mystery fish deaths

[Peter Demski]

Here are my tank parameters:

90 gal heavily planted
Aquaclear 110 filter
256 watts fluorescent lighting
two 2L DIY CO2 injection setup
Eco-Complete substrate(3")


Fish:

15 male guppies
2 angles
8 ottos
4 swordtails
~30 amano shrimp

Water Parameters:

Ammonia:.25-.5ppm
NitrIte:0ppm
NitrAte: 10ppm
Ph:7.0(hasn't changed with small amount of CO2)
Kh:300+


Within the last two weeks I have lost 2 swordtails, 4 ottos, and today my
prized guppy. I am not sure what
is killing my fish. All fish showed great color and only the one swordtail
showed strange behavior
before he died. One day he looked like he was a little stiff. The next day
he was sitting on the bottom
but showed no other outward signs of problems. I have noticed a few times
my fish will rub up against
some of my plant leaves however they seemed to do this before things started
dying.

It seems like they are fine and then they just drop dead.....

Any help is GREATLY appreciated!

Peter

[Elaine T]

Peter Demski wrote:
> Here are my tank parameters:
>
> 90 gal heavily planted
> Aquaclear 110 filter
> 256 watts fluorescent lighting
> two 2L DIY CO2 injection setup
> Eco-Complete substrate(3")
>
>
> Fish:
>
> 15 male guppies
> 2 angles
> 8 ottos
> 4 swordtails
> ~30 amano shrimp
>
> Water Parameters:
>
> Ammonia:.25-.5ppm
> NitrIte:0ppm
> NitrAte: 10ppm
> Ph:7.0(hasn't changed with small amount of CO2)
> Kh:300+
>
>
> Within the last two weeks I have lost 2 swordtails, 4 ottos, and today my
> prized guppy. I am not sure what
> is killing my fish. All fish showed great color and only the one swordtail
> showed strange behavior
> before he died. One day he looked like he was a little stiff. The next day
> he was sitting on the bottom
> but showed no other outward signs of problems. I have noticed a few times
> my fish will rub up against
> some of my plant leaves however they seemed to do this before things started
> dying.
>
> It seems like they are fine and then they just drop dead.....
>
> Any help is GREATLY appreciated!
>
> Peter
>
>
Probably ammonia poisoning. That's a LOT of ammonia for an established
tank. Otos are particularly sensitive to ammonia too. The flashing
(rubbing on plants) is a sign of skin irritation, rather like a human
scratching. Ammonia can cause enough irritation that fish start
flashing. Parasites like ich or velvet can also cause flashing, but you
would probably be seeing spots by now if that were the problem.

I'd detoxify the ammonia with AmQuel at the least. If you have another
healthy tank, seed in bacteria by rinsing some filter media in the tank,
or by putting some media into the Aquaclear. Watch for nitrites next,
since your tank seems to be cycling.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Indy]

How long has your tank been set up? Doesn't sound like it is fully
cycled yet.

I agree it is Ammonia poisioning. I would do a 50% water change and be
sure to test the water you are putting in the tank. If the new water is
okay declorinate it and keep doing water changes every other day, at 20%
- 30%, until you get the Ammonia and Nitrite out of the danger zones.

If the tank cycled you may loose some more fish.



--
Posted via CichlidFish.com
http://www.cichlidfish.com/portal/forums

[Peter Demski]

Did a more thorough test today. Here is what I came up with:

Ammonia:0
NitrIte:0
NitrAte:<5ppm
Phosphate:2.5ppm
CA:40ppm
GH:60ppm
KH:140ppm
Iron:.1ppm(chelated)
Ph:7.4

After testing today the ammonia is gone. I think I may have an idea of what
happened.
I had removed a large amount of hornwort, anacharis, and hygro. I normally
have to
dose NitrAte since my fishload is pretty small for a 90 gal. The other
thing is my Ph and
Kh reading from my kit are different from the reading the LFS got with the
5in1 dunk strips
they used.

I originally thought that it may be ich since I did see a spot or two on the
one swordtail so I
removed him immediately to a quarantine tank. I didn't think you could see
velvet as spots?

One of my other ottos has a large red mark by his right gill so I also
removed him from the
tank to the quarantine tank. Do ottos tolerate freshwater salt well? I
would like to add
some to help him breathe a little easier.

Thanks in advance!

Peter


"Elaine T" > wrote in message
.. .
> Peter Demski wrote:
>> Here are my tank parameters:
>>
>> 90 gal heavily planted
>> Aquaclear 110 filter
>> 256 watts fluorescent lighting
>> two 2L DIY CO2 injection setup
>> Eco-Complete substrate(3")
>>
>>
>> Fish:
>>
>> 15 male guppies
>> 2 angles
>> 8 ottos
>> 4 swordtails
>> ~30 amano shrimp
>>
>> Water Parameters:
>>
>> Ammonia:.25-.5ppm
>> NitrIte:0ppm
>> NitrAte: 10ppm
>> Ph:7.0(hasn't changed with small amount of CO2)
>> Kh:300+
>>
>>
>> Within the last two weeks I have lost 2 swordtails, 4 ottos, and today my
>> prized guppy. I am not sure what
>> is killing my fish. All fish showed great color and only the one
>> swordtail showed strange behavior
>> before he died. One day he looked like he was a little stiff. The next
>> day he was sitting on the bottom
>> but showed no other outward signs of problems. I have noticed a few
>> times my fish will rub up against
>> some of my plant leaves however they seemed to do this before things
>> started dying.
>>
>> It seems like they are fine and then they just drop dead.....
>>
>> Any help is GREATLY appreciated!
>>
>> Peter
> Probably ammonia poisoning. That's a LOT of ammonia for an established
> tank. Otos are particularly sensitive to ammonia too. The flashing
> (rubbing on plants) is a sign of skin irritation, rather like a human
> scratching. Ammonia can cause enough irritation that fish start flashing.
> Parasites like ich or velvet can also cause flashing, but you would
> probably be seeing spots by now if that were the problem.
>
> I'd detoxify the ammonia with AmQuel at the least. If you have another
> healthy tank, seed in bacteria by rinsing some filter media in the tank,
> or by putting some media into the Aquaclear. Watch for nitrites next,
> since your tank seems to be cycling.
>
> --
> Elaine T __
> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com
>

[Peter Demski]

Tank has been setup for about 4 months now. It's heavily planted though so
it
never really cycled like a regular tank does. I just posted a reply to
Elaine with
my water parameters. No more Ammonia and most of my NitrAtes are gone
so it's about time to add some more again. I did my weekly 45 gal water
change
(50%) right after posting the question since I thought it could only help.
One more
otto did get sick and he has been removed so the shrimp don't finish him
off.

Thanks!

Peter

"Indy" -DONTEMAIL> wrote in message
...
> How long has your tank been set up? Doesn't sound like it is fully
> cycled yet.
>
> I agree it is Ammonia poisioning. I would do a 50% water change and be
> sure to test the water you are putting in the tank. If the new water is
> okay declorinate it and keep doing water changes every other day, at 20%
> - 30%, until you get the Ammonia and Nitrite out of the danger zones.
>
> If the tank cycled you may loose some more fish.
>
>
>
> --
> Posted via CichlidFish.com
> http://www.cichlidfish.com/portal/forums

[Elaine T]

Peter Demski wrote:
> Did a more thorough test today. Here is what I came up with:
>
> Ammonia:0
> NitrIte:0
> NitrAte:<5ppm
> Phosphate:2.5ppm
> CA:40ppm
> GH:60ppm
> KH:140ppm
> Iron:.1ppm(chelated)
> Ph:7.4
>
> After testing today the ammonia is gone. I think I may have an idea of what
> happened.
> I had removed a large amount of hornwort, anacharis, and hygro. I normally
> have to
> dose NitrAte since my fishload is pretty small for a 90 gal. The other
> thing is my Ph and
> Kh reading from my kit are different from the reading the LFS got with the
> 5in1 dunk strips
> they used.
>
> I originally thought that it may be ich since I did see a spot or two on the
> one swordtail so I
> removed him immediately to a quarantine tank. I didn't think you could see
> velvet as spots?
>
> One of my other ottos has a large red mark by his right gill so I also
> removed him from the
> tank to the quarantine tank. Do ottos tolerate freshwater salt well? I
> would like to add
> some to help him breathe a little easier.


Ah, much better. Glad you figured the ammonia spike out. Phosphates
are still rather high. I'd drop them from the ferts for a while or do a
couple of water changes to get them back down to about 1 ppm.

As for seeing velvet or ich, single velvet spots are barely visible. To
me, they look almost like a bit of natural irridescence on the edge of a
scale until there are a lot of them. Ich spots are larger and very easy
to see.

I've kept otos in tanks with some salt (about 1 tsp/5 gallons), but as
you know they have a strong preference for soft, pure water. Maybe
someone else is good with otos, because I've never had much luck
treating them for diseases. They hit my hospital tank alone, with too
little algae and not as much cover as they had in the community tank,
and seem to keel over with almost no provocation.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Peter Demski]

I do have a couple spare 29 gal tanks that I was using for my amano shrimp
breeding project that I could use as hospital tanks. I could take the fish
out
of my 90 gal and treat them in the smaller tanks but how long will it take
for
velvet to die without a host fish so I know how long to keep them out of my
90 gal.

This is a stupid question but I don't have to worry about my inverts getting
velvet
right? Also I do have a pleco in the tank. I know some medicines for ich
can
be hard on them in particular. Is there something anyone can suggest?

Thanks!

Peter


> Ah, much better. Glad you figured the ammonia spike out. Phosphates are
> still rather high. I'd drop them from the ferts for a while or do a couple
> of water changes to get them back down to about 1 ppm.
>
> As for seeing velvet or ich, single velvet spots are barely visible. To
> me, they look almost like a bit of natural irridescence on the edge of a
> scale until there are a lot of them. Ich spots are larger and very easy
> to see.
>
> I've kept otos in tanks with some salt (about 1 tsp/5 gallons), but as you
> know they have a strong preference for soft, pure water. Maybe someone
> else is good with otos, because I've never had much luck treating them for
> diseases. They hit my hospital tank alone, with too little algae and not
> as much cover as they had in the community tank, and seem to keel over
> with almost no provocation.
>
> --
> Elaine T __
> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Elaine T]

Peter Demski wrote:
> I do have a couple spare 29 gal tanks that I was using for my amano shrimp
> breeding project that I could use as hospital tanks. I could take the fish
> out
> of my 90 gal and treat them in the smaller tanks but how long will it take
> for
> velvet to die without a host fish so I know how long to keep them out of my
> 90 gal.
>
> This is a stupid question but I don't have to worry about my inverts getting
> velvet
> right? Also I do have a pleco in the tank. I know some medicines for ich
> can
> be hard on them in particular. Is there something anyone can suggest?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Peter

Inverts don't get velvet as far as I know. However, they tend to be
pretty sensitive to velvet treatments. Avoid anything with copper!
Velvet parasites only live about 24 hours without a fish host, and then
die. They don't have an encysted stage like ich. If it's ich, a week
without fish is adequate with tank temps in the 70s.

Are there more fish than just the one with spots? Since your tank had
an ammonia spike and the water quality is back to normal, I doubt more
fish will be infected. If I were you, I would start by isolating and
treating only the one infected fish with a standard formalin/malachite
ich and velvet cure. For all you know, the rest of your fish could be
immune.

Just in case, I would also treat the display tank with a single dose of
formalin (Kordon's Formalin 3 is one brand name). Formalin is mild,
hasn't hurt my shrimp, snails, or biofiltration at Kordon's dose, and
should kill any free-swimming ich tomites or velvet parasites. I've
used formalin on otos as well and not had problems. They're loricarids
and sensitive like plecos.

Watch very carefully and if any other fish show signs of infection then
you may want to remove them all, or simply continue the formalin treatment.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Peter Demski]

I decided not to treat the tank for velvet since none of the other fish seem
very sick or have been flashing excessively. I have however had a very
strange problem start since my problem originally started.

I have had 4 fish and one snail jump out of my tank in a week. I have had
the tank running for quite awhile and never had a problem but now I have
had so many fish jump out of the tank I have put the covers back on. Even
my snail I had in the tank was dead on the ground behind the tank one day.
Any idea what might be causing something like this?

Thanks!

Peter

> Inverts don't get velvet as far as I know. However, they tend to be
> pretty sensitive to velvet treatments. Avoid anything with copper! Velvet
> parasites only live about 24 hours without a fish host, and then die.
> They don't have an encysted stage like ich. If it's ich, a week without
> fish is adequate with tank temps in the 70s.
>
> Are there more fish than just the one with spots? Since your tank had an
> ammonia spike and the water quality is back to normal, I doubt more fish
> will be infected. If I were you, I would start by isolating and treating
> only the one infected fish with a standard formalin/malachite ich and
> velvet cure. For all you know, the rest of your fish could be immune.
>
> Just in case, I would also treat the display tank with a single dose of
> formalin (Kordon's Formalin 3 is one brand name). Formalin is mild,
> hasn't hurt my shrimp, snails, or biofiltration at Kordon's dose, and
> should kill any free-swimming ich tomites or velvet parasites. I've used
> formalin on otos as well and not had problems. They're loricarids and
> sensitive like plecos.
>
> Watch very carefully and if any other fish show signs of infection then
> you may want to remove them all, or simply continue the formalin
> treatment.
>
> --
> Elaine T __
> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Elaine T]

Peter Demski wrote:
> I decided not to treat the tank for velvet since none of the other fish seem
> very sick or have been flashing excessively. I have however had a very
> strange problem start since my problem originally started.
>
> I have had 4 fish and one snail jump out of my tank in a week. I have had
> the tank running for quite awhile and never had a problem but now I have
> had so many fish jump out of the tank I have put the covers back on. Even
> my snail I had in the tank was dead on the ground behind the tank one day.
> Any idea what might be causing something like this?

I've had problems with jumpers too. First, test the water. (You
probably have already.) Fish tend to jump more when the water irritates
their skin or gills. Ammonia, nitrite, or big pH changes can all cause
fish to jump.

In my tanks, whenever I have to do a bunch of water changes, sensitive
fish like Otos swim madly back and forth, Amano shrimp and snails crawl
out of the tank, and fish prone to jumping jump. I was able to solve
the problem by using good chemical filtration. My favorite is Boyd's
Chemi-Pure. It's a mixture of activated carbon and mixed bed ion
exchange resin that will trap pretty much anything in your municipal
water. I've looked at my water report, and my best guess for the cause
of the jumpers in my tanks is either detergent residue or selenium.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com