Absolute Beginners

[FishNoob]

I've never kept fish of any kind unless you count those goldfish I
won at fairgrounds 30 years ago - so please be gentle and tolerant of
my noob ignorance :-)

We want to keep some tropical fish. This is probably what we'll buy:
http://www.aquatics-direct.co.uk/itemsviewer.asp?ID=847 (though not
from that supplier, from a local store). From what I've read, larger
tanks are easier to keep, but this is about as big as we can justify
spending money on. If someone wanted to give me a bigger tank, I'd
cheerfully take it, but since they don't, this is likely what we'll
have.

Availability of stuff (equipment and fish) is limited where I live -
I'm in Northern Ireland, even UK companies often don't ship here, and
there aren't that many pet shops either. I found one (smallis, brand-
new) where the staff seem well-informed though, so fingers crossed.

What we want: pretty, colourful fish which will look good and catch
the eye (and keep the kids' interest). I can't remember the names of
the fish we looked at yesterday, except for the neon tetras and zebra
something (small, black and white). Would like some of those, plus
some other varieties. From what I've read on this ng, will also get a
loach or two (two, 'cause they're schooling, right?) to avoid snails
taking over (yeuch to snails).

I know we need to set up the tank and cycle before adding anything,
then add gradually.

Questions:

Are there any particular fish that people would recommend (for or
against) for us?

Should we *expect* to lose some fish along the way? What do we do
with fish that die - how to dispose of them?

Do we *need* a quarantine tank to use before introducing new fish?

Apart from the equipment that is supplied with that tank kit, and one
of those gravel siphon things, what else do we need?

TIA to all, no doubt I will have more noob questions soon.

--
FishNoob

[Derek W. Benson]

On Sun, 11 Sep 2005 10:35:03 +0100, FishNoob >
wrote:

>What we want: pretty, colourful fish which will look good and catch
>the eye (and keep the kids' interest). I can't remember the names of
>the fish we looked at yesterday, except for the neon tetras and zebra
>something (small, black and white). Would like some of those, plus
>some other varieties. From what I've read on this ng, will also get a
>loach or two (two, 'cause they're schooling, right?) to avoid snails
>taking over (yeuch to snails).
>
>I know we need to set up the tank and cycle before adding anything,
>then add gradually.

What you've written above I say is wrong. What you need to do is set
up the tank with the filter, heater, etc. The next day you add a few
fish and plants. You need the fish in there to produce some ammonia
which gives food to bacteria, and then your tank will start cycling.
If you're thinking of "fishless cycling" which some people describe
and some people can do successfully I advise you to stay away from it.
For rocket scientists only. Zebra danios are the perfect fish to start
out in your tank, I suggest 4 or 5. And some plants.

>Questions:
>
>Are there any particular fish that people would recommend (for or
>against) for us?

A pair of Kribensis maybe? Cichlids are cool, their activity is a bit
different from schooling types of fish, and Kribensis will willingly
breed for you if there aren't any other semi-aggressive species in the
tank. This is extremely interesting for the kids, as these cichlids
will protect their eggs and fry from other fish, herding around the
fry in a group when the fry start swimming around. Pearl Gouramis,
very beautiful fish and one of the peaceful gouramis.

>Should we *expect* to lose some fish along the way? What do we do
>with fish that die - how to dispose of them?

You should probably expect this, but it won't necessarily happen with
any of your first fish. Disposal: If the fish are small enough to fit,
flush them down the toilet. If they're too big after a while, in the
garbage with them. When we were kids we often insisted on burying a
favorite fish outside in the yard, so this is also an option.

>Do we *need* a quarantine tank to use before introducing new fish?

No. (Regardless of what a lot of others will tell you about this.) In
the vast majority of instances the fish you bring home from the store
are not going to inflict Ich or other common illnesses upon your
present fish. This is just my own experience over many years I'm
judging from. The main factor by far as to whether your fish will
contract any of the common illnesses is how you keep your tank. If you
keep your tank clean enough for example.

>Apart from the equipment that is supplied with that tank kit, and one
>of those gravel siphon things, what else do we need?

A water conditioner which removes chlorine, chloramine and binds heavy
metals. A variety of foods. If standard flake food comes with the
tank, also buy vegetable flake food and at least one more type. This
can be freeze dried tubifex worms, or it can be frozen brine shrimp or
frozen blood worms or something else frozen.

-Derek

[Steve]

Derek W. Benson wrote:
> On Sun, 11 Sep 2005 10:35:03 +0100, FishNoob >
> wrote:
>

good posting snipped...

>
> You should probably expect this, but it won't necessarily happen with
> any of your first fish. Disposal: If the fish are small enough to fit,
> flush them down the toilet. If they're too big after a while, in the
> garbage with them. When we were kids we often insisted on burying a
> favorite fish outside in the yard, so this is also an option.
>
>

It's suggested by some, that "flushing" dead fish may spread disease
into local waterways. For this reason, I now put them in the outdoor
composter.

>>Do we *need* a quarantine tank to use before introducing new fish?
>
>
> No. (Regardless of what a lot of others will tell you about this.) In
> the vast majority of instances the fish you bring home from the store
> are not going to inflict Ich or other common illnesses upon your
> present fish. This is just my own experience over many years I'm
> judging from. The main factor by far as to whether your fish will
> contract any of the common illnesses is how you keep your tank. If you
> keep your tank clean enough for example.
>
>

I've also experienced that new introductions rarely introduce/ spread
diseases in my community tank. I'm careful NOT to add the water that the
fish came in. I float the bag of fish 10-15 minutes for temperature to
stabilize. Then I pour the water and fish, from the bag, into a large
fish net placed over an empty bucket. The netted fish go into the
aquarium, and the aquarium store water is discarded.

Good luck!

Steve

[Sue]

Fishless cycling is not difficult but I appreciate that children won't have
the patience required to feed an empty tank for 4 or more weeks so a
controlled cycle with fish will work.
The tank has an eventual capacity to house about a dozen small ( neon or
zebra danio sized) fish but four zebra danios OR two platies will be all you
can have until the cycle is complete.
Set up the tank, use a simple dechlorinator ( aqua+ or stresscoat ) and
check the temperature is stable, the filter works and you are happy with
it's position ;oP

The light supplied will not allow many plants but java ferns or anubias will
be ok and vallis & egeria may grow. Many plants sold for aquaria are not
true aquatics & will die so so avoid any other plants for now.
Plants & fish can be added together .
Now the fun begins - these fish will produce wastes which they will have to
swim in until the bacterial colonies to process the ammonia->
nitrite->nitrate get established (cycling) so you have to do lots of water
changes -20% twice a week or so.

Many fish shops will test water for you as this is the quick way to know how
far along the cycle is & the only way to know for sure when it is safe to
add more fish ( unless you wait two months)

A quarantine tank is not a bad idea - your record 60 will make a great one
when you replace it with a big tank ;o)
HTH
Sue

PS - dead fish are best disposed of in the dustbin.

[Mary Burns]

"Sue" > wrote in message
...
> Fishless cycling is not difficult but I appreciate that children won't
> have the patience required to feed an empty tank for 4 or more weeks so a
> controlled cycle with fish will work.
> The tank has an eventual capacity to house about a dozen small ( neon or
> zebra danio sized) fish but four zebra danios OR two platies will be all
> you can have until the cycle is complete.
> Set up the tank, use a simple dechlorinator ( aqua+ or stresscoat ) and
> check the temperature is stable, the filter works and you are happy with
> it's position ;oP
>
> The light supplied will not allow many plants but java ferns or anubias
> will be ok and vallis & egeria may grow. Many plants sold for aquaria are
> not true aquatics & will die so so avoid any other plants for now.
> Plants & fish can be added together .
> Now the fun begins - these fish will produce wastes which they will have
> to swim in until the bacterial colonies to process the ammonia->
> nitrite->nitrate get established (cycling) so you have to do lots of water
> changes -20% twice a week or so.
>
> Many fish shops will test water for you as this is the quick way to know
> how far along the cycle is & the only way to know for sure when it is safe
> to add more fish ( unless you wait two months)
>
> A quarantine tank is not a bad idea - your record 60 will make a great one
> when you replace it with a big tank ;o)
> HTH
> Sue
>
> PS - dead fish are best disposed of in the dustbin.
>


I have 4 juwel tanks. Can you can afford a rekord 96, about 25 US gallons,
25" of small fish. It was my first tank, and still great. It never has
algae, as powerhead supplied is 600 litre/hour, giving good water movement.
The rekord 60 has 280 l/h powerhead which is slower at 4 times volume. Flows
at 4 times are very peaceful for my angels, but do not give much flow which
encourages algae. I have just increased my vision 260 from 1000l/h to
1500l/h powerhead.Juwel tanks are excellent, cycle holds even when
overstocked with platy fry!!! The lights included are ok, I have just
removed the reflector on rekord 96 and replaced it with foil. At 1 watt per
gallon, easy plants do grow quite well as tank is not too high. The vision
260 has 1.5 watts per gall, but being 24" tall they grow about the same as
rekord 96. If you cycle with platies, don't mix the sexes as they breed
endlessly, my first 3 became 18 as the tank cycled and they all survived,
hence the bigger tanks. Snails are not a problem if you wash the plants and
remove any you find, they tend to be on the internal filter box in a morning
and easy to remove. I didn't know much when I started, and got clown loaches
for the snails. They are adorable and now a group of 10, but need very big
tanks as they can get to 9" to 12" over years. Smaller yo yo or dojo loaches
also eat snails. Amano (algae) shrimp are excellent for eating algae if you
get it, and remain smaller, around 2". It is a good idea to plan your "clean
up crew" first, allow them the relevant inches as cories/loaches can't go in
cycling tanks. The rekord 60 is too small for gouramis as they get to 5 or
6" unless you get the dwarf gouramis. If you cycle with fish, partial water
changes as you test levels are necessary if they get too high, but don't
hoover gravel until cyle has finished. If you get rekord 60, you can
eventually stock with around 15" of fish (adult size) so cycle with no more
than 3" or 4" of fish, adding more slowly when it has cycled, around 4 to 6
weeks in a juwel tank. I have never detected ammonia, but usually nitrite in
second week, staying under 1 and nitrate at end of 2nd week. The internal
filters are excellent during cycling, and even easier with your "next" tank
by swopping a sponge over. Mary

[lgb]

In article >,
says...
> What you've written above I say is wrong. What you need to do is set
> up the tank with the filter, heater, etc. The next day you add a few
> fish and plants. You need the fish in there to produce some ammonia
> which gives food to bacteria, and then your tank will start cycling.
>
If you add the live plants first and give them a couple of weeks to get
well rooted, you may never see any ammonia or nitrites. The plants will
use them up. The tank will still cycle, but the bacteria won't multiply
as fast. But the combination of plants/bacteria works very well.

As far as cost, are there garage sales in Northern Ireland? As I
mentioned here the other day, I just found a 20 gallon long for 2USD.
And it doesn't leak :-). That's exceptional, but a 10 gallon with hood
and all for $5 is not unusual, and I also have a 29 gallon with hood and
stand that sold for $30. Also check the classified ads in your local
paper.

--
BNSF = Build Now, Seep Forever

[FishNoob]

In article >,
says...
> It's suggested by some, that "flushing" dead fish may spread disease
> into local waterways. For this reason, I now put them in the outdoor
> composter.

Really? I didn't know that was possible. We have a composter, so we
can certainly do that.

--
FishNoob

[FishNoob]

In article >,
says...
> A quarantine tank is not a bad idea - your record 60 will make a great one
> when you replace it with a big tank ;o)

I'm almost scared to think just how accurate this might be! LOL

Thanks for your info :-)

--
FishNoob

[FishNoob]

In article >,
says...
> What you've written above I say is wrong. What you need to do is set
> up the tank with the filter, heater, etc. The next day you add a few
> fish and plants. You need the fish in there to produce some ammonia
> which gives food to bacteria, and then your tank will start cycling.
> If you're thinking of "fishless cycling" which some people describe
> and some people can do successfully I advise you to stay away from it.
> For rocket scientists only. Zebra danios are the perfect fish to start
> out in your tank, I suggest 4 or 5. And some plants.

Okay, thanks for this. I think I was getting confused - there's so
much info out there, much of it conflicting. So I'll get the tank up
in the next day or two and then go look at fish (again).

Thanks for your recommendations re what fish to get - they sound
good.

> No. (Regardless of what a lot of others will tell you about this.) In
> the vast majority of instances the fish you bring home from the store
> are not going to inflict Ich or other common illnesses upon your
> present fish.

That's reassuring - thanks :-)

--
FishNoob

[FishNoob]

In article >,=20
says...
> As far as cost, are there garage sales in Northern Ireland? As I=20
> mentioned here the other day, I just found a 20 gallon long for 2USD.
> And it doesn't leak :-). That's exceptional, but a 10 gallon with hood=
=20
> and all for $5 is not unusual, and I also have a 29 gallon with hood and=
=20
> stand that sold for $30. Also check the classified ads in your local=20
> paper.

The foolish people here don't do garage sales ;-). Instead we have=20
car boot sales, where people pay =A35 or so to take a car-full of stuff=20
into a car-park somewhere and sell stuff out of it. They can be=20
places to get bargains, but they're not nearly as good as garage=20
sales (we used to live in Canada and the garage sales were *much*=20
better!)

I've been watching the classifieds for a while - also Freecycle,=20
Craigslist etc - but this doesn't seem to be something that comes up=20
very often :-\
=20
--=20
FishNoob

[FishNoob]

In article >, mary.burns3
@nospam.ntlworld.com says...
> I have 4 juwel tanks. Can you can afford a rekord 96, about 25 US gallons,
> 25" of small fish.

TBH I'm reluctant to spend much when I don't know if this will be an
interest that stays, y'know? So I'm figuring at least with a smaller
tank, if it ends up in the garage, it's been less money wasted.

I bought a tank this afternoon, but I bought a Rena rather than the
one I was looking at before. It's the same size, same stuff included,
but a bit cheaper, from a different store. I'll go back to the first
store for the fish though - they seemed a lot more knowledgeable (and
interested) there.

--
FishNoob

[Logic316]

FishNoob wrote:

> Should we *expect* to lose some fish along the way?

Well, it can happen to the best of us. Murphy's Law seems to dictate
that even if every conceivable factor in an artificial environment is
monitored and controlled, an organism can still go belly-up when it damn
well pleases. But I wouldn't *expect* to lose any fish if it was healthy
when purchased and every step is done properly.


> What do we do
> with fish that die - how to dispose of them?

That depends entirely on your personal beliefs and how attached you are
to them; but from a purely environmental point of view, burying them in
the backyard, putting them in the trash, using them as garden compost,
or just flushing them down the loo are equally acceptable.


> Do we *need* a quarantine tank to use before introducing new fish?

I don't believe so, however you need to make certain that the water
temperature of the bag containing the new fish matches the water
temperature of your aquarium so the fish don't get (possibly lethal)
system shock when you put them in.

Optionally, you can also use a salt dip to help strip off any parasites
that might be on the new fish (do not do this on scaleless fish such as
catfish species which do not tolerate salt well)

Salt dip instructions (courtesy of "Dr. Solo"):

Use 1/2 cup of aquarium salt in a gallon of water (make sure it contains
no chlorine/chloramine and that the temperature is the same as the tank
water)

1. put the fish into the salt water and start timing the dip.
2. the fish will come up to the top, generally on its side, poke the
fish and the fish will dive and swim.
3. when the fish doesn't dive or doesn't dive quickly, take the fish out
and put into the tank.
4. take even a still active fish out after 5 minutes, leaving them in
the salt dip longer will kill them.
5. for SMALL FISH (2 inches or less), when they come up to the top and
start rolling even slightly, they must be removed immediately no matter
what the time limit. This means their gills can't handle it. Even if it
has only been a few seconds.
6. If this procedure makes you too nervous, keep in mind that even a
brief 30 second salt dip can have benefits.


> Apart from the equipment that is supplied with that tank
> kit, and one of those gravel siphon things, what else do
> we need?

A chemical test kit that checks your aquarium and tap water for the
presence of chlorine, chloramine, and ammonia is a basic essential for
every type of aquarist these days. Fish generate ammonia which can reach
toxic levels. And you may also find that your tap water already contains
one or more of the above-mentioned chemicals, in which case you will
need to buy a bottle of chlorine/chloramine neutralizer from the fish
store to purify it.

And don't forget to change 20-30% of the water per week.

Good luck with your new hobby!

- Logic316



"Bureaucracy is a giant mechanism operated by pygmies."
-- Honore de Balzac

[[email protected]]

It looks like you have about a 15 gallon tank. This is very small.
You will have a lot of problem keeping anything except for the most
hardly fish.

1. Don't get neon tetras. You need a school of them and it will get
expensive. Also, they are not hardly. Get them only after you know
what you are doing.

I recommend getting one Golden Gourami. They are not as tough as the
Danios, but they certainly look a lot better. Never get a pair of
them. One of them will kill off the other. Just one. Watch it grow,
it is fun.

2. Yes, fish die

4. You need a water test kit. It has to cover at least ammonium and
nitrate. You need good filtration. That gets expensive but they are
pretty much a one time expense. I use Fluval Plus. They work
underwater and they are really quiet. You need a good heater. I use
Visitherm Stealths. You may need some chemical to dechlorinate your
water. This really depends on your local water supply.

Notes:
1. You don't need to feed your fish multiple times a day. In fact you
don't even need to feed them everyday. They are cold blooded animals
with very low caloric needs. Just because they are eager for food do
not mean they need it. If you have the discipline to feed your feed
every other day, You will have less water quality problems. If you
have kids, it is hard to enforce this feeding rule.

2. Change 25% of the water every week. It is adequate for hardly fish.
Make sure the temperature of the new water is the same as the water it
the tank. Topical fish hates temperature fluctuations. Before your
tank becomes cycled, you may have to change your water daily to keep
your fish alive. This can take up to 2 or 3 weeks. It is a royal pain
in the arse.

3. If you are not keeping plant, reduce lighting in your tank, so that
you don't have an algae problem.

4. Frankly, you may want to reexamine the entire idea of keeping fish.
It is really time consuming to do it right. I would say it is at least
2 hours a week to make your tank beautiful. If that is not an issue
for you it will take about 15 mins a week for the water change, but of
course, your tank will not be pretty.

[Rick]

<> 4. Frankly, you may want to reexamine the entire idea of keeping fish.
> It is really time consuming to do it right. I would say it is at least
> 2 hours a week to make your tank beautiful. If that is not an issue
> for you it will take about 15 mins a week for the water change, but of
> course, your tank will not be pretty.
>
Just what do you do for the other hour and 45mins? I clean, vac, water
change, and mantain filters ect. on 4 tank in that 2hr period. I always get
oohs and aahs when friends come over, so I pretty sure they would be called
beautiful. Lets not scare him too much so he doesn't give up when his kids
lose interest (my daugter did, but my son still has a tank in his room). I'm
sure that once he get the routine down, he will be just fine and like most
of us, won't be able to resist the urge to "upgrade".

[Gill Passman]

Rick wrote:
> <> 4. Frankly, you may want to reexamine the entire idea of keeping fish.
>
>>It is really time consuming to do it right. I would say it is at least
>>2 hours a week to make your tank beautiful. If that is not an issue
>>for you it will take about 15 mins a week for the water change, but of
>>course, your tank will not be pretty.
>>
>
> Just what do you do for the other hour and 45mins? I clean, vac, water
> change, and mantain filters ect. on 4 tank in that 2hr period. I always get
> oohs and aahs when friends come over, so I pretty sure they would be called
> beautiful. Lets not scare him too much so he doesn't give up when his kids
> lose interest (my daugter did, but my son still has a tank in his room). I'm
> sure that once he get the routine down, he will be just fine and like most
> of us, won't be able to resist the urge to "upgrade".
>
>

I have to agree here. It certainly does not take me 2 hours to do the
weekly maintenance on a tank (and I have 6 of them). It might take me 30
mins max to do the larger tanks (maybe a little longer if I haven't kept
on top of scraping the algae of the glass). The smaller tanks take
around 10 - 15 mins a piece (5 gall up to 15gall). Another point to bear
in mind is the fish aren't bothered about the prettiness of the tank -
all that will bother them is the water quality and getting fed.

When first setting up the tank you will need to understand about the
nitrogen cycle (this is what people mean when they refer to cycling
tanks). Check out:-

http://faq.thekrib.com/begin-cycling.html

It is my understanding that doing water changes during the cycling
process will increase the length of time that it will take your "good
bacteria" to colonize the filter/tank.

In terms of fish to add I think some have already suggested Danios as a
good starter fish although I've not used them myself. Platys are also a
possibility. When I first started I cycled two tanks with Gouramis. You
need to be very patient when adding the fish - a few every two weeks
after nitrites\ammonia are down to zero. There are some products on the
market that are supposed to help by adding beneficial bacteria such as
Cycle. If you have a fish-keeping friend adding some filter medium or
substrate from their tank can help with the process as well but don't
look on this as a way of adding more fish quickly - the tank will still
cycle but hopefully will be less stressful for the fish.

Yes, fish do die, but you can minimise the risks (you will never get rid
of them totally). Try and check not just the health of the fish that you
are thinking of buying also look in the other tanks - many LFSs use the
same water across many of their tanks. Certainly don't buy if there are
any dead fish in the tank in question or any sign of disease such as Ich
(White Spot). Once you have them you will need to maintain a good
maintenance routine - including weekly water changes. Also test the
water periodically and always before purchasing fish. Try and match the
fish that you buy to your existing water quality (hardness/pH etc).
BTW I bin mine

If you have got a 15 gall Rena (around 55L) it is most likely the same
as the one that I am currently setting up in the Kitchen at home. I
swapped out the filter for a Fluval Plus 2. The tank is too small for
most Gouramis but Dwarf Gouramis are an option - I have 1M/1F in mine
and have now added some Rummy Nose Tetras.

In terms of starter equipment I would suggest:-

1. Water test kit - ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and pH
2. Gravel Vacuum
3. Algae scraper
4. A water conditioner to remove chlorine, chloramine and heavy metals
5. Possibly something like Cycle
6. Live plants as these will help with water quality.

As you go on with time (and maybe multiple tanks) this list does
increase - you should see the store I've got under some of the tanks - lol

You won't need a QT tank to start with as afterall your new tank is
exactly that. As your investment in fish increases you may well want to
consider it to protect your existing fish. It has to be said though
although I have a QT tank most of the fish (less the store water) go
straight into the tanks.

Happy fishkeeping and let us know if you have any further questions

Gill

[Tynk]

Well fishnoob, get confused some more because this person gave you poor
advice.
I've been in the hobby for nearly 30 now, and I can assure what that
person told you, some of it right, but much was bullcrappy.
Derek W. Benson <,was the poster at the beginning of this thread.
Fishless cycling is easy, not hard. A Monkey could do it, yet Mr.
Benson thinks you need to be a rocket scientist, lol.
Here's an even easier solution. Find a local PetLand. Call them up and
ask if they have any Bio Spira in stock. In needs to stay in the frige
and kept cold, so if ya buy some go right home with it and put it into
the frige. It has live bacteria in it and will fully cycle your tank in
24 hours. That means you can dump in Bio Spira and fully stock your
tank with fish the same day!!
Being new to the hobby you have no idea how wonderful this is.
OH....don't be fooled by the other cycling products out there, such as
Cycle, Stress Zyme, Bio Zyme, etc as they have the WRONG type of
bacteria in them. They do NOT help cycle your tank.
I still don't know how they can legally claim this, unless nobody has
made a complaint yet.
When you use fish to cycle a tank you do harm to them. They suffer
painful burns to the insides of the gills, and often they die from the
stress of it all.
Why anyone would do this when Bio Spira is available is beyond me.

<<No. (Regardless of what a lot of others will tell you about this.) In

> the vast majority of instances the fish you bring home from the store
> are not going to inflict Ich or other common illnesses upon your
> present fish. >>

This is the biggest hunk of bull feces I've heard in a long time.
There are diseases in the fish hobby that ARE common that can wipe out
a fishroom, let alone one tank full of fish.

Do yourself a favor and get a quarantine tank.
All ya need is a little 2 1/2g tank..available at PetSmart for $10.00.
They rectangle in shape and glass. It will come with a glass lid, so if
it's missing from the bottom of the tank, look for another. They are
often missing, so check.
Then just get a small sponge filter and tiny air pump to run it and
possibly a small submersible heater (again Petsmart has good prices on
these as well).
For what, a $30 investment compaired to losing every fish in the house?


I have 3 of these tank lined up inside my 75g's cabinet.
Easy to do, and well worth it.

[Tynk]

<< is my understanding that doing water changes during the cycling
process will increase the length of time that it will take your "good
bacteria" to colonize the filter/tank. >>.

Actually water changed *should* be done during the cycling period. How
else are you going to keep the ammonial levels down?
Besides, the nitrifying bacteria are sticky and stick to the all
surfaces in the tank, hardly any at all are floating freely throught
the water.
The *don't do water changes during the cycling period* is one of those
myths that won't die. Same with the 1" of fish per gallon". It's a
nother myth that won't die.

[Gill Passman]

Tynk wrote:
> << is my understanding that doing water changes during the cycling
> process will increase the length of time that it will take your "good
> bacteria" to colonize the filter/tank. >>.
>
> Actually water changed *should* be done during the cycling period. How
> else are you going to keep the ammonial levels down?
> Besides, the nitrifying bacteria are sticky and stick to the all
> surfaces in the tank, hardly any at all are floating freely throught
> the water.
> The *don't do water changes during the cycling period* is one of those
> myths that won't die. Same with the 1" of fish per gallon". It's a
> nother myth that won't die.
>
Most of the docs I have read on the web suggest doing the water change
once nitrites have converted to nitrates. The whole purpose of cycling
is to populate the tank and filter medium with sufficient bacteria to
cope with the waste produced by the fish load in the tank. A water
change will dilute the ammonia meaning that the bacteria will not
develop in sufficient quantities for the fish load (as there is not
enough ammonia available to feed it basically) - so this means that the
cycling period will increase as the quantity of bacteria to cope with
the actual fish load is being artificially kept down by the water change
diluting the ammonia. This is really the worst part about cycling with
fish - you know that the ammonia/nitrite is toxic but that the only way
to truly deal with it is to have sufficient bacteria to do so.

IMO whatever method is used to initially set up a tank once the fish go
in the tank will still "cycle" as the bacteria needs to increase to cope
with the exact waste load being produced. This is why I always add the
fish very slowly and would do so however I have started the tank - my
current practice is by seeding from one of the other tanks and keeping a
close monitor on ammonia, nitrites and nitrates (an option I presume is
not open to the OP) - if either ammonia or nitrites even start to
register on the test kit I either add an ornament from another tank or
squeeze one of the existing filter sponges into the tank water thus
building up the bacteria to deal with the problem rather than diluting
the toxin - oh and of course I do not continue stocking the tank until
ammonia and nitrites are zero again.

It would be quite interesting to hear other people's thoughts on water
changes during cycling...

Gill

[Derek W. Benson]

On 12 Sep 2005 08:33:18 -0700, "Tynk" > wrote:

>Well fishnoob, get confused some more because this person gave you poor
>advice.
>I've been in the hobby for nearly 30 now, and I can assure what that
>person told you, some of it right, but much was bullcrappy.
>Derek W. Benson <,was the poster at the beginning of this thread.
>Fishless cycling is easy, not hard. A Monkey could do it, yet Mr.
>Benson thinks you need to be a rocket scientist, lol.
>Here's an even easier solution. Find a local PetLand. Call them up and
>ask if they have any Bio Spira in stock. In needs to stay in the frige
>and kept cold, so if ya buy some go right home with it and put it into
>the frige. It has live bacteria in it and will fully cycle your tank in
>24 hours. That means you can dump in Bio Spira and fully stock your
>tank with fish the same day!!
>Being new to the hobby you have no idea how wonderful this is.
>OH....don't be fooled by the other cycling products out there, such as
>Cycle, Stress Zyme, Bio Zyme, etc as they have the WRONG type of
>bacteria in them. They do NOT help cycle your tank.
>I still don't know how they can legally claim this, unless nobody has
>made a complaint yet.
>When you use fish to cycle a tank you do harm to them. They suffer
>painful burns to the insides of the gills, and often they die from the
>stress of it all.
>Why anyone would do this when Bio Spira is available is beyond me.
>
><<No. (Regardless of what a lot of others will tell you about this.) In
>
>> the vast majority of instances the fish you bring home from the store
>> are not going to inflict Ich or other common illnesses upon your
>> present fish. >>
>
>This is the biggest hunk of bull feces I've heard in a long time.
>There are diseases in the fish hobby that ARE common that can wipe out
>a fishroom, let alone one tank full of fish.
>
>Do yourself a favor and get a quarantine tank.
>All ya need is a little 2 1/2g tank..available at PetSmart for $10.00.
>They rectangle in shape and glass. It will come with a glass lid, so if
>it's missing from the bottom of the tank, look for another. They are
>often missing, so check.
>Then just get a small sponge filter and tiny air pump to run it and
>possibly a small submersible heater (again Petsmart has good prices on
>these as well).
>For what, a $30 investment compaired to losing every fish in the house?
>
>
>I have 3 of these tank lined up inside my 75g's cabinet.
>Easy to do, and well worth it.

My ****ing God, talk about bull****. I've been in the hobby 40 years,
and I 've never seen a "cycling fish's" gills burned out by ammonia or
anything else. I can't even recall ever losing any "cycling fish" in
the first week, first two weeks or 4 weeks or whatever. Although I'm
sure it must have happened with a fish or two one time or another.
I've NEVER had all my first fish in a brand new setup die out, wiped
out by ammonia or nitrite or whatever.

Yes you can get Ich or other common diseases into your tank by various
methods. I myself haven't seen Ich in one of my tanks for somewhere
around 8-12 years; I really don't remember how long ago it was, but
something like that. In that instance 1 fish was ill, no other fishes
contracted the illness. I haven't seen fin and tail rot or popeye or
dropsy or other bacterial illnesses on my fish for about 30 years. I
haven't seen a fungus infection of any kind on any of my fish for 30
years. All this lack of common illness in my tanks over many years is
probably because I'm a dumb-ass.

You seem to be convinced that in the majority of cases, that when
anyone purchases some fish at the LFS, that these fish are for a fact
carrying some illness which has a high likelihood of spreading to the
established fish at home. This is a blatant LIE. The vast majority of
fish you find at LFSs aren't carrying infectious illnesses of any
kind. This is easy to see from plain observation and many years of
such observation. If this weren't the case I would have most likely
had these common illnesses in my tanks at home much more frequently.

I'm curious what line of work you're in. Regional Manager for Bio
Spira maybe?

-Derek

[Derek W. Benson]

On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 18:03:37 +0100, Gill Passman
> wrote:

>It would be quite interesting to hear other people's thoughts on water
>changes during cycling...
>
>Gill

My opinion is that the water should be changed on a cycling tank to
dilute out ammonia and nitrites if you're testing for these and
register them at possibly harmful levels. This to protect your current
fish from harm. Use a longer period of time to cycle the tank.

-Derek

[FishNoob]

In article . com>,
says...
> Here's an even easier solution. Find a local PetLand. Call them up and
> ask if they have any Bio Spira in stock. In needs to stay in the frige
> and kept cold, so if ya buy some go right home with it and put it into
> the frige. It has live bacteria in it and will fully cycle your tank in
> 24 hours. That means you can dump in Bio Spira and fully stock your
> tank with fish the same day!!

I'm sure it's wonderful stuff, but as I mentioned in my original
post, I'm in Northern Ireland. From what I can see on UK websites,
Bio Spira is not available in the UK. And I don't believe PetLand
exists in the UK either - certainly not in NI. Nor does PetSmart, and
nor do $10 tanks - the cost of setting up even the smallest extra
tank (including filter etc) would be in the $100 range.

--
FishNoob

[FishNoob]

In article >,
says...
> Just what do you do for the other hour and 45mins? I clean, vac, water
> change, and mantain filters ect. on 4 tank in that 2hr period. I always get
> oohs and aahs when friends come over, so I pretty sure they would be called
> beautiful. Lets not scare him too much so he doesn't give up when his kids
> lose interest (my daugter did, but my son still has a tank in his room). I'm
> sure that once he get the routine down, he will be just fine and like most
> of us, won't be able to resist the urge to "upgrade".

Thanks for the reassurance, Rick. Even if it was going to take two
hours a week, that wouldn't be much of a problem - there are three
children here who are old enough to take responsibility for some of
the maintenance, so between us that would average half an hour a
week. 15 minutes sounds even more do-able ;-)

(BTW I'm a she, but I suspect you might be right on the upgrade
prediction...but let's try to take it slow to start with LOL)

--
FishNoob

[FishNoob]

In article >,
says...
> When first setting up the tank you will need to understand about the
> nitrogen cycle (this is what people mean when they refer to cycling
> tanks). Check out:-
>
> http://faq.thekrib.com/begin-cycling.html

Thanks - that's a useful link. Thanks for the other information too
:-)

--
FishNoob

[Rick]

Reading all the posts on this thread, I wouldn't be at all surprised if our
friend was on his way back to the store to return his new tank. I hope not,
he wouldn't get to know the joy of an established tank. As for water
changes, first let me say I have no where near the experience of some of the
posters here, but I do do water changes on a cycling tank. It is my
understanding that the bacteria live on surfaces such as bio-balls,
bio-wheels, bio-falls, what ever your filter brand has, or cartages in the
filter, ornaments, ect. So water changes don't effect the bacteria grow,
just take out the bad stuff.

Personally when I started my first couple of tanks, I just added a few
feeder goldfish. Feeder goldfish, I believe, are dirty fish and eat and poop
allot, thus making for good cycle fish, and at 20 cents apiece, if you lose
some, its not that big a deal. When you've cycle, slowly add the new fish
you want, and if you don't what to dispose of the feeders, take them back
to the LFS, just remember they will surely be someone's Oscar food. Not to
be cold hearted, but that's what they are in the store for.

Please, FishNoob, don't give up' it's really not hard to get going. Just
know that as with any hobby, you can't start out on top. After all, it's the
learning and watching your hard work (I know I said it's not that hard, but
you must keep at it) pay off, that make this a fun and exciting hobby IMHO.

If I'm way off here, I'm sure I'll here about it :)


"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
.. .
> Tynk wrote:
>> << is my understanding that doing water changes during the cycling
>> process will increase the length of time that it will take your "good
>> bacteria" to colonize the filter/tank. >>.
>>
>> Actually water changed *should* be done during the cycling period. How
>> else are you going to keep the ammonial levels down?
>> Besides, the nitrifying bacteria are sticky and stick to the all
>> surfaces in the tank, hardly any at all are floating freely throught
>> the water.
>> The *don't do water changes during the cycling period* is one of those
>> myths that won't die. Same with the 1" of fish per gallon". It's a
>> nother myth that won't die.
>>
> Most of the docs I have read on the web suggest doing the water change
> once nitrites have converted to nitrates. The whole purpose of cycling is
> to populate the tank and filter medium with sufficient bacteria to cope
> with the waste produced by the fish load in the tank. A water change will
> dilute the ammonia meaning that the bacteria will not develop in
> sufficient quantities for the fish load (as there is not enough ammonia
> available to feed it basically) - so this means that the cycling period
> will increase as the quantity of bacteria to cope with the actual fish
> load is being artificially kept down by the water change diluting the
> ammonia. This is really the worst part about cycling with fish - you know
> that the ammonia/nitrite is toxic but that the only way to truly deal with
> it is to have sufficient bacteria to do so.
>
> IMO whatever method is used to initially set up a tank once the fish go in
> the tank will still "cycle" as the bacteria needs to increase to cope with
> the exact waste load being produced. This is why I always add the fish
> very slowly and would do so however I have started the tank - my current
> practice is by seeding from one of the other tanks and keeping a close
> monitor on ammonia, nitrites and nitrates (an option I presume is not open
> to the OP) - if either ammonia or nitrites even start to register on the
> test kit I either add an ornament from another tank or squeeze one of the
> existing filter sponges into the tank water thus building up the bacteria
> to deal with the problem rather than diluting the toxin - oh and of course
> I do not continue stocking the tank until ammonia and nitrites are zero
> again.
>
> It would be quite interesting to hear other people's thoughts on water
> changes during cycling...
>
> Gill

[Rick]

"FishNoob" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> says...
>> Just what do you do for the other hour and 45mins? I clean, vac, water
>> change, and mantain filters ect. on 4 tank in that 2hr period. I always
>> get
>> oohs and aahs when friends come over, so I pretty sure they would be
>> called
>> beautiful. Lets not scare him too much so he doesn't give up when his
>> kids
>> lose interest (my daugter did, but my son still has a tank in his room).
>> I'm
>> sure that once he get the routine down, he will be just fine and like
>> most
>> of us, won't be able to resist the urge to "upgrade".
>
> Thanks for the reassurance, Rick. Even if it was going to take two
> hours a week, that wouldn't be much of a problem - there are three
> children here who are old enough to take responsibility for some of
> the maintenance, so between us that would average half an hour a
> week. 15 minutes sounds even more do-able ;-)
>
> (BTW I'm a she, but I suspect you might be right on the upgrade
> prediction...but let's try to take it slow to start with LOL)
>
> --
> FishNoob
Sorry about the gender mix up. I just made the same mistake on a post I
just sent, but I'm sure you'll see it soon. sorry

[Gill Passman]

Rick wrote:
> Reading all the posts on this thread, I wouldn't be at all surprised if our
> friend was on his way back to the store to return his new tank. I hope not,
> he wouldn't get to know the joy of an established tank. As for water
> changes, first let me say I have no where near the experience of some of the
> posters here, but I do do water changes on a cycling tank. It is my
> understanding that the bacteria live on surfaces such as bio-balls,
> bio-wheels, bio-falls, what ever your filter brand has, or cartages in the
> filter, ornaments, ect. So water changes don't effect the bacteria grow,
> just take out the bad stuff.
>
> Personally when I started my first couple of tanks, I just added a few
> feeder goldfish. Feeder goldfish, I believe, are dirty fish and eat and poop
> allot, thus making for good cycle fish, and at 20 cents apiece, if you lose
> some, its not that big a deal. When you've cycle, slowly add the new fish
> you want, and if you don't what to dispose of the feeders, take them back
> to the LFS, just remember they will surely be someone's Oscar food. Not to
> be cold hearted, but that's what they are in the store for.
>
> Please, FishNoob, don't give up' it's really not hard to get going. Just
> know that as with any hobby, you can't start out on top. After all, it's the
> learning and watching your hard work (I know I said it's not that hard, but
> you must keep at it) pay off, that make this a fun and exciting hobby IMHO.
>
> If I'm way off here, I'm sure I'll here about it :)
>
>
> "Gill Passman" > wrote in message
> .. .
>
>>Tynk wrote:
>>
>>><< is my understanding that doing water changes during the cycling
>>>process will increase the length of time that it will take your "good
>>>bacteria" to colonize the filter/tank. >>.
>>>
>>>Actually water changed *should* be done during the cycling period. How
>>>else are you going to keep the ammonial levels down?
>>>Besides, the nitrifying bacteria are sticky and stick to the all
>>>surfaces in the tank, hardly any at all are floating freely throught
>>>the water.
>>>The *don't do water changes during the cycling period* is one of those
>>>myths that won't die. Same with the 1" of fish per gallon". It's a
>>>nother myth that won't die.
>>>
>>
>>Most of the docs I have read on the web suggest doing the water change
>>once nitrites have converted to nitrates. The whole purpose of cycling is
>>to populate the tank and filter medium with sufficient bacteria to cope
>>with the waste produced by the fish load in the tank. A water change will
>>dilute the ammonia meaning that the bacteria will not develop in
>>sufficient quantities for the fish load (as there is not enough ammonia
>>available to feed it basically) - so this means that the cycling period
>>will increase as the quantity of bacteria to cope with the actual fish
>>load is being artificially kept down by the water change diluting the
>>ammonia. This is really the worst part about cycling with fish - you know
>>that the ammonia/nitrite is toxic but that the only way to truly deal with
>>it is to have sufficient bacteria to do so.
>>
>>IMO whatever method is used to initially set up a tank once the fish go in
>>the tank will still "cycle" as the bacteria needs to increase to cope with
>>the exact waste load being produced. This is why I always add the fish
>>very slowly and would do so however I have started the tank - my current
>>practice is by seeding from one of the other tanks and keeping a close
>>monitor on ammonia, nitrites and nitrates (an option I presume is not open
>>to the OP) - if either ammonia or nitrites even start to register on the
>>test kit I either add an ornament from another tank or squeeze one of the
>>existing filter sponges into the tank water thus building up the bacteria
>>to deal with the problem rather than diluting the toxin - oh and of course
>>I do not continue stocking the tank until ammonia and nitrites are zero
>>again.
>>
>>It would be quite interesting to hear other people's thoughts on water
>>changes during cycling...
>>
>>Gill
>
>
>
You are absolutely correct in your understanding that the bacteria lives
on the filter, ornaments etc - not physically in the water as such
(although maybe some do). My point is not that the water change will
deplete the bacteria (afterall I do weekly changes on all of my
established tanks - as do many others without worrying that I am killing
off my bacteria) but that the water change will deplete the waste for
the bacteria to process meaning that insufficient bacteria will develop
to deal with the true load of the tank - or will take much longer - in
fact I know someone who did do water changes during cycling and it took
months for their tanks to cycle properly.

That aside, I appreciate (and also am concerned) by the dilemma that
faces someone who cares for animals in cycling using fish. I've not had
any casualties doing it and in fact some of my longest owned fish were
the ones used for cycling the original tanks....but I don't use this
method anymore as I have sufficient cycled tanks to import bacteria.
Additionally, this is often the only option for those beginning the
hobby (and yes I can hear the arguements for fishless cycling - but
would still maintain that the bacteria cultivated this way will not be
able to cope with a heavy fish load immediately - there will still be a
degree of cycling to contend with). Gradual fish additions IMO is the
way to go so that the toxins in the water are kept very much to the
minimum - I guess if any of my tanks had gone above 0.6 ammonia or 0.1
nitrite I might feel a little differently and to be quite honest I would
do the water change to save the fish and tell myself off severley for
adding too many fish too soon. In fact, whatever method is used I feel
the key is the patience in adding the fish and it also gives time to
research your next additions - the trips to the LFS to umm and ahhh and
then the dive onto google to make sure they will fit in are part of the
fun IMO...

I also hope that FishNoob is not put off by all the debates within this
posting - but actually it is what makes this a great NG :-)

Gill

[Gill Passman]

FishNoob wrote:
> In article >,
> says...
>
>>Just what do you do for the other hour and 45mins? I clean, vac, water
>>change, and mantain filters ect. on 4 tank in that 2hr period. I always get
>>oohs and aahs when friends come over, so I pretty sure they would be called
>>beautiful. Lets not scare him too much so he doesn't give up when his kids
>>lose interest (my daugter did, but my son still has a tank in his room). I'm
>>sure that once he get the routine down, he will be just fine and like most
>>of us, won't be able to resist the urge to "upgrade".
>
>
> Thanks for the reassurance, Rick. Even if it was going to take two
> hours a week, that wouldn't be much of a problem - there are three
> children here who are old enough to take responsibility for some of
> the maintenance, so between us that would average half an hour a
> week. 15 minutes sounds even more do-able ;-)
>
> (BTW I'm a she, but I suspect you might be right on the upgrade
> prediction...but let's try to take it slow to start with LOL)
>
BTW I'd be rich if I had a pound for everytime I get mistaken for a he
on these fishy NGs - LOL

Gill

[Rick]

"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
.. .
> Rick wrote:
>> Reading all the posts on this thread, I wouldn't be at all surprised if
>> our friend was on his way back to the store to return his new tank. I
>> hope not, he wouldn't get to know the joy of an established tank. As for
>> water changes, first let me say I have no where near the experience of
>> some of the posters here, but I do do water changes on a cycling tank. It
>> is my understanding that the bacteria live on surfaces such as bio-balls,
>> bio-wheels, bio-falls, what ever your filter brand has, or cartages in
>> the filter, ornaments, ect. So water changes don't effect the bacteria
>> grow, just take out the bad stuff.
>>
>> Personally when I started my first couple of tanks, I just added a few
>> feeder goldfish. Feeder goldfish, I believe, are dirty fish and eat and
>> poop allot, thus making for good cycle fish, and at 20 cents apiece, if
>> you lose some, its not that big a deal. When you've cycle, slowly add the
>> new fish you want, and if you don't what to dispose of the feeders, take
>> them back to the LFS, just remember they will surely be someone's Oscar
>> food. Not to be cold hearted, but that's what they are in the store for.
>>
>> Please, FishNoob, don't give up' it's really not hard to get going. Just
>> know that as with any hobby, you can't start out on top. After all, it's
>> the learning and watching your hard work (I know I said it's not that
>> hard, but you must keep at it) pay off, that make this a fun and exciting
>> hobby IMHO.
>>
>> If I'm way off here, I'm sure I'll here about it :)
>>
>>
>> "Gill Passman" > wrote in message
>> .. .
>>
>>>Tynk wrote:
>>>
>>>><< is my understanding that doing water changes during the cycling
>>>>process will increase the length of time that it will take your "good
>>>>bacteria" to colonize the filter/tank. >>.
>>>>
>>>>Actually water changed *should* be done during the cycling period. How
>>>>else are you going to keep the ammonial levels down?
>>>>Besides, the nitrifying bacteria are sticky and stick to the all
>>>>surfaces in the tank, hardly any at all are floating freely throught
>>>>the water.
>>>>The *don't do water changes during the cycling period* is one of those
>>>>myths that won't die. Same with the 1" of fish per gallon". It's a
>>>>nother myth that won't die.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Most of the docs I have read on the web suggest doing the water change
>>>once nitrites have converted to nitrates. The whole purpose of cycling is
>>>to populate the tank and filter medium with sufficient bacteria to cope
>>>with the waste produced by the fish load in the tank. A water change will
>>>dilute the ammonia meaning that the bacteria will not develop in
>>>sufficient quantities for the fish load (as there is not enough ammonia
>>>available to feed it basically) - so this means that the cycling period
>>>will increase as the quantity of bacteria to cope with the actual fish
>>>load is being artificially kept down by the water change diluting the
>>>ammonia. This is really the worst part about cycling with fish - you know
>>>that the ammonia/nitrite is toxic but that the only way to truly deal
>>>with it is to have sufficient bacteria to do so.
>>>
>>>IMO whatever method is used to initially set up a tank once the fish go
>>>in the tank will still "cycle" as the bacteria needs to increase to cope
>>>with the exact waste load being produced. This is why I always add the
>>>fish very slowly and would do so however I have started the tank - my
>>>current practice is by seeding from one of the other tanks and keeping a
>>>close monitor on ammonia, nitrites and nitrates (an option I presume is
>>>not open to the OP) - if either ammonia or nitrites even start to
>>>register on the test kit I either add an ornament from another tank or
>>>squeeze one of the existing filter sponges into the tank water thus
>>>building up the bacteria to deal with the problem rather than diluting
>>>the toxin - oh and of course I do not continue stocking the tank until
>>>ammonia and nitrites are zero again.
>>>
>>>It would be quite interesting to hear other people's thoughts on water
>>>changes during cycling...
>>>
>>>Gill
>>
>>
>>
> You are absolutely correct in your understanding that the bacteria lives
> on the filter, ornaments etc - not physically in the water as such
> (although maybe some do). My point is not that the water change will
> deplete the bacteria (afterall I do weekly changes on all of my
> established tanks - as do many others without worrying that I am killing
> off my bacteria) but that the water change will deplete the waste for the
> bacteria to process meaning that insufficient bacteria will develop to
> deal with the true load of the tank - or will take much longer - in fact I
> know someone who did do water changes during cycling and it took months
> for their tanks to cycle properly.
>
> That aside, I appreciate (and also am concerned) by the dilemma that faces
> someone who cares for animals in cycling using fish. I've not had any
> casualties doing it and in fact some of my longest owned fish were the
> ones used for cycling the original tanks....but I don't use this method
> anymore as I have sufficient cycled tanks to import bacteria.
> Additionally, this is often the only option for those beginning the hobby
> (and yes I can hear the arguements for fishless cycling - but would still
> maintain that the bacteria cultivated this way will not be able to cope
> with a heavy fish load immediately - there will still be a degree of
> cycling to contend with). Gradual fish additions IMO is the way to go so
> that the toxins in the water are kept very much to the minimum - I guess
> if any of my tanks had gone above 0.6 ammonia or 0.1 nitrite I might feel
> a little differently and to be quite honest I would do the water change to
> save the fish and tell myself off severley for adding too many fish too
> soon. In fact, whatever method is used I feel the key is the patience in
> adding the fish and it also gives time to research your next additions -
> the trips to the LFS to umm and ahhh and then the dive onto google to make
> sure they will fit in are part of the fun IMO...
>
> I also hope that FishNoob is not put off by all the debates within this
> posting - but actually it is what makes this a great NG :-)
>
> Gill
>
>
>
Point well taken, but the bottom line here is patience. I think we all
agree that an established tank could take weeks or months no matter what
aproach you take. Like they say, good things come to those who wait.

[Elaine T]

Derek W. Benson wrote:
> On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 18:03:37 +0100, Gill Passman
> > wrote:
>
>
>>It would be quite interesting to hear other people's thoughts on water
>>changes during cycling...
>>
>>Gill
>
>
> My opinion is that the water should be changed on a cycling tank to
> dilute out ammonia and nitrites if you're testing for these and
> register them at possibly harmful levels. This to protect your current
> fish from harm. Use a longer period of time to cycle the tank.
>
> -Derek

I agree. I treat ammonia during the cycle with AmQuel and generally
change water during a cycle if nitrite reaches 0.7 or 0.8 ppm. It
really doesn't take much ammonia or nitrite to grow bacteria. I've even
cycled tanks with sensitive fish like cardinal tetras, stocked at one
fish per 5 gallons of water. The cycle took two months, but I was in no
hurry.

Note that some folks have had problems using AmQuel during a cycle. I
have very high pH tapwater (8.0 some days) so I have a very small margin
of error with ammonia.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[IDzine01]

It takes me about 2 - 2.5 hrs/week to do my 6 tanks. (That includes
water testing, cleaning and feeding that day)

I'd say that one tank would take about 40 minutes.

[IDzine01]

>Reading all the posts on this thread, I wouldn't be at all surprised if our
>friend was on his way back to the store to return his new tank. I hope not,
>he wouldn't get to know the joy of an established tank.

Everyone's got an opinion in this hobby. The debates are part of what
makes it fun. I agree completely though, it would be a shame to
discourage FishNoob.

[Gill Passman]

Rick wrote:
> "Gill Passman" > wrote in message
> .. .
>
>>Rick wrote:
>>
>>>Reading all the posts on this thread, I wouldn't be at all surprised if
>>>our friend was on his way back to the store to return his new tank. I
>>>hope not, he wouldn't get to know the joy of an established tank. As for
>>>water changes, first let me say I have no where near the experience of
>>>some of the posters here, but I do do water changes on a cycling tank. It
>>>is my understanding that the bacteria live on surfaces such as bio-balls,
>>>bio-wheels, bio-falls, what ever your filter brand has, or cartages in
>>>the filter, ornaments, ect. So water changes don't effect the bacteria
>>>grow, just take out the bad stuff.
>>>
>>>Personally when I started my first couple of tanks, I just added a few
>>>feeder goldfish. Feeder goldfish, I believe, are dirty fish and eat and
>>>poop allot, thus making for good cycle fish, and at 20 cents apiece, if
>>>you lose some, its not that big a deal. When you've cycle, slowly add the
>>>new fish you want, and if you don't what to dispose of the feeders, take
>>>them back to the LFS, just remember they will surely be someone's Oscar
>>>food. Not to be cold hearted, but that's what they are in the store for.
>>>
>>>Please, FishNoob, don't give up' it's really not hard to get going. Just
>>>know that as with any hobby, you can't start out on top. After all, it's
>>>the learning and watching your hard work (I know I said it's not that
>>>hard, but you must keep at it) pay off, that make this a fun and exciting
>>>hobby IMHO.
>>>
>>>If I'm way off here, I'm sure I'll here about it :)
>>>
>>>
>>>"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
.. .
>>>
>>>
>>>>Tynk wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>><< is my understanding that doing water changes during the cycling
>>>>>process will increase the length of time that it will take your "good
>>>>>bacteria" to colonize the filter/tank. >>.
>>>>>
>>>>>Actually water changed *should* be done during the cycling period. How
>>>>>else are you going to keep the ammonial levels down?
>>>>>Besides, the nitrifying bacteria are sticky and stick to the all
>>>>>surfaces in the tank, hardly any at all are floating freely throught
>>>>>the water.
>>>>>The *don't do water changes during the cycling period* is one of those
>>>>>myths that won't die. Same with the 1" of fish per gallon". It's a
>>>>>nother myth that won't die.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Most of the docs I have read on the web suggest doing the water change
>>>>once nitrites have converted to nitrates. The whole purpose of cycling is
>>>>to populate the tank and filter medium with sufficient bacteria to cope
>>>>with the waste produced by the fish load in the tank. A water change will
>>>>dilute the ammonia meaning that the bacteria will not develop in
>>>>sufficient quantities for the fish load (as there is not enough ammonia
>>>>available to feed it basically) - so this means that the cycling period
>>>>will increase as the quantity of bacteria to cope with the actual fish
>>>>load is being artificially kept down by the water change diluting the
>>>>ammonia. This is really the worst part about cycling with fish - you know
>>>>that the ammonia/nitrite is toxic but that the only way to truly deal
>>>>with it is to have sufficient bacteria to do so.
>>>>
>>>>IMO whatever method is used to initially set up a tank once the fish go
>>>>in the tank will still "cycle" as the bacteria needs to increase to cope
>>>>with the exact waste load being produced. This is why I always add the
>>>>fish very slowly and would do so however I have started the tank - my
>>>>current practice is by seeding from one of the other tanks and keeping a
>>>>close monitor on ammonia, nitrites and nitrates (an option I presume is
>>>>not open to the OP) - if either ammonia or nitrites even start to
>>>>register on the test kit I either add an ornament from another tank or
>>>>squeeze one of the existing filter sponges into the tank water thus
>>>>building up the bacteria to deal with the problem rather than diluting
>>>>the toxin - oh and of course I do not continue stocking the tank until
>>>>ammonia and nitrites are zero again.
>>>>
>>>>It would be quite interesting to hear other people's thoughts on water
>>>>changes during cycling...
>>>>
>>>>Gill
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>You are absolutely correct in your understanding that the bacteria lives
>>on the filter, ornaments etc - not physically in the water as such
>>(although maybe some do). My point is not that the water change will
>>deplete the bacteria (afterall I do weekly changes on all of my
>>established tanks - as do many others without worrying that I am killing
>>off my bacteria) but that the water change will deplete the waste for the
>>bacteria to process meaning that insufficient bacteria will develop to
>>deal with the true load of the tank - or will take much longer - in fact I
>>know someone who did do water changes during cycling and it took months
>>for their tanks to cycle properly.
>>
>>That aside, I appreciate (and also am concerned) by the dilemma that faces
>>someone who cares for animals in cycling using fish. I've not had any
>>casualties doing it and in fact some of my longest owned fish were the
>>ones used for cycling the original tanks....but I don't use this method
>>anymore as I have sufficient cycled tanks to import bacteria.
>>Additionally, this is often the only option for those beginning the hobby
>>(and yes I can hear the arguements for fishless cycling - but would still
>>maintain that the bacteria cultivated this way will not be able to cope
>>with a heavy fish load immediately - there will still be a degree of
>>cycling to contend with). Gradual fish additions IMO is the way to go so
>>that the toxins in the water are kept very much to the minimum - I guess
>>if any of my tanks had gone above 0.6 ammonia or 0.1 nitrite I might feel
>>a little differently and to be quite honest I would do the water change to
>>save the fish and tell myself off severley for adding too many fish too
>>soon. In fact, whatever method is used I feel the key is the patience in
>>adding the fish and it also gives time to research your next additions -
>>the trips to the LFS to umm and ahhh and then the dive onto google to make
>>sure they will fit in are part of the fun IMO...
>>
>>I also hope that FishNoob is not put off by all the debates within this
>>posting - but actually it is what makes this a great NG :-)
>>
>>Gill
>>
>>
>>
>
> Point well taken, but the bottom line here is patience. I think we all
> agree that an established tank could take weeks or months no matter what
> aproach you take. Like they say, good things come to those who wait.
>
>
Oh yes, I totally agree....patience is the key and there is no quick fix
or solution to this if you want to be successful in the world of fish
keeping....impatience leads to disaster however you cycle...if you add
fish slowly it is going to take months anyway...but far better that than
unnecessary deaths and suffering

Gill

[Gill Passman]

Elaine T wrote:
> Derek W. Benson wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 18:03:37 +0100, Gill Passman
>> > wrote:
>>
>>
>>> It would be quite interesting to hear other people's thoughts on
>>> water changes during cycling...
>>>
>>> Gill
>>
>>
>>
>> My opinion is that the water should be changed on a cycling tank to
>> dilute out ammonia and nitrites if you're testing for these and
>> register them at possibly harmful levels. This to protect your current
>> fish from harm. Use a longer period of time to cycle the tank.
>>
>> -Derek
>
>
> I agree. I treat ammonia during the cycle with AmQuel and generally
> change water during a cycle if nitrite reaches 0.7 or 0.8 ppm. It
> really doesn't take much ammonia or nitrite to grow bacteria. I've even
> cycled tanks with sensitive fish like cardinal tetras, stocked at one
> fish per 5 gallons of water. The cycle took two months, but I was in no
> hurry.
>
> Note that some folks have had problems using AmQuel during a cycle. I
> have very high pH tapwater (8.0 some days) so I have a very small margin
> of error with ammonia.
>
I think maybe the question here is whether water changes should be done
as a matter of course during cycling? at which point I would probably
say no as the bacteria needs to develop. If the levels of ammonia and
nitrite reach dangerous levels that is an entirely different situation
and a water change must be done to protect the fish, which is why it is
so important to keep a close check on these - I do it daily on new tanks
(seeded now). Two months is probably the period I would look at (if not
more depending on the size of the tank) but this would be because the
eventual fish load would take me at least 2 months to introduce without
putting the existing fish at any greater risk than adding them to a new
tank and environment already does.....I would never consider adding a
full load of fish to a newly set up tank however I had cycled it....

Patience is the key plus an understanding of how the whole thing works....

Gill

[Tedd Jacobs]

"FishNoob" wrote...
> I've never kept fish of any kind unless you count those goldfish I
> won at fairgrounds 30 years ago - so please be gentle and tolerant of
> my noob ignorance :-)
>
> We want to keep some tropical fish. This is probably what we'll buy:
> http://www.aquatics-direct.co.uk/itemsviewer.asp?ID=847 (though not
> from that supplier, from a local store). From what I've read, larger
> tanks are easier to keep, but this is about as big as we can justify
> spending money on. If someone wanted to give me a bigger tank, I'd
> cheerfully take it, but since they don't, this is likely what we'll
> have.
>
> Availability of stuff (equipment and fish) is limited where I live -
> I'm in Northern Ireland, even UK companies often don't ship here, and
> there aren't that many pet shops either. I found one (smallis, brand-
> new) where the staff seem well-informed though, so fingers crossed.
>
> What we want: pretty, colourful fish which will look good and catch
> the eye (and keep the kids' interest). I can't remember the names of
> the fish we looked at yesterday, except for the neon tetras and zebra
> something (small, black and white). Would like some of those, plus
> some other varieties. From what I've read on this ng, will also get a
> loach or two (two, 'cause they're schooling, right?) to avoid snails
> taking over (yeuch to snails).
>
> I know we need to set up the tank and cycle before adding anything,
> then add gradually.
>
> Questions:
>
> Are there any particular fish that people would recommend (for or
> against) for us?

my personal preference is tiger barbs. barbs are a good starter fish when
it comes to hardiness and they exhibit a great deal of personality and
activity. however, they can be quite hard on other fish and can be a
problem finding tank mates for.


>
> Should we *expect* to lose some fish along the way? What do we do
> with fish that die - how to dispose of them?

absolutly. expect to lose every one, that way you'll be rewarded and
pleased by everyone that does survive. as for disposal there are a number
of ways, i bury mine in the garden. others here will have different
methods.

>
> Do we *need* a quarantine tank to use before introducing new fish?

i wouldnt say you necessarily *need* a QT being as this is your first tank
and this will be the first stocking, but from here on out it is *highly*
recomended. i just purchased some new fish from the local fish store, three
came down with ick. fortunatly i had them in a QT and when the first spots
appeared and i was able to additionally remove them by setting up a second
QT tank to aid in containing the outbreak. if i had introduced them into
their respective tanks from the start the whole populations in both
established tanks would have been at risk. further, because i was able to
remove them to a second QT tank it spared much distress on the rest of the
purchased fish.

>
> Apart from the equipment that is supplied with that tank kit, and one
> of those gravel siphon things, what else do we need?

i didnt look at the tank kit, 'though there are others here that will and
will comment on this one for you. sorry.

>
> TIA to all, no doubt I will have more noob questions soon.

welcome to the hobby, and allow me to commend you on the thoughtful way in
which you have approached it. your fish will thank you.

tedd.

--

[IDzine01]

not to get off the subject but...
Gill, I never knew you were female. I didn't know TYNK was either for
the longest time.

-Christie

[Gill Passman]

IDzine01 wrote:
> not to get off the subject but...
> Gill, I never knew you were female. I didn't know TYNK was either for
> the longest time.
>
> -Christie
>
But you are as well aren't you I think...maybe us girls should just come
out - lol

[Steve]

Tedd Jacobs wrote:
> "FishNoob" wrote...
>

>
> my personal preference is tiger barbs. barbs are a good starter fish when
> it comes to hardiness and they exhibit a great deal of personality and
> activity. however, they can be quite hard on other fish and can be a
> problem finding tank mates for.
>
>
Caution on the tiger barbs. My brother had great success with them in
his community tank long ago; however I took mine back to the store. A
few years ago, I introduced a school of at least 6 tiger barbs (might
have ben a full dozen) into my peaceful, 90 gal planted community
aquarium. My large rainbowfishes' fins soon began to look frayed, so the
tiger barbs went back, to be replaced by harlequin rasboras.

I have had sucess with, and can recommend, both cherry barbs and rosy
barbs. Of course, if you wanted to keep ONLY tiger barbs, tha would make
a very colourful, active 15-20 gallon aquarium!
Steve

[Tynk]

Derek W. Benson Sep 12, 12:38 pm show options

Newsgroups: rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc
From: Derek W. Benson > - Find messages by this author

Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 19:38:21 +0200
Local: Mon, Sep 12 2005 12:38 pm
Subject: Re: Absolute Beginners
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On 12 Sep 2005 08:33:18 -0700, "Tynk" > wrote:




- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

>Well fishnoob, get confused some more because this person gave you poor
>advice.
>I've been in the hobby for nearly 30 now, and I can assure what that
>person told you, some of it right, but much was bullcrappy.
>Derek W. Benson <,was the poster at the beginning of this thread.
>Fishless cycling is easy, not hard. A Monkey could do it, yet Mr.
>Benson thinks you need to be a rocket scientist, lol.
>Here's an even easier solution. Find a local PetLand. Call them up and
>ask if they have any Bio Spira in stock. In needs to stay in the frige
>and kept cold, so if ya buy some go right home with it and put it into
>the frige. It has live bacteria in it and will fully cycle your tank in
>24 hours. That means you can dump in Bio Spira and fully stock your
>tank with fish the same day!!
>Being new to the hobby you have no idea how wonderful this is.
>OH....don't be fooled by the other cycling products out there, such as
>Cycle, Stress Zyme, Bio Zyme, etc as they have the WRONG type of
>bacteria in them. They do NOT help cycle your tank.
>I still don't know how they can legally claim this, unless nobody has
>made a complaint yet.
>When you use fish to cycle a tank you do harm to them. They suffer
>painful burns to the insides of the gills, and often they die from the
>stress of it all.
>Why anyone would do this when Bio Spira is available is beyond me.

><<No. (Regardless of what a lot of others will tell you about this.) In


>> the vast majority of instances the fish you bring home from the store
>> are not going to inflict Ich or other common illnesses upon your
>> present fish. >>


>This is the biggest hunk of bull feces I've heard in a long time.
>There are diseases in the fish hobby that ARE common that can wipe out
>a fishroom, let alone one tank full of fish.


>Do yourself a favor and get a quarantine tank.
>All ya need is a little 2 1/2g tank..available at PetSmart for $10.00.
>They rectangle in shape and glass. It will come with a glass lid, so if
>it's missing from the bottom of the tank, look for another. They are
>often missing, so check.
>Then just get a small sponge filter and tiny air pump to run it and
>possibly a small submersible heater (again Petsmart has good prices on
>these as well).
>For what, a $30 investment compaired to losing every fish in the house?


>I have 3 of these tank lined up inside my 75g's cabinet.
>Easy to do, and well worth it.



My ****ing God, talk about bull****. I've been in the hobby 40 years,
and I 've never seen a "cycling fish's" gills burned out by ammonia or
anything else

Sir, if you've been in the hobby that long, you should know this by
now!

<<You seem to be convinced that in the majority of cases, that when
anyone purchases some fish at the LFS, that these fish are for a fact
carrying some illness which has a high likelihood of spreading to the
established fish at home. This is a blatant LIE. >>

ROFL!! Oh my, I should have made popcorn for this because it's getting
funny now.

You * should* think that every new fish has the potential to carry in
disease or parasites. That's what's I'm saying here and that's why I
recommend a quarantine tank.
You obviously never introduced one fish that had TB and infected your
entire tank, or maybe a fishroom of Angelfish and introduced a fish
into the house...3 rooms away that, unknowlingly to myself, was a
carrier for the Angelfish virus, aka Discus Plague, and wiped out my
entire fishroom!!
So don't give me your BULL**** !!

<<The vast majority of
fish you find at LFSs aren't carrying infectious illnesses of any
kind.>>

I'm sure you know this for a fact, right? You take a Microscope with
you and do smears on every fish before purchase, correct?
I mean how else could you make such a statement unless you do this.
Sounds like more bull feces to me!
Oh, and no. I do not work for Marineland (makers of Bio Spira). I'm
just smarter now that I am aware of it being available.
I choose NOT to harm any fish during the cycling period. Oh, and
speaking of that...you say you've never seen a fish's gills burnt from
high ammonia levels after using them for cycling, right? I'm sure you
used that rusty microscope to check right? I mean how else could you
make such a statement.
(and yes, I have seen it).

[Tynk]

Derek W. Benson

<<<My opinion is that the water should be changed on a cycling tank to
dilute out ammonia and nitrites if you're testing for these and
register them at possibly harmful levels. This to protect your current
fish from harm. Use a longer period of time to cycle the tank. >>.

What "harm" would that be Derek?
Burnt gill tissue?

[Tynk]

Gill Passman

BTW I'd be rich if I had a pound for everytime I get mistaken for a he
on these fishy NGs - LOL

Gill >>

LOL....Me too!
However, they usually think I'm a gay man!
Sheesh folks, every hear of Tinkerbell, nick named Tink by peter Pan?
= )~

[Tynk]

Tynk wrote to:

Derek W. Benson



<<that rusty microscope to check right?>>

*that would be "trusty", not rusty.

[FishNoob]

In article >,
says...
> I also hope that FishNoob is not put off by all the debates within this
> posting - but actually it is what makes this a great NG :-)

No, not at all. While it's a little confusing reading lots of
different opinions, it's also useful. I would like a step-by-step
"here is the perfect way to start" recipe ;-) - but I've been
impressed by the knowledge and willingness to help that I've found
here, and since I'm not giving up on the fish (see other post), I'll
probably stick around :-)

--
FishNoob

[FishNoob]

In article >,
says...
> Please, FishNoob, don't give up' it's really not hard to get going. Just
> know that as with any hobby, you can't start out on top. After all, it's the
> learning and watching your hard work (I know I said it's not that hard, but
> you must keep at it) pay off, that make this a fun and exciting hobby IMHO.

Oh, no chance of me giving up :-)

- Kids would never forgive me
- Shop wouldn't take the tank back now anyway
- I'm a determined so-and-so

I've noticed it's a steep learning-curve - I'm not scared of that :-)

--
FishNoob

[FishNoob]

In article >,
says...
> > not to get off the subject but...
> > Gill, I never knew you were female. I didn't know TYNK was either for
> > the longest time.
> >
> > -Christie
> >
> But you are as well aren't you I think...maybe us girls should just come
> out - lol

Think I already did ;-)

FWIW, I'd have assumed that Gill and Christie were female, but I'd
have expected TYNK to be male (name, style of writing).

I'm not offended at being taken for a bloke anyway - as long as it
only happens on-line and not in real life, I'm cool with it LOL

--
FishNoob

[FishNoob]

In article >,
says...
> welcome to the hobby, and allow me to commend you on the thoughtful way in
> which you have approached it. your fish will thank you.

Well thanks for the welcome :-). I approach everything in this way -
read, research, question...I think generally it's a good way to be,
though I have to admit that when my children show that they have
inherited my tendency to question everything, it can be a tad
frustrating (read: they have me tearing my hair out LOL)

--
FishNoob

[Tynk]

FishNoob
FWIW, I'd have assumed that Gill and Christie were female, but I'd
have expected TYNK to be male (name, style of writing).

Ok..I have to ask..what about the name Tynk made you think I was a guy?
I can never figure out why..so spill the beans girl! hehe
I thought everyone knew they Peter Pan story.

[Derek W. Benson]

On 12 Sep 2005 21:06:12 -0700, "Tynk" > wrote:

>Derek W. Benson
>
><<<My opinion is that the water should be changed on a cycling tank to
>dilute out ammonia and nitrites if you're testing for these and
>register them at possibly harmful levels. This to protect your current
>fish from harm. Use a longer period of time to cycle the tank. >>.
>
>What "harm" would that be Derek?
>Burnt gill tissue?

Why don't you put a brain in your head someday, you moron. What you
posted previously is this:

"When you use fish to cycle a tank you do harm to them. They suffer
painful burns to the insides of the gills, and often they die from the
stress of it all."

So you insist that ALL fish in ALL circumstances throughout all
history of the world will be harmed and have been harmed when they are
put in a new unestablished tank, for the purpose of cycling. It is
easy as **** to avoid this harm is all I'm saying, you dumbwit. You
have just a very few fish in the tank, the ammonia they are producing
is diluted throughout the large body of water; you change the water on
this tank diluting out more of it. The same applies to nitrite. Maybe
you test for this stuff, if you find it at potentially harmful levels
you change water immediately after the test to dilute the level back
down.

I've never stated in this discussion that "ammonia poisoning doesn't
exist, it can't happen to your fish!" Of course it can happen during
cycling if the aquarist is a complete idiot. It's easy to avoid. So
get that stick out of your ass someday.

-Derek

[Tynk]

Derek wrote:

"When you use fish to cycle a tank you do harm to them. They suffer
painful burns to the insides of the gills, and often they die from the
stress of it all."


So you insist that ALL fish in ALL circumstances throughout all
history of the world will be harmed and have been harmed when they are
put in a new unestablished tank, for the purpose of cycling.

Exactly how many people do think really does the research before
setting up a tank?
Do you really think all these newbies understand that you must do
frequent water changes during a cycling in order NOT to harm the fish.
Just ask any knowldegable person who is involved in the hobby side of
fish keeping, the average folks that get their kid a fish and buy the
tank and fish all at once, didn't do the research and will do those
fish harm if they don't know what they're doing ahead of time. If you
think everyone knows the right way to cycle a tank using fish you are
gravely mistaken.
It seems like all you can do is call names and be mean.
You seem to be the one that has a stick up your ass.
Get over yourself already.
I help countless people every day and have been for many years.
It never surprises me how little, if none at all, research is done
before setting up a tank.
People like Fishnoob are RARE. She's asking for the knowledge.
Too many people don't bother, kill all their fish and wonder why it
happened.
Why does it upset you so when I tell somebody the honest truth?
Research everything I say. Please.
You will find that a fish's gills do get burns from ammonia levels that
are too high (of course this isn't going to happen to a knowldegeable
hobbyist, so don't even go there).
People come here for help, not to hear you cuss me out because you
don't agree, or haven't bothered researching yourself.

<<"When you use fish to cycle a tank you do harm to them. They suffer
painful burns to the insides of the gills, and often they die from the
stress of it all." >>

* P.S....this was 2 different statements.
Cycling a tank is quite stressful on fish. That's a fact my dear.

[lgb]

In article >,
says...
> While it's a little confusing reading lots of
> different opinions, it's also useful. I would like a step-by-step
> "here is the perfect way to start" recipe ;-) - but I've been
> impressed by the knowledge and willingness to help that I've found
> here, and since I'm not giving up on the fish (see other post), I'll
> probably stick around :-)
>
I've been keeping fish for about a year now and I'm a voracious reader.
The main thing I've found is that there's a definite lack of facts and a
great plethora of opinions. You can usually determine that "doing X
results in Y" and "Fish A has behaviour B" most of the time, but not
always.

For example, I got 4 clown loaches last month. Everyone says they
are shoaling fish and need companions and also that they are active
during the day. One of mine is indeed active during the day, but pretty
much ignores the other 3. Those 3 stick together like glue, but are
only active at night.

And I won't even attempt to describe how different bettas can be :-).

So take the best advice you can find, but be prepared for surprises.

--
BNSF = Build Now, Seep Forever

[Steve]

Tynk wrote:
>
>
>>the vast majority of instances the fish you bring home from the store
>>are not going to inflict Ich or other common illnesses upon your
>>present fish. >>
>
>
> This is the biggest hunk of bull feces I've heard in a long time.
> There are diseases in the fish hobby that ARE common that can wipe out
> a fishroom, let alone one tank full of fish.
>

This may be where the name calling started.

Tynk, could you possibly set up your newsreader, so that your posts
clearly discriminate between your text and the quoted text you're
responding to? Thanks.

Steve

[Steve]

Tynk wrote:
> lgb Wrote:
> For example, I got 4 clown loaches last month. Everyone says they
> are shoaling fish and need companions and also that they are active
> during the day. One of mine is indeed active during the day, but
> pretty
> much ignores the other 3. Those 3 stick together like glue, but are
> only active at night. >>
>
> Your Clowns are still new and are still shy towards you.
> When they get to know you're the fishfood God, they'll be begging at
> the front of the tank when they see you.
> It's easy as pie to do too. Wish somebody told me this 30 yrs ago, lol.
> Hand feed them. Simple as that.
> I use a medicine dropper that's only used for this purpose.
> I thaw some bloodworms in a little tank water, suck them up and put the
> dropper down near where they're hiding.
> (I have 3 newer ones at the moment and are going through the taming
> process still).
> I release a little of the worms and all the fish come to gobble them
> up. This brings out the Clowns quickly. In a matter of a week they now
> recognize that my hand on the tank means goodies are coming out of that
> thing (dropper). 2 out of 3 are coming and taking the worms right from
> the end of the dropper..no matter where I hold the dropper inthe
> tank...they're not far behind. The 3 guy (the one I have with a spot on
> his middle instead of a stripe) is still a little shy, but it was the
> shyest of them all. It comes out to eat, it just won't take it by hand
> yet.
> After they're used to the dropper I switch to holding a cube of
> Bloodowrms in my fingers and swoosh it around..they learn not to fear
> my hand too when it's in the tank doing stuff.
> In no time they'll all be begging at the front of the tank when ever
> they see me...not just at feeding time, begging for worms, like
> previous Clown Loaches I've had did.
> Until I did this...feeding them by hand, I never had any Clowns that
> didn't hide all the time and never did they beg at the front of the
> tank.
> Happy taming. = )
>

Tynk,
It's next to impossible to discern what you're saying, and what the
other person is saying. Pls adjust your newsreader to yield postings
that are more clear. Thx.
Steve

[Tynk]

lgb Wrote:
For example, I got 4 clown loaches last month. Everyone says they
are shoaling fish and need companions and also that they are active
during the day. One of mine is indeed active during the day, but
pretty
much ignores the other 3. Those 3 stick together like glue, but are
only active at night. >>

Your Clowns are still new and are still shy towards you.
When they get to know you're the fishfood God, they'll be begging at
the front of the tank when they see you.
It's easy as pie to do too. Wish somebody told me this 30 yrs ago, lol.
Hand feed them. Simple as that.
I use a medicine dropper that's only used for this purpose.
I thaw some bloodworms in a little tank water, suck them up and put the
dropper down near where they're hiding.
(I have 3 newer ones at the moment and are going through the taming
process still).
I release a little of the worms and all the fish come to gobble them
up. This brings out the Clowns quickly. In a matter of a week they now
recognize that my hand on the tank means goodies are coming out of that
thing (dropper). 2 out of 3 are coming and taking the worms right from
the end of the dropper..no matter where I hold the dropper inthe
tank...they're not far behind. The 3 guy (the one I have with a spot on
his middle instead of a stripe) is still a little shy, but it was the
shyest of them all. It comes out to eat, it just won't take it by hand
yet.
After they're used to the dropper I switch to holding a cube of
Bloodowrms in my fingers and swoosh it around..they learn not to fear
my hand too when it's in the tank doing stuff.
In no time they'll all be begging at the front of the tank when ever
they see me...not just at feeding time, begging for worms, like
previous Clown Loaches I've had did.
Until I did this...feeding them by hand, I never had any Clowns that
didn't hide all the time and never did they beg at the front of the
tank.
Happy taming. = )

[David Zopf]

"Steve" > wrote in message
.. .
> Tynk wrote:
> Tynk,
> It's next to impossible to discern what you're saying, and what the other
> person is saying. Pls adjust your newsreader to yield postings that are
> more clear. Thx.


I think I know what the problem is... Tynk, if you are using Google Groups
to post, please use the 'show options" link in the header of the message you
are trying to reply to, and select the "Reply to" option in the dropdown box
that results. That will give you properly attributed text. It looks like
you are hitting the 'Reply" button at the bottom of each post, and doing a
custom cut-and-paste job to build each reply.

Hope that helps...

Regards,
DaveZ
Atom Weaver

[FishNoob]

In article . com>,
says...
> Ok..I have to ask..what about the name Tynk made you think I was a guy?
> I can never figure out why..so spill the beans girl! hehe
> I thought everyone knew they Peter Pan story.

Oh, very familiar with it...especially since we got the DVD LOL

But it was Tinkerbell with an "i", wasn't it? So I wouldn't have made
the connection with your name. I think also someone referred to you
using all upper-case letters, and I assumed you used upper-case
yourself, which seems to be something that mostly men do on ngs
(sweeping generalisation there, based on what I've noticed
elsewhere).

And I suppose that since everyone assumed I was male, I concluded
that the ng was largely populated by males, thus the odds were in
favour of you being one too...

--
FishNoob

[Gill Passman]

FishNoob wrote:
> In article . com>,
> says...
>
>>Ok..I have to ask..what about the name Tynk made you think I was a guy?
>>I can never figure out why..so spill the beans girl! hehe
>>I thought everyone knew they Peter Pan story.
>
>
> Oh, very familiar with it...especially since we got the DVD LOL
>
> But it was Tinkerbell with an "i", wasn't it? So I wouldn't have made
> the connection with your name. I think also someone referred to you
> using all upper-case letters, and I assumed you used upper-case
> yourself, which seems to be something that mostly men do on ngs
> (sweeping generalisation there, based on what I've noticed
> elsewhere).
>
> And I suppose that since everyone assumed I was male, I concluded
> that the ng was largely populated by males, thus the odds were in
> favour of you being one too...
>

Actually when I started reading your posts I misread the name and saw it
as fishnob - so assumed a male - my fault - lol

Tynk I knew was female after an exchange a few months ago regarding
shredded arm nerves....IDzine had me guessing....there are a few others
that don't use real names or have links to a website that shows there
true identity....Now in the UK region most people know that Gill is
short for Gillian or an alternative spelling of Jill (definitely
girlie). But thinking about it, posting on a fish newsgroup as "gill"
has multiple interpretations. Additionally it is not the first time this
confusion has happened. I used to work for an American Software Company
(used to big <g>). Before I was well known to my US colleagues I
received a phone call from a male colleague in software support based in
the US (also remember the assumption that most techies are male)

"Hi can I speak to Gill (soft G)"
"Yes, it is Gill speaking (hard G")
"No I want to talk to someone called Gill (soft G)"
"Yep, that's me"
"No, I want you to go and get HIM right now"
"Please spell the name of the person you want to speak to. I think you
need me"
"G.I.L.L. - Gill (soft G)"
"G.I.L.L. - Gill (Hard G)"
"Oh, I am so sorry, Hi Gill (hard G) can you help me out with this......"


I think Gil for Gilbert is possibly more common than Gill for Gillian....

I would actually think there is a fairly good split in this NG of male
to female but identifying us girls is harder - lol

Gill

[FishNoob]

In article >,
says...
> I would actually think there is a fairly good split in this NG of male
> to female but identifying us girls is harder - lol

It seems so!

And on that note, to bring this back on-topic: how exactly does one
determine the gender of a fish? (Yes, another question from my kids
LOL)

--
FishNoob
female, but tends to use non-gender-specific names for ngs <G>

[Gill Passman]

FishNoob wrote:
> In article >,
> says...
>
>>I would actually think there is a fairly good split in this NG of male
>>to female but identifying us girls is harder - lol
>
>
> It seems so!
>
> And on that note, to bring this back on-topic: how exactly does one
> determine the gender of a fish? (Yes, another question from my kids
> LOL)
>
Depends on the type of fish. What did you have in mind?

Gill

[FishNoob]

In article >,
says...
> > And on that note, to bring this back on-topic: how exactly does one
> > determine the gender of a fish? (Yes, another question from my kids
> > LOL)
> >
> Depends on the type of fish. What did you have in mind?

Well...nothing really. It was more of a general "how can you tell",
iyswim.

--
FishNoob

[Derek W. Benson]

On 13 Sep 2005 09:09:16 -0700, "Tynk" > wrote:

>Derek wrote:
>
>"When you use fish to cycle a tank you do harm to them. They suffer
>painful burns to the insides of the gills, and often they die from the
>stress of it all."
>
>
>So you insist that ALL fish in ALL circumstances throughout all
>history of the world will be harmed and have been harmed when they are
>put in a new unestablished tank, for the purpose of cycling.
>
>Exactly how many people do think really does the research before
>setting up a tank?
>Do you really think all these newbies understand that you must do
>frequent water changes during a cycling in order NOT to harm the fish.
>Just ask any knowldegable person who is involved in the hobby side of
>fish keeping, the average folks that get their kid a fish and buy the
>tank and fish all at once, didn't do the research and will do those
>fish harm if they don't know what they're doing ahead of time. If you
>think everyone knows the right way to cycle a tank using fish you are
>gravely mistaken.
>It seems like all you can do is call names and be mean.
>You seem to be the one that has a stick up your ass.
>Get over yourself already.
>I help countless people every day and have been for many years.
>It never surprises me how little, if none at all, research is done
>before setting up a tank.
>People like Fishnoob are RARE. She's asking for the knowledge.
>Too many people don't bother, kill all their fish and wonder why it
>happened.
>Why does it upset you so when I tell somebody the honest truth?
>Research everything I say. Please.
>You will find that a fish's gills do get burns from ammonia levels that
>are too high (of course this isn't going to happen to a knowldegeable
>hobbyist, so don't even go there).
>People come here for help, not to hear you cuss me out because you
>don't agree, or haven't bothered researching yourself.
>
><<"When you use fish to cycle a tank you do harm to them. They suffer
>painful burns to the insides of the gills, and often they die from the
>stress of it all." >>
>
>* P.S....this was 2 different statements.
>Cycling a tank is quite stressful on fish. That's a fact my dear.

You should do some research yourself: research something called
"logic" or possibly "reason" or maybe "rational". Research these and
discover what they mean and try practicing them, although this will
probably be exceedingly difficult as the way it works with these kind
of things is that you're either born with it or without it. If you
haven't got it, it's exceedingly difficult to learn and train yourself
to it.

YOU are the one who began with the foul language; someone spews their
bile in my direction, I will reply in kind or however I see fit,
asshole.

-Derek

[IDzine01]

Woah there ladies and gents. Let's not forget there are children and
grandmas who come here for advice. Maybe even nuns.

[Gill Passman]

IDzine01 wrote:
> Woah there ladies and gents. Let's not forget there are children and
> grandmas who come here for advice. Maybe even nuns.
>
I'll add to this....we have the privelige of having a very good NG here
(and I have seen some heavily trolled where it was a "life education" to
read the posts...which should have been about fish..or ponds)

I won't let my 11 year old son post to this group.....and usually censor
what he reads....but that is life on NG....but surely can't we agree to
disagree??????

Gill (aka fish breathing apparatus - lol)

[NetMax]

"FishNoob" > wrote in message
. ..
> In article >,
> says...
>> > And on that note, to bring this back on-topic: how exactly does one
>> > determine the gender of a fish? (Yes, another question from my kids
>> > LOL)
>> >
>> Depends on the type of fish. What did you have in mind?
>
> Well...nothing really. It was more of a general "how can you tell",
> iyswim.
>
> --
> FishNoob

Fish are sexed by a variety of ways, and sometimes not at all. Generally
one or a combination of the following : size, colour, brilliance of
colour, length of fins and/or shape of fins. Most cannot be reliably
sexed by external characteristics until older. Some at a few months of
age, and others only when ready for spawning.

Livebearers (Guppies, Mollies, Platys & Swordtails) have a different
shaped fin underneath (fan shaped for girls) and except for the Platy,
usually some other characteristics as well (size & color of Guppy, sword
on tail of Swordtail, larger dorsal fin of Molly).

Egg layers (very long list) have a variety of ways (and sometimes none at
all). Many fish will change colour when they come out of the 'closet'
(alpha male in a tank) or just intensity. Juveniles often share the
female ID, and males delay identifying themselves until the time is
appropriate (optimal breeding chances, or best probability of surviving a
territory battle).

Many do not show the male ID, so sexing is done by the shape of the
females (most easily done when they are filled with eggs). In a species
tank (all of one type of fish), it usually becomes evident who is the
alpha male and sometimes who is the alpha female, especially when
spawning involves pairings. In group spawning (tetra, rasbora, danios
etc), the females are plumper and chased.

With some fish, there isn't really any reliable method, so they are left
to pair themselves off. Given enough choices, they usually get it right
;~).

And lastly (on the subject of gender), NetMax (me) is not part of the
'girl's' club here, but they haven't found a way to get rid of me :o).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Tynk]

Derek W. Benson wrote:
> On 13 Sep 2005 09:09:16 -0700, "Tynk" > wrote:
>
> >Derek wrote:
>
>
> You should do some research yourself: research something called
> "logic" or possibly "reason" or maybe "rational". Research these and
> discover what they mean and try practicing them, although this will
> probably be exceedingly difficult as the way it works with these kind
> of things is that you're either born with it or without it. If you
> haven't got it, it's exceedingly difficult to learn and train yourself
> to it.
>


My, oh my how you lie. Example:

> YOU are the one who began with the foul language; someone spews their
> bile in my direction, I will reply in kind or however I see fit,
> asshole.
>
> -Derek>>>

I typed "bull feces". Neither of those words are foul language.
YOUR reply to my post that I made to SOMBODY ELSE, NOT YOU as you
claim, was the one that used such foul language...The *F* word was the
second word of your post! Since then you have constantly attacked me on
a personal lever. Shall I copy and paste the entire thread for you so
you can read it for yourself, because you are outright lying now.
I don't why, as anyone can just go back and check for themselves.
YOU jumped on me. I wasn't replying to your post. I was replying to:

<<Logic316 Sep 11, 9:02 pm hide options

,Newsgroups: rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc
<From: Logic316 > - Find messages by this
author
<Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 22:02:39 -0400
<Local: Sun, Sep 11 2005 9:02 pm
<Subject: Re: Absolute Beginners
<Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show
<original | Report Abuse >>>>

According to you, I was replying to you. Not so my dear.

According to you, I started with the foul language and name calling.
Nope. You did. Example :
<<Derek W. Benson Sep 12, 12:38 pm hide options

<Newsgroups: rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc
<From: Derek W. Benson > - Find messages by this
author
<Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 19:38:21 +0200
<Local: Mon, Sep 12 2005 12:38 pm
<Subject: Re: Absolute Beginners
<My ****ing God, talk about bull****. >>>

Name calling started with you as well. example:

<Derek W. Benson Sep 13, 10:48 am hide options

<Newsgroups: rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc
<From: Derek W. Benson > - Find messages by this
author
<Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 17:48:13 +0200
<Local: Tues, Sep 13 2005 10:48 am
<Subject: Re: Absolute Beginners

<Why don't you put a brain in your head someday, you moron.

<So
<get that stick out of your ass someday.

You started with the foul language. Have you read any of your posts in
this thread?? Maybe you should re-read them.
You're trying to come off as you've been an angel and I've been
attacking you!

People don't need to deal with this crap on here.
Folks come here to learn, not hear you cuss, call names and give out
incorrect advice.
It's really hard for me to believe that you've been in the hobby for 40
yrs. I would think you would have kept up with the times, guess not.
With the advances in the hobby, we (that is those who have kept up with
current information)know that yes...a fish's gills can be burnt from
high ammonia levels. Fish can die from the stress of the cycling
process.
And NO..fishless cycling is not best left to rocket scientists (your
statement). Like I said before, a monkey could do it.
You think I'm so wrong about this...prove me wrong!
Please! I'd like nothing more than to see facts stating that the
scientists were all wrong, the burned gills (yes, I have seen it) were
a lie, and that it doesn't stress out the fish at all.....
Uh huh....and pigs have wings.
If you feel you must reply....do so to me directly from now on.
Leave it off the boards. I replied directly to YOU. Instead of keeping
it off here, you chose to post it here. Do you have some sort of last
word issues, if so..just type "WORD" in the reply. Otherwise, just lay
off already!

[Tynk]

Tynk wrote:
> Derek W. Benson wrote:
> > On 13 Sep 2005 09:09:16 -0700, "Tynk" > wrote:
> >
> > >Derek wrote:
> >
> >
> > You should do some research yourself: research something called
> > "logic" or possibly "reason" or maybe "rational". Research these and
> > discover what they mean and try practicing them, although this will
> > probably be exceedingly difficult as the way it works with these kind
> > of things is that you're either born with it or without it. If you
> > haven't got it, it's exceedingly difficult to learn and train yourself
> > to it.
> >
>
>
> My, oh my how you lie. Example:
>
> > YOU are the one who began with the foul language; someone spews their
> > bile in my direction, I will reply in kind or however I see fit,
> > asshole.
> >
> > -Derek>>>
>
> I typed "bull feces". Neither of those words are foul language.
> YOUR reply to my post that I made to SOMBODY ELSE, NOT YOU as you
> claim, was the one that used such foul language...The *F* word was the
> second word of your post! Since then you have constantly attacked me on
> a personal lever. Shall I copy and paste the entire thread for you so
> you can read it for yourself, because you are outright lying now.
> I don't why, as anyone can just go back and check for themselves.
> YOU jumped on me. I wasn't replying to your post. I was replying to:
>
> <<Logic316 Sep 11, 9:02 pm hide options
>
> ,Newsgroups: rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc
> <From: Logic316 > - Find messages by this
> author
> <Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 22:02:39 -0400
> <Local: Sun, Sep 11 2005 9:02 pm
> <Subject: Re: Absolute Beginners
> <Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show
> <original | Report Abuse >>>>
>
> According to you, I was replying to you. Not so my dear.
>
> According to you, I started with the foul language and name calling.
> Nope. You did. Example :
> <<Derek W. Benson Sep 12, 12:38 pm hide options
>
> <Newsgroups: rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc
> <From: Derek W. Benson > - Find messages by this
> author
> <Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 19:38:21 +0200
> <Local: Mon, Sep 12 2005 12:38 pm
> <Subject: Re: Absolute Beginners
> <My ****ing God, talk about bull****. >>>
>
> Name calling started with you as well. example:
>
> <Derek W. Benson Sep 13, 10:48 am hide options
>
> <Newsgroups: rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc
> <From: Derek W. Benson > - Find messages by this
> author
> <Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 17:48:13 +0200
> <Local: Tues, Sep 13 2005 10:48 am
> <Subject: Re: Absolute Beginners
>
> <Why don't you put a brain in your head someday, you moron.
>
> <So
> <get that stick out of your ass someday.
>
> You started with the foul language. Have you read any of your posts in
> this thread?? Maybe you should re-read them.
> You're trying to come off as you've been an angel and I've been
> attacking you!
>
> People don't need to deal with this crap on here.
> Folks come here to learn, not hear you cuss, call names and give out
> incorrect advice.
> It's really hard for me to believe that you've been in the hobby for 40
> yrs. I would think you would have kept up with the times, guess not.
> With the advances in the hobby, we (that is those who have kept up with
> current information)know that yes...a fish's gills can be burnt from
> high ammonia levels. Fish can die from the stress of the cycling
> process.
> And NO..fishless cycling is not best left to rocket scientists (your
> statement). Like I said before, a monkey could do it.
> You think I'm so wrong about this...prove me wrong!
> Please! I'd like nothing more than to see facts stating that the
> scientists were all wrong, the burned gills (yes, I have seen it) were
> a lie, and that it doesn't stress out the fish at all.....
> Uh huh....and pigs have wings.
> If you feel you must reply....do so to me directly from now on.
> Leave it off the boards. I replied directly to YOU. Instead of keeping
> it off here, you chose to post it here. Do you have some sort of last
> word issues, if so..just type "WORD" in the reply. Otherwise, just lay
> off already!

Folks, I'm sorry for my part in this ****ing game.
But I refuse to just let somebody go off on me for no reason, outright
lie, etc and not say a word about it. However, I am done with this
fool.
Anyone can see he's not current on the facts now.
Of course things are going to be easier on the cycling fish when done
by an expert in the hobby...but the O. P. was a beginner,and needed
beginner info.
A beginner may not understand the importance of water changes during
the cycling period. Look how many people will say not to change a drop
of water for a month...I've even heard folks say 3 months!! That would
be a death sentence to the fish.
As with so many other things, as time goes by we learn more about
things. Somtiems we find out that what used to be the standard, turns
out to be harmful.
Years back the Doc told my Mother NOT to quit smoking, as the withdrawl
from nicotine may be stressful on the baby. Unreal today to even
suggest such a thing. However, we know more now...same goes for this
hobby.
Just like 10 yrs ago I had a doc tell me there wasn't such a thing as
PMS.
ROFL...sure! Just ask any hubby!
If you are in this hobby, you should keep current on it.
Don't just get set in your ways and quit learning, that's no fun.

[Tynk]

Tynk wrote:
> Derek W. Benson wrote:
> > On 13 Sep 2005 09:09:16 -0700, "Tynk" > wrote:
> >
> > >Derek wrote:
> >
> >
> > You should do some research yourself: research something called
> > "logic" or possibly "reason" or maybe "rational". Research these and
> > discover what they mean and try practicing them, although this will
> > probably be exceedingly difficult as the way it works with these kind
> > of things is that you're either born with it or without it. If you
> > haven't got it, it's exceedingly difficult to learn and train yourself
> > to it.
> >
>
>
> My, oh my how you lie. Example:
>
> > YOU are the one who began with the foul language; someone spews their
> > bile in my direction, I will reply in kind or however I see fit,
> > asshole.
> >
> > -Derek>>>
>
> I typed "bull feces". Neither of those words are foul language.
> YOUR reply to my post that I made to SOMBODY ELSE, NOT YOU as you
> claim, was the one that used such foul language...The *F* word was the
> second word of your post! Since then you have constantly attacked me on
> a personal lever. Shall I copy and paste the entire thread for you so
> you can read it for yourself, because you are outright lying now.
> I don't why, as anyone can just go back and check for themselves.
> YOU jumped on me. I wasn't replying to your post. I was replying to:
>
> <<Logic316 Sep 11, 9:02 pm hide options
>
> ,Newsgroups: rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc
> <From: Logic316 > - Find messages by this
> author
> <Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 22:02:39 -0400
> <Local: Sun, Sep 11 2005 9:02 pm
> <Subject: Re: Absolute Beginners
> <Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show
> <original | Report Abuse >>>>
>
> According to you, I was replying to you. Not so my dear.
>
> According to you, I started with the foul language and name calling.
> Nope. You did. Example :
> <<Derek W. Benson Sep 12, 12:38 pm hide options
>
> <Newsgroups: rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc
> <From: Derek W. Benson > - Find messages by this
> author
> <Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 19:38:21 +0200
> <Local: Mon, Sep 12 2005 12:38 pm
> <Subject: Re: Absolute Beginners
> <My ****ing God, talk about bull****. >>>
>
> Name calling started with you as well. example:
>
> <Derek W. Benson Sep 13, 10:48 am hide options
>
> <Newsgroups: rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc
> <From: Derek W. Benson > - Find messages by this
> author
> <Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 17:48:13 +0200
> <Local: Tues, Sep 13 2005 10:48 am
> <Subject: Re: Absolute Beginners
>
> <Why don't you put a brain in your head someday, you moron.
>
> <So
> <get that stick out of your ass someday.
>
> You started with the foul language. Have you read any of your posts in
> this thread?? Maybe you should re-read them.
> You're trying to come off as you've been an angel and I've been
> attacking you!
>
> People don't need to deal with this crap on here.
> Folks come here to learn, not hear you cuss, call names and give out
> incorrect advice.
> It's really hard for me to believe that you've been in the hobby for 40
> yrs. I would think you would have kept up with the times, guess not.
> With the advances in the hobby, we (that is those who have kept up with
> current information)know that yes...a fish's gills can be burnt from
> high ammonia levels. Fish can die from the stress of the cycling
> process.
> And NO..fishless cycling is not best left to rocket scientists (your
> statement). Like I said before, a monkey could do it.
> You think I'm so wrong about this...prove me wrong!
> Please! I'd like nothing more than to see facts stating that the
> scientists were all wrong, the burned gills (yes, I have seen it) were
> a lie, and that it doesn't stress out the fish at all.....
> Uh huh....and pigs have wings.
> If you feel you must reply....do so to me directly from now on.
> Leave it off the boards. I replied directly to YOU. Instead of keeping
> it off here, you chose to post it here. Do you have some sort of last
> word issues, if so..just type "WORD" in the reply. Otherwise, just lay
> off already!

Folks, I'm sorry for my part in this ****ing game.
But I refuse to just let somebody go off on me for no reason, outright
lie, etc and not say a word about it. However, I am done with this
fool.
Anyone can see he's not current on the facts now.
Of course things are going to be easier on the cycling fish when done
by an expert in the hobby...but the O. P. was a beginner,and needed
beginner info.
A beginner may not understand the importance of water changes during
the cycling period. Look how many people will say not to change a drop
of water for a month...I've even heard folks say 3 months!! That would
be a death sentence to the fish.
As with so many other things, as time goes by we learn more about
things. Somtiems we find out that what used to be the standard, turns
out to be harmful.
Years back the Doc told my Mother NOT to quit smoking, as the withdrawl
from nicotine may be stressful on the baby. Unreal today to even
suggest such a thing. However, we know more now...same goes for this
hobby.
Just like 10 yrs ago I had a doc tell me there wasn't such a thing as
PMS.
ROFL...sure! Just ask any hubby!
If you are in this hobby, you should keep current on it.
Don't just get set in your ways and quit learning, that's no fun.

[Derek W. Benson]

On 14 Sep 2005 20:16:08 -0700, "Tynk" > wrote:

>Anyone can see he's not current on the facts now.

You made the following statement earlier:

"Here's an even easier solution. Find a local PetLand. Call them up
and ask if they have any Bio Spira in stock. In needs to stay in the
frige and kept cold, so if ya buy some go right home with it and put
it into the frige. It has live bacteria in it and will fully cycle
your tank in 24 hours. That means you can dump in Bio Spira and fully
stock your tank with fish the same day!!"

If you are so concerned with "facts", as you call them, then prove the
validity of your above statement. You have seen results of independent
scientific testing of this product have you? Results which prove that
this product works as you describe? Post the link. It's presumably a
product which seeds beneficial bacteria into a new tank, nothing more.
I haven't seen one single regular on this group answering on this
thread and saying: "Yes this product works exactly as Tynk describes,
just dump it in and your tank is fully cycled in 24 hours, period. And
it has been scientifically proven as fact." If it is a known fact as
you proclaim, certainly other knowledgeable regulars know about it. I
think your statement I've quoted above is bull****.

Oh, make sure you quote, in your particularly unintelligible style,
everything in this thread maybe five more times, and then post it
twice or maybe three times. This is helpful, drives home the point
you're trying to make.

-Derek

[lgb]

In article >,
says...
> Oh, make sure you quote, in your particularly unintelligible style,
> everything in this thread maybe five more times, and then post it
> twice or maybe three times. This is helpful, drives home the point
> you're trying to make.
>
OK, you apparently get your kicks by being an obnoxious pest. Into the
bozo bin!

While I may not always agree with Tynk, I usually do. And that's a lot
better record than yours. Goodbye, troll.

--
BNSF = Build Now, Seep Forever

[Tynk]

Derek W. Benson wrote:
> On 14 Sep 2005 20:16:08 -0700, "Tynk" > wrote:
>
> >Anyone can see he's not current on the facts now.
>
> You made the following statement earlier:
>
> "Here's an even easier solution. Find a local PetLand. Call them up
> and ask if they have any Bio Spira in stock. In needs to stay in the
> frige and kept cold, so if ya buy some go right home with it and put
> it into the frige. It has live bacteria in it and will fully cycle
> your tank in 24 hours. That means you can dump in Bio Spira and fully
> stock your tank with fish the same day!!"
>
> If you are so concerned with "facts", as you call them, then prove the
> validity of your above statement. You have seen results of independent
> scientific testing of this product have you? Results which prove that
> this product works as you describe? Post the link. It's presumably a
> product which seeds beneficial bacteria into a new tank, nothing more.
> I haven't seen one single regular on this group answering on this
> thread and saying: "Yes this product works exactly as Tynk describes,
> just dump it in and your tank is fully cycled in 24 hours, period. And
> it has been scientifically proven as fact." If it is a known fact as
> you proclaim, certainly other knowledgeable regulars know about it. I
> think your statement I've quoted above is bull****.
>
> Oh, make sure you quote, in your particularly unintelligible style,
> everything in this thread maybe five more times, and then post it
> twice or maybe three times. This is helpful, drives home the point
> you're trying to make.
>
> -Derek
http://marineland.com/science/nspira.asp

http://www.ponddoc.com/WhatsUpDoc/WaterQuality/NatureBalance.htm


http://www.aquatic-hobbyist.com/profiles/disease/freshwater/ammonia.html

http://www.springdalewatergardens.com/articles/fsfaqs.html#25

http://saltaquarium.about.com/od/sal****erfishdiseases/a/aa061704ammonia.htm

http://www.kokosgoldfish.com/Ammonia.html

http://www.aquariumcorner.com/cycling.htm

http://eric.petfish.net/basic.htm

Will it take more to convince you? If so, I can make a list of links
that will stretch from IL to TX.
Please, read them all. I don't want to argue with you, I want to
educate you for the sake of your fish.

[Derek W. Benson]

On 15 Sep 2005 20:00:54 -0700, "Tynk" > wrote:

>http://marineland.com/science/nspira.asp

Oh this is really independent research and testing of the product,
YES! MarineLand developed the product and here are the articles from
the MarineLand scientist who developed it. It sounds to me from his
description that it is a SEEDING product, seed the beneficial bacteria
into your tank; and this is fine as far as it goes. I can't find any
statement by him in these articles that your tank is fully cycled,
dump in all your fish the day after. It may very well say this on the
product itself, in which case the statement on the bottle is most
likely coming from the Marketing Department!

>http://www.ponddoc.com/WhatsUpDoc/WaterQuality/NatureBalance.htm
>
>http://www.aquatic-hobbyist.com/profiles/disease/freshwater/ammonia.html
>
>http://www.springdalewatergardens.com/articles/fsfaqs.html#25
>
>http://saltaquarium.about.com/od/sal****erfishdiseases/a/aa061704ammonia.htm
>
>http://www.kokosgoldfish.com/Ammonia.html
>
>http://www.aquariumcorner.com/cycling.htm
>
>http://eric.petfish.net/basic.htm

All of these above links are simply about the nitrogen cycle, ammonia,
nitrite, cycling etc. I know all about it, I've read about it in
aquarium books 30 and 40 years ago or 25 years ago or whenever. These
links are completely irrelevant as concerns your Bio-Spira claims,
except for one of them. On all of the others Bio-Spira isn't even
mentioned.

Aquarium Corner mentions cycling with Bio-Spira, and this is what's
written:

"You're probably wondering what Bio-Spira is, right? Bio-Spira is a
new product made by MarineLand Labs and it is refrigerated nitrifying
bacteria ("good bacteria"). When you cycle a tank the normal way you
cannot produce nitrifying bacteria until about 3-5 weeks into the
cycle. By adding Bio-Spira, you cut down the cycling time from 4-8
weeks to just 1-2 weeks. (On the package it says the tank will be safe
overnight, but this is slightly exaggerated.) The other good news with
Bio-Spira is that it makes the tank sufficiently safe as soon as it's
added that you can go ahead and put the fish in until the cycling is
fully complete. I can tell you from personal experience that Bio-Spira
really works and it's amazing; a great time-saver. However, not all
pet stores carry it and it can be hard to find. Prices may vary a
little from store to store but in my experience it's usually right
around $10 to treat 30 gallons of water. If you can find this in your
area I HIGHLY recommend getting some and using it to cycle your tank."

Ah well, too bad he put in the part in parentheses, this part: "(On
the package it says the tank will be safe overnight, but this is
slightly exaggerated.)" So it appears that this author has used it and
it is a beneficial bacteria seeding product which seems to work well.
Fine. I can do this by taking my filter from an established tank and
hooking it up to a new tank and letting it run for awhile. Or maybe
some of the water from a tank or some of the gravel goes in the new
tank.

>Will it take more to convince you? If so, I can make a list of links
>that will stretch from IL to TX.
>Please, read them all. I don't want to argue with you, I want to
>educate you for the sake of your fish.

Based upon the two sites from your list of links which mention
Bio-Spira, I am not convinced that anyone should use this product and
24 hours later dump in a full complement of fish as you have
suggested. Such a suggestion is irresponsible, IMO. Go educate
yourself, you need it.

-Derek

[Tynk]

Derek W. Benson wrote:
> On 15 Sep 2005 20:00:54 -0700, "Tynk" > wrote:
>
> >http://marineland.com/science/nspira.asp
>
> Oh this is really independent research and testing of the product,
> YES! MarineLand developed the product and here are the articles from
> the MarineLand scientist who developed it. It sounds to me from his
> description that it is a SEEDING product, seed the beneficial bacteria
> into your tank; and this is fine as far as it goes. I can't find any
> statement by him in these articles that your tank is fully cycled,
> dump in all your fish the day after. It may very well say this on the
> product itself, in which case the statement on the bottle is most
> likely coming from the Marketing Department!
>
> >http://www.ponddoc.com/WhatsUpDoc/WaterQuality/NatureBalance.htm
> >
> >http://www.aquatic-hobbyist.com/profiles/disease/freshwater/ammonia.html
> >
> >http://www.springdalewatergardens.com/articles/fsfaqs.html#25
> >
> >http://saltaquarium.about.com/od/sal****erfishdiseases/a/aa061704ammonia.htm
> >
> >http://www.kokosgoldfish.com/Ammonia.html
> >
> >http://www.aquariumcorner.com/cycling.htm
> >
> >http://eric.petfish.net/basic.htm
>
> All of these above links are simply about the nitrogen cycle, ammonia,
> nitrite, cycling etc. I know all about it, I've read about it in
> aquarium books 30 and 40 years ago or 25 years ago or whenever. These
> links are completely irrelevant as concerns your Bio-Spira claims,
> except for one of them. On all of the others Bio-Spira isn't even
> mentioned.
>
> Aquarium Corner mentions cycling with Bio-Spira, and this is what's
> written:
>
> "You're probably wondering what Bio-Spira is, right? Bio-Spira is a
> new product made by MarineLand Labs and it is refrigerated nitrifying
> bacteria ("good bacteria"). When you cycle a tank the normal way you
> cannot produce nitrifying bacteria until about 3-5 weeks into the
> cycle. By adding Bio-Spira, you cut down the cycling time from 4-8
> weeks to just 1-2 weeks. (On the package it says the tank will be safe
> overnight, but this is slightly exaggerated.) The other good news with
> Bio-Spira is that it makes the tank sufficiently safe as soon as it's
> added that you can go ahead and put the fish in until the cycling is
> fully complete. I can tell you from personal experience that Bio-Spira
> really works and it's amazing; a great time-saver. However, not all
> pet stores carry it and it can be hard to find. Prices may vary a
> little from store to store but in my experience it's usually right
> around $10 to treat 30 gallons of water. If you can find this in your
> area I HIGHLY recommend getting some and using it to cycle your tank."
>
> Ah well, too bad he put in the part in parentheses, this part: "(On
> the package it says the tank will be safe overnight, but this is
> slightly exaggerated.)" So it appears that this author has used it and
> it is a beneficial bacteria seeding product which seems to work well.
> Fine. I can do this by taking my filter from an established tank and
> hooking it up to a new tank and letting it run for awhile. Or maybe
> some of the water from a tank or some of the gravel goes in the new
> tank.
>
> >Will it take more to convince you? If so, I can make a list of links
> >that will stretch from IL to TX.
> >Please, read them all. I don't want to argue with you, I want to
> >educate you for the sake of your fish.
>
> Based upon the two sites from your list of links which mention
> Bio-Spira, I am not convinced that anyone should use this product and
> 24 hours later dump in a full complement of fish as you have
> suggested. Such a suggestion is irresponsible, IMO. Go educate
> yourself, you need it.
>
> -Derek

The rest of the link, not the Marineland one, were to show you that
yes, ammonia levels do in fact burn gill tissue when a fish is used for
cycling. I had thought that you were saying all along that this wasn't
true (as you have said in your other posts).
I can see from your reply that you simply want to argue and and argue
which I will not. I don't care to waste my time on such a fool anymore.
I have used Bio Spira myself many times now.
I've personally seen it work with my own eyes. When I purchased a new
75g, I filled it, added Bio Spira and added 4, (4" diameter body
size)Angelfish and all my females Bettas. That's fully stocked, if not
overstocked.
It worked! Being in the hobby for so long this was SO wrong to me. The
only reason I even tried it was because I had the recommendations from
several highly qualified aquarists. I couldn't believe my own tests. It
works and the only way you're going to be convinced is if you try it
yourself. However, being closed minded and set in your ways, I highly
doubt you will. How sad for your fish.
Not too long ago a female Betta showed symptoms of TB. Sure enough,
other fish started showing typical symptoms so I waited for them to go
on their own, and had to euthanize the ones that were suffering from
lesions.
I bleached the tank and restarted using Bio Spira again. Same results.
Cycled in 24 hours. I now use it in all the single male Betta 1 gal's
with their weekly 100% water changes, and on all 3 Eclipse 3 tanks when
they were set up as well..also when I recently switched all the gravel
in every one of my other 9 tanks (not including the 75g). Again....no
bacteria blooms, just a perfectly cycled tank. Obviously no amount of
convincing from anyone who had used it will convince you otherwise, and
I even bet if you actually tried it, you'd lie and say it didn't work
out of spite.
I can have countless people email you if you'd like with their results
as well.
I'm guessing you think I'm the only one in the world besides Marineland
that claims this works, and has used it.
Of course Marnineland is the only company right now with this
product....they put the money into the research, they found that :
<< "Therefore, the results show that Nitrobacter and its close
relatives are not the nitrite-oxidizing bacteria in aquarium filters.
Rather that job is done by Nitrospira-like bacteria. ">>
They have a patent on it and until it's runs out, no other company can
make it.
(great for Marineland, but sucks for us...the consumer).
Your main argument with me has been over the ammonia levels burning the
gill tissue. All but the first link, were to show you examples to back
up what I'm saying...cycling with fish can cause cause burnt gill
tissue...hence the reason for using Bio Spira in the first place.
The link for Bio Spira was so you can read for yourself.
The more I read from you the more I'm starting to feel sorry for you.
So much anger, resentment, disbelief, bitterness, lashing out, and for
what? Simply to argue. Test it out for yourself. Are you afraid of
finding out that you were wrong? If not....try it out. Just don't use
any ammonia neutralizing dechlorinators, as it messes up the Bio Spira.
StressCoat or NovAqua would do fine to name a couple.

[Tynk]

<snipped for legnth>

A regular member of this NG sent me these snips via email:
I'm not the only one here who recommends Bio Spira.
Maybe you reccognize NetMax and Coolchinchilla?

The following are snipped from this NG:


Message-ID: >
Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 08:06:15 -0400
NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.226.122.124
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X-Trace: news20.bellglobal.com 1125230777 209.226.122.124 (Sun, 28 Aug
2005
08:06:17 EDT)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 08:06:17 EDT
Organization: Bell Sympatico
Xref: sn-us rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc:193261


The best is to take it empirically, using aged filter media, ornaments,
rocks, bit of gravel you minimize the cycle, and then just take your
measurements. You can always cheat with some Biospira bacteria
starter,
and then introduce all the fish at the same time, effectively making
the
tank into a quarantine tank, and reducing the number of disease vectors
which come from introducing fish slowly.
--
www.NetMax.tk

Path: sn-us!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail
From: coolchinchilla >
Newsgroups: rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc
Subject: Re: Going to try getting an older woman friend of mine started
in
fishkeeping at her request!
Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 23:04:31 -0500
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
Message-ID: >
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716)
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Xref: sn-us rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc:193231

Daniel Morrow wrote:
> An older woman friend of mine (Jeanette) recently told me she bought an 18
> gallon tank for $4.00 U.S. dollars at a garage sale and says she wants to
> get some pet fish. I would like any opinions on how I can help to as
easily
> as possibly get her tank set up as good as possible.
Help her get informed about the hobby by getting a book from the
library or purchase one from Amazon.com If she understands more,
she'll enjoy setting it up more.

>Except for a recently
> running air driven sponge filter

Yes. If you can put the seeded sponge in her tank it will greatly
decrease the time it takes to cycle. You can also try biospira -- a
product that actually does have the bacteria to instantly cycle your
tank. It is refrigerated and sold in pet stores. If you go that
route, it's important to put the birospira and a full tank of fish
in at the same time.

> I don't have any transferable media that I
> could use from my particular setup so I was thinking of cycling her tank
the
> old fashioned way by getting feeder fish

I'd recommend doing a fishless cycle becasue the ammonia and nitrite
spikes burn even a hearty fish's gills.

<snip>

> She might buy tetras,
> etc. at the pet store after cycling is over and I could use suggestions
for
> an 18 gallon tank.

Glowlite tetras and head-tail light tetras are the heartier among
tetras. Neons should be only added to an established tank. They're
a bit delicate. Also tetras are schooling fish so you'd need at
least 6.

<snip>

> Any recommendations/suggestions/comments/lists of fish/ lists of
> plants/ etc. would be welcome.

Here is a website on suggestions for stocking new aquariums. It
also gives an indication on how hearty various fish are. Might be
helpful.
http://www.elmersaquarium.com/c106communityinfo.htm

This is the Drs. Foster & Smith website. Obviously they are
marketing their products but I find their instruction pages very
useful. Here is the index page for aquariums. You might print a
page or two for your friend to pique her interest.

http://tinyurl.com/cctod

Hope that helps.
coolchinchilla

[NetMax]

"Tynk" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> <snipped for legnth>
>
> A regular member of this NG sent me these snips via email:
> I'm not the only one here who recommends Bio Spira.
> Maybe you reccognize NetMax and Coolchinchilla?
>
> The following are snipped from this NG:
>
>
> Message-ID: >
> Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 08:06:15 -0400
> NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.226.122.124
> X-Complaints-To:
> X-Trace: news20.bellglobal.com 1125230777 209.226.122.124 (Sun, 28 Aug
> 2005
> 08:06:17 EDT)
> NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 08:06:17 EDT
> Organization: Bell Sympatico
> Xref: sn-us rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc:193261
>
>
> The best is to take it empirically, using aged filter media, ornaments,
> rocks, bit of gravel you minimize the cycle, and then just take your
> measurements. You can always cheat with some Biospira bacteria
> starter,
> and then introduce all the fish at the same time, effectively making
> the
> tank into a quarantine tank, and reducing the number of disease vectors
> which come from introducing fish slowly.
> --
> www.NetMax.tk


hmmm, perhaps that quote was a little tongue-in-cheek. I have no
personal experience with Biospira but have followed the progress of
established and very credible hobbyists who have reported excellent
results. Also, my idea of 'all the fish' is a cycle-load which is about
20% of the tank's capacity. For new setups, I like to buy juveniles and
watch them grow up anyways.

Sorry I can't provide first hand observations. I'm probably not going to
have any occasion to try Biospira anyways, as I always have established
tanks to cross-seed from, but if I didn't, then I'd be calling around
town to try to find the stuff.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Tynk]

NetMax wrote:
> "Tynk" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > <snipped for legnth>
> >
> > A regular member of this NG sent me these snips via email:
> > I'm not the only one here who recommends Bio Spira.
> > Maybe you reccognize NetMax and Coolchinchilla?
> >
> > The following are snipped from this NG:
> >
> >
> > Message-ID: >
> > Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 08:06:15 -0400
> > NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.226.122.124
> > X-Complaints-To:
> > X-Trace: news20.bellglobal.com 1125230777 209.226.122.124 (Sun, 28 Aug
> > 2005
> > 08:06:17 EDT)
> > NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 08:06:17 EDT
> > Organization: Bell Sympatico
> > Xref: sn-us rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc:193261
> >
> >
> > The best is to take it empirically, using aged filter media, ornaments,
> > rocks, bit of gravel you minimize the cycle, and then just take your
> > measurements. You can always cheat with some Biospira bacteria
> > starter,
> > and then introduce all the fish at the same time, effectively making
> > the
> > tank into a quarantine tank, and reducing the number of disease vectors
> > which come from introducing fish slowly.
> > --
> > www.NetMax.tk
>
>
> hmmm, perhaps that quote was a little tongue-in-cheek. I have no
> personal experience with Biospira but have followed the progress of
> established and very credible hobbyists who have reported excellent
> results. Also, my idea of 'all the fish' is a cycle-load which is about
> 20% of the tank's capacity. For new setups, I like to buy juveniles and
> watch them grow up anyways.
>
> Sorry I can't provide first hand observations. I'm probably not going to
> have any occasion to try Biospira anyways, as I always have established
> tanks to cross-seed from, but if I didn't, then I'd be calling around
> town to try to find the stuff.
> --
> www.NetMax.tk

.. For new setups, I like to buy juveniles and
> watch them grow up anyways.
>
Oh me too. I find baby Angelfish the cutest little buggers. My favorite
is when they are dime (US currency) size.
Those that have bred them know what I mean. They are so fun, so tiny
and so full of spunk. Adorable.
As much as I love Bettas, I think they're ugly until they start
coloring up. Just don't tell them I said that!

[Derek W. Benson]

On 16 Sep 2005 14:18:58 -0700, "Tynk" > wrote:

>The rest of the link, not the Marineland one, were to show you that
>yes, ammonia levels do in fact burn gill tissue when a fish is used for
>cycling. I had thought that you were saying all along that this wasn't
>true (as you have said in your other posts).

I haven't said anywhere that "This Isn't true!!" you arrogant moron.
Yes it can happen if the aquarist is a complete idiot. What you have
insisted upon is that EVERY FISH will have it's gills burnt to blazes
if you put it in a new unestablished tank. So this is millions and
tens of millions of fish throughout the years. Ammonia poisoning and
nitrite poisoning in a new tank can be avoided, it's really no
problem.

>I can see from your reply that you simply want to argue and and argue
>which I will not. I don't care to waste my time on such a fool anymore.
>I have used Bio Spira myself many times now.
>I've personally seen it work with my own eyes. When I purchased a new
>75g, I filled it, added Bio Spira and added 4, (4" diameter body
>size)Angelfish and all my females Bettas. That's fully stocked, if not
>overstocked.
>It worked! Being in the hobby for so long this was SO wrong to me. The
>only reason I even tried it was because I had the recommendations from
>several highly qualified aquarists. I couldn't believe my own tests. It
>works and the only way you're going to be convinced is if you try it
>yourself. However, being closed minded and set in your ways, I highly
>doubt you will. How sad for your fish.

The chances are extremely minimal that I could ever find Bio-Spira
where I live. I have never seen any of my "cycling fish" get burned
away from ammonia or anything else, although when I was a kid or
teenager this could of course have happened without my knowing what
was going on; I can't recall specifically every single "new tank fish"
that I purchased 35 years ago or 40 years ago. There isn't anything
sad about my fish at all, they're perfectly healthy and happy. You
imply that because I didn't start up my current tank 5 years ago with
Bio-Spira that all my fish are doomed to destruction, all my fish have
had their gills burned away. You're ridiculous and foolish.

>Not too long ago a female Betta showed symptoms of TB. Sure enough,
>other fish started showing typical symptoms so I waited for them to go
>on their own, and had to euthanize the ones that were suffering from
>lesions.
>I bleached the tank and restarted using Bio Spira again. Same results.
>Cycled in 24 hours. I now use it in all the single male Betta 1 gal's
>with their weekly 100% water changes, and on all 3 Eclipse 3 tanks when
>they were set up as well..also when I recently switched all the gravel
>in every one of my other 9 tanks (not including the 75g). Again....no
>bacteria blooms, just a perfectly cycled tank. Obviously no amount of
>convincing from anyone who had used it will convince you otherwise, and
>I even bet if you actually tried it, you'd lie and say it didn't work
>out of spite.
>I can have countless people email you if you'd like with their results
>as well.

Whatever you do, don't do this. I'm not interested in any e-mail
penpals supplied by you or anyone else on this group. If Bio-Spira
works fine as a seeding medium for beneficial bacteria, fine, good for
it.

>I'm guessing you think I'm the only one in the world besides Marineland
>that claims this works, and has used it.
>Of course Marnineland is the only company right now with this
>product....they put the money into the research, they found that :
><< "Therefore, the results show that Nitrobacter and its close
>relatives are not the nitrite-oxidizing bacteria in aquarium filters.
>Rather that job is done by Nitrospira-like bacteria. ">>
>They have a patent on it and until it's runs out, no other company can
>make it.
>(great for Marineland, but sucks for us...the consumer).
>Your main argument with me has been over the ammonia levels burning the
>gill tissue. All but the first link, were to show you examples to back
>up what I'm saying...cycling with fish can cause cause burnt gill
>tissue...hence the reason for using Bio Spira in the first place.
>The link for Bio Spira was so you can read for yourself.
>The more I read from you the more I'm starting to feel sorry for you.
>So much anger, resentment, disbelief, bitterness, lashing out, and for
>what? Simply to argue. Test it out for yourself. Are you afraid of
>finding out that you were wrong? If not....try it out. Just don't use
>any ammonia neutralizing dechlorinators, as it messes up the Bio Spira.
>StressCoat or NovAqua would do fine to name a couple.

I have wasted my time replying to you because I think you're spewing
out disinformation. Another example is your insistence that fish in
stores are always going to be sick, as if the majority of fish in all
stores on planet Earth are carrying illnesses. Thorough baloney.
Anyone with minimal experience can study the fish in a store for
awhile and determine if the fish appear to be healthy. USUALLY, if the
fish one is considering purchasing shows no sign of illness at the
store, it has no illness. The VAST MAJORITY of fish I've ever
purchased which have appeared to be healthy, have, lo and behold!,
been healthy after I bring them home. What a surprise! (To some people
at least.)

I've read all your supplied links, so you can now do some research
which I suggest to you. Look through all the previous threads in this
group which are there in your newsreader. Read all the threads started
by Connie. Connie has started up her tank twice in recent months by
"fishless cycling" her tank. Both times her fish were wiped out
afterwards by ammonia spikes and/or nitrite spikes which occurred
after her tank was finished "cyclig". She wasn't using Bio-Spira to my
knowledge, she was "cycling" her tank with liquid ammonia. It is
because people have experiences like Connie's that I am against
anything having to do with supposed "fishless cycling" of an aquarium.
One of the links you supplied, Aquarium Corner I think, has a
description of cycling with ammonia. Add a specific amount of ammonia,
test for ammonia the next day, depending on this level you add some
more ammonia, do this every day for many days, oh and you also have to
start testing for nitrite I think it said. At the end the author says
to be aware that the process can take 4-8 weeks. So a newbie aquarist
is supposed to do this every day for 4-8 weeks?!?! This is why I say
it's for rocket scientists only.

It's perfectly okay if Bio-Spira functions successfully as a seeding
medium for beneficial bacteria. You haven't supplied any link to an
independent laboratory which has thoroughly tested the product
independently of the manufacturer, and the results show that the
aquarium is "CYCLED", period, after 24 hours, so just dump in a full
complement of fish. Your Aquarium Corner link calls this claim an
exaggeration. You also seem not to be aware that this Bio-Spira
appears to not be available everywhere on planet Earth at all times,
so some people will probably never be able to find it anyway. Some
places it would also be very expensive, the price given on your link
was $10 for enough for a 30 gallon tank I think. Where I live this
would cost $50, as fish food, meds, test kits, small equipment like
airstones, thermometers etc. cost 5 times more than in the States. Oh,
I know what I can do! If I start up a new tank I can seed it with
water from my established tank or some gravel, or the filter media
from my established filter goes in the new filter. Then I start with
just a few fish, after some weeks, add a few more, a couple more
weeks, a couple more fish, etc. Problem solved.

-Derek

[Rick]

All right you two! Off to your romms without dinner! And you're both
grounded for a week with no TV!


"Derek W. Benson" > wrote in message
...
> On 16 Sep 2005 14:18:58 -0700, "Tynk" > wrote:
>
>>The rest of the link, not the Marineland one, were to show you that
>>yes, ammonia levels do in fact burn gill tissue when a fish is used for
>>cycling. I had thought that you were saying all along that this wasn't
>>true (as you have said in your other posts).
>
> I haven't said anywhere that "This Isn't true!!" you arrogant moron.
> Yes it can happen if the aquarist is a complete idiot. What you have
> insisted upon is that EVERY FISH will have it's gills burnt to blazes
> if you put it in a new unestablished tank. So this is millions and
> tens of millions of fish throughout the years. Ammonia poisoning and
> nitrite poisoning in a new tank can be avoided, it's really no
> problem.
>
>>I can see from your reply that you simply want to argue and and argue
>>which I will not. I don't care to waste my time on such a fool anymore.
>>I have used Bio Spira myself many times now.
>>I've personally seen it work with my own eyes. When I purchased a new
>>75g, I filled it, added Bio Spira and added 4, (4" diameter body
>>size)Angelfish and all my females Bettas. That's fully stocked, if not
>>overstocked.
>>It worked! Being in the hobby for so long this was SO wrong to me. The
>>only reason I even tried it was because I had the recommendations from
>>several highly qualified aquarists. I couldn't believe my own tests. It
>>works and the only way you're going to be convinced is if you try it
>>yourself. However, being closed minded and set in your ways, I highly
>>doubt you will. How sad for your fish.
>
> The chances are extremely minimal that I could ever find Bio-Spira
> where I live. I have never seen any of my "cycling fish" get burned
> away from ammonia or anything else, although when I was a kid or
> teenager this could of course have happened without my knowing what
> was going on; I can't recall specifically every single "new tank fish"
> that I purchased 35 years ago or 40 years ago. There isn't anything
> sad about my fish at all, they're perfectly healthy and happy. You
> imply that because I didn't start up my current tank 5 years ago with
> Bio-Spira that all my fish are doomed to destruction, all my fish have
> had their gills burned away. You're ridiculous and foolish.
>
>>Not too long ago a female Betta showed symptoms of TB. Sure enough,
>>other fish started showing typical symptoms so I waited for them to go
>>on their own, and had to euthanize the ones that were suffering from
>>lesions.
>>I bleached the tank and restarted using Bio Spira again. Same results.
>>Cycled in 24 hours. I now use it in all the single male Betta 1 gal's
>>with their weekly 100% water changes, and on all 3 Eclipse 3 tanks when
>>they were set up as well..also when I recently switched all the gravel
>>in every one of my other 9 tanks (not including the 75g). Again....no
>>bacteria blooms, just a perfectly cycled tank. Obviously no amount of
>>convincing from anyone who had used it will convince you otherwise, and
>>I even bet if you actually tried it, you'd lie and say it didn't work
>>out of spite.
>>I can have countless people email you if you'd like with their results
>>as well.
>
> Whatever you do, don't do this. I'm not interested in any e-mail
> penpals supplied by you or anyone else on this group. If Bio-Spira
> works fine as a seeding medium for beneficial bacteria, fine, good for
> it.
>
>>I'm guessing you think I'm the only one in the world besides Marineland
>>that claims this works, and has used it.
>>Of course Marnineland is the only company right now with this
>>product....they put the money into the research, they found that :
>><< "Therefore, the results show that Nitrobacter and its close
>>relatives are not the nitrite-oxidizing bacteria in aquarium filters.
>>Rather that job is done by Nitrospira-like bacteria. ">>
>>They have a patent on it and until it's runs out, no other company can
>>make it.
>>(great for Marineland, but sucks for us...the consumer).
>>Your main argument with me has been over the ammonia levels burning the
>>gill tissue. All but the first link, were to show you examples to back
>>up what I'm saying...cycling with fish can cause cause burnt gill
>>tissue...hence the reason for using Bio Spira in the first place.
>>The link for Bio Spira was so you can read for yourself.
>>The more I read from you the more I'm starting to feel sorry for you.
>>So much anger, resentment, disbelief, bitterness, lashing out, and for
>>what? Simply to argue. Test it out for yourself. Are you afraid of
>>finding out that you were wrong? If not....try it out. Just don't use
>>any ammonia neutralizing dechlorinators, as it messes up the Bio Spira.
>>StressCoat or NovAqua would do fine to name a couple.
>
> I have wasted my time replying to you because I think you're spewing
> out disinformation. Another example is your insistence that fish in
> stores are always going to be sick, as if the majority of fish in all
> stores on planet Earth are carrying illnesses. Thorough baloney.
> Anyone with minimal experience can study the fish in a store for
> awhile and determine if the fish appear to be healthy. USUALLY, if the
> fish one is considering purchasing shows no sign of illness at the
> store, it has no illness. The VAST MAJORITY of fish I've ever
> purchased which have appeared to be healthy, have, lo and behold!,
> been healthy after I bring them home. What a surprise! (To some people
> at least.)
>
> I've read all your supplied links, so you can now do some research
> which I suggest to you. Look through all the previous threads in this
> group which are there in your newsreader. Read all the threads started
> by Connie. Connie has started up her tank twice in recent months by
> "fishless cycling" her tank. Both times her fish were wiped out
> afterwards by ammonia spikes and/or nitrite spikes which occurred
> after her tank was finished "cyclig". She wasn't using Bio-Spira to my
> knowledge, she was "cycling" her tank with liquid ammonia. It is
> because people have experiences like Connie's that I am against
> anything having to do with supposed "fishless cycling" of an aquarium.
> One of the links you supplied, Aquarium Corner I think, has a
> description of cycling with ammonia. Add a specific amount of ammonia,
> test for ammonia the next day, depending on this level you add some
> more ammonia, do this every day for many days, oh and you also have to
> start testing for nitrite I think it said. At the end the author says
> to be aware that the process can take 4-8 weeks. So a newbie aquarist
> is supposed to do this every day for 4-8 weeks?!?! This is why I say
> it's for rocket scientists only.
>
> It's perfectly okay if Bio-Spira functions successfully as a seeding
> medium for beneficial bacteria. You haven't supplied any link to an
> independent laboratory which has thoroughly tested the product
> independently of the manufacturer, and the results show that the
> aquarium is "CYCLED", period, after 24 hours, so just dump in a full
> complement of fish. Your Aquarium Corner link calls this claim an
> exaggeration. You also seem not to be aware that this Bio-Spira
> appears to not be available everywhere on planet Earth at all times,
> so some people will probably never be able to find it anyway. Some
> places it would also be very expensive, the price given on your link
> was $10 for enough for a 30 gallon tank I think. Where I live this
> would cost $50, as fish food, meds, test kits, small equipment like
> airstones, thermometers etc. cost 5 times more than in the States. Oh,
> I know what I can do! If I start up a new tank I can seed it with
> water from my established tank or some gravel, or the filter media
> from my established filter goes in the new filter. Then I start with
> just a few fish, after some weeks, add a few more, a couple more
> weeks, a couple more fish, etc. Problem solved.
>
> -Derek

[Tynk]

Derek W. Benson wrote:
> On 16 Sep 2005 14:18:58 -0700, "Tynk" > wrote:
>
> >The rest of the link, not the Marineland one, were to show you that
> >yes, ammonia levels do in fact burn gill tissue when a fish is used for
> >cycling. I had thought that you were saying all along that this wasn't
> >true (as you have said in your other posts).
>
> I haven't said anywhere that "This Isn't true!!" you arrogant moron.
> Yes it can happen if the aquarist is a complete idiot. What you have
> insisted upon is that EVERY FISH will have it's gills burnt to blazes
> if you put it in a new unestablished tank. So this is millions and
> tens of millions of fish throughout the years. Ammonia poisoning and
> nitrite poisoning in a new tank can be avoided, it's really no
> problem.
>
> >I can see from your reply that you simply want to argue and and argue
> >which I will not. I don't care to waste my time on such a fool anymore.
> >I have used Bio Spira myself many times now.
> >I've personally seen it work with my own eyes. When I purchased a new
> >75g, I filled it, added Bio Spira and added 4, (4" diameter body
> >size)Angelfish and all my females Bettas. That's fully stocked, if not
> >overstocked.
> >It worked! Being in the hobby for so long this was SO wrong to me. The
> >only reason I even tried it was because I had the recommendations from
> >several highly qualified aquarists. I couldn't believe my own tests. It
> >works and the only way you're going to be convinced is if you try it
> >yourself. However, being closed minded and set in your ways, I highly
> >doubt you will. How sad for your fish.
>
> The chances are extremely minimal that I could ever find Bio-Spira
> where I live. I have never seen any of my "cycling fish" get burned
> away from ammonia or anything else, although when I was a kid or
> teenager this could of course have happened without my knowing what
> was going on; I can't recall specifically every single "new tank fish"
> that I purchased 35 years ago or 40 years ago. There isn't anything
> sad about my fish at all, they're perfectly healthy and happy. You
> imply that because I didn't start up my current tank 5 years ago with
> Bio-Spira that all my fish are doomed to destruction, all my fish have
> had their gills burned away. You're ridiculous and foolish.
>
> >Not too long ago a female Betta showed symptoms of TB. Sure enough,
> >other fish started showing typical symptoms so I waited for them to go
> >on their own, and had to euthanize the ones that were suffering from
> >lesions.
> >I bleached the tank and restarted using Bio Spira again. Same results.
> >Cycled in 24 hours. I now use it in all the single male Betta 1 gal's
> >with their weekly 100% water changes, and on all 3 Eclipse 3 tanks when
> >they were set up as well..also when I recently switched all the gravel
> >in every one of my other 9 tanks (not including the 75g). Again....no
> >bacteria blooms, just a perfectly cycled tank. Obviously no amount of
> >convincing from anyone who had used it will convince you otherwise, and
> >I even bet if you actually tried it, you'd lie and say it didn't work
> >out of spite.
> >I can have countless people email you if you'd like with their results
> >as well.
>
> Whatever you do, don't do this. I'm not interested in any e-mail
> penpals supplied by you or anyone else on this group. If Bio-Spira
> works fine as a seeding medium for beneficial bacteria, fine, good for
> it.
>
> >I'm guessing you think I'm the only one in the world besides Marineland
> >that claims this works, and has used it.
> >Of course Marnineland is the only company right now with this
> >product....they put the money into the research, they found that :
> ><< "Therefore, the results show that Nitrobacter and its close
> >relatives are not the nitrite-oxidizing bacteria in aquarium filters.
> >Rather that job is done by Nitrospira-like bacteria. ">>
> >They have a patent on it and until it's runs out, no other company can
> >make it.
> >(great for Marineland, but sucks for us...the consumer).
> >Your main argument with me has been over the ammonia levels burning the
> >gill tissue. All but the first link, were to show you examples to back
> >up what I'm saying...cycling with fish can cause cause burnt gill
> >tissue...hence the reason for using Bio Spira in the first place.
> >The link for Bio Spira was so you can read for yourself.
> >The more I read from you the more I'm starting to feel sorry for you.
> >So much anger, resentment, disbelief, bitterness, lashing out, and for
> >what? Simply to argue. Test it out for yourself. Are you afraid of
> >finding out that you were wrong? If not....try it out. Just don't use
> >any ammonia neutralizing dechlorinators, as it messes up the Bio Spira.
> >StressCoat or NovAqua would do fine to name a couple.
>
> I have wasted my time replying to you because I think you're spewing
> out disinformation. Another example is your insistence that fish in
> stores are always going to be sick, as if the majority of fish in all
> stores on planet Earth are carrying illnesses. Thorough baloney.
> Anyone with minimal experience can study the fish in a store for
> awhile and determine if the fish appear to be healthy. USUALLY, if the
> fish one is considering purchasing shows no sign of illness at the
> store, it has no illness. The VAST MAJORITY of fish I've ever
> purchased which have appeared to be healthy, have, lo and behold!,
> been healthy after I bring them home. What a surprise! (To some people
> at least.)
>
> I've read all your supplied links, so you can now do some research
> which I suggest to you. Look through all the previous threads in this
> group which are there in your newsreader. Read all the threads started
> by Connie. Connie has started up her tank twice in recent months by
> "fishless cycling" her tank. Both times her fish were wiped out
> afterwards by ammonia spikes and/or nitrite spikes which occurred
> after her tank was finished "cyclig". She wasn't using Bio-Spira to my
> knowledge, she was "cycling" her tank with liquid ammonia. It is
> because people have experiences like Connie's that I am against
> anything having to do with supposed "fishless cycling" of an aquarium.
> One of the links you supplied, Aquarium Corner I think, has a
> description of cycling with ammonia. Add a specific amount of ammonia,
> test for ammonia the next day, depending on this level you add some
> more ammonia, do this every day for many days, oh and you also have to
> start testing for nitrite I think it said. At the end the author says
> to be aware that the process can take 4-8 weeks. So a newbie aquarist
> is supposed to do this every day for 4-8 weeks?!?! This is why I say
> it's for rocket scientists only.
>
> It's perfectly okay if Bio-Spira functions successfully as a seeding
> medium for beneficial bacteria. You haven't supplied any link to an
> independent laboratory which has thoroughly tested the product
> independently of the manufacturer, and the results show that the
> aquarium is "CYCLED", period, after 24 hours, so just dump in a full
> complement of fish. Your Aquarium Corner link calls this claim an
> exaggeration. You also seem not to be aware that this Bio-Spira
> appears to not be available everywhere on planet Earth at all times,
> so some people will probably never be able to find it anyway. Some
> places it would also be very expensive, the price given on your link
> was $10 for enough for a 30 gallon tank I think. Where I live this
> would cost $50, as fish food, meds, test kits, small equipment like
> airstones, thermometers etc. cost 5 times more than in the States. Oh,
> I know what I can do! If I start up a new tank I can seed it with
> water from my established tank or some gravel, or the filter media
> from my established filter goes in the new filter. Then I start with
> just a few fish, after some weeks, add a few more, a couple more
> weeks, a couple more fish, etc. Problem solved.
>
> -Derek

You
> imply that because I didn't start up my current tank 5 years ago with
> Bio-Spira that all my fish are doomed to destruction, all my fish have
> had their gills burned away. You're ridiculous and foolish.
>
Nope. I did not say that.
It easy for a seasoned aquarist to properly cycle a tank using fish and
doing large water changes to make sure the fish's gills aren't being
burned by ammonia.
Never once have I ever saied their gills were burned away. Again
outright lying. I don't get that. You change or exaggerate what I have
said and then claim I have said it. You need to stop doing that. It
makes you look foolish and mean.
The entire point of this thread was to help a beginner, not an
experienced hobbyist. You jumped on advice to a newbie, which needs to
be a little different.

> >The rest of the link, not the Marineland one, were to show you that
> >yes, ammonia levels do in fact burn gill tissue when a fish is used for
> >cycling. I had thought that you were saying all along that this wasn't
> >true (as you have said in your other posts).
>
> I haven't said anywhere that "This Isn't true!!" you arrogant moron.
> Yes it can happen if the aquarist is a complete idiot.

So, you never went off on me saying that high ammonia levels do not
burn gill tissue? Not once? Again you resort to name calling. That's so
childish.

> I have wasted my time replying to you because I think you're spewing
> out disinformation. Another example is your insistence that fish in
> stores are always going to be sick, as if the majority of fish in all
> stores on planet Earth are carrying illnesses. Thorough baloney.

I have asked repeatedly for you to prove me wrong. You have not. All
you can do is toss out nasty comments and call names.
I never, that's NEVER said ALL fish in shops are carrying diseases. I
did, however, say that you need to THINK that they are and therefore a
quarantine tank should be used (unless it's a newly set up tank).
Again you claim that anyone can look at a fish and see if they're
healthy or not. What a bunch of crap!
You cannot see a virus.
You cannot see internal parasites.
You cannot see bacterial infections that haven't showed outward
symnptoms yet.
You cannot see all parasites.
You cannot see dieases that have a longer gestation period than
something with instant outward signs.
There are countless diseases and parasites that do not have outward
symptoms at all, or are delayed in showing up.
What you are saying is very, very wrong, and quite irresponsible.

[[email protected]]

I can only asume by the responces to TYNK . 1 you are simpistic
butthead. 2 you have now intent on helping begginers with starting they
tanks. and 3 all you are here for is to start a fight.
1 Tynk is rite on the fact that a quarintine tank is essencial for any
serious hobbeist. It will not only redude drematicaly the chance of an
infection in your main ( show tank) . It will give the chance to see if
the fish is truely healthy by giving it time to jestate anything it may
or may not have.
2 spyro is a good and easy way for the beginner to get started. It does
help and if used properly it will speed up the cycle of the tank and
provide a good starting point of bennificial bacteria in the tank.
3 I also agree to the point that I personly use a cheap fish or two .
Depending on the size of the tank to start the cycle.
If a person is intrested in doing it the natral way the fish method
is the best method. I am not one to push mother nature into a "rushed"
cycle .As this is not how it happens in the raw ( so to speak). I have
been in the hobby for almost 27 years now and I am fairly sure I have
found that the natral way is best. I have also found that in a fresh
water inviroment. It is ok to force the cycle ( using spyro).
Now as to cycling the tank. I would chose your way and then do a 25 %
water change about every 10 to 14 days .As when you do a water change
it will effect the BB ( bennificial bacteria) that you are trying so
hard to grow.
I would cyle for 30 to 45 days to make sure the water is of very good
quality before strting to add spendy fish.
I aslo would recomend testing your water once a week to make sure you
have a good quality water.
Then and ONLY THEN can you be sure your tank is healthy.
Once again I cannot stress enough the importance of a quaritine tank to
keep an eye on the fish for the safty of your show tank.

JC
210 reef
2 x planted 29 tall fresh tanks
1 non-planted custom 33 half hex breeding tank
Tynk wrote:
> Derek W. Benson wrote:
> > On 16 Sep 2005 14:18:58 -0700, "Tynk" > wrote:
> >
> > >The rest of the link, not the Marineland one, were to show you that
> > >yes, ammonia levels do in fact burn gill tissue when a fish is used for
> > >cycling. I had thought that you were saying all along that this wasn't
> > >true (as you have said in your other posts).
> >
> > I haven't said anywhere that "This Isn't true!!" you arrogant moron.
> > Yes it can happen if the aquarist is a complete idiot. What you have
> > insisted upon is that EVERY FISH will have it's gills burnt to blazes
> > if you put it in a new unestablished tank. So this is millions and
> > tens of millions of fish throughout the years. Ammonia poisoning and
> > nitrite poisoning in a new tank can be avoided, it's really no
> > problem.
> >
> > >I can see from your reply that you simply want to argue and and argue
> > >which I will not. I don't care to waste my time on such a fool anymore.
> > >I have used Bio Spira myself many times now.
> > >I've personally seen it work with my own eyes. When I purchased a new
> > >75g, I filled it, added Bio Spira and added 4, (4" diameter body
> > >size)Angelfish and all my females Bettas. That's fully stocked, if not
> > >overstocked.
> > >It worked! Being in the hobby for so long this was SO wrong to me. The
> > >only reason I even tried it was because I had the recommendations from
> > >several highly qualified aquarists. I couldn't believe my own tests. It
> > >works and the only way you're going to be convinced is if you try it
> > >yourself. However, being closed minded and set in your ways, I highly
> > >doubt you will. How sad for your fish.
> >
> > The chances are extremely minimal that I could ever find Bio-Spira
> > where I live. I have never seen any of my "cycling fish" get burned
> > away from ammonia or anything else, although when I was a kid or
> > teenager this could of course have happened without my knowing what
> > was going on; I can't recall specifically every single "new tank fish"
> > that I purchased 35 years ago or 40 years ago. There isn't anything
> > sad about my fish at all, they're perfectly healthy and happy. You
> > imply that because I didn't start up my current tank 5 years ago with
> > Bio-Spira that all my fish are doomed to destruction, all my fish have
> > had their gills burned away. You're ridiculous and foolish.
> >
> > >Not too long ago a female Betta showed symptoms of TB. Sure enough,
> > >other fish started showing typical symptoms so I waited for them to go
> > >on their own, and had to euthanize the ones that were suffering from
> > >lesions.
> > >I bleached the tank and restarted using Bio Spira again. Same results.
> > >Cycled in 24 hours. I now use it in all the single male Betta 1 gal's
> > >with their weekly 100% water changes, and on all 3 Eclipse 3 tanks when
> > >they were set up as well..also when I recently switched all the gravel
> > >in every one of my other 9 tanks (not including the 75g). Again....no
> > >bacteria blooms, just a perfectly cycled tank. Obviously no amount of
> > >convincing from anyone who had used it will convince you otherwise, and
> > >I even bet if you actually tried it, you'd lie and say it didn't work
> > >out of spite.
> > >I can have countless people email you if you'd like with their results
> > >as well.
> >
> > Whatever you do, don't do this. I'm not interested in any e-mail
> > penpals supplied by you or anyone else on this group. If Bio-Spira
> > works fine as a seeding medium for beneficial bacteria, fine, good for
> > it.
> >
> > >I'm guessing you think I'm the only one in the world besides Marineland
> > >that claims this works, and has used it.
> > >Of course Marnineland is the only company right now with this
> > >product....they put the money into the research, they found that :
> > ><< "Therefore, the results show that Nitrobacter and its close
> > >relatives are not the nitrite-oxidizing bacteria in aquarium filters.
> > >Rather that job is done by Nitrospira-like bacteria. ">>
> > >They have a patent on it and until it's runs out, no other company can
> > >make it.
> > >(great for Marineland, but sucks for us...the consumer).
> > >Your main argument with me has been over the ammonia levels burning the
> > >gill tissue. All but the first link, were to show you examples to back
> > >up what I'm saying...cycling with fish can cause cause burnt gill
> > >tissue...hence the reason for using Bio Spira in the first place.
> > >The link for Bio Spira was so you can read for yourself.
> > >The more I read from you the more I'm starting to feel sorry for you.
> > >So much anger, resentment, disbelief, bitterness, lashing out, and for
> > >what? Simply to argue. Test it out for yourself. Are you afraid of
> > >finding out that you were wrong? If not....try it out. Just don't use
> > >any ammonia neutralizing dechlorinators, as it messes up the Bio Spira.
> > >StressCoat or NovAqua would do fine to name a couple.
> >
> > I have wasted my time replying to you because I think you're spewing
> > out disinformation. Another example is your insistence that fish in
> > stores are always going to be sick, as if the majority of fish in all
> > stores on planet Earth are carrying illnesses. Thorough baloney.
> > Anyone with minimal experience can study the fish in a store for
> > awhile and determine if the fish appear to be healthy. USUALLY, if the
> > fish one is considering purchasing shows no sign of illness at the
> > store, it has no illness. The VAST MAJORITY of fish I've ever
> > purchased which have appeared to be healthy, have, lo and behold!,
> > been healthy after I bring them home. What a surprise! (To some people
> > at least.)
> >
> > I've read all your supplied links, so you can now do some research
> > which I suggest to you. Look through all the previous threads in this
> > group which are there in your newsreader. Read all the threads started
> > by Connie. Connie has started up her tank twice in recent months by
> > "fishless cycling" her tank. Both times her fish were wiped out
> > afterwards by ammonia spikes and/or nitrite spikes which occurred
> > after her tank was finished "cyclig". She wasn't using Bio-Spira to my
> > knowledge, she was "cycling" her tank with liquid ammonia. It is
> > because people have experiences like Connie's that I am against
> > anything having to do with supposed "fishless cycling" of an aquarium.
> > One of the links you supplied, Aquarium Corner I think, has a
> > description of cycling with ammonia. Add a specific amount of ammonia,
> > test for ammonia the next day, depending on this level you add some
> > more ammonia, do this every day for many days, oh and you also have to
> > start testing for nitrite I think it said. At the end the author says
> > to be aware that the process can take 4-8 weeks. So a newbie aquarist
> > is supposed to do this every day for 4-8 weeks?!?! This is why I say
> > it's for rocket scientists only.
> >
> > It's perfectly okay if Bio-Spira functions successfully as a seeding
> > medium for beneficial bacteria. You haven't supplied any link to an
> > independent laboratory which has thoroughly tested the product
> > independently of the manufacturer, and the results show that the
> > aquarium is "CYCLED", period, after 24 hours, so just dump in a full
> > complement of fish. Your Aquarium Corner link calls this claim an
> > exaggeration. You also seem not to be aware that this Bio-Spira
> > appears to not be available everywhere on planet Earth at all times,
> > so some people will probably never be able to find it anyway. Some
> > places it would also be very expensive, the price given on your link
> > was $10 for enough for a 30 gallon tank I think. Where I live this
> > would cost $50, as fish food, meds, test kits, small equipment like
> > airstones, thermometers etc. cost 5 times more than in the States. Oh,
> > I know what I can do! If I start up a new tank I can seed it with
> > water from my established tank or some gravel, or the filter media
> > from my established filter goes in the new filter. Then I start with
> > just a few fish, after some weeks, add a few more, a couple more
> > weeks, a couple more fish, etc. Problem solved.
> >
> > -Derek
>
> You
> > imply that because I didn't start up my current tank 5 years ago with
> > Bio-Spira that all my fish are doomed to destruction, all my fish have
> > had their gills burned away. You're ridiculous and foolish.
> >
> Nope. I did not say that.
> It easy for a seasoned aquarist to properly cycle a tank using fish and
> doing large water changes to make sure the fish's gills aren't being
> burned by ammonia.
> Never once have I ever saied their gills were burned away. Again
> outright lying. I don't get that. You change or exaggerate what I have
> said and then claim I have said it. You need to stop doing that. It
> makes you look foolish and mean.
> The entire point of this thread was to help a beginner, not an
> experienced hobbyist. You jumped on advice to a newbie, which needs to
> be a little different.
>
> > >The rest of the link, not the Marineland one, were to show you that
> > >yes, ammonia levels do in fact burn gill tissue when a fish is used for
> > >cycling. I had thought that you were saying all along that this wasn't
> > >true (as you have said in your other posts).
> >
> > I haven't said anywhere that "This Isn't true!!" you arrogant moron.
> > Yes it can happen if the aquarist is a complete idiot.
>
> So, you never went off on me saying that high ammonia levels do not
> burn gill tissue? Not once? Again you resort to name calling. That's so
> childish.
>
> > I have wasted my time replying to you because I think you're spewing
> > out disinformation. Another example is your insistence that fish in
> > stores are always going to be sick, as if the majority of fish in all
> > stores on planet Earth are carrying illnesses. Thorough baloney.
>
> I have asked repeatedly for you to prove me wrong. You have not. All
> you can do is toss out nasty comments and call names.
> I never, that's NEVER said ALL fish in shops are carrying diseases. I
> did, however, say that you need to THINK that they are and therefore a
> quarantine tank should be used (unless it's a newly set up tank).
> Again you claim that anyone can look at a fish and see if they're
> healthy or not. What a bunch of crap!
> You cannot see a virus.
> You cannot see internal parasites.
> You cannot see bacterial infections that haven't showed outward
> symnptoms yet.
> You cannot see all parasites.
> You cannot see dieases that have a longer gestation period than
> something with instant outward signs.
> There are countless diseases and parasites that do not have outward
> symptoms at all, or are delayed in showing up.
> What you are saying is very, very wrong, and quite irresponsible.

[creationsNmotion]

why not just get a spitoon and throw your $ in there.
YES you need a quarentine tank. unless you like getting attached to
fish then bringing in some bug you cannot see thats in the belly of a
new fish and in a few days your favorite fish is floating ass end up
and your ****ed off.
gawd they let any punkass post on here i guess

[creationsNmotion]

DEREK,
I'M ABSOLUTELY POSITIVE YOUR AN ASSHOLE. YOU PROBABLY BEAT YOUR SELF
AND YOUR WIFE ALL IN 3 MINUTES, THIS IS WHY YOU HAVE A NEED TO BEAT UP
ON A WOMAN YOU'VE NEVER MET IN PERSON, GET A LIFE AND GO SUCK ON A BAR
OF SOAP FOR THAT TRASH MOUTH YOU HAVE.
I'D NEVER TAKE ADVICE FROM SUCH A NEANDERTHAL FOOL LIKE YOU, FOLKS
BEWARE!!!

[Steve]

creationsNmotion wrote:
> why not just get a spitoon and throw your $ in there.
> YES you need a quarentine tank. unless you like getting attached to
> fish then bringing in some bug you cannot see thats in the belly of a
> new fish and in a few days your favorite fish is floating ass end up
> and your ****ed off.
> gawd they let any punkass post on here i guess
>

Mr/ Ms creations,
Why not contribute constructively to the group?

The original poster was a new aquarist about to purchase his/her first
20 gallon aquarium. Derek suggested planting the aquarium, and cycling
it with a few zebra danios. He also suggested that the original poster
did not need to also set up a separate quarantine tank at first. Aren't
these are common sense suggestions for a new hobbyist?

Can you suggest a simpler, more reliable way to start up one's first
aquarium?

Steve

[lgb]

In article om>,
says...

<snip of profane spew>

Ah, well. Another troller for the bozo bin.

At least I hope he's a troller, otherwise he needs to get back on his
meds :-).

--
BNSF = Build Now, Seep Forever

[Elaine T]

creationsNmotion wrote:
> why not just get a spitoon and throw your $ in there.
> YES you need a quarentine tank. unless you like getting attached to
> fish then bringing in some bug you cannot see thats in the belly of a
> new fish and in a few days your favorite fish is floating ass end up
> and your ****ed off.
> gawd they let any punkass post on here i guess
>
Yep. Including punkasses like you. <plonk>

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Tynk]

creationsNmotion wrote:
> DEREK,
> I'M ABSOLUTELY POSITIVE YOUR AN ASSHOLE. YOU PROBABLY BEAT YOUR SELF
> AND YOUR WIFE ALL IN 3 MINUTES, THIS IS WHY YOU HAVE A NEED TO BEAT UP
> ON A WOMAN YOU'VE NEVER MET IN PERSON, GET A LIFE AND GO SUCK ON A BAR
> OF SOAP FOR THAT TRASH MOUTH YOU HAVE.
> I'D NEVER TAKE ADVICE FROM SUCH A NEANDERTHAL FOOL LIKE YOU, FOLKS
> BEWARE!!!

OH MY = O

[Tynk]

Steve wrote:
> creationsNmotion wrote:
> > why not just get a spitoon and throw your $ in there.
> > YES you need a quarentine tank. unless you like getting attached to
> > fish then bringing in some bug you cannot see thats in the belly of a
> > new fish and in a few days your favorite fish is floating ass end up
> > and your ****ed off.
> > gawd they let any punkass post on here i guess
> >
>
> Mr/ Ms creations,
> Why not contribute constructively to the group?
>
> The original poster was a new aquarist about to purchase his/her first
> 20 gallon aquarium. Derek suggested planting the aquarium, and cycling
> it with a few zebra danios. He also suggested that the original poster
> did not need to also set up a separate quarantine tank at first. Aren't
> these are common sense suggestions for a new hobbyist?
>
> Can you suggest a simpler, more reliable way to start up one's first
> aquarium?
>
> Steve

He also suggested that the original poster
> did not need to also set up a separate quarantine tank at first. Aren't
> these are common sense suggestions for a new hobbyist?
>
Well...he did go on about never needing a quarantine tank and that I
had a big problem with.
Being a first tank..it *is* esentially a quarantine tank.
After it's established is when you would qurantine any new arrivals.
That, is sound advice, not bunk as Mr. Benson suggested.

[NetMax]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
. ..
> creationsNmotion wrote:
>> why not just get a spitoon and throw your $ in there.
>> YES you need a quarentine tank. unless you like getting attached to
>> fish then bringing in some bug you cannot see thats in the belly of a
>> new fish and in a few days your favorite fish is floating ass end up
>> and your ****ed off. gawd they let any punkass post on here i guess
>>
> Yep. Including punkasses like you. <plonk>
>
> --
> Elaine T


temper temper, I've never seen this side of you Elaine ;~)
--
www.NetMax.tk

[bassett]

Might be the Full Moon, or PMT . Nurrrrrr, She's just letting of a bit of
steam.

bassett

"NetMax" > wrote in message
..> temper temper, I've never seen this side of you Elaine ;~)
> --
> www.NetMax.tk.

> "Elaine T" > wrote in message
> . ..
>> creationsNmotion wrote:
>>> why not just get a spitoon and throw your $ in there.
>>> YES you need a quarentine tank. unless you like getting attached to
>>> fish then bringing in some bug you cannot see thats in the belly of a
>>> new fish and in a few days your favorite fish is floating ass end up
>>> and your ****ed off. gawd they let any punkass post on here i guess
>>>
>> Yep. Including punkasses like you. <plonk>
>>
>> --
>> Elaine T
>
>

>
>

[Elaine T]

NetMax wrote:
> "Elaine T" > wrote in message
> . ..
>
>>creationsNmotion wrote:
>>
>>>why not just get a spitoon and throw your $ in there.
>>>YES you need a quarentine tank. unless you like getting attached to
>>>fish then bringing in some bug you cannot see thats in the belly of a
>>>new fish and in a few days your favorite fish is floating ass end up
>>>and your ****ed off. gawd they let any punkass post on here i guess
>>>
>>
>>Yep. Including punkasses like you. <plonk>
>>
>>--
>>Elaine T
>
>
>
> temper temper, I've never seen this side of you Elaine ;~)

Hee, hee! Sure you have. I've gone the rounds with Derek just like
everyone else here. ;-) But seriously, when a person's first two posts
are abusive and profane, why read more? Life is far too short.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Gill Passman]

Elaine T wrote:
> NetMax wrote:
>
>> "Elaine T" > wrote in message
>> . ..
>>
>>> creationsNmotion wrote:
>>>
>>>> why not just get a spitoon and throw your $ in there.
>>>> YES you need a quarentine tank. unless you like getting attached to
>>>> fish then bringing in some bug you cannot see thats in the belly of a
>>>> new fish and in a few days your favorite fish is floating ass end up
>>>> and your ****ed off. gawd they let any punkass post on here i guess
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yep. Including punkasses like you. <plonk>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Elaine T
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> temper temper, I've never seen this side of you Elaine ;~)
>
>
> Hee, hee! Sure you have. I've gone the rounds with Derek just like
> everyone else here. ;-) But seriously, when a person's first two posts
> are abusive and profane, why read more? Life is far too short.
>
couldn't agree with you more on life being too short - the whole of
rec.ponds sadly now has gone plonk - lots of good people there but when
I changed my reader I just couldn't be bothered to go through the whole
kill file thing again....

Gill

[NetMax]

"Gill Passman" > wrote in message
.. .
> Elaine T wrote:
>> NetMax wrote:
>>
>>> "Elaine T" > wrote in message
>>> . ..
>>>
>>>> creationsNmotion wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> why not just get a spitoon and throw your $ in there.
>>>>> YES you need a quarentine tank. unless you like getting attached to
>>>>> fish then bringing in some bug you cannot see thats in the belly of
>>>>> a
>>>>> new fish and in a few days your favorite fish is floating ass end
>>>>> up
>>>>> and your ****ed off. gawd they let any punkass post on here i guess
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yep. Including punkasses like you. <plonk>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Elaine T
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> temper temper, I've never seen this side of you Elaine ;~)
>>
>>
>> Hee, hee! Sure you have. I've gone the rounds with Derek just like
>> everyone else here. ;-) But seriously, when a person's first two
>> posts are abusive and profane, why read more? Life is far too short.
>>
> couldn't agree with you more on life being too short - the whole of
> rec.ponds sadly now has gone plonk - lots of good people there but when
> I changed my reader I just couldn't be bothered to go through the whole
> kill file thing again....
>
> Gill


lol, my plonk file is empty, but I haven't been on Usenet as long as
Elaine.

I know the grief of resetting your newsreader! Almost makes one give up
on Usenet.
Some rec.ponds's posters are trying to re-organize under a google group,
http://groups.google.com/group/The_Pond
They seem to have a bit of traffic, 40-50 posts so far. You need to
register as it's a moderated group. Pity the poor soul who wanders into
rec.ponds now that the sympathetic ponders are all gone ;~).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[2pods]

, my plonk file is empty, but I haven't been on Usenet as long as
> Elaine.
>
> I know the grief of resetting your newsreader! Almost makes one give up
> on Usenet.
> Some rec.ponds's posters are trying to re-organize under a google group,
> http://groups.google.com/group/The_Pond
> They seem to have a bit of traffic, 40-50 posts so far. You need to
> register as it's a moderated group. Pity the poor soul who wanders into
> rec.ponds now that the sympathetic ponders are all gone ;~).
> --
> www.NetMax.tk
Not everyone has gone from rec.ponds, but it is a pain wading through all
the c**p to get to the odd pond post.

I find the Google group thing annoying; adverts every two posts or so.
I'm a member of a Lowden guitar Google group and have settled for taking the
daily digest.

Peter

[Gill Passman]

NetMax wrote:
> "Gill Passman" > wrote in message
> .. .
>
>>Elaine T wrote:
>>
>>>NetMax wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>"Elaine T" > wrote in message
. ..
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>creationsNmotion wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>why not just get a spitoon and throw your $ in there.
>>>>>>YES you need a quarentine tank. unless you like getting attached to
>>>>>>fish then bringing in some bug you cannot see thats in the belly of
>>>>>>a
>>>>>>new fish and in a few days your favorite fish is floating ass end
>>>>>>up
>>>>>>and your ****ed off. gawd they let any punkass post on here i guess
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Yep. Including punkasses like you. <plonk>
>>>>>
>>>>>--
>>>>>Elaine T
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>temper temper, I've never seen this side of you Elaine ;~)
>>>
>>>
>>>Hee, hee! Sure you have. I've gone the rounds with Derek just like
>>>everyone else here. ;-) But seriously, when a person's first two
>>>posts are abusive and profane, why read more? Life is far too short.
>>>
>>
>>couldn't agree with you more on life being too short - the whole of
>>rec.ponds sadly now has gone plonk - lots of good people there but when
>>I changed my reader I just couldn't be bothered to go through the whole
>>kill file thing again....
>>
>>Gill
>
>
>
> lol, my plonk file is empty, but I haven't been on Usenet as long as
> Elaine.
>
> I know the grief of resetting your newsreader! Almost makes one give up
> on Usenet.
> Some rec.ponds's posters are trying to re-organize under a google group,
> http://groups.google.com/group/The_Pond
> They seem to have a bit of traffic, 40-50 posts so far. You need to
> register as it's a moderated group. Pity the poor soul who wanders into
> rec.ponds now that the sympathetic ponders are all gone ;~).


Know what you mean. At some point I'll sign on for this group - I just
lurked on rec.ponds as I'm planning one day to put a pond in the garden
again. Had to fill in my old one because of the little one. She'll be
five next year so hopefully my back will be better by then and I can get
digging (can't get a mechanical digger round the back so it'll have to
be by hand).

(Also lost all my favourites on IE due to HDD failure)


Gill

[lgb]

In article >, says...
> I find the Google group thing annoying; adverts every two posts or so.
> I'm a member of a Lowden guitar Google group and have settled for taking the
> daily digest.
>
I'm on several Yahoo groups and I get individual emails. Since they're
all moderated, it's very seldom that any spam creeps in. And with the
emails (or the digest) the only ads you get are a few lines at the
bottom of each email - easily ignored.

And, FWIW, I've heard that even Yahoo's web interface doesn't present
quite as many ads as Google - but I don't know that for sure.

--
BNSF = Build Now, Seep Forever

[Will]

Hey all,

I get my posts from the group through a different source so I get all
of the code speak for email & the like. This is NOT Elaine T.

W.R.


bassett wrote:
> Might be the Full Moon, or PMT . Nurrrrrr, She's just letting of a bit of
> steam.
>
> bassett
>
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> .> temper temper, I've never seen this side of you Elaine ;~)
> > --
> > www.NetMax.tk.
>
> > "Elaine T" > wrote in message
> > . ..
> >> creationsNmotion wrote:
> >>> why not just get a spitoon and throw your $ in there.
> >>> YES you need a quarentine tank. unless you like getting attached to
> >>> fish then bringing in some bug you cannot see thats in the belly of a
> >>> new fish and in a few days your favorite fish is floating ass end up
> >>> and your ****ed off. gawd they let any punkass post on here i guess
> >>>
> >> Yep. Including punkasses like you. <plonk>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Elaine T
> >
> >
>
> >
> >

[Elaine T]

Will wrote:
> Hey all,
>
> I get my posts from the group through a different source so I get all
> of the code speak for email & the like. This is NOT Elaine T.
>
> W.R.
>
Sure it is. Don't you ever get tired of profane, abusive people? I'm
not afraid to use my killfile and not afraid to remind folks that they
don't have to read everything that hits their newsreader.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com