilise and you need to pass all the pond water through
at least twice an hour otherwise you are giving pathogens a chance to
multiply. Also with pond UV's the water is too far from the UV at the
outside of the tube to kill things. They don't even kill the green
algae but disrupt the cell surface so that they stick together and
either sink to the bottom of the pond and die or get filtered out.

There are some aquarium sterilisers at
http://www.aquatics-online.co.uk/Z371193.asp and you can see the sort
of intensity and flow rates required on that page.

It's hard to suggest what to do since we don't know what the problem
is. Salt is one thing you can try but it will affect your plants in
higher concentrations but may help your fish cope with stress at lower
strengths.

Potassium permanganate is also another possibility that won't affect
your plants but will kill your filter bacteria. You can bypass your
bead filter but the bacteria in there may die from lack of oxygen
anyway. If you register at http://www.click2roark.com you can get
details of how to use both of these treatments.

Can you get Medi-Koi where you are? This is a Koi food treated with
antibiotics and is one of the best ways of getting them into your fish.
The UK government doesn't trust us to complete the 10 day course so we
can't get this here but a quick google shows a few suppliers in the US:
http://www.tsekoi.com/medications/medi.html
http://store.watergardenweb.com/med125pounba.html

Cloudy eyes are caused by bacteria but it could have occurred after
death although I would have expected it to affect both eyes then.

--
Regards - Rodney Pont
The from address exists but is mostly dumped,
please send any emails to the address below
e-mail ngpsm4 (at) infohitsystems (dot) ltd (dot) uk

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

>I seem to have a mental block about bicarb and can never remember but I
>think it's a cup per 1000 gallons (am I close Jan?) so 1 cup a day may
>well take a couple of weeks to get it up. First it will stop the
>overnight drop and then it will start to gradually increase the ph.

Not ignoring you, it is back to work time (school started Monday for me,
Tuesday for the kids).

I usually tell people to start with that and remeasure their KH after 24
hours. ~ jan


~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

[Rodney Pont]

On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 19:39:05 -0700, ~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:

>>I seem to have a mental block about bicarb and can never remember but I
>>think it's a cup per 1000 gallons (am I close Jan?) so 1 cup a day may
>>well take a couple of weeks to get it up. First it will stop the
>>overnight drop and then it will start to gradually increase the ph.
>
>Not ignoring you, it is back to work time (school started Monday for me,
>Tuesday for the kids).

That's OK, you usually turn up :-)

>I usually tell people to start with that and remeasure their KH after 24
>hours. ~ jan

Great, I'll try and remember, that's what he's started with.

--
Regards - Rodney Pont
The from address exists but is mostly dumped,
please send any emails to the address below
e-mail ngpsm4 (at) infohitsystems (dot) ltd (dot) uk