Rams Changing Colour

[Fantastic Derek]

Hi

I bought a couple of Rams. Unfortunately the guy at my LFS told me
that two males would be ok together and while they don't seem to fight
too much one is definitely the more dominant and chases the other one
off whenever he sees him. Thay both develpoed what I assumed was white
spot last week so I started to treat the tank with esha exit as I read
somewhere this was quite a good gentle medicine to give to a ram and
the spots are starting to disappear.

The thing is the submissive one does a very strange thing. When we
first got them the black stripe on his face was very pale, but after a
while it became very pronounced like the one on his colleague's face.
However recently it has faded again. Very wierd. In fact I have seen
it come back momentarily, especially when he flicks his fin up. It's
like he's blushing. However, the stripe completely disappears when he
fronts up to other one. Is this a sign of submission on his part?

I'm about to move them all into a much bigger tank (at the moment
they're in a 17G tank) - will this help or is there even a problem at
all?

[Gill Passman]

"Fantastic Derek" > wrote in message
...
> Hi
>
> I bought a couple of Rams. Unfortunately the guy at my LFS told me
> that two males would be ok together and while they don't seem to fight
> too much one is definitely the more dominant and chases the other one
> off whenever he sees him. Thay both develpoed what I assumed was white
> spot last week so I started to treat the tank with esha exit as I read
> somewhere this was quite a good gentle medicine to give to a ram and
> the spots are starting to disappear.
>
> The thing is the submissive one does a very strange thing. When we
> first got them the black stripe on his face was very pale, but after a
> while it became very pronounced like the one on his colleague's face.
> However recently it has faded again. Very wierd. In fact I have seen
> it come back momentarily, especially when he flicks his fin up. It's
> like he's blushing. However, the stripe completely disappears when he
> fronts up to other one. Is this a sign of submission on his part?
>
> I'm about to move them all into a much bigger tank (at the moment
> they're in a 17G tank) - will this help or is there even a problem at
> all?

I've not been able to keep Rams successfully - the longest time period being
2-3 months with each in separate tanks. My worst experience as a beginner
was putting 3 in and have two die on me within half an hour of adding them -
it was also my first introduction into the routine of checking water
chemistry - I had a slight ammonia spike. The remaining one got moved to the
15gall were he did just fine til I messed things up by introducing a Betta -
he nearly killed the betta. I then put him back into the Community Tank
which contained another Ram that I had bought a couple of months before -
neither thrived. Like you I saw the aggression between the two and they
actually both died... :-(

I've done some research since and as much as I would dearly love to try
again I don't think our water parameters really suit them - they prefer soft
water with a lower pH. I'm tempted to experiment with the 15gall with adding
peat etc. and trying again but am a little shaken after the Clown Loach loss
in that tank when using it as QT.

Take a look at the following links for info on Rams. There are also some
photos showing white areas on the fish which I seem to remember as pretty
normal - is this the sort of thing that you saw or where there definite
sugar grain type spots?

http://hjem.get2net.dk/Best_of_the_Web/blue%20rams.html
http://badmanstropicalfish.com/profiles/profile3.html
http://www.aquatic-hobbyist.com/profiles/freshwater/cichlids/blueram.html
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/rams.htm

There's lots more info available if you do a google on "gold ram fish" -
don't leave the word fish off the end - I did once - it was quite an
education - lol

Gill

[Fantastic Derek]

Cheers again!

I bought these from our friend in Henley so I assumed (and he
confirmed) that they were acclimatised to the high pH round here. I
think it is white spot they've got as the spots weren't on them when I
got them. Also one of my other fish seemed to get it a little bit as
well, but as I say, I've been treating them and it's definitely going.
They both seem pretty active/ happy so I'll see how it goes when I put
them in the new tank. They'll have a lot more territory each then.

On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 19:32:40 +0100, "Gill Passman"
<gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote:

>
>"Fantastic Derek" > wrote in message
...
>> Hi
>>
>> I bought a couple of Rams. Unfortunately the guy at my LFS told me
>> that two males would be ok together and while they don't seem to fight
>> too much one is definitely the more dominant and chases the other one
>> off whenever he sees him. Thay both develpoed what I assumed was white
>> spot last week so I started to treat the tank with esha exit as I read
>> somewhere this was quite a good gentle medicine to give to a ram and
>> the spots are starting to disappear.
>>
>> The thing is the submissive one does a very strange thing. When we
>> first got them the black stripe on his face was very pale, but after a
>> while it became very pronounced like the one on his colleague's face.
>> However recently it has faded again. Very wierd. In fact I have seen
>> it come back momentarily, especially when he flicks his fin up. It's
>> like he's blushing. However, the stripe completely disappears when he
>> fronts up to other one. Is this a sign of submission on his part?
>>
>> I'm about to move them all into a much bigger tank (at the moment
>> they're in a 17G tank) - will this help or is there even a problem at
>> all?
>
>I've not been able to keep Rams successfully - the longest time period being
>2-3 months with each in separate tanks. My worst experience as a beginner
>was putting 3 in and have two die on me within half an hour of adding them -
>it was also my first introduction into the routine of checking water
>chemistry - I had a slight ammonia spike. The remaining one got moved to the
>15gall were he did just fine til I messed things up by introducing a Betta -
>he nearly killed the betta. I then put him back into the Community Tank
>which contained another Ram that I had bought a couple of months before -
>neither thrived. Like you I saw the aggression between the two and they
>actually both died... :-(
>
>I've done some research since and as much as I would dearly love to try
>again I don't think our water parameters really suit them - they prefer soft
>water with a lower pH. I'm tempted to experiment with the 15gall with adding
>peat etc. and trying again but am a little shaken after the Clown Loach loss
>in that tank when using it as QT.
>
>Take a look at the following links for info on Rams. There are also some
>photos showing white areas on the fish which I seem to remember as pretty
>normal - is this the sort of thing that you saw or where there definite
>sugar grain type spots?
>
>http://hjem.get2net.dk/Best_of_the_Web/blue%20rams.html
>http://badmanstropicalfish.com/profiles/profile3.html
>http://www.aquatic-hobbyist.com/profiles/freshwater/cichlids/blueram.html
>http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/rams.htm
>
>There's lots more info available if you do a google on "gold ram fish" -
>don't leave the word fish off the end - I did once - it was quite an
>education - lol
>
>Gill
>
>

[Elaine T]

Fantastic Derek wrote:
> Hi
>
> I bought a couple of Rams. Unfortunately the guy at my LFS told me
> that two males would be ok together and while they don't seem to fight
> too much one is definitely the more dominant and chases the other one
> off whenever he sees him. Thay both develpoed what I assumed was white
> spot last week so I started to treat the tank with esha exit as I read
> somewhere this was quite a good gentle medicine to give to a ram and
> the spots are starting to disappear.
>
> The thing is the submissive one does a very strange thing. When we
> first got them the black stripe on his face was very pale, but after a
> while it became very pronounced like the one on his colleague's face.
> However recently it has faded again. Very wierd. In fact I have seen
> it come back momentarily, especially when he flicks his fin up. It's
> like he's blushing. However, the stripe completely disappears when he
> fronts up to other one. Is this a sign of submission on his part?
>
> I'm about to move them all into a much bigger tank (at the moment
> they're in a 17G tank) - will this help or is there even a problem at
> all?

The color changes are typical cichlid antics. In South Americans
including rams, overall vertical striping on a pale background indicates
stress. Good color with strong black bars like the one through the
ram's eye show a relaxed, healthy fish. The colors intensify when the
fish is ready to breed. Your fish's pale stripe is most likely a sign
of submission as you suspect.

If the male who is lower on the totem pole is able to eat, is not
getting his fins nipped, keeps good yellow and blue color without going
to pale color and all-over vertical barring, and has somewhere to hide
at least part of the time, he will be fine.

Moving the fish to a larger tank will definately help because each male
will probably set up a territory of his own.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Gill Passman]

"Fantastic Derek" > wrote in message
...
> Cheers again!
>
> I bought these from our friend in Henley so I assumed (and he
> confirmed) that they were acclimatised to the high pH round here. I
> think it is white spot they've got as the spots weren't on them when I
> got them. Also one of my other fish seemed to get it a little bit as
> well, but as I say, I've been treating them and it's definitely going.
> They both seem pretty active/ happy so I'll see how it goes when I put
> them in the new tank. They'll have a lot more territory each then.
>
> On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 19:32:40 +0100, "Gill Passman"
> <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Fantastic Derek" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> Hi
> >>
> >> I bought a couple of Rams. Unfortunately the guy at my LFS told me
> >> that two males would be ok together and while they don't seem to fight
> >> too much one is definitely the more dominant and chases the other one
> >> off whenever he sees him. Thay both develpoed what I assumed was white
> >> spot last week so I started to treat the tank with esha exit as I read
> >> somewhere this was quite a good gentle medicine to give to a ram and
> >> the spots are starting to disappear.
> >>
> >> The thing is the submissive one does a very strange thing. When we
> >> first got them the black stripe on his face was very pale, but after a
> >> while it became very pronounced like the one on his colleague's face.
> >> However recently it has faded again. Very wierd. In fact I have seen
> >> it come back momentarily, especially when he flicks his fin up. It's
> >> like he's blushing. However, the stripe completely disappears when he
> >> fronts up to other one. Is this a sign of submission on his part?
> >>
> >> I'm about to move them all into a much bigger tank (at the moment
> >> they're in a 17G tank) - will this help or is there even a problem at
> >> all?
> >
> >I've not been able to keep Rams successfully - the longest time period
being
> >2-3 months with each in separate tanks. My worst experience as a beginner
> >was putting 3 in and have two die on me within half an hour of adding
them -
> >it was also my first introduction into the routine of checking water
> >chemistry - I had a slight ammonia spike. The remaining one got moved to
the
> >15gall were he did just fine til I messed things up by introducing a
Betta -
> >he nearly killed the betta. I then put him back into the Community Tank
> >which contained another Ram that I had bought a couple of months before -
> >neither thrived. Like you I saw the aggression between the two and they
> >actually both died... :-(
> >
> >I've done some research since and as much as I would dearly love to try
> >again I don't think our water parameters really suit them - they prefer
soft
> >water with a lower pH. I'm tempted to experiment with the 15gall with
adding
> >peat etc. and trying again but am a little shaken after the Clown Loach
loss
> >in that tank when using it as QT.
> >
> >Take a look at the following links for info on Rams. There are also some
> >photos showing white areas on the fish which I seem to remember as pretty
> >normal - is this the sort of thing that you saw or where there definite
> >sugar grain type spots?
> >
> >http://hjem.get2net.dk/Best_of_the_Web/blue%20rams.html
> >http://badmanstropicalfish.com/profiles/profile3.html
> >http://www.aquatic-hobbyist.com/profiles/freshwater/cichlids/blueram.html
> >http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/rams.htm
> >
> >There's lots more info available if you do a google on "gold ram fish" -
> >don't leave the word fish off the end - I did once - it was quite an
> >education - lol
> >
> >Gill
> >
> >
Hi Derek,

Can you please let me know for sure if it was Ich/White Spot...by this I
mean the sugar/salt grain type of spots....I'm losing fish here and want to
be certain before shouting....last casualty was one of my gobies
tonight...plus one rainbow, 3 Neons, 3 Clowns....and I think I have some
missing guppies....I need to know if I need to close down on additions for a
while and go with some treatment..we are buying from the same place - I need
to know...

Thanks
Gill

[Pedro]

I have to agree with Elaine on her comments. I have 8 Bolivian Rams in a 58G
tank.
They exhibit great color when they want to breed. Try feeding them a diverse
diet that includes live food, frozen and pellets.
They get great black color and an awesome orange coloration in their bottom.



"Elaine T" > wrote in message
.. .
> Fantastic Derek wrote:
>> Hi
>>
>> I bought a couple of Rams. Unfortunately the guy at my LFS told me
>> that two males would be ok together and while they don't seem to fight
>> too much one is definitely the more dominant and chases the other one
>> off whenever he sees him. Thay both develpoed what I assumed was white
>> spot last week so I started to treat the tank with esha exit as I read
>> somewhere this was quite a good gentle medicine to give to a ram and
>> the spots are starting to disappear. The thing is the submissive one does
>> a very strange thing. When we
>> first got them the black stripe on his face was very pale, but after a
>> while it became very pronounced like the one on his colleague's face.
>> However recently it has faded again. Very wierd. In fact I have seen
>> it come back momentarily, especially when he flicks his fin up. It's
>> like he's blushing. However, the stripe completely disappears when he
>> fronts up to other one. Is this a sign of submission on his part?
>>
>> I'm about to move them all into a much bigger tank (at the moment
>> they're in a 17G tank) - will this help or is there even a problem at
>> all?
>
> The color changes are typical cichlid antics. In South Americans
> including rams, overall vertical striping on a pale background indicates
> stress. Good color with strong black bars like the one through the ram's
> eye show a relaxed, healthy fish. The colors intensify when the fish is
> ready to breed. Your fish's pale stripe is most likely a sign of
> submission as you suspect.
>
> If the male who is lower on the totem pole is able to eat, is not getting
> his fins nipped, keeps good yellow and blue color without going to pale
> color and all-over vertical barring, and has somewhere to hide at least
> part of the time, he will be fine.
>
> Moving the fish to a larger tank will definately help because each male
> will probably set up a territory of his own.
>
> --
> Elaine T __
> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Fantastic Derek]

I'm pretty sure it is. All the photos I have seen with fish on the net
show similar to what my guys have got although the salt/ sugar analogy
doesn't work for me as salt/ sugar are slightly translucent if you see
what I mean. I've tried to take a photo for you, but they've both gone
to the back of the tank where they seem to hang out at night and in
all honesty, there's nowhere near as many spots as there were a couple
of days ago. I expect them to be gone in a day or two at this rate.

I'm a little annoyed at the guy at Henley actually. I had read that
they were territorial, but my wife was the one who liked them so I
asked her to pick out a male and a female she liked while I was
looking at something else, but she obviously liked the males better
(they are bigger and prettier) and he told her they wouldn't be a
problem together. Now I'm not saying they are particularly, but
everyone who's come back to me has at least implied that two males in
a small tank like this might not be that good an idea.


On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 00:46:30 +0100, "Gill Passman"
<gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote:

>
>"Fantastic Derek" > wrote in message
...
>> Cheers again!
>>
>> I bought these from our friend in Henley so I assumed (and he
>> confirmed) that they were acclimatised to the high pH round here. I
>> think it is white spot they've got as the spots weren't on them when I
>> got them. Also one of my other fish seemed to get it a little bit as
>> well, but as I say, I've been treating them and it's definitely going.
>> They both seem pretty active/ happy so I'll see how it goes when I put
>> them in the new tank. They'll have a lot more territory each then.
>>
>> On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 19:32:40 +0100, "Gill Passman"
>> <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Fantastic Derek" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >> Hi
>> >>
>> >> I bought a couple of Rams. Unfortunately the guy at my LFS told me
>> >> that two males would be ok together and while they don't seem to fight
>> >> too much one is definitely the more dominant and chases the other one
>> >> off whenever he sees him. Thay both develpoed what I assumed was white
>> >> spot last week so I started to treat the tank with esha exit as I read
>> >> somewhere this was quite a good gentle medicine to give to a ram and
>> >> the spots are starting to disappear.
>> >>
>> >> The thing is the submissive one does a very strange thing. When we
>> >> first got them the black stripe on his face was very pale, but after a
>> >> while it became very pronounced like the one on his colleague's face.
>> >> However recently it has faded again. Very wierd. In fact I have seen
>> >> it come back momentarily, especially when he flicks his fin up. It's
>> >> like he's blushing. However, the stripe completely disappears when he
>> >> fronts up to other one. Is this a sign of submission on his part?
>> >>
>> >> I'm about to move them all into a much bigger tank (at the moment
>> >> they're in a 17G tank) - will this help or is there even a problem at
>> >> all?
>> >
>> >I've not been able to keep Rams successfully - the longest time period
>being
>> >2-3 months with each in separate tanks. My worst experience as a beginner
>> >was putting 3 in and have two die on me within half an hour of adding
>them -
>> >it was also my first introduction into the routine of checking water
>> >chemistry - I had a slight ammonia spike. The remaining one got moved to
>the
>> >15gall were he did just fine til I messed things up by introducing a
>Betta -
>> >he nearly killed the betta. I then put him back into the Community Tank
>> >which contained another Ram that I had bought a couple of months before -
>> >neither thrived. Like you I saw the aggression between the two and they
>> >actually both died... :-(
>> >
>> >I've done some research since and as much as I would dearly love to try
>> >again I don't think our water parameters really suit them - they prefer
>soft
>> >water with a lower pH. I'm tempted to experiment with the 15gall with
>adding
>> >peat etc. and trying again but am a little shaken after the Clown Loach
>loss
>> >in that tank when using it as QT.
>> >
>> >Take a look at the following links for info on Rams. There are also some
>> >photos showing white areas on the fish which I seem to remember as pretty
>> >normal - is this the sort of thing that you saw or where there definite
>> >sugar grain type spots?
>> >
>> >http://hjem.get2net.dk/Best_of_the_Web/blue%20rams.html
>> >http://badmanstropicalfish.com/profiles/profile3.html
>> >http://www.aquatic-hobbyist.com/profiles/freshwater/cichlids/blueram.html
>> >http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/rams.htm
>> >
>> >There's lots more info available if you do a google on "gold ram fish" -
>> >don't leave the word fish off the end - I did once - it was quite an
>> >education - lol
>> >
>> >Gill
>> >
>> >
>Hi Derek,
>
>Can you please let me know for sure if it was Ich/White Spot...by this I
>mean the sugar/salt grain type of spots....I'm losing fish here and want to
>be certain before shouting....last casualty was one of my gobies
>tonight...plus one rainbow, 3 Neons, 3 Clowns....and I think I have some
>missing guppies....I need to know if I need to close down on additions for a
>while and go with some treatment..we are buying from the same place - I need
>to know...
>
>Thanks
>Gill
>

[Fantastic Derek]

Many thanks to Elaine and yourself. Actually Elaine, you have put my
mind at rest. There are places to hide in my current tank and they
only rarely see each other and aside from the stripe thing (and also
what I am assuming is the white spot that they are recovering from)
they both seem quite happy and active. They are fascinating to watch
when the do see each other. They suddnely come alive and go to butt
each other, stoppoing just a few millimeters from each other.

Pedro, you have 8 in a 58G tank? That's encouraging to me as well as
it's not much bigger than the tank I am moving them into. How many are
males?

I have flakes and frozen daphnia. I have fed them brine shrimp and
baby brine shrimp that I have hatched myself. Do you have any other
reccomendations? I will definitely get some pellets.

On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 00:09:33 GMT, "Pedro"
> wrote:

>I have to agree with Elaine on her comments. I have 8 Bolivian Rams in a 58G
>tank.
>They exhibit great color when they want to breed. Try feeding them a diverse
>diet that includes live food, frozen and pellets.
>They get great black color and an awesome orange coloration in their bottom.
>
>
>
>"Elaine T" > wrote in message
.. .
>> Fantastic Derek wrote:
>>> Hi
>>>
>>> I bought a couple of Rams. Unfortunately the guy at my LFS told me
>>> that two males would be ok together and while they don't seem to fight
>>> too much one is definitely the more dominant and chases the other one
>>> off whenever he sees him. Thay both develpoed what I assumed was white
>>> spot last week so I started to treat the tank with esha exit as I read
>>> somewhere this was quite a good gentle medicine to give to a ram and
>>> the spots are starting to disappear. The thing is the submissive one does
>>> a very strange thing. When we
>>> first got them the black stripe on his face was very pale, but after a
>>> while it became very pronounced like the one on his colleague's face.
>>> However recently it has faded again. Very wierd. In fact I have seen
>>> it come back momentarily, especially when he flicks his fin up. It's
>>> like he's blushing. However, the stripe completely disappears when he
>>> fronts up to other one. Is this a sign of submission on his part?
>>>
>>> I'm about to move them all into a much bigger tank (at the moment
>>> they're in a 17G tank) - will this help or is there even a problem at
>>> all?
>>
>> The color changes are typical cichlid antics. In South Americans
>> including rams, overall vertical striping on a pale background indicates
>> stress. Good color with strong black bars like the one through the ram's
>> eye show a relaxed, healthy fish. The colors intensify when the fish is
>> ready to breed. Your fish's pale stripe is most likely a sign of
>> submission as you suspect.
>>
>> If the male who is lower on the totem pole is able to eat, is not getting
>> his fins nipped, keeps good yellow and blue color without going to pale
>> color and all-over vertical barring, and has somewhere to hide at least
>> part of the time, he will be fine.
>>
>> Moving the fish to a larger tank will definately help because each male
>> will probably set up a territory of his own.
>>
>> --
>> Elaine T __
>> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
>> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com
>

[Andrew]

> Pedro, you have 8 in a 58G tank? That's encouraging
> to me as well as it's not much bigger than the tank I
> am moving them into. How many are males?

The following is purely anecdotal so read into it what you will. I have
7 rams in a 35 gallon. I initially had 2 males and 1 female. While the
fish probably weren't too strong to start with I found the dominant
male badgered the other male until he died. He then turned to harassing
the female with the same result. I decided to try them again and added
6 more (2M:4F) with the expectation of losses. While I feel this was
probably a healthier batch of fish, I haven't lost any of the newer
additions. The original male paired with one of the new females. He
still chases the other rams out of his territory but aggression is
spread across several fish so none of the rams are constantly
harrassed. He also limits chasing to a few inches and doesn't continue
following the offending fish to the other side of the tank as he did
before. Presumably he realises that if he continues chasing a
trespasser one of the others will enter his territory while he's away.
Admittedly the tank is well planted and contains a lot of wood for
refuge areas but they all seem to have established their own areas of
the tank and the original male has become much more tolerant.
Andrew

[Ali Day]

"Andrew" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>> Pedro, you have 8 in a 58G tank? That's encouraging
>> to me as well as it's not much bigger than the tank I
>> am moving them into. How many are males?
>
> The following is purely anecdotal so read into it what you will. I have
> 7 rams in a 35 gallon. I initially had 2 males and 1 female. While the
> fish probably weren't too strong to start with I found the dominant
> male badgered the other male until he died. He then turned to harassing
> the female with the same result. I decided to try them again and added
> 6 more (2M:4F) with the expectation of losses. While I feel this was
> probably a healthier batch of fish, I haven't lost any of the newer
> additions. The original male paired with one of the new females. He
> still chases the other rams out of his territory but aggression is
> spread across several fish so none of the rams are constantly
> harrassed. He also limits chasing to a few inches and doesn't continue
> following the offending fish to the other side of the tank as he did
> before. Presumably he realises that if he continues chasing a
> trespasser one of the others will enter his territory while he's away.
> Admittedly the tank is well planted and contains a lot of wood for
> refuge areas but they all seem to have established their own areas of
> the tank and the original male has become much more tolerant.
> Andrew


I have a couple in my tank at the moment, and was thinking about trying to
add another couple. 170 gals, enough space for territory? At the moment they
go all over the tank, if I were to introduce a new pair wouldn't that cause
problems?