Tank 'O Death

[Glengoyne]

I need to know what is going on....

We have two tanks, and are planning a large upgrade around Christmas.

Tank 1 is a 10 gal and has 2 CL's, 2 Dwarf Rainbows, an Oto and a pleco
(yeah, we have an alge issue, but thats another story)

Tank 2 is a 7ish gal and until yesterday housed the CAE and an assorted
veil angel. We have lost 2 other angels in this tank previously... one
died, then got 2 to replace him. When the first one of the second
batch died, I chalked it up to a power outage we had the night before.
When we had the two together with the CAE, they both acted like moody
little teenagers, and didn't seem to want to eat the food I was giving
them. After the second angel died, the last remaining one seemed to
perk up, he would rush the food and seemed to be happy. Several days
ago he went back into the 'moody teenager' state, and late this
morning, I found him stuck on the heater. I checked nitrates,
nitrites, amonia, ph, etc and everything was fine. The CAE didn't seem
to bother the angel, so I am at a loss as to what could be going on...
Is this just the tank o death, and if so WHY WONT IT KILL THE CAE??

The next question I need to know is what can we put in with the CAE
that will put up with him, and do well with the loaches and rainbows
when we do upgrade.

[Elaine T]

Glengoyne wrote:
> I need to know what is going on....
>
> We have two tanks, and are planning a large upgrade around Christmas.
>
> Tank 1 is a 10 gal and has 2 CL's, 2 Dwarf Rainbows, an Oto and a pleco
> (yeah, we have an alge issue, but thats another story)
>
> Tank 2 is a 7ish gal and until yesterday housed the CAE and an assorted
> veil angel. We have lost 2 other angels in this tank previously... one
> died, then got 2 to replace him. When the first one of the second
> batch died, I chalked it up to a power outage we had the night before.
> When we had the two together with the CAE, they both acted like moody
> little teenagers, and didn't seem to want to eat the food I was giving
> them. After the second angel died, the last remaining one seemed to
> perk up, he would rush the food and seemed to be happy. Several days
> ago he went back into the 'moody teenager' state, and late this
> morning, I found him stuck on the heater. I checked nitrates,
> nitrites, amonia, ph, etc and everything was fine. The CAE didn't seem
> to bother the angel, so I am at a loss as to what could be going on...
> Is this just the tank o death, and if so WHY WONT IT KILL THE CAE??
>
> The next question I need to know is what can we put in with the CAE
> that will put up with him, and do well with the loaches and rainbows
> when we do upgrade.
>
I doubt it's a tank o death. Seven gallons is a terribly small tank for
one angel, let alone two. I consider a 20 tall the absolute minimum for
an angelfish. It can also be rather difficult to find healthy angels
and I bet you're trying to buy tiny ones. For some reason, a lot of the
imported angelfish are extremely fragile, particularly when they're
small. Loss of appetite is a sign of illness, so your "moody teenagers"
were probably sick from the beginning.

It's hard to say what will put up with a CAE as it grows. They have a
reputation for becoming very territorial and aggressive. If it's still
small, it really shouldn't be much of an issue. Small species of barbs,
rasboras, or tetras all have room to live and swim in small tanks and
are compatible with loaches and rainbows.

When you upgrade, you can try an angel again. Buy an angel with a body
at least the size of a silver dollar, watch it eat in the store, and go
for the wild-type striped silver ones because they're often hardier.
Try to buy a fish that has been in the store for at least a week, and
buy out of a tank where every single angel is eating and healthy.

NetMax has a whole angelfish quarantine routine that I'm sure he can
post when you're ready to buy one for the bigger tank.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Glengoyne]

We tried the rasboras back when we started the 10 gal... The CAE seemed
to stress it and the Diamond tetra out. That is why we got the 7 gal
in the first place. The darn CAE is the sole survivor from April when
we started everything. We have since lost the tetra and rasbora. If
he didn't stress out the rainbows, I would dump him back in the 10 gal
and give the small tank back to the friend who gave it to us... by the
way, she could never keep fancy goldfish alive in the tank, hence its
reputation.

I am wondering if a beta would be alright with the CAE. I know
they(betas) tolerate small tanks well, I just don't know how the two
will interact. If we did get a beta, how would he do with the rest of
the 'family'?

[doug]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
m...
> Glengoyne wrote:
>> I need to know what is going on....


> When you upgrade, you can try an angel again. Buy an angel with a body at
> least the size of a silver dollar, watch it eat in the store, and go for
> the wild-type striped silver ones because they're often hardier. Try to
> buy a fish that has been in the store for at least a week, and buy out of
> a tank where every single angel is eating and healthy

> Elaine T __

I agree with what Elaine sez 100% and would add.... Look
at the "forehead" of the angel, it should be thick and rounded.
If the fish is less than healthy it may be "knife edged". Same is
true for Discus.

Doug

[doug]

"Glengoyne" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> We tried the rasboras back when we started the 10 gal... The CAE seemed
> to stress it and the Diamond tetra out. >


The wording of the above seems to indicate that you had 1 rasbora and 1
tetra
If that's true it may be part of the problem.....these are schooling fish
and
do better in groups.

Doug

[lgb]

In article . com>,
says...
> I am wondering if a beta would be alright with the CAE. I know
> they(betas) tolerate small tanks well, I just don't know how the two
> will interact. If we did get a beta, how would he do with the rest of
> the 'family'?
>

I've had 2 CAEs. I eventually killed both of them. After they get
about 3" long, they don't get along with anything! You could put yours
in with an agressive cichlid :-).

As far as the betta, I've got one in a tank with loaches, otos, cory
cats, and a couple of platys. I've only seen two things stress the
betta. A lot of platys (I had 20 fry at one time) made it difficult for
him to eat. A strong current in the tank bugged him. Other than that,
they all get along fine. Of course, I've got lots of live plants for
all of them to find hiding places when they want.

--
BNSF = Build Now, Seep Forever

[Glengoyne]

We went through half a dozen rasboras, and the one that we had was the
only one to survive. The tetra was our daughters wish... back when the
tank was really 'hers'. We got it for her for her birthday, and all
too quickly it became Marge's bowling ball that said 'Homer' on it.
She might have a say in what we get for it when we upgrade, although it
might become the quarantine tank.

[Gill Passman]

Elaine T wrote:
> Glengoyne wrote:
>
>> I need to know what is going on....
>>
>> We have two tanks, and are planning a large upgrade around Christmas.
>>
>> Tank 1 is a 10 gal and has 2 CL's, 2 Dwarf Rainbows, an Oto and a pleco
>> (yeah, we have an alge issue, but thats another story)
>>
>> Tank 2 is a 7ish gal and until yesterday housed the CAE and an assorted
>> veil angel. We have lost 2 other angels in this tank previously... one
>> died, then got 2 to replace him. When the first one of the second
>> batch died, I chalked it up to a power outage we had the night before.
>> When we had the two together with the CAE, they both acted like moody
>> little teenagers, and didn't seem to want to eat the food I was giving
>> them. After the second angel died, the last remaining one seemed to
>> perk up, he would rush the food and seemed to be happy. Several days
>> ago he went back into the 'moody teenager' state, and late this
>> morning, I found him stuck on the heater. I checked nitrates,
>> nitrites, amonia, ph, etc and everything was fine. The CAE didn't seem
>> to bother the angel, so I am at a loss as to what could be going on...
>> Is this just the tank o death, and if so WHY WONT IT KILL THE CAE??
>>
>> The next question I need to know is what can we put in with the CAE
>> that will put up with him, and do well with the loaches and rainbows
>> when we do upgrade.
>>
> I doubt it's a tank o death. Seven gallons is a terribly small tank for
> one angel, let alone two. I consider a 20 tall the absolute minimum for
> an angelfish. It can also be rather difficult to find healthy angels
> and I bet you're trying to buy tiny ones. For some reason, a lot of the
> imported angelfish are extremely fragile, particularly when they're
> small. Loss of appetite is a sign of illness, so your "moody teenagers"
> were probably sick from the beginning.
>
> It's hard to say what will put up with a CAE as it grows. They have a
> reputation for becoming very territorial and aggressive. If it's still
> small, it really shouldn't be much of an issue. Small species of barbs,
> rasboras, or tetras all have room to live and swim in small tanks and
> are compatible with loaches and rainbows.
>
> When you upgrade, you can try an angel again. Buy an angel with a body
> at least the size of a silver dollar, watch it eat in the store, and go
> for the wild-type striped silver ones because they're often hardier. Try
> to buy a fish that has been in the store for at least a week, and buy
> out of a tank where every single angel is eating and healthy.
>
> NetMax has a whole angelfish quarantine routine that I'm sure he can
> post when you're ready to buy one for the bigger tank.
>
I'm with Elaine on this in doubting that it is a "tank 'o death" - your
friend was keeping goldfish which undoubtedly require more space than a
7gall (I presume this is US gall). Equally the Angels are not really
suited to a tank of this size, follow Elaine's advice on future purchases.

In your position I would probably return the CAE to the LFS unless you
are especially attached to it - they get a lot of bad press on this NG
although I have no personal experience of them. I would then look at
stocking the 7 gall tank with small fish - Tetras, Rasporas, Panda Corys
and even a beta (plus compatible companions) - that sort of thing -
try and keep to the one inch per gall rule until you gain in
confidence/experience....a school of tetras would look great in a
planted tank of this size IMO. If you go for the Pandas I would suggest
mixing them with some other smaller fish. For example I have a 7.5 UK
gall planted Hex tank - it's occupants are currently 4 Peacock Gobies
(very difficult to get hold of) and 5 Panda Corys....If I was allowed
another I would probably try filling it with Neons or Rasporas....

When it comes to the 10 gall the fish you currently have will soon
outgrow it. BTW I believe Otos do better in numbers. Again, look at the
type of fish you can keep in it....I have a 15 UK gall tank that is
currently housing two dwarf gouramis - I will be looking to add another
10 smallish fish max....

I would personally avoid the Angels until the accommodation is available
to house them - you are talking later in the year I believe. I would
move the Plec, Rainbows and CL's into this tank as well as they almost
certainly outgrow the 10 gall.

One other thing...if you do decide to restock the 7gall with smaller
fish keep the existing fish in there right up until an hour before your
intended new purchase...try to leave a max of two hours before putting
in your new fish otherwise the bacteria in the filter may die off and
you will end up having to cycle the tank again....

Hope this is helpful

Gill

[A Man]

Some articles I found about lead and fish, especially angel fish.

Lead in aquariums: safe or not?

- http://www.doctoryourself.com/lead.html
This guy says lead killed all his angelfish.

- http://guppyplace.tripod.com/WaterQuality.html
This site says copper, zinc, iron, and lead are bad for fish.

- http://www.netpets.org/fish/reference/thielbook/thielbook5d.html
"Lead does not serve any known function in animal and plant life, and is
extremely toxic to all forms of life kept in reef and other aquariums.
Nowadays lead poisoning is a highly unlikely event, but water supplies, in
old houses with lead pipes, may need to be checked carefully for lead before
that water is used.

Another often overlooked source of lead in the water, are leachings from
painted decorations that are sometimes placed in tanks. Mistrust anything
that is painted, varnished, or otherwise coated, unless you know for sure
which compound was used."



--
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