You don't mess with tropical fish.. . . .

[Uncle Davey]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/4192566.stm

Boy struck by giant tropical fish

Sunfish pictured off Pembrokeshire by photographer Janet Baxter

A four-year-old boy fishing off the west Wales coast with his parents was
knocked over by a metre-long tropical fish which leaped aboard their boat.

The Grey family were fishing off the coast of Pembrokeshire when the ocean
sunfish - weighing around 30kg - landed on top of their son Byron.

"It knocked him flying," said Vivienne Grey, from Little Haven.

Sunfish - the world's largest bony fish - are native to warm, tropical
waters and are less common in the UK.

Mrs Grey and her husband Andrew had taken Byron and his brother Owen, 12,
fishing for lobster in their 14ft boat. They were about 150m off the coast
of Little Haven when the incident happened.

"My husband said he was glad we went with him, because he's sure we wouldn't
have believed him if he'd come home and told us about it," she said.

OCEAN SUNFISH FACTFILE
Its scientific name is Mola Mola - also known as the moon fish
It is flat and disc-shaped in appearance, with a distinctive fin
It can grow up to 3m long and weigh 1,360kg
It is found in most of the world's tropical and temperate waters - often
along the coastal areas where gulls can rid them of parasites
Like many other unusual sea creatures, it is becoming more common in Welsh
waters
It has a has a small brain - a 200kg specimen may have a brain the size of a
nut


"We spotted the fin of the sunfish in the water and, because we knew they
were rare, we thought we'd take the boat a bit closer to let the children
have a look.

"But as we got closer, it just disappeared. The next thing we knew, it had
leaped out of the water and landed in the boat, right on top of Byron.

"We grabbed him from under the fish, and both boys were just shouting to
their dad to get the fish out of the boat.

"It was very heavy, but Andrew managed to lift it and heave it over the
side.

"Luckily, Byron got away with cuts and grazes.

"I didn't realise there were fish that big in our waters."

The experience has not put the family off sailing, and the boys were back
out in the boat within days.

Marine-watchers said several sunfish - which normally live in warm, tropical
waters - had been seen off the Pembrokeshire coast in recent months.

'Not dangerous'

Cliff Benson, who runs Sea Trust, the marine branch of the Wildlife Trust of
South and West Wales, said sunfish could grow up to 3m long and weigh up to
1,360kg (3,000lb).

"We get them through the summer months, but normally all people see is the
distinctive grey fin," he explained.

"They float about eating jellyfish, and our waters are particularly rich in
jellyfish at the moment.

"They're not considered dangerous. In fact, only one man has ever been
killed by a sunfish - and that was because it landed on him and squashed
him."

Wildlife photographer Janet Baxter, from Borth, who took the picture of the
fish above, said sea creatures leapt out of the water for all kinds of
reasons.

"I saw two young sunfish jumping around last year," she said.

"The usual reasons things jump out of the water are because of food, sex, or
parasites - but sometimes they just do it for the fun of it, because it's a
nice feeling."

[Bible John]

Interesting. I remember my ocean exploration days in San Diego. Never
been struck by a tropical fish though.


In article >, "Uncle Davey" >
wrote:

> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/4192566.stm
>
> Boy struck by giant tropical fish
>
> Sunfish pictured off Pembrokeshire by photographer Janet Baxter
>
> A four-year-old boy fishing off the west Wales coast with his parents was
> knocked over by a metre-long tropical fish which leaped aboard their boat.
>
> The Grey family were fishing off the coast of Pembrokeshire when the ocean
> sunfish - weighing around 30kg - landed on top of their son Byron.
>
> "It knocked him flying," said Vivienne Grey, from Little Haven.
>
> Sunfish - the world's largest bony fish - are native to warm, tropical
> waters and are less common in the UK.
>
> Mrs Grey and her husband Andrew had taken Byron and his brother Owen, 12,
> fishing for lobster in their 14ft boat. They were about 150m off the coast
> of Little Haven when the incident happened.
>
> "My husband said he was glad we went with him, because he's sure we wouldn't
> have believed him if he'd come home and told us about it," she said.
>
> OCEAN SUNFISH FACTFILE
> Its scientific name is Mola Mola - also known as the moon fish
> It is flat and disc-shaped in appearance, with a distinctive fin
> It can grow up to 3m long and weigh 1,360kg
> It is found in most of the world's tropical and temperate waters - often
> along the coastal areas where gulls can rid them of parasites
> Like many other unusual sea creatures, it is becoming more common in Welsh
> waters
> It has a has a small brain - a 200kg specimen may have a brain the size of a
> nut
>
>
> "We spotted the fin of the sunfish in the water and, because we knew they
> were rare, we thought we'd take the boat a bit closer to let the children
> have a look.
>
> "But as we got closer, it just disappeared. The next thing we knew, it had
> leaped out of the water and landed in the boat, right on top of Byron.
>
> "We grabbed him from under the fish, and both boys were just shouting to
> their dad to get the fish out of the boat.
>
> "It was very heavy, but Andrew managed to lift it and heave it over the
> side.
>
> "Luckily, Byron got away with cuts and grazes.
>
> "I didn't realise there were fish that big in our waters."
>
> The experience has not put the family off sailing, and the boys were back
> out in the boat within days.
>
> Marine-watchers said several sunfish - which normally live in warm, tropical
> waters - had been seen off the Pembrokeshire coast in recent months.
>
> 'Not dangerous'
>
> Cliff Benson, who runs Sea Trust, the marine branch of the Wildlife Trust of
> South and West Wales, said sunfish could grow up to 3m long and weigh up to
> 1,360kg (3,000lb).
>
> "We get them through the summer months, but normally all people see is the
> distinctive grey fin," he explained.
>
> "They float about eating jellyfish, and our waters are particularly rich in
> jellyfish at the moment.
>
> "They're not considered dangerous. In fact, only one man has ever been
> killed by a sunfish - and that was because it landed on him and squashed
> him."
>
> Wildlife photographer Janet Baxter, from Borth, who took the picture of the
> fish above, said sea creatures leapt out of the water for all kinds of
> reasons.
>
> "I saw two young sunfish jumping around last year," she said.
>
> "The usual reasons things jump out of the water are because of food, sex, or
> parasites - but sometimes they just do it for the fun of it, because it's a
> nice feeling."

--
BA Church Education Ministries AS Business/IT specialist
http://johnw.freeshell.org/bible/
http://johnw.freeshell.org/bible/unbeliever_list.htm
2 Tim 4:2
AIM: Crucifyself03

[Logic316]

Uncle Davey wrote:
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/4192566.stm
>
> Boy struck by giant tropical fish

> Cliff Benson, who runs Sea Trust, the marine
> branch of the Wildlife Trust of South and
> West Wales, said sunfish could grow up to 3m
> long and weigh up to 1,360kg (3,000lb).


As a rule, I don't go fishing where the fish can grow bigger than me.

- Logic316



"Don't you wish there were a knob on the TV to turn up the
intelligence? There's one marked "Brightness," but it doesn't work."
-- Gallagher

[[email protected]]

Are sun fish good to eat?
"Uncle Davey" > wrote in message
...
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/4192566.stm
>
> Boy struck by giant tropical fish
>
> Sunfish pictured off Pembrokeshire by photographer Janet Baxter
>
> A four-year-old boy fishing off the west Wales coast with his parents was
> knocked over by a metre-long tropical fish which leaped aboard their boat.
>
> The Grey family were fishing off the coast of Pembrokeshire when the ocean
> sunfish - weighing around 30kg - landed on top of their son Byron.
>
> "It knocked him flying," said Vivienne Grey, from Little Haven.
>
> Sunfish - the world's largest bony fish - are native to warm, tropical
> waters and are less common in the UK.
>
> Mrs Grey and her husband Andrew had taken Byron and his brother Owen, 12,
> fishing for lobster in their 14ft boat. They were about 150m off the coast
> of Little Haven when the incident happened.
>
> "My husband said he was glad we went with him, because he's sure we
> wouldn't
> have believed him if he'd come home and told us about it," she said.
>
> OCEAN SUNFISH FACTFILE
> Its scientific name is Mola Mola - also known as the moon fish
> It is flat and disc-shaped in appearance, with a distinctive fin
> It can grow up to 3m long and weigh 1,360kg
> It is found in most of the world's tropical and temperate waters - often
> along the coastal areas where gulls can rid them of parasites
> Like many other unusual sea creatures, it is becoming more common in Welsh
> waters
> It has a has a small brain - a 200kg specimen may have a brain the size of
> a
> nut
>
>
> "We spotted the fin of the sunfish in the water and, because we knew they
> were rare, we thought we'd take the boat a bit closer to let the children
> have a look.
>
> "But as we got closer, it just disappeared. The next thing we knew, it had
> leaped out of the water and landed in the boat, right on top of Byron.
>
> "We grabbed him from under the fish, and both boys were just shouting to
> their dad to get the fish out of the boat.
>
> "It was very heavy, but Andrew managed to lift it and heave it over the
> side.
>
> "Luckily, Byron got away with cuts and grazes.
>
> "I didn't realise there were fish that big in our waters."
>
> The experience has not put the family off sailing, and the boys were back
> out in the boat within days.
>
> Marine-watchers said several sunfish - which normally live in warm,
> tropical
> waters - had been seen off the Pembrokeshire coast in recent months.
>
> 'Not dangerous'
>
> Cliff Benson, who runs Sea Trust, the marine branch of the Wildlife Trust
> of
> South and West Wales, said sunfish could grow up to 3m long and weigh up
> to
> 1,360kg (3,000lb).
>
> "We get them through the summer months, but normally all people see is the
> distinctive grey fin," he explained.
>
> "They float about eating jellyfish, and our waters are particularly rich
> in
> jellyfish at the moment.
>
> "They're not considered dangerous. In fact, only one man has ever been
> killed by a sunfish - and that was because it landed on him and squashed
> him."
>
> Wildlife photographer Janet Baxter, from Borth, who took the picture of
> the
> fish above, said sea creatures leapt out of the water for all kinds of
> reasons.
>
> "I saw two young sunfish jumping around last year," she said.
>
> "The usual reasons things jump out of the water are because of food, sex,
> or
> parasites - but sometimes they just do it for the fun of it, because it's
> a
> nice feeling."
>
>
>

[Uncle Davey]

wrote:
> Are sun fish good to eat?

They are a delicacy in those island cultures who know how to deal with
their virulent toxin, and they may even show up in some Japanese
variants of Fugu, but I would not risk it. They are a subgroup of the
pufferfishes, which contain, to a greater or lesser extent, one of the
most powerful poisons known to man, called "tetraodontoxin" - which
means the "four-toothed poison" because the fishes of the puffer fish
order all have four bony teeth to enable them to graze on corals or
other difficult foods.

Now the tetradontoxin is concentrated in certain of the internal organs
of the fish, but if it has been sick or had internal bleeding, or the
cleaning and preparation of the fish has been done with unskilled
hands, then you could get a trace of tetraodontoxin, and the result of
that would not be good. It is more powerful than cyanide, and an amount
too small to taste would leave you convulsing on the floor and choking
to death. Nevertheless, this poison is like all the things which appear
nasty actually something to be thankful for, since it is now being
harnessed to produce the new drug Tectin, which relieves pain in
terminally ill cancer patients more effectively than the previous
available pain-killers.

The sunfish's main diet is the jellyfish, and it is oblivious to, and
contains in its flesh the digested results of, the poisons in the
jellyfish stings. I'm not sure how good of an idea it is to make human
food of something that lives that way. It will also eat sea urchins,
crowns of thorns starfish, lobsters, other fishes if it can catch them,
and they get some speed up for such an ungainly shape - sudden
acceleration is their speciality.

Sealions, on the other hand, are known to eat juvenile sunfishes. I
didn't read any record of fully grown ones being eaten by anything, but
it's just as well some things prey on the juveniles, as the sunfish
lays more eggs at one spawning than any other fish. But we are not
sealions, and for us the sunfish, improperly prepared, could be like
certain wild mushrooms the ultimate gourmet experience - the food you
can only eat once before you die.

Best,

Uncle Davey
www.usenetposts.com

[Logic316]

wrote:
> Are sun fish good to eat?

Freshwater sunfish are good eating. Totally different animal though.

- Logic316




"A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring
one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their
own pursuits of industry and improvement."
-- Thomas Jefferson, First Inaugural address - 1801

[Elaine T]

Bible John wrote:
> Interesting. I remember my ocean exploration days in San Diego. Never
> been struck by a tropical fish though.

I've been bitten on the forehead by a garibaldi. Does that count?

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Elaine T]

Uncle Davey wrote:
> wrote:
>
>>Are sun fish good to eat?
>
>
> They are a delicacy in those island cultures who know how to deal with
> their virulent toxin, and they may even show up in some Japanese
> variants of Fugu, but I would not risk it. They are a subgroup of the
> pufferfishes, which contain, to a greater or lesser extent, one of the
> most powerful poisons known to man, called "tetraodontoxin" - which
> means the "four-toothed poison" because the fishes of the puffer fish
> order all have four bony teeth to enable them to graze on corals or
> other difficult foods.
>
> Now the tetradontoxin is concentrated in certain of the internal organs
> of the fish, but if it has been sick or had internal bleeding, or the
> cleaning and preparation of the fish has been done with unskilled
> hands, then you could get a trace of tetraodontoxin, and the result of
> that would not be good. It is more powerful than cyanide, and an amount
> too small to taste would leave you convulsing on the floor and choking
> to death. Nevertheless, this poison is like all the things which appear
> nasty actually something to be thankful for, since it is now being
> harnessed to produce the new drug Tectin, which relieves pain in
> terminally ill cancer patients more effectively than the previous
> available pain-killers.
>
> The sunfish's main diet is the jellyfish, and it is oblivious to, and
> contains in its flesh the digested results of, the poisons in the
> jellyfish stings. I'm not sure how good of an idea it is to make human
> food of something that lives that way. It will also eat sea urchins,
> crowns of thorns starfish, lobsters, other fishes if it can catch them,
> and they get some speed up for such an ungainly shape - sudden
> acceleration is their speciality.
>
> Sealions, on the other hand, are known to eat juvenile sunfishes. I
> didn't read any record of fully grown ones being eaten by anything, but
> it's just as well some things prey on the juveniles, as the sunfish
> lays more eggs at one spawning than any other fish. But we are not
> sealions, and for us the sunfish, improperly prepared, could be like
> certain wild mushrooms the ultimate gourmet experience - the food you
> can only eat once before you die.
>
> Best,
>
> Uncle Davey
> www.usenetposts.com

I've never seen tetrodotoxin (TTX, CAS Number [4368-28-9]) called
"tetradontoxin" or "tetraodontoxin." TTX is produced in amphibians,
marine vertebrates, crustaceans, and molluscs by a number of different
symbiotic bacteria. About 80 animals so far (including sunfish) have
been found to have mechanisms for housing the bacteria and using the TTX
as defense or venom without killing themselves. The bacterial origin of
TTX was first suspected when fugu puffers raised in captivity didn't
have TTX in their tissues. When fed the flesh of toxic fish, they
started to accumulate their toxin themselves.

I doubt sunfish accumulate any jellyfish toxin in their flesh.
Jellyfish and other cnidarian toxins are polypeptiedes and are digested
once they reach the stomach. That's why meat tenderizer works so nicely
on many stings.

Every neuroscientist I've ever known (me included) is interested in TTX.
It's a perfectly engineered, potent, specific sodium channel blocker
that very effectively halts nerve transmission. The molecule actually
physically fits down into the channel to make the block.

Anyway...I could go on for a while about TTX, but here are a couple of
decent references instead if your curiousity tends towards the morbid
side. :-)

http://www.chm.bris.ac.uk/motm/ttx/ttx.htm
http://sulcus.berkeley.edu/mcb/165_001/papers/manuscripts/_136.html

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[2pods]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
. ..
> Bible John wrote:
>> Interesting. I remember my ocean exploration days in San Diego. Never
>> been struck by a tropical fish though.
>
> I've been bitten on the forehead by a garibaldi. Does that count?
>

Ooooh, ferocious biscuits !
;-)

Peter

[Dr Engelbert Buxbaum]

Uncle Davey wrote:


> Now the tetradontoxin is concentrated in certain of the internal organs
> of the fish, but if it has been sick or had internal bleeding, or the
> cleaning and preparation of the fish has been done with unskilled
> hands, then you could get a trace of tetraodontoxin, and the result of
> that would not be good. It is more powerful than cyanide, and an amount
> too small to taste would leave you convulsing on the floor and choking
> to death.

Not quite, actually. Tetrodotoxin is a sodium channel blocker and makes
you unable to move. It is assumed by some sources to be the active
ingredient of voodoo poison, making the victim appear dead. He/she is
then burried fully concious, but paralysed. Victims are later dug up and
revitalised (suffering permanent brain damage in the process) by voodoo
practitioneers and used for slave labour. That is the basis of all those
z-rated Hollywood movies about the return of the living dead.

The reason why fugu is considered a delicacy is that, even when
carefully prepared, it contains small amounts of tetrodotoxin, the
resulting slight poissoning leads to a strange feeling as facial muscles
are partially paralysed. It is this feeling, not the taste of the fish,
that is sought by pundits. (I refrain from comment)

[Rick]

My Oscar bit me more then once, he's a bit moody at times. :)

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
. ..
> Bible John wrote:
>> Interesting. I remember my ocean exploration days in San Diego. Never
>> been struck by a tropical fish though.
>
> I've been bitten on the forehead by a garibaldi. Does that count?
>
> --
> Elaine T __
> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Mike Painter]

Rick wrote:
> My Oscar bit me more then once, he's a bit moody at times. :)
>
> "Elaine T" > wrote in message
> . ..
>> Bible John wrote:
>>> Interesting. I remember my ocean exploration days in San Diego. Never
>>> been struck by a tropical fish though.
>>
>> I've been bitten on the forehead by a garibaldi. Does that count?
>>
I had a fish ram my mask in Russian Gulch in Northern California.
I believe it was deliberate.
It was hard to see and I had a class with me so I prodded it to get it to
move.
It would move a bit then settle and I'd show the next group.
About the third time it came up off the bottom rammed me and then swam off
between us.
It had a lot of space and it picked me.

[Grinder]

Mike Painter wrote:
> Rick wrote:
>
>>My Oscar bit me more then once, he's a bit moody at times. :)
>>
>>"Elaine T" > wrote in message
. ..
>>
>>>Bible John wrote:
>>>
>>>>Interesting. I remember my ocean exploration days in San Diego. Never
>>>>been struck by a tropical fish though.
>>>
>>>I've been bitten on the forehead by a garibaldi. Does that count?
>>>
>
> I had a fish ram my mask in Russian Gulch in Northern California.
> I believe it was deliberate.
> It was hard to see and I had a class with me so I prodded it to get it to
> move.
> It would move a bit then settle and I'd show the next group.
> About the third time it came up off the bottom rammed me and then swam off
> between us.
> It had a lot of space and it picked me.

It sounds like you deserved it.

[Uncle Davey]

Uzytkownik "Elaine T" > napisal w wiadomosci
.. .
> Uncle Davey wrote:
> > wrote:
> >
> >>Are sun fish good to eat?
> >
> >
> > They are a delicacy in those island cultures who know how to deal with
> > their virulent toxin, and they may even show up in some Japanese
> > variants of Fugu, but I would not risk it. They are a subgroup of the
> > pufferfishes, which contain, to a greater or lesser extent, one of the
> > most powerful poisons known to man, called "tetraodontoxin" - which
> > means the "four-toothed poison" because the fishes of the puffer fish
> > order all have four bony teeth to enable them to graze on corals or
> > other difficult foods.
> >
> > Now the tetradontoxin is concentrated in certain of the internal organs
> > of the fish, but if it has been sick or had internal bleeding, or the
> > cleaning and preparation of the fish has been done with unskilled
> > hands, then you could get a trace of tetraodontoxin, and the result of
> > that would not be good. It is more powerful than cyanide, and an amount
> > too small to taste would leave you convulsing on the floor and choking
> > to death. Nevertheless, this poison is like all the things which appear
> > nasty actually something to be thankful for, since it is now being
> > harnessed to produce the new drug Tectin, which relieves pain in
> > terminally ill cancer patients more effectively than the previous
> > available pain-killers.
> >
> > The sunfish's main diet is the jellyfish, and it is oblivious to, and
> > contains in its flesh the digested results of, the poisons in the
> > jellyfish stings. I'm not sure how good of an idea it is to make human
> > food of something that lives that way. It will also eat sea urchins,
> > crowns of thorns starfish, lobsters, other fishes if it can catch them,
> > and they get some speed up for such an ungainly shape - sudden
> > acceleration is their speciality.
> >
> > Sealions, on the other hand, are known to eat juvenile sunfishes. I
> > didn't read any record of fully grown ones being eaten by anything, but
> > it's just as well some things prey on the juveniles, as the sunfish
> > lays more eggs at one spawning than any other fish. But we are not
> > sealions, and for us the sunfish, improperly prepared, could be like
> > certain wild mushrooms the ultimate gourmet experience - the food you
> > can only eat once before you die.
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Uncle Davey
> > www.usenetposts.com
>
> I've never seen tetrodotoxin (TTX, CAS Number [4368-28-9]) called
> "tetradontoxin" or "tetraodontoxin."

Well, with your spelling it has more hits, but my spelling is true to the
origins of the word, namely the tetraodontiformes' poison.

Maybe "tetrodotoxin" is the accepted US spelling. Most of the UK sources
spell it my way.

> TTX is produced in amphibians,
> marine vertebrates, crustaceans, and molluscs by a number of different
> symbiotic bacteria. About 80 animals so far (including sunfish) have
> been found to have mechanisms for housing the bacteria and using the TTX
> as defense or venom without killing themselves. The bacterial origin of
> TTX was first suspected when fugu puffers raised in captivity didn't
> have TTX in their tissues. When fed the flesh of toxic fish, they
> started to accumulate their toxin themselves.

Cool.

Why didn't it kill them if they had no inbuilt resistance to it?

>
> I doubt sunfish accumulate any jellyfish toxin in their flesh.
> Jellyfish and other cnidarian toxins are polypeptiedes and are digested
> once they reach the stomach. That's why meat tenderizer works so nicely
> on many stings.

I didn't say they accumulated jellyfish toxins, but the digested results of
the toxins of the jellyfish.

Maybe they turn into a bunch of harmless amino acids, but I just don't like
the idea of it that much.

>
> Every neuroscientist I've ever known (me included) is interested in TTX.
> It's a perfectly engineered, potent, specific sodium channel blocker
> that very effectively halts nerve transmission. The molecule actually
> physically fits down into the channel to make the block.

I saw one place claimed it to be something like 3000 times stronger an
anaesthetic than morphine, and I wondered how they could possibly make such
measurements. Does it mean that you need only 1/3000 as many molecules of it
to get the same effect?

>
> Anyway...I could go on for a while about TTX, but here are a couple of
> decent references instead if your curiousity tends towards the morbid
> side. :-)
>
> http://www.chm.bris.ac.uk/motm/ttx/ttx.htm

Very interesting. The author puts the evolution of the symbiosis down to a
gene change noted in Fugu rubripes, but surely according to the theory of
evolution that mutation would have to have been in the common ancestor of
all Tetraodonts, since they presumably all have that genetic advantage in
the sodium ion channel?

> http://sulcus.berkeley.edu/mcb/165_001/papers/manuscripts/_136.html
>

It was interesting the way this author suggests that people eat the Fugu
precisely for the sensation of a trace of tetradontoxin!

Presumably, you get nuts with that. Nuts eating it, anyway. I wouldn't.

Uncle Davey
www.usenetposts.com

[Uncle Davey]

U¿ytkownik "Dr Engelbert Buxbaum" > napisa³ w
wiadomo¶ci ...
> Uncle Davey wrote:
>
>
> > Now the tetradontoxin is concentrated in certain of the internal organs
> > of the fish, but if it has been sick or had internal bleeding, or the
> > cleaning and preparation of the fish has been done with unskilled
> > hands, then you could get a trace of tetraodontoxin, and the result of
> > that would not be good. It is more powerful than cyanide, and an amount
> > too small to taste would leave you convulsing on the floor and choking
> > to death.
>
> Not quite, actually. Tetrodotoxin is a sodium channel blocker and makes
> you unable to move. It is assumed by some sources to be the active
> ingredient of voodoo poison, making the victim appear dead. He/she is
> then burried fully concious, but paralysed. Victims are later dug up and
> revitalised (suffering permanent brain damage in the process) by voodoo
> practitioneers and used for slave labour. That is the basis of all those
> z-rated Hollywood movies about the return of the living dead.
>
> The reason why fugu is considered a delicacy is that, even when
> carefully prepared, it contains small amounts of tetrodotoxin, the
> resulting slight poissoning leads to a strange feeling as facial muscles
> are partially paralysed. It is this feeling, not the taste of the fish,
> that is sought by pundits. (I refrain from comment)

Like I said to Elaine, I wouldn't eat it.

What is of course interesting is the ready availibility of puffer fish in
aquarium stores, which presumably could easily be used by people to poison
their bosses and rich but unloved relatives.

Presumably these bacteria could be cultured also on Agar or something.

Uncle Davey

[Uncle Davey]

Uzytkownik "Grinder" > napisal w wiadomosci
news:CwcRe.318535$xm3.18102@attbi_s21...
> Mike Painter wrote:
> > Rick wrote:
> >
> >>My Oscar bit me more then once, he's a bit moody at times. :)
> >>
> >>"Elaine T" > wrote in message
> . ..
> >>
> >>>Bible John wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>Interesting. I remember my ocean exploration days in San Diego. Never
> >>>>been struck by a tropical fish though.
> >>>
> >>>I've been bitten on the forehead by a garibaldi. Does that count?
> >>>
> >
> > I had a fish ram my mask in Russian Gulch in Northern California.
> > I believe it was deliberate.
> > It was hard to see and I had a class with me so I prodded it to get it
to
> > move.
> > It would move a bit then settle and I'd show the next group.
> > About the third time it came up off the bottom rammed me and then swam
off
> > between us.
> > It had a lot of space and it picked me.
>
> It sounds like you deserved it.

Did it by any chance look like any of these?

http://images.google.co.uk/images?svnum=10&hl=en&lr=&q=scorpaena&btnG=Search

Uncle Davey

[Mike Painter]

Uncle Davey wrote:
> Uzytkownik "Grinder" > napisal w wiadomosci
> news:CwcRe.318535$xm3.18102@attbi_s21...
>> Mike Painter wrote:
>>> Rick wrote:
>>>
>>>> My Oscar bit me more then once, he's a bit moody at times. :)
>>>>
>>>> "Elaine T" > wrote in message
>>>> . ..
>>>>
>>>>> Bible John wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Interesting. I remember my ocean exploration days in San Diego.
>>>>>> Never been struck by a tropical fish though.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've been bitten on the forehead by a garibaldi. Does that count?
>>>>>
>>>
>>> I had a fish ram my mask in Russian Gulch in Northern California.
>>> I believe it was deliberate.
>>> It was hard to see and I had a class with me so I prodded it to get
>>> it to move.
>>> It would move a bit then settle and I'd show the next group.
>>> About the third time it came up off the bottom rammed me and then
>>> swam off between us.
>>> It had a lot of space and it picked me.
>>
>> It sounds like you deserved it.

I was gentle and meant it no harm, but I did deserve it.


>
> Did it by any chance look like any of these?
>
> http://images.google.co.uk/images?svnum=10&hl=en&lr=&q=scorpaena&btnG=Search
>
> Uncle Davey
No, just one of the common and harmless beasties along the north coast of
California.

When I lived in Baja I used to walk down to the beach and wade out to about
waist deep water, then bend over and look under a rock.
About every other day there would be a lobster...

One day I noticed something that made your pictures look cute. It took a
couple minutes to convince myself it was real. I've also seen them (rarely)
partially embedded in open sandy bottoms.

[Elaine T]

Uncle Davey wrote:
> Uzytkownik "Elaine T" > napisal w wiadomosci
> .. .
>
>>Uncle Davey wrote:

<snip>

>>I've never seen tetrodotoxin (TTX, CAS Number [4368-28-9]) called
>>"tetradontoxin" or "tetraodontoxin."
>
> Well, with your spelling it has more hits, but my spelling is true to the
> origins of the word, namely the tetraodontiformes' poison.
>
> Maybe "tetrodotoxin" is the accepted US spelling. Most of the UK sources
> spell it my way.

Ah. Must be spelled differently on opposite sides of the pond. The
etymology of the UK spelling is appealing.

>>TTX is produced in amphibians,
>>marine vertebrates, crustaceans, and molluscs by a number of different
>>symbiotic bacteria. About 80 animals so far (including sunfish) have
>>been found to have mechanisms for housing the bacteria and using the TTX
>>as defense or venom without killing themselves. The bacterial origin of
>>TTX was first suspected when fugu puffers raised in captivity didn't
>>have TTX in their tissues. When fed the flesh of toxic fish, they
>>started to accumulate their toxin themselves.
>
>
> Cool.
>
> Why didn't it kill them if they had no inbuilt resistance to it?

They do have resistance. Naive Fugu still have the TTX resistant sodium
channels and plasma binding proteins that protect toxin-producing fish.
Even more interesting, a Japanese group fed pure, crystalline TTX to a
Fugu fish and it accmulated the toxin and retained part of it.
(Apologies for the long Pubmed URLs).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15272603&query_hl=1

>>I doubt sunfish accumulate any jellyfish toxin in their flesh.
>>Jellyfish and other cnidarian toxins are polypeptiedes and are digested
>>once they reach the stomach. That's why meat tenderizer works so nicely
>>on many stings.
>
>
> I didn't say they accumulated jellyfish toxins, but the digested results of
> the toxins of the jellyfish.
>
> Maybe they turn into a bunch of harmless amino acids, but I just don't like
> the idea of it that much.
>
>
>>Every neuroscientist I've ever known (me included) is interested in TTX.
>> It's a perfectly engineered, potent, specific sodium channel blocker
>>that very effectively halts nerve transmission. The molecule actually
>>physically fits down into the channel to make the block.
>
>
> I saw one place claimed it to be something like 3000 times stronger an
> anaesthetic than morphine, and I wondered how they could possibly make such
> measurements. Does it mean that you need only 1/3000 as many molecules of it
> to get the same effect?

When comparing drugs with very different mechanisms of action, those
sorts of calculations are often based the ratio of the ED50s in mg/kg.
That means you would need 1/3000th as much in mg. There are other
caveats about ratios like that. Are the ED50s from the same organism?
What measurement of pain was used to find the ED50? Are the effects
equally disparate across other types of pain?

>>Anyway...I could go on for a while about TTX, but here are a couple of
>>decent references instead if your curiousity tends towards the morbid
>>side. :-)
>>
>>http://www.chm.bris.ac.uk/motm/ttx/ttx.htm
>
>
> Very interesting. The author puts the evolution of the symbiosis down to a
> gene change noted in Fugu rubripes, but surely according to the theory of
> evolution that mutation would have to have been in the common ancestor of
> all Tetraodonts, since they presumably all have that genetic advantage in
> the sodium ion channel?

There may be more going on than just the sodium channel mutation. Fugu
pardalis has a plasma tetrodotoxin and saxitoxin binding protein as
well. The protein may be involved in accumulation or protection from
TTX. Also, the author does not say when in the evolution of tetraodonts
the mutation happened either. It may be only in the Fugu spp. branch.
Here's the binding protein link.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11722582&query_hl=1

>>http://sulcus.berkeley.edu/mcb/165_001/papers/manuscripts/_136.html
>>
>
>
> It was interesting the way this author suggests that people eat the Fugu
> precisely for the sensation of a trace of tetradontoxin!
>
> Presumably, you get nuts with that. Nuts eating it, anyway. I wouldn't.

Are you kidding? I know way too much about TTX to want to risk eating
the stuff! Sunfish are now officially out as well. ;-)

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Uncle Davey]

U¿ytkownik "Mike Painter" > napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
> Uncle Davey wrote:
> > Uzytkownik "Grinder" > napisal w wiadomosci
> > news:CwcRe.318535$xm3.18102@attbi_s21...
> >> Mike Painter wrote:
> >>> Rick wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> My Oscar bit me more then once, he's a bit moody at times. :)
> >>>>
> >>>> "Elaine T" > wrote in message
> >>>> . ..
> >>>>
> >>>>> Bible John wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Interesting. I remember my ocean exploration days in San Diego.
> >>>>>> Never been struck by a tropical fish though.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I've been bitten on the forehead by a garibaldi. Does that count?
> >>>>>
> >>>
> >>> I had a fish ram my mask in Russian Gulch in Northern California.
> >>> I believe it was deliberate.
> >>> It was hard to see and I had a class with me so I prodded it to get
> >>> it to move.
> >>> It would move a bit then settle and I'd show the next group.
> >>> About the third time it came up off the bottom rammed me and then
> >>> swam off between us.
> >>> It had a lot of space and it picked me.
> >>
> >> It sounds like you deserved it.
>
> I was gentle and meant it no harm, but I did deserve it.
>
>
> >
> > Did it by any chance look like any of these?
> >
> >
http://images.google.co.uk/images?svnum=10&hl=en&lr=&q=scorpaena&btnG=Search
> >
> > Uncle Davey
> No, just one of the common and harmless beasties along the north coast of
> California.
>
> When I lived in Baja I used to walk down to the beach and wade out to
about
> waist deep water, then bend over and look under a rock.
> About every other day there would be a lobster...
>
> One day I noticed something that made your pictures look cute. It took a
> couple minutes to convince myself it was real. I've also seen them
(rarely)
> partially embedded in open sandy bottoms.
>

Was it this?

http://images.google.co.uk/images?svnum=10&hl=en&q=anarhichas&spell=1

Or this?

http://images.google.co.uk/images?svnum=10&hl=en&lr=&q=cyclopterus+&btnG=Sea
rch

and here's something really unusual:

http://www.seawater.no/fauna/Fisk/montagui.htm

[Grinder]

Mike Painter wrote:
> Uncle Davey wrote:
>
>>Uzytkownik "Grinder" > napisal w wiadomosci
>>news:CwcRe.318535$xm3.18102@attbi_s21...
>>
>>>Mike Painter wrote:
>>>
>>>>Rick wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>My Oscar bit me more then once, he's a bit moody at times. :)
>>>>>
>>>>>"Elaine T" > wrote in message
. ..
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Bible John wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Interesting. I remember my ocean exploration days in San Diego.
>>>>>>>Never been struck by a tropical fish though.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I've been bitten on the forehead by a garibaldi. Does that count?
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I had a fish ram my mask in Russian Gulch in Northern California.
>>>>I believe it was deliberate.
>>>>It was hard to see and I had a class with me so I prodded it to get
>>>>it to move.
>>>>It would move a bit then settle and I'd show the next group.
>>>>About the third time it came up off the bottom rammed me and then
>>>>swam off between us.
>>>>It had a lot of space and it picked me.
>>>
>>>It sounds like you deserved it.
>
>
> I was gentle and meant it no harm, but I did deserve it.

Sometimes I'm a bit too dry. Also, my aversion to smilies sometimes
camouflages my demeanor.

[Dr Engelbert Buxbaum]

Uncle Davey wrote:

> What is of course interesting is the ready availibility of puffer fish in
> aquarium stores, which presumably could easily be used by people to poison
> their bosses and rich but unloved relatives.

If you know what you are doing there are so many things usable to
poisson others, that no society would work if you banned all of them.

[Dr Engelbert Buxbaum]

Mike Painter wrote:


> I had a fish ram my mask in Russian Gulch in Northern California.
> I believe it was deliberate.
> It was hard to see and I had a class with me so I prodded it to get it to
> move.
> It would move a bit then settle and I'd show the next group.
> About the third time it came up off the bottom rammed me and then swam off
> between us.
> It had a lot of space and it picked me.

One interesting experience diving is how fiercly even small fish will
protect their home or their offspring against even a big invader like
man. A clownfish protecting is anemony is as fierce as a lioness
protecting her cubbs.

[Uncle Davey]

U¿ytkownik "Dr Engelbert Buxbaum" > napisa³ w
wiadomo¶ci ...
> Uncle Davey wrote:
>
> > What is of course interesting is the ready availibility of puffer fish
in
> > aquarium stores, which presumably could easily be used by people to
poison
> > their bosses and rich but unloved relatives.
>
> If you know what you are doing there are so many things usable to
> poisson others, that no society would work if you banned all of them.

True. Poissons are so widespread that statistically speaking they are a
"distribution". I saw that on the white board when I was in accountancy
college.

Uncle Davey

[Elaine T]

Uncle Davey wrote:
> U¿ytkownik "Dr Engelbert Buxbaum" > napisa³ w
> wiadomo¶ci ...
>
>>Uncle Davey wrote:
>>
>>
>>>What is of course interesting is the ready availibility of puffer fish
>
> in
>
>>>aquarium stores, which presumably could easily be used by people to
>
> poison
>
>>>their bosses and rich but unloved relatives.
>>
>>If you know what you are doing there are so many things usable to
>>poisson others, that no society would work if you banned all of them.
>
>
> True. Poissons are so widespread that statistically speaking they are a
> "distribution". I saw that on the white board when I was in accountancy
> college.
>
> Uncle Davey
>

And the number of people poisoned by fugu or other causes could
certainly be modeled very nicely with a poisson distribition. ;-)

I'm always amused when I see big, ornamental castor bean plants in
people's yards.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Uncle Davey]

Uzytkownik "Elaine T" > napisal w wiadomosci
.. .
> Uncle Davey wrote:
> > U¿ytkownik "Dr Engelbert Buxbaum" >
napisa³ w
> > wiadomo¶ci ...
> >
> >>Uncle Davey wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>What is of course interesting is the ready availibility of puffer fish
> >
> > in
> >
> >>>aquarium stores, which presumably could easily be used by people to
> >
> > poison
> >
> >>>their bosses and rich but unloved relatives.
> >>
> >>If you know what you are doing there are so many things usable to
> >>poisson others, that no society would work if you banned all of them.
> >
> >
> > True. Poissons are so widespread that statistically speaking they are a
> > "distribution". I saw that on the white board when I was in accountancy
> > college.
> >
> > Uncle Davey
> >
>
> And the number of people poisoned by fugu or other causes could
> certainly be modeled very nicely with a poisson distribition. ;-)
>
> I'm always amused when I see big, ornamental castor bean plants in
> people's yards.

I expect they think it blends nicely with the Ricinus, Convallaria,
Euphorbia and Digitalis.

Best,

Uncle Davey

http://www.usenetposts.com
::Foreigners living in Poland Forum::
http://forum.gazeta.pl/forum/71,1.html?f=29887

[Dr Engelbert Buxbaum]

Elaine T wrote:

> And the number of people poisoned by fugu or other causes could
> certainly be modeled very nicely with a poisson distribition. ;-)

Which reminds me that the Poison distribution was originally discoved by
Major Bortkievitz from the Prussian army, who wondered why in some years
so many soldiers got killed by horse hoofes, and in other years none.

[sophie]

Uncle Davey said this:
>
> U¿ytkownik "Dr Engelbert Buxbaum" > napisa³ w
> wiadomo¶ci ...
>> Uncle Davey wrote:
>>
>>> What is of course interesting is the ready availibility of puffer fish
> in
>>> aquarium stores, which presumably could easily be used by people to
> poison
>>> their bosses and rich but unloved relatives.
>>
>> If you know what you are doing there are so many things usable to
>> poisson others, that no society would work if you banned all of them.
>
> True. Poissons are so widespread

can I just say that this is the most lovely typo I have ever seen?
thank you!


that statistically speaking they are a
> "distribution". I saw that on the white board when I was in accountancy
> college.
>
> Uncle Davey
>
>



--
sophie

[Gill Passman]

"Dr Engelbert Buxbaum" > wrote in message
...
> Mike Painter wrote:
>
>
> > I had a fish ram my mask in Russian Gulch in Northern California.
> > I believe it was deliberate.
> > It was hard to see and I had a class with me so I prodded it to get it
to
> > move.
> > It would move a bit then settle and I'd show the next group.
> > About the third time it came up off the bottom rammed me and then swam
off
> > between us.
> > It had a lot of space and it picked me.
>
> One interesting experience diving is how fiercly even small fish will
> protect their home or their offspring against even a big invader like
> man. A clownfish protecting is anemony is as fierce as a lioness
> protecting her cubbs.

One of my Mbuna bit me today when I was feeding them frozen Daphinia -
nothing quite like biting the hand that feeds you - lol. Stung for a good 30
mins - wish I had identified the culprit - it could have been a trip to the
LFS for him.....any more bites and they are in big trouble :-) Cichlid
sticks for ever if there any repeat performances - lol

Gill