betta ponderings

[m]

*disclaimer: I have very little experience with bettas short of keeping
a male one in a fish bowl. I also have no intentions on trying this, so
don't get all worked up. I'm just wondering.*

My previous post was asking about female bettas, and I've been sitting
here at work with nothing to do except think about how great bettas are
and how I wish I could fill a tank full of them.

Then I started to wonder....

Why CANT we do that? It's not like bettas are the only territorial fish
we have in the hobby... why can't the same techniques used for keeping
agressive cichlids together be used with bettas? Wouldn't it be
possible to keep male and female bettas together in an overstocked,
highly planted/caved tank? Wouldn't the agression be spread out and
maybe, just maybe things would be ok?

The only reasons I can think of for this approach not working (and
these are just me basically saying random things that may or may not be
way off) are:
-Maybe bettas are more delicate than cichlids? I suppose that generally
they're not as big and tough looking, but then it's still a level
playing field. It seems to me pretty unlikely that they could do a lot
of damage to another fish if they couldn't take quite a bit of damage
too.
-Maybe it's the fins. Maybe the long fins get nipped up too easily and
infections would abound. This seems a lot more likely to me than the
first point. Still, if the water quality is good then there shouldn't
be too much trouble for the fins to heal.
-Maybe they're too messy to overstock a tank with? This seems pretty
unlikely to me... if that were true then I don't think people would
very much like them being in small tanks.
-Maybe they're not very smart and would refuse to run off and heal up
after a fight? Again, this seems like one of the more likely reasons to
me.

So does anyone have any thoughts on this? I know bettas are a lot of
peoples favorite fish (I'm starting to feel that way myself) so I'm
sure that somewhere, some time, SOMEONE tried something like this, but
I don't know. It would be really cool if it worked, but I think it
would be too much of a risk for a normal person to try.

-m

[NetMax]

"m" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> *disclaimer: I have very little experience with bettas short of keeping
> a male one in a fish bowl. I also have no intentions on trying this, so
> don't get all worked up. I'm just wondering.*
>
> My previous post was asking about female bettas, and I've been sitting
> here at work with nothing to do except think about how great bettas are
> and how I wish I could fill a tank full of them.
>
> Then I started to wonder....
>
> Why CANT we do that? It's not like bettas are the only territorial fish
> we have in the hobby... why can't the same techniques used for keeping
> agressive cichlids together be used with bettas? Wouldn't it be
> possible to keep male and female bettas together in an overstocked,
> highly planted/caved tank? Wouldn't the agression be spread out and
> maybe, just maybe things would be ok?
>
> The only reasons I can think of for this approach not working (and
> these are just me basically saying random things that may or may not be
> way off) are:
> -Maybe bettas are more delicate than cichlids? I suppose that generally
> they're not as big and tough looking, but then it's still a level
> playing field. It seems to me pretty unlikely that they could do a lot
> of damage to another fish if they couldn't take quite a bit of damage
> too.
> -Maybe it's the fins. Maybe the long fins get nipped up too easily and
> infections would abound. This seems a lot more likely to me than the
> first point. Still, if the water quality is good then there shouldn't
> be too much trouble for the fins to heal.
> -Maybe they're too messy to overstock a tank with? This seems pretty
> unlikely to me... if that were true then I don't think people would
> very much like them being in small tanks.
> -Maybe they're not very smart and would refuse to run off and heal up
> after a fight? Again, this seems like one of the more likely reasons to
> me.
>
> So does anyone have any thoughts on this? I know bettas are a lot of
> peoples favorite fish (I'm starting to feel that way myself) so I'm
> sure that somewhere, some time, SOMEONE tried something like this, but
> I don't know. It would be really cool if it worked, but I think it
> would be too much of a risk for a normal person to try.
>
> -m


The question is whether multiple males can be kept in a single tank. I
don't have any experience with this, but I imagine that if it could be made
to work (which I doubt), then you would have a lot of males with torn fins.
This would probably not cause any health issues (with healthy fish in clean
water) but it would be very unattractive to look at.

Territorial cichlids which are able to do serious damage tend to have sorter
fins and I think more hard rays. The nature of their contest is often
through pushing and pulling with the jaws, and various amounts of posturing,
with the occasional feints. It's only when the loser does not disappear
from the winner's sight that he is in danger of being killed (or he would
have been able to swim away to fight another day). There are some cichlids
such as the Leleopis which can genuinely kill a rival with a single plunge,
but most depend mostly on guile and jaw-wrestling.

I think Bettas also do a lot of posturing, flaring and circling, but then
they try to take chunks of each others fins out, so winner or loser, both
look like hell.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Beano]

yeah probably lots of torn fins - I had a tank of 5 females and one
male - turns out on of the females was a short fin variety male!
Anyway, the blue long fin male certainly got ripped up.

You'd have a tank full of ugly diseased fish.

With regards to simply having a lot of caves and plants - I had lots of
plants and caves - the fact of the matter is, with mine, the girls were
too stupid to hide half the time and suffered with the male chasing
them! The male used to hide sometimes, but the female that turned out
to be male, always found him...

[Tynk]

m wrote:
> *disclaimer: I have very little experience with bettas short of keeping
> a male one in a fish bowl. I also have no intentions on trying this, so
> don't get all worked up. I'm just wondering.*
>
> My previous post was asking about female bettas, and I've been sitting
> here at work with nothing to do except think about how great bettas are
> and how I wish I could fill a tank full of them.
>
> Then I started to wonder....
>
> Why CANT we do that? It's not like bettas are the only territorial fish
> we have in the hobby... why can't the same techniques used for keeping
> agressive cichlids together be used with bettas? Wouldn't it be
> possible to keep male and female bettas together in an overstocked,
> highly planted/caved tank? Wouldn't the agression be spread out and
> maybe, just maybe things would be ok?
>
> The only reasons I can think of for this approach not working (and
> these are just me basically saying random things that may or may not be
> way off) are:
> -Maybe bettas are more delicate than cichlids? I suppose that generally
> they're not as big and tough looking, but then it's still a level
> playing field. It seems to me pretty unlikely that they could do a lot
> of damage to another fish if they couldn't take quite a bit of damage
> too.
> -Maybe it's the fins. Maybe the long fins get nipped up too easily and
> infections would abound. This seems a lot more likely to me than the
> first point. Still, if the water quality is good then there shouldn't
> be too much trouble for the fins to heal.
> -Maybe they're too messy to overstock a tank with? This seems pretty
> unlikely to me... if that were true then I don't think people would
> very much like them being in small tanks.
> -Maybe they're not very smart and would refuse to run off and heal up
> after a fight? Again, this seems like one of the more likely reasons to
> me.
>
> So does anyone have any thoughts on this? I know bettas are a lot of
> peoples favorite fish (I'm starting to feel that way myself) so I'm
> sure that somewhere, some time, SOMEONE tried something like this, but
> I don't know. It would be really cool if it worked, but I think it
> would be too much of a risk for a normal person to try.
>
> -m

There's an old tale I heard many, many years ago, and then again when
Faith, from BETTATALK was on Animal Planet, that an experiment took
place in a large pond...big, not like a backyard one, but 2 males were
placed in it and they wouldn't leave each other alone, even though they
had the entire pond to themselves.

There have been times when males could be kept together, however, it's
extremely rare and very strict conditions must kept.
They have to be submissive (that right there is a rarity). They have to
be this way from hatching, and growing, and when after the age of
separating has past and the males in question are still not
fighting..then if you actually have siblings that are like this, they
must never, ever be separated. If they are to be moved...it must be
done together. If they are apart, it's been said that all bets are off
and they will battle.
The billion to one shot is the males that are not sibs, both overly
submissive that they do not spar.
In 30 yrs, I've had this happen once (by accident) and it only lasted a
few months.
I had a male in a 29g, and one floating in a "bettahex" until I had set
up it's own tank. He jumped out, after dumping the lid off the little
hex!
I found them on either end of the tank..no split fins. I parked my butt
down in front of the tank and just watched them.
The only time they did anything was at feeding time or trying to get my
attention. However, that was nothing more than posturing.
They were like this for 3 months until I woke up one day with them both
in shreds.
This is something I (Betta keeper for 30 yrs and breeder for 19 of
them) won't ever do again...even if I have sibs that are not fighting,
I don't keep them together. I fully believe that no matter how friendly
they get along, it's only a matter of time before they get into it.
Having talked to several other breeders that have had sibs together
have also learned that it only lasts for so long and then one day they
go at it.
It seems that no matter the territory size in a closed system (tank),
it's not enough. In the wild they don't fight to the death, the loser
simply swims off. Being a closed system, they have no where to go. This
is the problem. The loser cannot flee the other's territory and gets
constantly harrassed to the point of death from the stress,or
infections in their wounds. Rarely ever does one kill another outright.

[Tynk]

m wrote:
> *disclaimer: I have very little experience with bettas short of keeping
> a male one in a fish bowl. I also have no intentions on trying this, so
> don't get all worked up. I'm just wondering.*
>
> My previous post was asking about female bettas, and I've been sitting
> here at work with nothing to do except think about how great bettas are
> and how I wish I could fill a tank full of them.
>
> Then I started to wonder....
>
> Why CANT we do that? It's not like bettas are the only territorial fish
> we have in the hobby... why can't the same techniques used for keeping
> agressive cichlids together be used with bettas? Wouldn't it be
> possible to keep male and female bettas together in an overstocked,
> highly planted/caved tank? Wouldn't the agression be spread out and
> maybe, just maybe things would be ok?
>
> The only reasons I can think of for this approach not working (and
> these are just me basically saying random things that may or may not be
> way off) are:
> -Maybe bettas are more delicate than cichlids? I suppose that generally
> they're not as big and tough looking, but then it's still a level
> playing field. It seems to me pretty unlikely that they could do a lot
> of damage to another fish if they couldn't take quite a bit of damage
> too.
> -Maybe it's the fins. Maybe the long fins get nipped up too easily and
> infections would abound. This seems a lot more likely to me than the
> first point. Still, if the water quality is good then there shouldn't
> be too much trouble for the fins to heal.
> -Maybe they're too messy to overstock a tank with? This seems pretty
> unlikely to me... if that were true then I don't think people would
> very much like them being in small tanks.
> -Maybe they're not very smart and would refuse to run off and heal up
> after a fight? Again, this seems like one of the more likely reasons to
> me.
>
> So does anyone have any thoughts on this? I know bettas are a lot of
> peoples favorite fish (I'm starting to feel that way myself) so I'm
> sure that somewhere, some time, SOMEONE tried something like this, but
> I don't know. It would be really cool if it worked, but I think it
> would be too much of a risk for a normal person to try.
>
> -m

There's an old tale I heard many, many years ago, and then again when
Faith, from BETTATALK was on Animal Planet, that an experiment took
place in a large pond...big, not like a backyard one, but 2 males were
placed in it and they wouldn't leave each other alone, even though they
had the entire pond to themselves.

There have been times when males could be kept together, however, it's
extremely rare and very strict conditions must kept.
They have to be submissive (that right there is a rarity). They have to
be this way from hatching, and growing, and when after the age of
separating has past and the males in question are still not
fighting..then if you actually have siblings that are like this, they
must never, ever be separated. If they are to be moved...it must be
done together. If they are apart, it's been said that all bets are off
and they will battle.
The billion to one shot is the males that are not sibs, both overly
submissive that they do not spar.
In 30 yrs, I've had this happen once (by accident) and it only lasted a
few months.
I had a male in a 29g, and one floating in a "bettahex" until I had set
up it's own tank. He jumped out, after dumping the lid off the little
hex!
I found them on either end of the tank..no split fins. I parked my butt
down in front of the tank and just watched them.
The only time they did anything was at feeding time or trying to get my
attention. However, that was nothing more than posturing.
They were like this for 3 months until I woke up one day with them both
in shreds.
This is something I (Betta keeper for 30 yrs and breeder for 19 of
them) won't ever do again...even if I have sibs that are not fighting,
I don't keep them together. I fully believe that no matter how friendly
they get along, it's only a matter of time before they get into it.
Having talked to several other breeders that have had sibs together
have also learned that it only lasts for so long and then one day they
go at it.
It seems that no matter the territory size in a closed system (tank),
it's not enough. In the wild they don't fight to the death, the loser
simply swims off. Being a closed system, they have no where to go. This
is the problem. The loser cannot flee the other's territory and gets
constantly harrassed to the point of death from the stress,or
infections in their wounds. Rarely ever does one kill another outright.

[IDzine01]

>the girls were
>too stupid to hide half the time

Hey, these are female Bettas we're talking about... they were too PROUD
to hide. ;-)

[Tynk]

IDzine01 wrote:
> >the girls were
> >too stupid to hide half the time
>


> Hey, these are female Bettas we're talking about... they were too PROUD
> to hide. ;-)

Hehe, that's for sure.
Females don't tend hide all the time. They are out and about, covering
the entire tank, no matter how large it is (same with males).
New females may tend to hide, but as they get more comfortable with
their surroundings, color back up (most when new will show submission
coloring (blanched out color with horizontal barring), but quickly
color up.
If you have several females and some simply don't color back up when
settled in and are in good health, nothing to worry about as they're
showing the ladies above them that they're no threat to their place in
the hierarchy.
It's also easy to learn their "language" (body language). Just what
them and how they interact with each other. Who is doing posturing to
whom, and who always never backs down (that would be the alpha), all
the way down to the omega, the lowest on the totum pole who may get
chased, but shouldn't show damage. I like to keep a close eye on that
one, and make sure she's not overly stressed out.