yellow lab may be sick

[matt]

Hi all. I got 4 young african cichlids a month ago. up until today, my 2
yellow labs and 2 demasonis have been very healthy and happy, but i just
noticed one of the labs is just sitting on the bottom. He's alive and
breathing, but not moving much. Earlier this evening he would move if
another fish, or a person were near him, and then stop and sit for a while.
Now nothing is getting his attention. Sounds pretty bad. Is there anything
i can do? He appears to look the same, and there are no signs of ick.
Should i seperate him? The rest of the fish look fine. I was looking to do
a 20% water change soon, but would it be best to hold off to not add more
stress to him?

Thanks for any suggesitons.

[Elaine T]

matt wrote:
> Hi all. I got 4 young african cichlids a month ago. up until today, my 2
> yellow labs and 2 demasonis have been very healthy and happy, but i just
> noticed one of the labs is just sitting on the bottom. He's alive and
> breathing, but not moving much. Earlier this evening he would move if
> another fish, or a person were near him, and then stop and sit for a while.
> Now nothing is getting his attention. Sounds pretty bad. Is there anything
> i can do? He appears to look the same, and there are no signs of ick.
> Should i seperate him? The rest of the fish look fine. I was looking to do
> a 20% water change soon, but would it be best to hold off to not add more
> stress to him?
>
> Thanks for any suggesitons.
>
>
Have you tested the water for nitrite? I think a 20% water change on
the tank is a good idea. 20% without disturbing the substrate or decor
usually doesn't stress fish much unless your tap water is dramatically
different from the tank water.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Gill Passman]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
...
> matt wrote:
> > Hi all. I got 4 young african cichlids a month ago. up until today, my
2
> > yellow labs and 2 demasonis have been very healthy and happy, but i just
> > noticed one of the labs is just sitting on the bottom. He's alive and
> > breathing, but not moving much. Earlier this evening he would move if
> > another fish, or a person were near him, and then stop and sit for a
while.
> > Now nothing is getting his attention. Sounds pretty bad. Is there
anything
> > i can do? He appears to look the same, and there are no signs of ick.
> > Should i seperate him? The rest of the fish look fine. I was looking
to do
> > a 20% water change soon, but would it be best to hold off to not add
more
> > stress to him?
> >
> > Thanks for any suggesitons.
> >
> >
> Have you tested the water for nitrite? I think a 20% water change on
> the tank is a good idea. 20% without disturbing the substrate or decor
> usually doesn't stress fish much unless your tap water is dramatically
> different from the tank water.
>
> --
> Elaine T __
> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com


Sounds to me like this is a case of Mbuna "in-fighting" and the Yellow Lab
is coming off worst. Check the profiles on Malawimayhem.com - the demasoni
is described as "very aggresive for its size":-

http://www.malawimayhem.com/profile_show.php?id=277

There are no comments regarding aggresiveness for the Yellow Lab:-

http://www.malawimayhem.com/profile_show.php?id=247

There are a number of things that you could try:-

1. Make sure that there is plenty of rockwork and caves. Mbunas are
territorial and will jealously guard their cave from other fish. If there
are insufficient caves then there will be more fighting - plus the
subordinate fish will have nowhere to go and hide when things get too
heated.

2. Depending on the size of your tank you could add more fish. This will
initially cause more fighting but could spread the load and ease the problem
for the Yellow Lab. But be careful doing this as the stress might finish off
the Lab. This is something I've not attempted doing myself (the tank has
been untouched since March). I've read a number of postings/articles where
people suggest doing this at night with no lights after rearranging the
rockwork. This means that the fish are disorientated and have to
re-establish their territory.

3. You could remove the Lab and return him to your LFS. I did this when I
had a problem with the other fish picking off my Rusty Cichlids in much the
way that you describe. I managed to rescue the third one and after an uneasy
few days recovering with my beta in a 5 gall I took her back to the LFS. The
disadvantage of doing this is that you leave the remaining Lab at the mercy
of the demasonis and on it's own. You also probably would then want to add
more fish so you are back to option 2.

4. You could remove the Lab temporarily for him to recover. But then you
still have the problem of putting him back. So you are back to option 2 for
the introduction of fish into a Malawi Community.

5. You could take the demasonis back to LFS and get slightly less agressive
Mbunas (BTW they are all aggresive it is a matter of degree).

Hope this helps and that your Lab recovers.

Gill

[Derek W. Benson]

On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 10:26:05 +0100, "Gill Passman"
<gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote:

>> matt wrote:
>> Hi all. I got 4 young african cichlids a month ago. up until today, my
>>2
>>yellow labs and 2 demasonis have been very healthy and happy, but i just
>>noticed one of the labs is just sitting on the bottom. He's alive and
>>breathing, but not moving much. Earlier this evening he would move if
>>another fish, or a person were near him, and then stop and sit for a
>>while.
>>Now nothing is getting his attention. Sounds pretty bad. Is there
>>anything
>> i can do? He appears to look the same, and there are no signs of ick.
>>Should i seperate him? The rest of the fish look fine. I was looking
>>to do
>>a 20% water change soon, but would it be best to hold off to not add
>>more
>> stress to him?
>>
>>Thanks for any suggesitons.

>Sounds to me like this is a case of Mbuna "in-fighting" and the Yellow Lab
>is coming off worst. Check the profiles on Malawimayhem.com - the demasoni
>is described as "very aggresive for its size":-
>
>Gill
>
I don't own Mbunas, but I would think that this in-fighting would be
observed by Matt if it were occurring to any distressing degree. He
sees one fish chasing around the other fish all the time, and after a
while the victim is so cowed that it starts losing it and just sits
there. But Matt doesn't describe this activity at all.

It sounds to me like a water problem, as Elaine is suggesting;
although I would go with a Nitrate level that is too high, as opposed
to Nitrite.

Matt: How often do you change water, vacuum the gravel?

-Derek

[matt]

"Derek W. Benson" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 10:26:05 +0100, "Gill Passman"
> <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>> matt wrote:
>>> Hi all. I got 4 young african cichlids a month ago. up until today, my
>>>2
>>>yellow labs and 2 demasonis have been very healthy and happy, but i just
>>>noticed one of the labs is just sitting on the bottom. He's alive and
>>>breathing, but not moving much. Earlier this evening he would move if
>>>another fish, or a person were near him, and then stop and sit for a
>>>while.
>>>Now nothing is getting his attention. Sounds pretty bad. Is there
>>>anything
>>> i can do? He appears to look the same, and there are no signs of ick.
>>>Should i seperate him? The rest of the fish look fine. I was looking
>>>to do
>>>a 20% water change soon, but would it be best to hold off to not add
>>>more
>>> stress to him?
>>>
>>>Thanks for any suggesitons.
>
>>Sounds to me like this is a case of Mbuna "in-fighting" and the Yellow Lab
>>is coming off worst. Check the profiles on Malawimayhem.com - the demasoni
>>is described as "very aggresive for its size":-
>>
>>Gill
>>
> I don't own Mbunas, but I would think that this in-fighting would be
> observed by Matt if it were occurring to any distressing degree. He
> sees one fish chasing around the other fish all the time, and after a
> while the victim is so cowed that it starts losing it and just sits
> there. But Matt doesn't describe this activity at all.
>
> It sounds to me like a water problem, as Elaine is suggesting;
> although I would go with a Nitrate level that is too high, as opposed
> to Nitrite.
>
> Matt: How often do you change water, vacuum the gravel?

Thank you for all of your replies. Unfortunately the Yellow Lab didnt' live
through the night. I know the demasoni's are more aggressive, however the
people at my fish store said if they grow up together they should be fine.
They are very young. I do see the two demasoni's chasing each other but the
chasing seems pretty equal. They didn't seem to mess with either yellow
lab. I just put the fish in less than a month ago and was about to do a
water change when i noticed his condition. Thanks for all the advise and
i'll keep this in mind for the future. i plan on getting a few more fish
soon and maybe another rock for them to hide, even though there is plenty of
decorations for them to hide under and behind.

more later,
-matt

[Elaine T]

matt wrote:
> Thank you for all of your replies. Unfortunately the Yellow Lab didnt' live
> through the night. I know the demasoni's are more aggressive, however the
> people at my fish store said if they grow up together they should be fine.
> They are very young. I do see the two demasoni's chasing each other but the
> chasing seems pretty equal. They didn't seem to mess with either yellow
> lab. I just put the fish in less than a month ago and was about to do a
> water change when i noticed his condition. Thanks for all the advise and
> i'll keep this in mind for the future. i plan on getting a few more fish
> soon and maybe another rock for them to hide, even though there is plenty of
> decorations for them to hide under and behind.
>
> more later,
> -matt
>
>
Matt, is this a month-old aquarium, or did you add fish to an
established aquarium a month ago? If this is a new tank, your other
fish are at risk of health problems while the tank cycles. Either way,
you should test for pH, ammonia, and nitrite at a minimum when a fish
dies - even if you suspect aggression.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Gill Passman]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
...
> matt wrote:
> > Thank you for all of your replies. Unfortunately the Yellow Lab didnt'
live
> > through the night. I know the demasoni's are more aggressive, however
the
> > people at my fish store said if they grow up together they should be
fine.
> > They are very young. I do see the two demasoni's chasing each other but
the
> > chasing seems pretty equal. They didn't seem to mess with either yellow
> > lab. I just put the fish in less than a month ago and was about to do a
> > water change when i noticed his condition. Thanks for all the advise
and
> > i'll keep this in mind for the future. i plan on getting a few more
fish
> > soon and maybe another rock for them to hide, even though there is
plenty of
> > decorations for them to hide under and behind.
> >
> > more later,
> > -matt
> >
> >
> Matt, is this a month-old aquarium, or did you add fish to an
> established aquarium a month ago? If this is a new tank, your other
> fish are at risk of health problems while the tank cycles. Either way,
> you should test for pH, ammonia, and nitrite at a minimum when a fish
> dies - even if you suspect aggression.
>
> --
> Elaine T __
> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

I agree
Gill

[matt]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
...
> matt wrote:
>> Thank you for all of your replies. Unfortunately the Yellow Lab didnt'
>> live through the night. I know the demasoni's are more aggressive,
>> however the people at my fish store said if they grow up together they
>> should be fine. They are very young. I do see the two demasoni's chasing
>> each other but the chasing seems pretty equal. They didn't seem to mess
>> with either yellow lab. I just put the fish in less than a month ago and
>> was about to do a water change when i noticed his condition. Thanks for
>> all the advise and i'll keep this in mind for the future. i plan on
>> getting a few more fish soon and maybe another rock for them to hide,
>> even though there is plenty of decorations for them to hide under and
>> behind.
>>
>> more later,
>> -matt
> Matt, is this a month-old aquarium, or did you add fish to an established
> aquarium a month ago? If this is a new tank, your other fish are at risk
> of health problems while the tank cycles. Either way, you should test for
> pH, ammonia, and nitrite at a minimum when a fish dies - even if you
> suspect aggression.
>
Thanks, that's the first thing i did. Everything is OK. pH is at 8.2,
nitrites were at nothing and nitrates were in the low/safe area. I
purchased some more fish to even out the tank. I found a problem fish that
i didnt' notice before. He chances every fish around, but does not seem to
pick on one fish in particular. The pet store agreed to let me swap this
demasoni for another one. I will probably take them up on their offer. I'm
sure this is what happened to my first yellow lab. Somehow i missed him
doing it earlier.

thanks,
-matt